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View Full Version : ATC Staff Shortage set to bite


Nomorecrap
23rd Aug 2005, 12:06
A little birdy tells me that ATC staff are going to stop working on their days off from next week.

Some impact expected at the major cities.

Apparently constant overtime is all that has been keeping the airspace open for quite some time.

Funny - I thought I read about Airservices getting an International Award for being the best ANSP.

Maybe they meant the best for their profits!

Capn Bloggs
23rd Aug 2005, 22:09
Looking forward to Tobzalp chomping into Uncommonsense...

Was that the biting you meant??

Y0DA
23rd Aug 2005, 22:11
TIBA procedures took place north of Sydney yesterday afternoon due to staff shortage and noone coming in on their (scarce) day off.

KeepItRolling
24th Aug 2005, 01:28
TIBA procedures took place north of Sydney yesterday afternoon due to staff shortage and noone coming in on their (scarce) day off.

Expect to see more of it I suspect and possibly a tower or two closing in the middle of the night.

ASA management would rather run a constsant overtime line than put on more staff ( and the current recruitment will barely cover retirements in the next 5 years) and never mind about Fatigue Management, Balance of Work and Family etc.

Beer Can Dreaming
24th Aug 2005, 01:45
Sounds like perfect justification for a pay rise fellas.

Low supply and high demand = a deserved salary increase.

Uncommon Sense
24th Aug 2005, 01:53
Yes, I have also heard the rumours.

But I would be interested to see how it gets 'spun' by the media/pr types, considering the rumour is that people just want to have their days off.

What will be more interesting is when the protected period for the new Certified Agreement commences in late October. The way things have been going, one can only wonder.

karrank
24th Aug 2005, 12:38
Heard about a couple of guys in Melbourne who arranged a golf day many moons ago. One rang in sick to be there, but the other took the emergency duty so wasn't there anyhow. Much gnashing of teeth.

Cryptic, anonymus message in my inbox at work about this today. Can it triumph over greed/diligence as shown above? Can it compare to the national day of inaction of last 25NOV???

I have not had a day off without a phone call for 3 weeks.

OhForSure
24th Aug 2005, 13:03
I know of a couple of great guys who were just turned down for the ATC role... shame really. Are they too fussy or are there not enough GOOD applicants? What's the pay like in comparison to the rest of the western world? (PM's welcome).

Cheers.

tobzalp
24th Aug 2005, 22:15
I had a few days off with the flu recently an was actually called to come in as a morning shift to be relief for the night shift that I was actually sick for.:* There was even a recent instance of someone getting stood down due to a naughty type thing then stood up then sent home early to be able to come back 8 hours later to cover an unfillable night shift. It may be $65 an hour for normal time but when you never get days off you can't spend it.

Uncommon Sense
24th Aug 2005, 23:21
Kaptin,

perhaps your right - because what you wrote is in print and on the interent, somebody might actually believe it!

9Ws
25th Aug 2005, 09:25
Pay and conditions are certainly not in line with the rest of the world. But despite that, I know a controller from overseas (with all the requirements, Oz Residency etc. and 10 years experience, 5 years enroute-radar too) who wanted to join Airservices last year. Went thru the application and interview stages and was finally turned down.

Shortage of controllers, slow training... but still reject an experienced controller who only needed the "Short Course" to start work? Hmmm, doesn't add up.

Anyone in the know of the current situation for controllers with prior experience from overseas?

tobzalp
25th Aug 2005, 09:35
I think that unfortunately when it comes to hiring in AsA, the KPIs are king. People get bonuses through the normal route of hiring and they will not stray from it even though the experience base is getting less and less and a few experienced controllers would go down very well. Typical of a company with 'business units'. Side note, we got two kiwis last year and they started on a pay scale not much above the brand new guys. As they got redundancy from their old employer, it added up the same but for anyone wanting to come from elsewhere (I know a few) they just are not going to take the massive pay cut to come and work for a bunch of c(_)nts.

blind freddy
26th Aug 2005, 03:28
According to management, Brisbane Centre is actually overstaffed!! (go figure.)

That's why they don't need controllers from O/S.
Its funny how they are overstaffed, and yet have to relly on overtime to keep things running.
I hope the place comes to a grinding halt.

On another note, I also heard that QF are asking for compensation for when airspace is TIBA. They argue, why should we pay for a service that wasn't provided.

Baileys
26th Aug 2005, 04:41
So is the required overtime because there are positions which are unstaffed because there are not enough ATC's or is it to cover people going sick etc?

An earlier post said that someone gets called up one their days off to come into work. To me that sounds like someone has gone sick at short notice.

If you get called up to come to work on days off surely you can just say "no, I am busy". If you say "yes, I'll come to work" then that is your choice and you get paid accordingly. I'm sure some people would love the extra cash.

What's the big deal...just say "no thanks" and head off to the beach.

No Further Requirements
26th Aug 2005, 04:47
Overtime is rostered, ie, they knew it was a blank shift and have offered it to all as overtime. If it does not get filled, or someone calls in sick, this shift is an ED, or Emergency Duty. That's how it works.

clearance_available
26th Aug 2005, 05:35
I too got told last year by a HR lady with the initials that resemble NH that Brisbane Centre was "overstaffed". I was on a doggo so called the controller on TOPS and when he stopped laughing he told me the truth. He in fact wanted to go to Melb centre on transfer but was unreleasable due to lack of staff. So much for being "overstaffed".

It seems though that HR for ATM are concentrating their efforts on recruiting opposition controllers (ie RAAF) for Melbourne Centre and stating that Brisbane is "not available". Disregarding experienced controllers, whether they be from overseas or the RAAF seems rediculous, but then again it doesnt seem that the college has the capability to train these people anyway, whether it be a "short" course or a normal one.

Frank_Sources
26th Aug 2005, 09:29
Baileys,

I believe the OT was to cover unplanned absences, but now it is often to cover planned absences as well - or what might be called shortfalls.

How the 'overstaffing' statement can be made? I don't have the answer.

DirtyPierre
26th Aug 2005, 09:59
There is a formula used by AsA to work out staffing requirements. This formula takes into account training, rec. leave, etc. It does not take into account sick leave or long service leave. This formula indicates that BN Centre is actually overstaffed??

When training comes up that has not been planned for, eg. Option 3 in NAS, this then means a lot of overtime to both fill controller seats and also train controllers. There is no surplus of controllers.

Also, if we go through a period of high sick leave, say in July/August, the Flu season, any surplus is quickly accounted for, and ED and Overtime is used to man consoles.

There is little, if no "fat" in ATC manning to account for such contingencies without relying on overtime or EDs.

The ATC college is also understaffed. I recently visited, and the guys there tried to shut the door and keep me there. That's how desperate they are for instructors!

BN Centre runs on the bones of it's arse. Every roster has been trimmed of any excess staff, and overtime and ED is used to fill shortfalls. Consequently, if a lot of controllers go sick at about the same time ( and this does happen from time to time), then you'll see airspace go TIBA.

ferris
27th Aug 2005, 00:06
It's true.

AsA are hanging out the "no vacancy" sign at present. Qantas might want to take that into account next time they are TIBA? It's not hard to work out whats going on when the website says there are vacancies for trainees (who will be years away from FPC), yet experienced controllers are not required.

SM4 Pirate
27th Aug 2005, 00:36
BN is over, yet has troubles filling shifts, ML is 27 under using the same formula; no wonder we are sick to death of working ot and eds.

Not so easy to say "no thanks" Baileys; we all know what it's like to be left without support at the console; last thing done is slow traffic rates; so you just cope with more traffic per head. It's sh!tful.

When you get the call at home, 'you are our last chance', often permiates the tone of the call. You also understand what it's like to be left as a single individual or two individuals when the normal number is 5 staff on duty; for a particular area.

Is this miss management or deliberate... We all know that it is cheaper to fill shifts with ot and ed than have a fulltime body sitting there just in case.

Unlike an airliner if a tech crew body doesn't front the plane doesn't go; if you have a drop out or two on the console 'team' then it's just less breaks and mulitple single sectors (freq's) combined onto one position. Of course there are 'contingency plans' but these are universally ignored, mostly because the ATCs don't know what's in them and the managers don't want to flag to higher managers about the reasons for these contingencies being enacted.

If the ATC actually make a point of not comming to work on their days off the system will be at breaking point quickly; because at present the whole structure rely's on the greedy ATC mentality of chasing the money; even if that's not the reason most give up their day off; see above about not letting mates down and pressures applied.

