P1 & P2 or pilot assistant or???

[Irish Steve]

Scenario

JAR OPS commercial operation of Piper PA31, which is in theory a single pilot aircraft.

Under the AOC however, it's a requirement that if carrying passengers, it's operated by 2 crew.

So, what are

(1) the licence requirements for the person in the Right hand seat
(2) the logging of the hours by the person in the RHS.

I've tried looking at this in the JAA site, but it's about as clear as mud!

Cheers

Irish Steve

[Phil Brockwell]

Is it a requirement under the AOC to have 2 crew, or simply an option expressed by the operator for commercial reasons. There is no requirement under JAR to operate the PA31 as a 2 crew aircraft.

We operate PA31's single crew.

Phil

[Irish Steve]

Is it a requirement under the AOC to have 2 crew, or simply an option expressed by the operator for commercial reasons.

Phil,

Not 100% sure yet, I was under the impression that it's an AOC requirement when flying passengers, but there are other issues, like the owner/operator being over 60, so he HAS to be dual crewed.

Will check it out and come back to you

Thanks

Steve

[Son of a Beech]

If it's flown on an AOC and IFR it has to be multy crew there is no but about it. In this case the right hand seat pilot has to be typerated have done an MCC course and can log this as a copilot (p2) time
(in the netherlands anyway, but i think this is JAA standard)

There is however a difference between flying under JAR-OPS 1 (AOC) and flying under standard JAR rules in a JAR country. If the flight is done outside the JAR-OPS-1 rules a copilot is not required.

Also if it is not flown under JAR-OPS 1 the single pilot can be over 60 since this is not a comercial flight but a private /or areal work/ or for a private company.

SOAB

[Phil Brockwell]

"If it's flown on an AOC and IFR it has to be multy crew there is no but about it."

Not true, with pax or cargo the aircraft is single crew IFR or VFR.

We've been operating PA31's for nigh on 20 years and always single pilot.

[Son of a Beech]

Dear Phil,

If you have been doing it for the last 20 years it ovious wasnt on a JAR-OPS 1 AOC since the are only there for a few years.

I don't know about UK rules about nightfreight and if there is a temporairely exeption on single pilot IFR with pax in the UK but JAR-OPS 1 simply doesn't allow it.

Take it from me, I write the JAR-OPS-1 book for a living.

p.s. coukd you please specify the kind of ops and what kind of permit you are using the PA31 on

[Phil Brockwell]

We were on Cap 360, have been on JAR Ops 1 for the past 2-3 years.

Trust me, the PA31 is approved for single pilot IFR AOC for pax and freight, always has been.

[FLEXJET]

The PA31 (as well as turboprops with up to 9 seats) can be operated single-pilot under an OAC, with pax or cargo.
One of the main reasons why most operators operate such aircraft with a crew of 2 is the increase of allowed flight time.

See OPS 1.940 and App 2.

[Son of a Beech]

I guess this is another typical case of different country's different rules. (under JAR)

In the netherlands it clearly specifies that no flight is allowed under IFR with pax: single engine and/or single pilot.

I've noticed over the years that since the whole JAR is a minimum requirement and countrys are alowed to make higher minimums.

Another good exsample is that several country's allow under JAR single engine freight in IFR with a turbine aircraft (cessna caravan)
Norway, sweden, spain are a few countrys where this is allowed, this clearly forbidden under the dutch JAR rules.

All i can say is that in the netherlands it is not allowed but maybe in england it is.

SOAB

[pilotbear]

If you have a functioning autopilot it is single crew, if not it must be two crew. Used to operate Navaho, Cessna 310 and 404 etc and same applies.

[eyeinthesky]

SOAB:

JAR OPs 1.940 b):

QUOTE
(b) Minimum flight crew for operations under
IFR or at night. For operations under IFR or at night,
an operator shall ensure that:
(1) For all turbo-propeller aeroplanes
with a maximum approved passenger seating
configuration of more than 9 and for all turbojet
aeroplanes, the minimum flight crew is 2 pilots;
or
(2) Aeroplanes other than those covered
by sub-paragraph (b)(1) above are operated by a
single pilot provided that the requirements of
Appendix 2 to JAR–OPS 1.940 are satisfied. If
the requirements of Appendix 2 are not satisfied,
the minimum flight crew is 2 pilots.
UNQUOTE

Last time I checked, the PA31 had less than 9 passemger seats and was not a turboprop, so I'm puzzled at your so definite statement that it's not allowed single crew.

[BillieBob]

It is not JAR-OPS 1 that mandates two crew for public transport operations in The Netherlands, it is Dutch national legislation.

You must remember that JARs are only Requirements and not Regulations and that where they conflict with the national legislation of the member state, it is the latter that takes precedence.

Once EASA takes responsibility for Ops and Licensing, whatever rules they lay down will become European law, taking precedence over national law, and everyone will have to comply in the same way (it says here....)

[aye aye skip]

Phil Brockwell and eyeinthesky are correct with regards to Single Pilots Ops under JAR-OPS 1, at least in the UK.

A few years ago I used to fly PA31's for an outfit in the UK (we had a JAR-OPS 1 AOC), and we could do both pax and cargo Single Pilot Ops, provided the autopilot was operational with at least altitude hold and heading modes available. No autopilot, then it became a 2-crew operation in accordance with the Ops Manual and MEL.

I believe that companies like Aurigny have a special dispensation from the CAA to fly their Trislanders Single Crew without an autopilot, but then the sector length becomes limiting.

[eyeinthesky]

aye aye skip

Don't forget Rockhopper (although sometimes I think Aurigny wish they could...!)

The maximum sector length is 2 hours, I think.

Also, there is a ban on operating into the London TMA airfields, Birmingham and Manchester single pilot without an autopilot.

[BizJetJock]

Of course, the original justification for spending all the time and money on JAR was that it was not a minimum standard like ICAO, all states agreed to conform exactly. The powers that be proved as trustworthy as ever (not least our own dear UKCAA) and each country ignored the bits that it didn't like.
Now the fact that nobody does what they say is being used to bring in EASA who will allegedly make everyone harmonise - except they're already allowing differences and of course employing people to push paper around.

One day the world will sink under the weight of paper.......:mad: