German SAR UH-1 crash

[CyclicRick]

I don't know if anyone has heard about this. . .A German Air Force UH-1 was called out on an SAR mission near Hamburg but just before reaching the spot it was called back. Eye witnesses said it then entered a steep turn, pitched up nearly inverted and crashed to the ground, the main rotor seperating on the way down and landing on a VW van. All five crew were killed including Doctor and the Para-medics.. .The shock came two days later, both the pilot and the crew-chief had blood tests the result was 1,5 and 1,2 pro-mil levels of alchohol respectively, in other words p*ssed.. .How do you feel about that?

[heedm]

I know I'm speculating here, but I've seen in the past where the importance and excitement of a SAR mission causes other than rational thinking.. .. .I think it's fair to assume that it's not normal for those pilots to fly while intoxicated.. .. .What isn't fair to assume is that their intoxication caused the incident. I would not be surprised to hear that that was the case. I would not be surprised to hear that their condition prevented them from responding appropriately to some failure. I do think that they should be held responsible no matter the final outcome...drunk pilots just shouldn't be encouraged.. .. .The reason I don't want to jump to a conclusion is because if it was a problem with the helicopter rather than the crew, then it may be a fleet wide problem and other occurences can be eliminated. I've seen this before in Flight Safety investigations, a few assumptions at the beginning sway the investigator, obscuring the true cause.. .. .__________. .. .Finally (as if that's not enough), the medical crew are almost certainly not responsible for the incident, but they are responsible for their own lives. If you go on any aircraft as a passenger or crew member, make sure you can trust the crew. If they seem unprofessional, overly fatigued, incapable of the mission, etc. then get them to convince you that they're okay (ie.."Are you too tired to fly?"). If you smell alcohol on their breath, DON'T GO FLYING!

[Lu Zuckerman]

I flew as a flight engineer on several long term SAR missions (14 + hours) and the pilots had a bottle of engine smoothener in their nav kits. This was not to make them drunk but to keep them from sobering up completely. Not to excuse them but many of these pilots were WW 2 vets that had flown on submarine search patrols and convoy patrols that were both boring and very dangerous.. .. .On one flight I flew in the right hand seat on a Grumman Goose. The nickname of the pilot was Shakey. I had flown with him on many occasions and found him to be an excellent pilot but I did not know why he was called Shakey. On that flight I found out. We landed at Buffalo airport and he went into the Administration building and looked for a bar. He found it but it was closed. It was in the middle of winter and while waiting for a crew to come pick up our cargo he sobered up. Then I found out why he was called Shakey. I ended up flying the aircraft to Floyd Bennett Field in Brooklyn, NY. We stayed there for several days and just prior to leaving he hit the O club and tanked up. On our way to Philadelphia our heating system malfunctioned and it really got cold in the aircraft. Between Brooklyn and Philadelphia he sobered up again and I flew the airplane to Cleveland.. .. .Regarding the German SAR crash the alcohol content of the pilots’ blood would have most likely gone unnoticed if it happened in Bavaria where beer is considered to be a food.

[Grey Area]

"Regarding the German SAR crash the alcohol content of the pilots’ blood would have most likely gone unnoticed if it happened in Bavaria where beer is considered to be a food.". .. .Lou, sometimes you can be a crass self rightious git, this time you're just an a$$hole.

[CyclicRick]

The German Air Force stated publicly that there was "no technical defect". So there goes that theory ( if you believe it).. .We speculated aswell about a possible separation of the tail fin which also causes a pitch up movement especially in a turn ( so I was told by our chief engineer), we had to mod all our 205's because of a cracking problem at the join, apparantly the GAF didn't do the mod.. .I think they are probably trying to shove it onto the crew 100% which is easy ( they tried it with the Mul of Kintyre crash aswell which was, thank god, unsuccessful in the end) now that they had that much booze in them.. .I saw their UH-1's flying around the very next day which was a bit suspect considering the implications if there was a defect. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: Grey Area. .. .If you believe that I am insensitive to the loss of human life then you are totally wrong. I made the comment about beer being a food to point out the differences in culture between the North and South of Germany. I pointed out the pilots drinking in the US Military because it happens there as well and I assume it happens in the RAF as well as other military air arms. I have heard many stories about pilots going on Oxygen prior to a flight to clear their minds. . .. .As indicated above it might be that the German Military might be covering up a potential flaw in the helicopter. This may or may not be true but no matter what the mechanical problem is or was on that flight the fact remains that the pilot was legally under the influence and should not have been in command of that helicopter. I don’t know what the tort law is in Germany but if the pilot was in conflict with the rule governing the time between the bottle and the throttle assuming the military has such a rule then he could be held liable . I would assume the LBA has that rule for commercial pilots. If a case is brought who is the guilty party? The pilot for not following procedure or the pilots superior for allowing him to go on the flight. By sweeping a potential problem under the carpet the German military might be absolving Bell from any responsibility in the matter. The pilot exercised poor judgement and in the process may have rendered himself incapable of responding to a catastrophic failure. But then again this is pure speculation just like the posts above and must await a full investigation. One final question is if the German military is not owning up to a potential technical problem then how can they arrive at any other conclusion than pilot error.. .. .In the United States the FAA has a rule governing the time between the last drink and taking command of a commercial aircraft. This rule is broken on occasion and here is an example.. .. .A Northwest pilot and copilot were seen in an airport bar consuming alcohol an hour prior to a flight. Although they were in violation of the FAA directive they could not be arrested in Minnesota, as there were no statutes covering the offence. They allowed the two pilots to fly the airplane to I believe Chicago where the State of Illinois had such a statute and the pilots were arrested when they landed. Now, if that plane crashed and it was known that the pilots had consumed alcohol prior to the flight who would be guilty the FAA for allowing them to fly or the pilots for violation of a federal regulation.. .. .One final point, I did not see one reference to the offering of condolence to the surviving families or mourning the loss of a fellow helicopter pilot and his crew. . .. .Please note in my bio it says "Keeping crew and passenger safe".