Baileys
27th Aug 2005, 05:02
The numbers must say otherwise. Has anyone actually seen the figures and formula used to do the staffing calculation?

I can suggest a number of ways to say 'no thanks'. Firstly just say 'no'. If you are busy - you are busy and that's it. Let the greedy ones take the money. When they get sick of it - let it go TIBA. That's why there are contingency plans. Who cares if you are the last one left to come in. I wouldn't think coercion would be endorsed. You are entitled to have a life - that is why you go to work.

If the figures say the staffing is OK and the airspace never closes it is easy to justify that everything is OK - maybe it is. There is not much EVIDENCE to say otherwise. Blame the complaining on the complaining ATC's - industry will believe it - next thing they will want a huge payrise.

The Department of Transport and major airlines would not tolerate systematic airspace closures.

If the system is as broken as people are indicating then let it show - stop holding it together at the expense of your life. Sometimes complete inaction is all it takes.

If you try inaction and everything still rolls on - good, it mustn't be that bad after all and at least you will enjoy your life.

Frank_Sources
28th Aug 2005, 06:24
Observed in the NOTAMS today:


C1791/05
ATS IN NORTH WESTERN QUEENSLAND ARE SUBJECT TO CONTINGENCY
DUE STAFF SHORTAGE
THIS SHALL AFFECT THE FLW FREQ:
FIA BRISBANE CENTRE 125.4 BIRDSVILLE
FIA BRISBANE CENTRE 122.1 LONGREACH
FIA BRISBANE CENTRE 118.8 JACKSON
FIA BRISBANE CENTRE 124.8 CHARLEVILLE
FIA BRISBANE CENTRE 122.3 EMERALD
FIA BRISBANE CENTRE 126.0 ROMA
FIA BRISBANE CENTRE 135.3 MT ALMA
FIA BRISBANE CENTRE 118.95 ST GEORGE
FIA BRISBANE CENTRE 123.9 MT MOWBULLAN
FIA BRISBANE CENTRE 125.7 MORNINGTON ISLAND
FIA BRISBANE CENTRE 118.6 NORMANTON
FIA BRISBANE CENTRE 122.4 MOUNT ISA
FIA BRISBANE CENTRE 123.95 KYNUNA
FIA BRISBANE CENTRE 119.8 CHEVIOT HILLS
ATC SER ARE NOT AVBL IN CLASS E AIRSPACE
DIRECTED TRAFFIC SER IS NOT AVBL IN CLASS G AIRSPACE
DIRECTED TRAFFIC ADVISORY INFO SER IS NOT AVBL IN CLASS E AND G
AIRSPACE
FLW PROC ADVISE:
TRAFFIC INFO BCST PROC (TIBA) AS DETAILED IN AIP GEN 3.3 AND ICAO
ANNEX 11 SHALL BE USED.
TCAS AND TRANSPONDER EQPT MUST BE SELECTED AT ALL TIMES.
IN-FLIGHT INFO, SARTIME AND EMERG ALERTING SER AVBL ON REQ FROM
FLIGHTWATCH.
PILOTS CONSIDERING OPR IN THIS AIRSPACE SHOULD CTC THE BRISBANE OPR
MANAGER BY TEL ON +61 7 3866 3224 FOR FURTHER INFO.
AIRSPACE:
YBBB/YMMM/COOPER
S26 13.3 E138 23.4 / S23 10.0 E137 00.8 / S23 10.0 E140 46.0 /
S22 08.4 E142 57.9 / S21 43.7 E143 53.7 / S21 43.5 E145 25.9 /
S22 01.3 E145 47.8 / S22 58.0 E145 52.5 / S25 50.7 E147 30.0 /
S29 08.1 E147 42.9 / S29 20.4 E146 46.7 / S29 00.0 E146 32.0 /
S29 00.0 E143 30.0 / S26 13.5 E138 23.4
VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC-FL245

YBBB/DAWSON A
S22 23.7 E147 26.3 / S22 47.5 E147 32.2 / S23 20.0 E148 00.0 /
S23 14.7 E148 51.3 / S23 36.6 E148 43.1 / S26 41.3 E151 01.9 /
S26 01.9 E151 28.4 / S25 57.1 E151 22.0 / S24 38.2 E150 20.5 /
S22 48.7 E149 09.4 / S22 52.8 E148 17.7 / S22 33.0 E147 44.8 /
S22 23.7 E147 26.3
VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC-FL180

YBBB/DAWSON B
S21 51.2 E145 35.4 / S21 26.9 E145 46.5 / S21 43.5 E146 06.9 /
S22 23.7 E147 26.3 / S22 47.5 E147 32.2 / S23 20.0 E148 00.0 /
S23 14.7 E148 51.3 / S23 36.6 E148 43.0 / S26 41.8 E151 01.9
THEN ALONG THE MINOR ARC OF A CIRCLE OF 120NM RADIUS CENTRED ON
S27 21.9 E153 08.3(BRISBANE/DME) TO S28 29.9 E151 16.5 /
S29 00.0 E149 00.0 / S29 08.1 E147 42.9 / S25 50.7 E147 30.0 /
S22 58.0 E145 52.5 / S22 01.3 E145 47.8 / S21 51.2 E145 35.4
VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC-FL245

YBBB/YMMM/BARKLY
S19 05.0 E142 50.0 / S18 17.8 E143 50.5 / S18 34.6 E144 46.1 /
THEN ALONG THE MINOR ARC OF A CIRCLE OF 120NM RAD CENTRED ON
S19 14.7 E146 45.5 (TOWNSVILLE/DME) TO S20 11.9 E144 53.6 /
S21 26.9 E145 46.5 / S21 51.2 E145 35.4 / S21 43.5 E145 25.9 /
S21 43.7 E143 53.7 / S22 08.4 E142 57.9 / S23 10.0 E140 46.3 /
S23 10.0 E137 00.8 / S22 17.8 E136 38.1 / S21 51.5 E136 22.4 /
S20 43.9 E136 14.0
VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC-FL245

YBBB/YMMM/PRAWN
S15 42.2 E137 12.9 / S15 08.6 E138 20.7 / S14 56.5 E138 52.6 /
S15 00.0 E140 00.0 / S15 30.4 E141 43.5 / S16 03.1 E143 16.7
THEN ALONG THE MINOR ARC OF A CIRCLE OF 150NM RAD CENTRED ON
S16 51.0 E145 44.6 (CAIRNS/DME) TO S16 57.9 E143 08.4 /
S18 17.8 E143 50.5 / S19 05.0 E142 50.0 / S20 01.9 E141 07.7 THEN
ALONG THE MINOR ARC OF A CIRCLE OF 100NM RAD CENTRED ON
S20 39.8 E139 29.1(MT ISA/DME) TO S19 22.5 E140 36.9 /
S19 05.4 E140 05.2 / S19 01.2 E137 40.3 / S17 20.3 E137 09.3 /
S15 42.2 E137 12.9
VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC-FL245.
SFC TO FL245
FROM 08 280600 TO 08 280830

Frank_Sources
28th Aug 2005, 08:39
Another one from today:

ATS C1792/05
ATS IN N NEW SOUTH WALES SUBJECT TO CONTINGENCY DUE STAFF SHORTAGE
AIRSPACE APRX BOUNDED BY THE POSITIONS 10E MOUNT MCQUOID,
BRISBANE/MELBOURNE FIR BOUNDARY, DONIC, 30E WILLIAMTOWN, 30E COFFS
HARBOUR, 20SW POINT LOOKOUT, 20E MOUNT SANDON, 7E SINGLETON, 10E
MOUNT MCQUOID.
BRISBANE CENTRE 132.35 BERRICO
BRISBANE CENTRE 130.1 BERRICO
BRISBANE CENTRE 125.7 MOUNT HEATON
BRISBANE CENTRE 120.55 BERRICO.
ATC SER NOT AVBL IN CLASS A, C AND E AIRSPACE.
DIRECTED TRAFFIC ADVISORY INFO SER NOT AVBL IN CLASS E AND G
AIRSPACE.
DIRECTED TRAFFIC SER NOT AVBL IN CLASS G AIRSPACE.
ADS/CPDLC LOGON YBBB SER NOT AVBL IN THIS AIRSPACE.
THE FLW PROCEDURES APPLY:
TRAFFIC INFO BCST PROCEDURES (TIBA) AS DETAILED IN AERONAUTICAL
INFORMATION PUBLICATION GEN 3.3 AND ICAO ANNEX 11 SHALL BE USED.
TCAS AND TRANSPONDER EQPT MUST BE SELECTED AT ALL TIMES.
IN-FLIGHT INFO, SARTIME AND EMERG ALERTING SERS ARE AVBL ON REQ FM
FLIGHTWATCH.
PILOTS CONSIDERING OPR IN THIS AIRSPACE SHOULD CTC THE BRISBANE OPS
MANAGER BY TELEPHONE ON +61 7 3866 3224 FOR FURTHER INFO.
LATERAL LIMITS:
S30 41.9 E152 02.3 S30 09.9 E153 38.5 S30 40.3 E153 31.8 S32 53.0
E152 26.5 S33 30.0 E151 54.5 THEN ALONG THE MINOR ARC OF A CIRCLE OF
45.0NM RADIUS CENTRED ON S33 56.6 E151 10.8 (SYDNEY/DME) TO S33 12.0
E151 19.3 S32 47.3 E151 24.2 S32 36.0 E151 23.8 S30 41.9 E152 02.3.
VERTICAL LIMITS:
FL245 - FL600.
LATERAL LIMITS:
S30 41.9 E152 02.3 S30 09.9 E153 38.5 S30 40.3 E153 31.8 S32 53.0
E152 26.5 S33 30.0 E151 54.5 THEN ALONG THE MINOR ARC OF A CIRCLE OF

45.0NM RADIUS CENTRED ON S33 56.6 E151 10.8 (SYDNEY/DME) TO S33 12.0
E151 19.3 S32 47.3 E151 24.2 S32 36.0 E151 23.8 S32 27.5 E151 06.0
S31 26.8 E151 33 .1 S30 41.9 E152 02.3.
VERTICAL LIMITS:
FL125 - F245.
LATERAL LIMITS:
S30 41.9 E152 02.3 S30 49.1 E152 20.5 S30 46.1 E152 25.2 THEN ALONG
THE MINOR ARC OF A CIRCLE OF 45.0NM RADIUS CENTRED ON S30 19.2 E153
07.0 (COFFS HARBOUR/DME) TO S31 04.2 E153 05.9 S31 09.3 E153 05.8 S31
08.1 E153 18.4 S32 53.0 E152 26.5 S32 50.1 E152 04.0 S32 40.8 E151
34.2 S32 36.0 E151 23.8 S32 27.5 E151 06.0 S31 26.8 E151 33.0 S30
41.9 E152 02.3.
VERTICAL LIMITS:
A085 - FL125.
LATERAL LIMITS:
S33 30.1 E151 54.5 THEN ALONG THE MINOR ARC OF A CIRCLE OF 45.0NM
RADIUS CENTRED ON S33 56.6 E151 10.8 (SYDNEY/DME) TO S33 14.3 E150
52.1E S32 27.5 E151 06.0 S31 26.8 E151 33.1 S30 41.9 E152 02.3 S30 49
.1 E152 20 .5 S30 40.8 E152 33.6 THEN ALONG THE MINOR ARC OF A CIRCLE
OF 36.0NM RADIUS CENTRED ON S30 19.2 E153 007.0 (COFFS HARBOUR/DME)
TO S30 55.2 E153 06.1 S31 09.3 E153 05.8 S31 08.1 E153 18.4 S32 53.0
E152 26 .5.
VERTICAL LIMITS:
SFC TO A085.

FROM 08 281300 TO 08 281830

GRAPHICAL DEPICTION OF THE AIRSPACE AVAILABLE AT
[url]HTTP://WWW.AIRSERVICESAUSTRALIA.COM/NOTAMMAPS/NDMAPA3A.PDF

tobzalp
28th Aug 2005, 11:04
Interestingly I am actually available for 4 of those frequencies and have not been called. Seems someone has dropped the ball. Too late though as I have had a wine.

Uncommon Sense
29th Aug 2005, 02:25
TIBA Watch (http://www.civilair.asn.au/tiba.htm)

gaunty
29th Aug 2005, 03:58
Crikey.com today ;

7. Unsubstantiated tips & rumours


The air traffic control system in Australia has started closing down bit by bit each day and night due to lack of qualified Air Traffic Controllers. Tonight (Sunday) airspace between Darwin, Brisbane and Mount Isa is uncontrolled, and also between Sydney and Tamworth and Coffs Harbour. Government controlled executives will not hire more controllers because their personal remuneration packages (bonuses) depend upon reducing overheads (staff). The few new controllers that have been employed are too few, too late. The crisis we all expected and warned of has started this weekend

Frank_Sources
29th Aug 2005, 04:49
From AirServices AIS/MET today:

ATS C2330/05
DIRECTED TRAFFIC INFORMATION, RADAR ADVISORY AND SAR ALERTING
SERVICES WITHIN THE FOLLOWING CLASS G AIRSPACE MAY BE RESTRICTED
KEY POINTS AERODROMES AFFECTED: BALLIDU, BARROW IS, CARNARVON,
GERALDTON, KARRATHA, KALGOORLIE, LEONORA, LEARMONTH, LEINSTER,
LAVERTON, MEEKATHARRA, MOUNT KEITH, MOUNT MAGNET, NEWMAN, ONSLOW,
PARABURDOO, PORT HEDLAND, TELFER, WILUNA
DUE STAFF SHORTAGE

YMMM/MENZIES
YMMM/NEWMAN
YMMM/YALGOO
LATERAL LIMITS:
S26 50.5 E112 14.1, S27 45.0 E112 22.5, S30 00.0 E112 43.9, S29 59.4
E115 33.8,S30 38.8 E115 35.5, THEN ALONG THE MINOR ARC OF A CIRCLE OF
80.0 NM RADIUS CENTRED ON S31 56.7 E115 57.6 (PH/DME) TO S31 08.2
E117 12.1,S29 38.8 E119 23.6, S30 09.8 E120 00.0, S31 43.1 E120 00.0,
S31 27.2 E121 23.9,S31 16.0 E123 32.0, S28 03.8 E124 13.9, S26 35.3
E121 59.1, S26 00.0 E122 25.1,
S26 00.0 E122 25.1, S24 50.0 E123 15.9, S23 26.5 E124 14.9, S20 15.6
E121 13.5,S18 58.0 E120 03.0, S17 52.8 E118 21.6, THEN ALONG THE
MINOR ARC OF A CIRCLE OF 150.0 NM RADIUS CENTRED ON S20 22.6 E118
37.2 (PD/DME) TO S19 34.4 E116 06.4, S19 30.6 E113 31.4, S21 50.0
E111 30.0, S23 32.3 E111 44.6,
S26 27.9 E112 10.6, S26 50.5 E112 14.1

VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC - BASE OF CTA.

FREQUENCIES: 118.4, 118.6, 118.95, 121.2, 122.1, 122.4, 122.6, 123.4,
124.8, 125.7, 125.9.

CLASS G PROCEDURES APPLY, BROADCASTS ARE TO BE MADE ON AREA VHF, MBZ
AND CTAF FREQUENCIES, AS APPLICABLE AND PUBLISHED IN ERC/ERSA.
ACFT SUBJECT TO EMERG CONDITIONS SHOULD BROADCAST ON THE PUBLISHED
AREA FREQUENCY AND IF NO RESPONSE FROM CENTRE ON THE APPLICABLE AREA
FREQUENCY ATTEMPT TO CONTACT CENTRE ON CONTROL FREQUENCIES OR
FLIGHTWATCH ON FLIGHTWATCH FREQUENCIES (HF 3461, 6565, 8822, VHF
124.15 PD AREA).
FLIGHTWATCH, SARTIME NOMINATION/CANCELLATION IS AVAILABLE ON
PUBLISHED FLIGHTWATCH FREQUENCIES.
PICTORIAL AVAILABLE AVFAX CODE 81523

FROM 08 290800 TO 08 291100

Dehavillanddriver
29th Aug 2005, 05:26
The funny thing is that my wife who was a radar and procedural FPC with OJTI can't even get a look in.

She took redundancy a few years ago and wouldn't mind going back now she has had our babies and they are not even remotely interested.

She had 11 years on the job and was never suspended - go figure!

DirtyPierre
29th Aug 2005, 06:24
DHC Driver, the problem with your missus, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, is that in the past 5 years the equipment, procedures and documents have all changed significantly, and she is out of date.