[heedm]

Lu, attitudes towards alcohol have changed considerably over the last 30 years. While stories do come out about current abuses of alcohol and aviation (both civil and military), they are now the exception.

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: heedm. .. .Quote:. ."Lu, attitudes towards alcohol have changed considerably over the last 30 years. While stories do come out about current abuses of alcohol and aviation (both civil and military), they are now the exception".. .. .Response:. .. .What you say about pilots and alcohol being the exception may very well be true but there are other aspects of alcohol and in some cases, drug consumption that could have a direct effect on the well being of pilots, aircrew and passengers.. .. .I worked in three major airframe and appliance manufacturers in Germany and in all three there were beer dispensing machines situated throughout the respective factories and engineering spaces and nobody was counting how many bottles were consumed by the workers. In two of these facilities wine and beer was sold in the company cafeterias and again nobody monitored consumption. In one of the companies large groups of workers in different departments would go off campus for lunch and many of them consumed large volumes of Kirsch Wasser a highly potent alcoholic beverage along with many beers. These three companies were responsible for building helicopters; fighter aircraft and landing gear and control systems for commercial aircraft as well as state of the art fly by light servos.. .. .Here is an illustration closer to home. My son was the senior coordinator on two major commercial aircraft programs at the world’s largest airframe manufacturer. He was certified for ground run-up and ground taxi for these two large widebody aircraft. He was fired because he came back to work two days late from a medical leave resulting from an on the job injury. He had many colleagues that were caught drinking or being drunk on the job and many were caught consuming drugs on company property. They were sent to rehab and later returned to work and some still had the habit.. .. .Now let’s take this one step further. Supposing one of the German engineers were under the influence when they were performing a stress calculation on a critical part or one of the technicians made a manufacturing mistake and a QC man that was under the influence didn’t catch it. Or, the same for the mechanics who under the influence of alcohol or narcotics making a critical assembly error and the QC man also possibly under the influence didn’t catch the error. All of these errors could lead to a catastrophic failure leading to the loss of an aircraft or helicopter, its’ crew and all of the passengers.. .. .Engineers like myself can calculate the reliability of a piece of equipment but no matter how hard the scientists try they will never be able to solve the human reliability equation. Especially if the companies involved permit or condone the use of materials that can cloud the judgement of the workers that are entrusted to design and build systems that are both safe and reliable.. .. .Now I’ll step down from my wooden beer case.. . . . <small>[ 24 March 2002, 17:15: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]</small>

[heedm]

My apologies, Lu. I didn't realize it was a German made Bell assembled and designed by drunk Germans.. .. .Now it's all clear thank you.. .. .?????????

[CyclicRick]

The German law states Zero alchohol for any flight crew no matter how long ago that last beer was. Lu is right on one thing, beer consumption in the workplace was a common factor in Germany, especially in southern Germany, the numbers of workers who die through falling off scaffolding in the building trade is phenomenal. The first thing you see on a German building site is the empty beer bottles. Attitudes have indeed changed now and many if not all company's have stopped the sale of any type of alchohol on the premisis but the problem is still there.. .. .Lu: Condolances. .. .I think it goes without saying that we as pilots, crew and engineers feel sorrow for the loss to the families and friends, especially for those who were the victims i.e. the doctors and medics,. .but the crew?. .. .Bells made in Germany: Dornier built them under license, we still use Dornier manufactured blades on our 205's mainly because of the better quality.

[Weight and Balance]

Lu's stories about beer consumption on the job in Germany match my memories of many trips to MBB in Ottobrun and Donauworth. All the Germans would tell me they were used to it, they could handle it, etc., etc., but I saw several cases of obvious intoxication on the job that would have been grounds for immediate firing in North America.. .. .To be fair though, I never saw any flight crew drinking on the day they would be flying. The engineers were another story ....

[Roofus]

What can I say? Sad, to hear of any loss of life.. .. .Alcohol & Pilots? NO!. .. .There is no excuse for a pilot to be any where near an aircraft if he has alcohol in his system.. .. .Zero tolerance with regards to drink & drugs is a must. . .. .I'm proud of what I do. I'm aware of the responsibilities it places on my shoulders. I believe in a 24hr 'bottle to throttle'. Anything less would be irresponsible & unprofessional!. .. .I'll climb back off my soapbox now.

[Dynamic Component]

Well spoken Roofis!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Lu Zuckerman]

The Germans have a word Schtoltz (phonetic spelling) which translates to pride. Some times this pride will overcome good judgement and cause the person to operate beyond their true capabilities sooner than the individual stating that he/she might be incapable of performing that specific task at that particular time.

[baranfin]

It is a shame that people died here but if the crash was caused because the pilots were drunk, this just really shows the difference between cultures I guess. A large part of my training was ADM and part of ADM is removing your emotions (pride)from the decision making process. No pilot that I have ever met takes the go/no go decision lightly. Weather, A/C condition, pilot condition are all factors. I feel to be safe it should be like that everywhere, even in germany. It's not like the slower reaction times and poor decision making are debatable effects of alcohol. thats just my opinion.