The training sectrion of AsA advise that to train even an experienced controller like your wife, who has been out of the job for 5 years or more, will take about the same time as training an ab-initio controller. That is, 12 - 18 months.

The training for the new equipment alone (TAAATS) would take about a month. Any new rating takes 6 - 12 weeks. This is on top of any revision she'd have to do for being out of the job for so long.

However, it is most iritating that AsA doesn't have an "experienced controller" program. Controllers like your wife, who have been out of the job for a period, and want to come back in, must be better than any newbie simply because they have a track record. They have already proved they can do the job. There is far less of a gamble that they will not re-rate as a controller.

I would suggest your wife contact the centre managers in each centre if she really wants to do ATC again. Greg Hood in ML is crying out for staff.

Binoculars
29th Aug 2005, 07:08
....wouldn't mind going back now she has had our babies and they are not even remotely interested.

Oh, how sharper than a serpent's tooth is an ungrateful child....:{

(Sorry, DHC, couldn't resist!)

Super Cecil
29th Aug 2005, 07:12
There is always the option to leave, I'm sure a highly skilled talented bunch of blokes could walk into employment anywhere else immediately.

What was the outcome a couple of years ago in the states? Ronnie Raygun got rid of the whingers.

tobzalp and uncommon, on another thread you blokes were having a go at people questioning the status quo, you should take your own advice.

Uncommon Sense
29th Aug 2005, 07:16
If I in anyway comprehended your point I would respond.

Therefore:



.

Capn Bloggs
29th Aug 2005, 07:36
Bloody kids. Calling the shots and they haven't even started kindy. Outrageous!

En-Rooter
29th Aug 2005, 12:28
Our favourite SUPER MORON is back with absolutely no point but plenty of bitter and twisted moaning. Replaced those spars in that fictitional aircraft of yours yet? I'll dob you in you bastard if you haven't.

king oath
30th Aug 2005, 03:33
If someone higher up the food chain told the so called "managers" to do some shifts at the coal face, they might determine that the "overstaffing" was not working out too well.

I wonder whether their priority would be the bonus, or doing doggos while the workers were at home.

No Further Requirements
30th Aug 2005, 05:50
Ah, management bonuses. What happens when the system is running well and as efficiently as possible? We get to start sacking the managers? :}

Cheers,

NFR.

Super Cecil
31st Aug 2005, 02:48
Mature and thoughtful replies as usual boys.

If disaster ensuses from the "Understaffing" who is going to be responsible?

The bosses for sending overworked (your spin) people to work?

The workers for going to work tired and fatigued?

Duty of care being the all consuming thing it is nowdays, who is going to wear the blame?

Surely if you know your fatigued and stressed aren't you breaching your duty of care if you go to work?

In all seriousness if something does happen the boys at the bottom are the only ones who will take the blame.

The choices are straightforward, if your tired don't go to work
if the stress and overworking persist, change careers.

What good is earning big bucks if your not around to spend them.

tobzalp
31st Aug 2005, 11:57
Seriously people, just add Super Cecil to your ignore list. He/she is just the most recent of the AOPA sacrificial lambs on this site. The others all post non stop about how they do not read it on another. If there was ever a group of people that should stick to other things it is them.


I have been off from work for 36 hours and no calls. This pleases me.

Super Cecil
31st Aug 2005, 11:57
"If you don't like the way CASA and DOTARS etc run aviation, GET OUT OF IT."

Owen Stanley or En-Rooter or Uncommon Sense or whoever your calling yourself at the moment, If you don't like your job, get out, nobodys holding a gun to your head.

Take your own advice, stop whinging.

tobzalp
31st Aug 2005, 12:13
See what I mean? Thanks for the help Super Cecil.

Uncommon Sense
31st Aug 2005, 12:14
Surely if you know your fatigued and stressed aren't you breaching your duty of care if you go to work?

Uh, yeah.

I think that was kind of the point being made.

tobzalp
31st Aug 2005, 12:17
Like if you got a bag and put four hammers in it you would be all like 'damn that bag is smart like super cecil' I would think.

En-Rooter
31st Aug 2005, 21:55
Cecpit,

I am him and he is me ;) I am a few others as well, I think you will find that my aliases take up about 43% of prune membership.

Once again, you are out of your depth, do you understand the issues here? Good Lord, I'm falling into his trap, what a stupid question?

Super Cecpit, you're next stupid statement please? Really, you are making a fool of yourself.

Uncommon Sense
1st Sep 2005, 01:08
Thread on Further Airspace Closures Today:

Link (http://www.civilair.asn.au/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gendis;action=display;num=1125210489)

karrank
1st Sep 2005, 03:18
Hello DHC Driver and please pass on my felicitations to The Missus.

The drones who are telling her she is unemployable are talking complete crap, it is just policy they don't do short courses any more. She passed one once, I'm sure she could do it again. I think the drones are convinced nobody is employable now if they are over 20 and don't have a degree.

To claim that anybody who hasn't seen a console in 5 years is unemployable is crap also, if true some of the instructors should hang their heads and head off (back) to retirement:8

I'm on leave now, after about 4 days without phone calls this dreamy feeling of well being hit me. I believe its called relaxation. Brilliant. Egad, its afternoon, time to get up.

Continental-520
1st Sep 2005, 10:30
Heard on ABC radio today that a QF jet had to hold "over Canberra" because the duty controller had supposedly "slept in".

If it's true, I feel for you mate. I hope you come out of it with a second chance. As if nobody else has ever overslept before.

Sleep is very underrated in this day and age.

I wouldn't have thought that the previous duty controller would've left the building unattended though, knowing that there was no one to talk on the radio. Seems odd.

Anyone got any insight to offer on this one?


520

Nuckinfuts
1st Sep 2005, 10:41
Canberra tower is not staffed 24hrs. The morning shift opens the tower.

The aerodrome would have been 'open'. I believe the pilot could have landed if he wanted too - it was probably a company requirement not to land without ATC.

willadvise
1st Sep 2005, 11:19
The S about hit the F.
Tops East closed for 2 hours tonight. Tops West down to 1 Staff class E closed. DTI closed. Apparently no one available at all for doggo on Fri Night. Expect all Flex tracks through West Proc or through Tops East.

TIBA Watch (http://www.civilair.asn.au/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gendis;action=display;num=1125210489)

hadagutful
1st Sep 2005, 12:27
I heard this on ABC radio also, an RPT with fare paying pax in a holding pattern for 20 mins burning costly fuel over Canberra in the early hours of the morning !!

Find this hard to believe, surely it could operate MBZ procedures on 118.7. They do at other airports outside TWR HRs.
Any reasons for a problem here?

Uncommon Sense
1st Sep 2005, 12:33
suggest a merge with the 'MBZ' thread - same thing.

Binoculars
1st Sep 2005, 13:23
To claim that anybody who hasn't seen a console in 5 years is unemployable is crap also, if true some of the instructors should hang their heads and head off (back) to retirement

Hmmm. That's a bit close to the truth for comfort, karrank.

Most of us who have been in the field for longer than ten minutes remember the laughable University of Tasmania degrees or diplomas or whatever the hell they were. Loads of students coming out with "tertiary" qualifications, well versed in middle management techniques and IT, but when they got to the field a disconcerting proportion were found not to be able to control an aircraft as long as their bums pointed to the ground.

It was always better in the old days, of course. I remember the stories of the old timers being thrown into a procedural tower, told "that's north, now get on with it". All slightly enhanced with time, of course, but not totally removed from the truth.

Now trainees have 87 volumes of training manuals and paperwork to fill in before they can answer the phone. Unfortunately none of those volumes tells them how to answer the phone. :hmm:

If you can do the bloody job you can do it, if you can't you can't. If DHC's missus has held a rating in the past she can do it again. Everything else is politics.

I suspect the same "cover your arse" mentality is at work in the airlines. Any old TAA/Ansett drivers remember being asked to turn base south of the Pioneer river into Mackay? Never a problem. Now a close base means four miles, and never below 1500ft.

Somebody bring me the bloody grumpy old man pills, please.

NURSE!!!!!!!

DirtyPierre
1st Sep 2005, 22:08
Karrank, you must have been in the ATC college some time ago. I visited the guys there 2 weeks ago, and all the instructors I spoke to were all online controllers seconded to the college for 2 years. Only 1 of these was anywhere near retirement.

Freedom7
2nd Sep 2005, 01:15
Dirty Pierre,

You did not speak to "all" instructors.............

Nomorecrap
2nd Sep 2005, 02:01
And On it goes.. (http://www.civilair.asn.au/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gendis;action=display;num=1125210489)

clearance_available
2nd Sep 2005, 06:15
"I visited the guys there 2 weeks ago, and all the instructors I spoke to were all online controllers seconded to the college for 2 years. Only 1 of these was anywhere near retirement."

That was probably because the majority of the instructors were out the back having their afternoon nap due to old age!

I visited the College early this year and at that stage they only had a couple of seconded controllers there. One left after only 6 months (due to frustration). Another who was there said that in his first 6 months he tried to introduce new things to bring the College up to date but got beaten down by the older guys. He now just goes with the flow until his time is up.

But as you have been there more recently, hopefully I am wrong and things have changed. Those poor ab-initio's need to be taught current ways, not some rule that was used 20 years ago when the instructor last controlled a real aircraft.

Binoculars
2nd Sep 2005, 08:01
And here I was wondering whether I should volunteer my services as an instructor for my last couple of years in the job. It appears my age would prevent me from imparting any knowledge. :(

SM4 Pirate
2nd Sep 2005, 10:33
Don't be so sensitive Bino's; I think you'd be a real asset in your twilight years.

The biggest problem with the college over the last 5 years; is the 'retirement crew' dusting off the headsets... This isn't current staff seeing out there days at the college; it's been some crusty old blokes who had given up the gig 5-10 years earlier coming back for another go. But they are cheaper than FPCs you know.

There also has been that little matter of every applicant, being failed to be released from ops duties when selected.

Some of the old blokes (they are all great blokes by the way) have been multi-tasking; i.e. ex SNR TWRs (5 years past) teaching Enroute, where they hadden 'trod the boards' in over 20 years. One was heard to say, where are the strips?

Have been some current bods there in recent times, mostly all from the North; not that there's anything wrong with that.

malroy
3rd Sep 2005, 05:08
there was an ad for new college instructors on Friday 2/9/05. From memory they were looking for at least five years experience and no more than five years since last operational, but check for yourself. At least if you were an instructor fatigue management would be less of an issue ;)

No Further Requirements
3rd Sep 2005, 10:34
At least if you were an instructor fatigue management would be less of an issue

I don't know about that.....I remember waking some of the old boys up in the sim after they had been 'instructing' me. :zzz:

Cheers,

NFR.

Frank_Sources
3rd Sep 2005, 12:00
Anyway, back to the - ahem - topic:

Noservices from Airservices tonight:

http://www.civilair.asn.au/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gendis;action=display;num=1125210489

boree3
12th Sep 2005, 05:55
Latest rumour doing the rounds when a little short on ocean the other night? Call in an ex-ocean controller ( 3 yrs ex ) and get him to look over the shoulder of a very junior controller who would be doing his 2nd. shift as a rated controller.

Let me know if you run short in Mel. i did sectors there 15 years ago but i`m sure not that much has changed has it?

DirtyPierre
12th Sep 2005, 12:49
Contracts!! AAARGH!

We are currently negotiating our CA (certified agreement). We cannot take industrial action until the protected bargaining period. This begins on expiry of the current CA, in October.

The current TIBA occurences are really due to a shortfall of staff, fatigue management constraints, and the recent bouts of flu like viruses that are doing the rounds in Brisbane at the moment. We have enough ATCs to do the job as long as not too many controllers get sick at the same time.

Nomorecrap
15th Sep 2005, 21:16
So how does this worK? What is 'A' and 'B'? If there is someone to answer the phone and give me an approval why isn't that person working the traffic instead?

What is going on?


PRD C0289/05
TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA ACT
CLASS C AIRSPACE RECLASSIFIED TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA
WITHIN THE FOLLOWING AREA DUE TO STAFF SHORTAGE:
BRISBANE APPROACH 123.5

YBBB/BRISBANE APPROACH GOLD COAST A
YBBB/BRISBANE APPROACH GOLD COAST B

CLASS C AIRSPACE WI 15NM RADIUS OF S28 10.1 E153 30.2 (CG/DME)

PILOTS CAN OBTAIN CLEARANCES TO OPERATE WI TEMPO RESTRICTED AIRSPACE
ON LAST ATS FREQ PRIOR TO ENTRY. MANDATORY BROADCAST PROCEDURES APPLY
ON 123.5 AIP GEN 3.3 REFERS. NONSCHED FLTS SHOULD PLAN TO AVOID THIS
AIRSPACE DURING ACT TIMES.

CONTROLLING AUTHORITY BRISBANE OPERATIONS MANAGER 07 38663224
OR 07 38663421.
1500FT AMSL TO 3500FT AMSL
FROM 09 152100 TO 09 160000
0509152100 TO 0509152130 0509152330 TO 0509160000

DirtyPierre
15th Sep 2005, 22:36
If there is someone to answer the phone and give me an approval why isn't that person working the traffic instead?
Because that person is not rated to work that sector of airspace. In fact both those numbers give you the admin staff who assists the Ops Manager for the centre. She is not even a controller. She puts you on to the relevant supervisor for your enquiry.

The reason for the temp. restricted airspace is because there is only one controller to control Gold Coast approach airspace for the morning, and his breaks are notamed. This is due unavailablitity of staff.

Every sector of airspace requires a controller to have an endorsement to work that airspace. Just like pilots are required to hold endorsements for different aircraft.

willadvise
15th Sep 2005, 23:37
Nomorecrap
YBBB/BRISBANE APPROACH GOLD COAST A
YBBB/BRISBANE APPROACH GOLD COAST B

are the official sector names as described in the designated airspace handbook (DAH) (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/publications/current/dah/10atchl.pdf) (page 2)

tobzalp
16th Sep 2005, 00:17
This staffing is getting to be a joke. Airservices must do something about it as their slash and burn is becoming exposed as there is just no staff to work the sectors. The Oceanic Sectors including the airspace of other countries has been in a TIBA situation 3 times in the last week I wonder how long until the contracts on the provision of services there are reviewed/cancelled.

Why has a media outlet not got a hold of this. A Telstralike government organisation not providing the services. The public has a very low tolerance for unsafe things in aviation and I am certain would be interested.

gaunty
16th Sep 2005, 01:31
Whooaa steady there old fella.

Let's get back to square one.

There has been a rentless campaign by Airlines, the Govt and the tin foil cohort :rolleyes: to user pays for God knows how long and the hunt continues for cost reductions that have clearly been absent for yonks.

I don't know whether the corollary is apt or not but when one goes on a Nazi weight loss diet, apart from stripping fat it also strips muscle, sinew and skeletal material along with it. The brain being smarter than the rest of the body looks after it self, it has to or the whole thing falls apart, it is and has to be the last thing to go. Usually what happens in extremis there is a large organ failure first.

Tin Foil Leader and his mates can rant at the edges all day, but it's the airlines who control the day, comparing or attempting to, our Airservices costs with more densely populated countries is like trying to set up a Special Economic Zone at Giles.

Airservices always did and still belongs with a Government funded organisation.
To expect a private company to cost recover from a uneconomic base which refuses to recognise that if it wants First World services it has to pay for it in relation to an economic base AND not have the Sovereign risk protection that Governement enjoys is Pollyanna.

Efficient yes Government or Private, but how can you be efficient if you are structurally weak and muscle poor.

And we wont go near Tin Foil Leaders billion dollar dalliances.

I dare say were we to put a credible Business Consulting and HR firm through the place they would get a tick for business management and quality processes but a big fat zero for resourcing. There would be a recommendation to raise revenue rates to provide the resources necessary to fulfill their service obligation or and theres two chances it would happen get the Government to hand back the Capital they took out in the first place.

Y0DA
16th Sep 2005, 10:03
When the provider of Air Traffic Control in this country cannot provide services in what would I expect to be their number one priority areas there is a serious problem. A capital city TMA goes TIBA today, 15 International jets are in UNCONTROLLED airspace over the Tasman due to staff shortage at once this week, the same airspace goes down twice more, tonight all control over 1/4 of NSW is not staffed, etc, etc, wait for more.

This is disgraceful. I echo the above that Airservices must do something now. The ball has been in their court since they decided to run best case scenario rosters with absolutely no fat to cover staff illness. This is not some ASO3 position where the paper will keep piling up. Companies expect and deserve services from what is an essential service(wait for this to be dictated come Oct 25 when the ATCs walk out).

No Idea you have AsA hmm........

En-Rooter
16th Sep 2005, 10:16
Yes, an absolute joke.

And I can assure you all there is no 'official' or 'un-official' industrial action taking place to cause this, in bleak city anyway.

With a management to plonker ratio of around 3:1 makes it even more farcical.

ASA, the Telstra of the airways.

:rolleyes:

Barra Tuesday
18th Sep 2005, 17:26
Yet there are those of use who may be willing to come home and AsA are not interested in coming up with a package that makes it attractive enough. Couple of years ago I had a discussion with a HR guy and he said that he didn't see the need to recruit controller's with previous experience because AsA could train their way out of any perceived shortfall. Well that seems to be working really well!!!!

DirtyPierre
19th Sep 2005, 02:53
BT,

Worse than that. The current number of ab-initio controllers being trained will not even cover the number of staff expected to retire in 2005/6!

Given that there are also unexpected resignations every year, expect the staffing situation to get worse, not better!

tennis
19th Sep 2005, 07:43
I don't understand the psych of ASA controllers. If you don't want to work on your rostered day off - then DON'T. It's quite simple. If you do then I am guessing they are the one's not complaining.

The problem appears to be that there is more than enough controllers willing to work constant extra hours, have little in the way of a social life, give half of their earnings to the government and keep ASA management operating with a bare bones roster. This is a time bomb that will go off eventually where two airplanes will come together because of controller fatigue after working so many extra shifts he/she doesn't know what day of the week it is!

Oh yeah, and I bet somewhere in the contract it says it is the responsibility of the controller to identify and acknowledge when they are not fit for duty!

Maybe the union is too weak to handle the might of ASA upper management!!!

I do know that there are a few Aus-expat controllers in Canada that have a little black cross sitting next to there name? Don't think they will be coming home to nest anytime soon!

Hempy
19th Sep 2005, 11:08
It's hard for the union because they don't have a whole lot of clout. The only way the union and its membership can make ASA management sit up and listen is by (protected) industrial action. When this happens, Jane Citizen misses her son's wedding in Perth, and John Doe misses his mums funeral in Darwin, all because ATC's "want more money". Public opinion is bent by Mr. Dudley's media releases to this effect and the union look like red ragging rabble rousers. It's :mad: ed, but thats life

Frank_Sources
20th Sep 2005, 00:26
From the progress being made it would seem good advice not to plan any weddings (or funerals) from the 26th October on for a while.

tennis
20th Sep 2005, 02:53
Hempy,
What do you mean? The union don't have a whole lot of clout? They should?! And the majority of the controllers should be the driving force behind that clout and if they want change, they are going to have fight hard and bloody for it - it would seem. And it is my guess that the minority that appear to be undermining the necessity for change should be dragged back into line by the union to achieve those changes that are long over due. The working conditions ASA controllers are working under is a joke and a time bomb of incredibly ridiculous proportions. You should see what the union has achieved for their controllers on that little island just south east of Australia - New Zealand is what they call it. (sorry, had to make joke out of that one).

Their conditions are pretty fantastic and it wouldn't hurt for the negotiators here to get together with theirs and have a little chat. I think they need too.

ferris
20th Sep 2005, 06:21
It's hard for the union because they don't have a whole lot of clout The union has as much clout at it wants to. The union is it's members.
Public opinion is bent by Mr. Dudley's media releases to this effect and the union look like red ragging rabble rousers The union is too public-opinion sensitive. Most people in oz have been subjected to the same sort of "belt-tightening" seen at AsA, and would be pretty suppportive, IMHO. Everyone is sick of it. The rhetoric is wearing thin; just read these forums. Workers at all levels (except senior management), in all industries, have seen their T&Cs eroded, so that their CEOs can collect obscene bonuses.
I was recently delayed because of a baggage handlers dispute of some sort. Although everyone was pissed off, the sympathy was tangible.
You might be shocked how much public support you could garner.

celeritas
20th Sep 2005, 14:46
Tennis what do you mean by your last statement re- little black crosses against names. Surely AsA wouldn't be that spiteful unless people really burnt their bridges on the way out!!!

tobzalp
20th Sep 2005, 15:08
One has to admit that some bridges were at least singed when some left. One in paticular is still talked about to this day. Awsome stuff to be able to unplug, walk out, throw the ID to the guard and say 'Keep it, I won't need it again'. HUGE!

tennis
20th Sep 2005, 23:06
There are a few who have burnt bridges at home as well as abroad and believe it or not ASA are aware of them.

I'm not sure what it is exactly that drives ASA the way it does. It's an incredibly negative environment that serves no industry at all. Controllers nowadays are paid poorly in relative terms to 20 years ago against the average wage earner of today and the responsibility factor has increased significantly. They will only realise their mistakes when they come to retire. Get an accountant to do the numbers on how much in super just one percent will cost them in 20 years. Something around $250000 plus just for starters.

What I think has happened is that the controllers have become less forceful and the union just aren't up to the task. There needs to be major reform. And the minority that keep the system running for management need to be re-calibrated! Like I said before, investigate what/whothey, we consider our poorer cousins earning the pacific peso to the south east, get in the way of pay and more importantly CONDITIONS and I bet you ASA controllers would drop their jaw and lose a filling or two. If that didn't invoke an emotion then maybe ASA controllers are their own worst enemy in improving things. I wish them all the best in their efforts for this years negotiations and I hope they get what they want and hope they are after alot. And everytime the board says they won't or can't turn up to a round of negotiations, I would go to the Industrial Relations Commissioner and make them wield the big hammer. Show them they mean business - period! The ASA board aren't going to give anything away without a fight - so start fighting boys and girls!!!

Frank_Sources
21st Sep 2005, 00:15
Do Tell Tennis,

What is the package that Airways controllers are on?

DirtyPierre
21st Sep 2005, 00:43
What is the package that Airways controllers are on?
Sorry Frank, do you mean those guys from the TV show in the late 70s? Tower scenes filmed in the ATC college tower simulator in Henty House. Ken James from "Skippy" played a controller.

Frank_Sources
21st Sep 2005, 01:52
uh, no pete - Airways is the NZ equiv of ASA.

Mr. Pig
22nd Sep 2005, 03:58
tennis - please elaborate on your statements regarding Airways NZ pay and conditions. Can't say I've heard the same (or even vaguely similar) from contacts in the Land of the Long White Cloud.

tennis
22nd Sep 2005, 07:18
I'll go and chase down a contract to be current but from the contract previous, you got things like: work a public holiday you get paid double time and then get a day-in-lieu added to your leave. You get travel allowance, meal money etc on recalls. If you work a recall on a public holiday you get double time and a day-in-lieu. You get about 6 weeks annual leave as well as accumulating about 8 to 12 DILS a year which you can take just like leave or add to your leave but you get paid slightly less than annual leave. Generally a 4 on 2 off roster starting late in the afternoon and work through to morning shifts with doggos every 3rd or 4th cycle depending on job description. No more than 7.5 hours a shift and you rarely do that as it is.

I think they now get a sabbatical whereby numbers permitting you get approval to leave the company and work somewhere else for 3 to 5 years then come back and get you old job back at that same pay level. Stuff like that. And the relationship between staff and management although never perfect is a damn site better than what gets mentioned around other places. There has been alot of work behind the scenes after industrial action back in '95 - '96. Anyway it's not bad compared to alot from my sources. Can always be better though as we all know.

bekolblockage
22nd Sep 2005, 07:39
They're in for a big shock when they catch up with the real world then.

Uncommon Sense
22nd Sep 2005, 10:31
If that is all current is sounds very 'enlightened'.

What is their salary range?

If it is half decent you could expect an exodus eastwards from the ASA Sweatshop.

tennis
25th Sep 2005, 10:38
I' m not sure what you mean BELKO.....

The salary offer to experienced controllers is about 20k to 25k higher than what they offer to ASA controllers when starting off, about 80k to 85k and goes right into the 110k to 120k+. Tax is less than Oz but cost of living a little higher.

There are jobs going at the moment.

tobzalp
25th Sep 2005, 10:55
Tennis. I am in Oz. The Kiwi deal is no better than Oz when you look at the big picture. It reminds me of when people heard that the Poms were making 50000 pounds plus back when the exchange was in the 30 and thinking they got more than us even though a house cost 4 trillion pounds.

Also with the guys in the sand pit and their 80K tax free when the $US was in the 40s exchange wise. Both deals suck really. All of those extras are the same as here except the DIL if you work a p/h on top of the 2X.

Add to this that you have to live in kiwi and the deal gets worse.

Canadian deal? Been there. Same as but cold.

The real bucks are in Europe and those who have the right passport and enough anger should go. I myself am over all of it and just take their money and give absolutely nothing back.

I have done a raft of various projects over the years but no more. I just enjoy my life and that life is not working at that joint when I am not required or have other things going on. That is where I go to get cash to live my aforementioned life. The sooner people realise this, the sooner AsA realise that their goodwill is gone.

divingduck
25th Sep 2005, 17:08
Hey plazbot...

may be time to blow the dust off that pink passport old son!

Controllers in the UK working for NATS are now on about 72,000 sterling. I'll let the maths freaks multiply that by 2.5 for the right amount!

Yes I know how much housing is...yada yada yada

The real bucks for SAVING is in the Middle East.

En-Rooter
26th Sep 2005, 00:33
The real problem for Aussies coming home is the jealous little juveniles in HR. They simply can't understand why an ATC should earn more than them.

HR = the new empire builders in Airservices. One just has to see them sipping thier lattes in the canteen to see how hard they work. The green monster has got a hold of them good.


:yuk:

Jerricho
26th Sep 2005, 01:16
may be time to blow the dust off that pink passport old son!

Somthing that should only be considered if you weren't made to go back to the college in Bournemouth.

Although, a nice posting to a tower/approach unit in Scotland does have it's appeal (apart from Aberdeen.........it smells of fish). You'll not be earning 70k plus up there, but standard of living certainly is much nicer than down south.

DirtyPierre
26th Sep 2005, 02:27
Belfast Tower were advertising recently. Fancy Ireland?

tobzalp
26th Sep 2005, 08:58
Them's fightn words DP. What Country?

Jerricho
26th Sep 2005, 11:48
Fancy Ireland?

Oh DP............. you once claimed to be a man of the world :rolleyes:

AirNoServicesAustralia
26th Sep 2005, 17:46
Just as the Emeratis here refer to Israel as Occupied Palestine in the newspapers, I guess you could say Belfast is in Occupied Ireland.

Ok ready to duck some very big rocks being thrown my way.

DirtyPierre
27th Sep 2005, 01:20
Last I looked, Belfast was in Ireland. Just happensto be in the Northern part.

Now if I had said Eire, I might have been technically incorrect. ( at least that's what the Christian Brothers taught me)

Jerricho
27th Sep 2005, 13:01
OK DP.

I double dog dare you to go and stand out the front of Belfast Aldergrove Airport with a big sign that says "Belfast is in Ireland"......... you see what happens :rolleyes:

DirtyPierre
27th Sep 2005, 15:00
Jerricho, Are you insane? That's why my ancestors left the emerald isle. Get away from that religious and territory shite. (although Mrs DP still has her great uncle's Sinn Fein membership framed on the wall).

I'll not inflame or incite a riot about NI with going on about it anymore lad. To be sure, to be sure.

tobzalp
27th Sep 2005, 15:17
Well my friend Sweet Jay took me to that video arcade in town, right, and they don't speak English there, so Jay got into a fight and he's all, "Hey quit hasslin' me cuz' I don't speak French" or whatever! And then the guy said something in Paris talk, and I'm like, "Just back off!" And they're all, "Get out!" And we're like, "Make me!" It was cool.

DirtyPierre
27th Sep 2005, 15:22
Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no. It was Debra, but she's such a slag, stupid ol' cow. And....... hey are we talking British comedies here?

Jerricho
27th Sep 2005, 16:32
Jerricho, Are you insane

Yup ;)

celeritas
27th Sep 2005, 19:21
Mr Pig,

Is it true what Tennis claims re controller's wages in NZ. Seems a little too high for people just starting out. Use your art of gentle persuasion to find out!!

Barra Tuesday
27th Sep 2005, 19:26
Jerricho,
I noticed that you have changed your profile for where you are from; surely the mozzies haven't been scared of by the snow yet!!!!

Jerricho
27th Sep 2005, 21:12
Not quite mate, but there's certainly a chill in the air.

Skase Jnr
29th Sep 2005, 10:27
Celeritas,

Having been there 2 months ago on an Emirates jump seat famil that doesn't exist I can tell you first hand the highest paid controller gets paid less then Top FPC AsA including all allowances.

Upside - the OCS folks are the happiest people I have ever met in ATC. Close to the mood as an instructor in Tassie before they short staffed us.

Downside - COOOOLD. That's why a whole heap would come here (Brisvegas) tomorrow if there was a proper pay for experience program. A lovely lady there offered to house sit my waterfront pad on the Gold Coast so she didn't have to go back to Christitscoldchurch as OCS in Auckland is overstaffed.

Too good too be true,
Skase Jnr

celeritas
29th Sep 2005, 15:07
Thanks Skase;

I actually suspected that was the case - I was trying to get Mr Pig to confirm it though as he has lots of contacts in NZ. I have met a couple of controller's from New Zealand and there seems to be quite a gap in what Tennis was claiming and hearing it straight from the source. Interesting though that NZ has an experienced controller program and AsA doesn't. I guess that if AsA wants to be considered a leader in the world of ATS this might be something that they want to look at.

tennis
29th Sep 2005, 15:49
So what does top FPC earn including allowances? Guys and Gals in NZ are earning in the $120k plus area. How many off duty call -ins are your guys doing? The last round of negotiations for a new contract were a debacle and look how much money you lost. You don't even get back pay after a contract is signed.

Also the rates I mentioned previously were for experienced controllers that are/were employed on radar sectors and yes my figures are very, very accurate. I just got a hold of the latest contract which expires in 2007.

Notwithstanding, the south island sucks and so too does the southern end of the north island.

My original point was that there seems to be much less discontent between staff and management there than there is here. That's all.

Mr. Pig
30th Sep 2005, 20:21
Am delving into the pay & conditions situation at Airways NZ. Very sceptical about the figures quoted in this forum. $120K + ? That would be remarkable if true, as it appears to represent a significant percentage increase over the last 2-3 years to the total income of a well-paid terminal controller (It used to be the case that terminal controllers were paid a significantly higher base salary than those in en-route or towers).

Total income would include penal rates, o/t and OJI pay. If the figure quoted does not include these extras, then the pay increase in the latest contract has been a huge one.

Will see what can be unearthed.


Pig

Binoculars
4th Oct 2005, 12:57
Waaahhh!!!! My friend's got a plasma TV! I want one! It's not fair!!!!

divingduck
4th Oct 2005, 19:13
Hey Binos...

Don't want one of them plasma tv thingys, I just bought a 54" projection LCD, TV fabulous thing it is, it is, it is.
now I just have to get permission from her indoors to watch it!

oh yeah..on thread now, in this part of the sandpit, we are more than 30 understaff.

Quokka
5th Oct 2005, 06:55
diving duck,

...hmmm....recruiting?

;)

divingduck
5th Oct 2005, 20:08
Hey quokka,

No recruiting (well actually they are, but quietly) just a bland statement of fact.
the number I suggested is actually short of the number required.

The TV is a great new toy...works well with the surround sound infra red DVD system that it came with too.:}

TrafficTraffic
6th Oct 2005, 14:51
Plasma.......


Come across to the dark side

divingduck
6th Oct 2005, 16:27
hey TT,

Everyone knows that plasm burns out in a mere 16000 hours! The LCD projection bulb goes tits up after 10000 hours, but only cost about 200 euros to get a new one, then voila! Everything is fine and beaut again.
Your fashion accessory plasma just gets chucked out:{

Had a great time up north, who knows what santa might bring??

Frank_Sources
30th Oct 2005, 01:01
Lets get ready to ruuummble in the junnngle.

The offer on the table is an insult - especially after the management awarded themselves breathtaking bonuses - and increased their own numbers.

ATC numbers reduced - traffic increased and pay reduced.

Now they are insisting on more hours for less pay with less staff doing more overtime at a reduced overtime rate.

Well - I guess we are about to see if John Howard was right when he said it was an employees market.

Lets see if you can find hundreds of ATC's (or enough stooges) to keep the place running next week.

I am more interested in affording my kids education than your bonus for doing SFA.

contactdepartures
30th Oct 2005, 10:07
Lets see if you can find hundreds of ATC's (or enough stooges) to keep the place running next week.

time to drag out the old 2001 procedures again?? :ok:

anyone else thinking it might not be the best xmas to be flying - it looks like this will be a long drawn out process :eek:

Uncommon Sense
30th Oct 2005, 12:17
Looks like everyone has been getting some practice for it lately anyway:

TIBA Watch (Could not see Pamela Anderson or David Hasselhoff) (http://www.civilair.asn.au/tiba.htm)

Apparently the no ATC procedures that are laid down when the controllers walk out is to be run by management.

Some of them apparently even have previous ATC experience.

So you will be just fine.

Ahem.

(Forgot to mention - those TIBA's above are a result of the 'management' of staff numbers.)

(What that? Uh, yeah - same management type guys. Why do you ask?)


(Really - it will be perfectly safe. That is definitely what you will be told)

http://members.optusnet.com.au/atcfairgo/fatcats.jpg (http://shaftedatc.tk)

Philthy
1st Nov 2005, 09:51
Would someone please enlighten us Mexicans as to what went on at the recent staff-management love-ins oop north?

Everything seems now to be sweetness and light, or at least that's what we hear.

Uncommon Sense
2nd Nov 2005, 00:13
Philthy,

I think someone is trying to mislead you.

There is 'not a lot of love' in the house.

Majority see no point in having a vote - the offer should be rejected as the con it is.

That is what I am hearing.

The 'love-ins' just showed the true colours.

Booville Monroe
2nd Nov 2005, 12:49
Don't know what you've been hearing, Phil, but the love-in was hardly that. Poor old GR didn't know what hit him, and AF was simply ignored.... .yes Jay Peterman you fill us with trust

Things are tense in Brisvegas, there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the ASA offer and a solid minority are spoiling for a fight. Don't know about the comfortable majority.

What's going on down there? I understood that you guys were even more shortstaffed than us, but I see no TIBAs or the like. Is it the Hoody factor? No way anyone in BN will go the extra mile for the SAM.

BM

ThrillHouse
2nd Nov 2005, 13:26
Philthy. Where I work there was a traffic management NOTAM yesterday and a TIBA NOTAM last Tuesday both due staff shortage. Looks like Monday will be TIBA also. Far from all hugs and kisses. Unfortunately there are some who complain about the staffing but take the EDs. Own worst enemies the greedy mob.

bushy
3rd Nov 2005, 06:13
TIBA is high level NAS isn't it?

DirtyPierre
3rd Nov 2005, 08:28
bushy,

Not even close.

BTW, BN approach went very close to having some sort of TIBA airspace tomorrow. Luckily some accomodating staff have shuffled their shifts around to man the consoles (including one of the current supervisors).

contactdepartures
3rd Nov 2005, 10:10
DP - do you think BN TMA will go TIBA sometime within the next week? after a few ED's people will be getting bored i imagine

DirtyPierre
3rd Nov 2005, 11:41
Single man doggo on approach in BN tonight. They may have to go TIBA for a short time so the approach guy can just go and have a slash.

Nomorecrap
3rd Nov 2005, 12:11
As long as the 'apologists' keep taking the ED's they will string the place together - whilst their colleagues bide their time.

There sure are some rich apologists around at the moment.

Hope they don't complain when they get shafted - all because they couldn't bare to spend their days off with their family.

Binoculars
3rd Nov 2005, 12:47
A gentle warning, people, whichever side of the fence you perceive yourself as being on. A house divided cannot stand.

The "vocal minority" in Brisbane who, we are told, are "spoiling for a fight" would do well to heed the lessons of 1989. I suggest you dismount from your high horses long enough to accept the existence of an alternative viewpoint.

ThrillHouse
3rd Nov 2005, 19:17
What view point is that?

Duff Man
3rd Nov 2005, 20:10
Binos, there's at least one large outstation that has no yay-sayers at all. Not a BN minority at all. This proposal is a total crock and anybody who votes yes either stands directly to win big (is there any party?) or doesn't believe in their own worth and is prepared to take yet another paycut.
:mad:

Binoculars
4th Nov 2005, 01:09
Gentlemen, I'm happy to accept that there is a percentage of ATC's who are loudly and viciously anti this proposal. That's fair enough. I won't attempt to quantify that number because I have no idea, except to guess fairly confidently that it is less than 100%. By itself that should tell ThrillMan that even if it's beyond his imagination, some ATC personnel think that in the overall scheme of life we are not doing badly. That,, ThrillMan, is the other viewpoint you apparently can't conceive of.

There are clearly points such as the FPC nonsense which have to be addressed. I'm not suggesting a blind capitulation to everything, rather a gentle suggestion that general pay increases at least equivalent to CPI are difficult to argue against without betraying an outraged ego, especially when you are well into the $100K bracket.

But please don't let such philosophies distract you from your rage, nor let it detract from the actual point in my previous post. Ignore it at your peril.

Nomorecrap
4th Nov 2005, 01:37
Perhaps the rage comes from dealing with comments like your Bino's?

If we were all comfortably in the 100K salaries as you infer (not unlike our friend Dudley will be spouting in the media no doubt) you might have a point.

The demographics have changed my friend. The MAJORITY of ATC now earn far less than that.

We are not ALL so comfortably close to retirement as to not want to fight for our true worth.

If the division comes from people worried about their FAS, maybe they should have been supporting the B-Scalers who now make up the numbers?

Or as you say - stop creating the Divisions.

Duff Man
4th Nov 2005, 01:50
Binos,

Almost-CPI is a pay cut

Almost-Average Weekly Earnings is a pay cut

If you are embarressed about earning over $100k then feel free to be a little philanthropic with your excess wealth. For the rest of us with a long career ahead, every percentage we lose now has an enormous impact at the end.

Regarding 89, I've head many stories, all contridictory. Perhaps you'd like to post them on the civil air site to educate the majority of controllers who've been employed in the last 16 years.
:*

Uncommon Sense
4th Nov 2005, 04:47
Considering the offer is effectivley 3% p/a (last pay increase was 1/1/05 - next after this agreement would be 1/1/09), on gross salary, which will equate to about 1.9% on average after tax.

CPI is minimum 3% (if you beleive the way they calculate it).

So let us warmly embrace this reduction in pay as reward for our productivity that the CEO and Executive base their own pornographic pay rises on?

I think not.

En-Rooter
4th Nov 2005, 05:13
Duffman,

I second your comments.

What a pathetic bunch of weak c**nts Australians have become to accept the rhetoric that the political and business liars propagate?? Since when should CPI be a measure of a payrise? And since when should making it to the 'lofty' heights of a 100k salary be the cut-off for future payrises? WTF?

Some of you apologists should get out into the real world to see what people are earning and I'm not talking about PAYG earners, I'm talking about the people who tell you they can't afford to give you a pay rise. The type that hide their income in trusts and companies etc.

Nomorecrap,

As one of the fellows that takes the 'odd' ED, I'm quite happy to start knocking them back, if and when there is a written or 'un-written' directive to do so. I've only heard on the grapevine that our Brissy colleagues have had enough. I've heard nothing down in bleak city.

To the b scalers, I wont be voting for anything less than a full FPC fix, that's my starting point, let alone the garbage that's been offered. Why would anybody accept less money for an ED, once again, WTF?

And the gutless, "remember '89 brigade". You don't have to resign your job or go on strike to achieve an end. Ever heard of work to rule? The place would be crippled if all project work stopped. The last thing ASA wants is to be embarrassed overseas by not being able to deliver.

Remember, this lot run around the globe telling all and sundry how good their staff are and what they've achieved, when they get home they tell you how dire things are. They sound like the management mob at our biggest cutomer, whinging tossers!

Grow a spine ya bastards!

Uncommon Sense
4th Nov 2005, 06:47
Enrooter

Obviously there can be no official work to rule whilst not protected.

But how anyone can be oblivious to the 'proposed' campaigns is beyond me.

How anyone can consider propping up the system whilst being 'offered' the insult sitting at the bottom of the current bag of puke is even more bewildering.

I don't think anyone in a certain Northern centre is under any doubt as to what the campaign 'should' be. Judging by the fact that it seems to be the 'same old few' spending all their days off at work is evidence enough.

They have probably effectively got themselves a 10% payrise recently over the rest of their colleagues.

How hungry of them.

Frank_Sources
4th Nov 2005, 12:17
No Avcharges tonight!

More TIBA (http://www.civilair.asn.au/tiba.htm)