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tony draper
21st Aug 2005, 23:56
Just heard a facinating snippet on the telly,during WW2 a German pilot, a certain Herr Shmitt, defected to the UK bringing with him the lastest German Radar kit,thus allowing the boffins to cut the aluminium chaff to the correct length to spoof German Radar, one has never heard of this before, it said he was escorted through UK airspace by two Spits so he must have been expected,,hmmm, facinating, what what!
:cool:

Buster Hyman
22nd Aug 2005, 03:43
"Righto Ginger, here comes Jerry now!"

"Roger Bertie!"

"I say, Jerry, ol' chap, would you mind joining us for a spot of tea on the common at Biggin Hill?"

"Nein! I haff very important information for zee Alliedz!"

"Steady on chap! It's almost 11'sies!"

"It's what we're fighting for Ginger!"

Evening Star
22nd Aug 2005, 08:02
It sounds like a version of the actual story told in Prof R V Jones's book 'Most Secret War'. Apparently a German nightfighter crew were ordered to shoot down the civilian flight between Sweden and Britain. Considering the orders wrong, and being against the war anyway, they radioed an engine fire soon after take off, dropped below radar height and set course for Britain. Approaching Britain they were intercepted by two Spitfires, the pilots of which worked out that the intentions of the German crew were not hostile and escorted then to an airfield (Woodbridge if I recall correctly). The gift to British intellgence was a Junkers 88 equipped with the new Lichtenstein radar, operating details then unknown to the British. This was in early 1944 and it was important to jam this radar in the bombing run up to D-Day, so the defection of the German crew was timely. Prof Jones comments that he had difficulty getting the Air Ministry to decorate the Spitfire pilots for not shooting down the German aircraft! Eventually they got a mention in dispatches, presumably for a de facto capture.

Blacksheep
22nd Aug 2005, 09:01
Doesn't sound right. Working out that a Ju88 had no hostile intentions indeed!. A Spitfire pilot could no more stop himself from shooting at a Ju88 than the average teenaged schoolboy could contain himself in a house of ill repute. Why, that young Geoff Wellum caught a glimpse of one breaking out of a 700 foot cloudbase for ten seconds in heavy rain and got off two bursts that produced smoke and a dropped undercarriage. He then chased it halfway across the North Sea in and out of dense clouds trying to get off a third burst.

Spitfire pilots generally announced their arrival on the scene by the impact of cannon shells and machine gun bullets. If they didn't, either there was some prior arrangement or Herr Schmidt was actually Frauleine Schmidt waving her boobs out of the windows.

tony draper
22nd Aug 2005, 09:17
Was thinking that meself Mr Blacksheep, sounds like a cover story to me, and not a very convincing one at that.
Tiz prolly covered under the hundred year rule so we wll prolly never know.
Apparently Mr Shmitt was not very popular in Germany though ,so no iron cross for him.
:uhoh:

ORAC
22nd Aug 2005, 09:24
The pilot was Oberleutnant Herbert Schmid from 10./NJG 3 stationed at Aalborg West in Denmark. The date was the 9th of May 1943. The aircraft, a Ju 88R-1 number D5+EV, is now in the RAF Museum in Hendon.

His radar operator, Oberfeldwebel Paul Rosenberger, was in on the defection plan. His FE, Fw Georg Kantwill, was not, but did not have any choice in the matter. A preplanned defection, the aircraft landed at Dyce escorted by several Spitfire who protected it against attack by other squadrons who had not informed.

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/types/germany/junkers/ju_88/junkers-1x.jpg
Ju 88R-1 D5+EV of IV/NJG 3 after restoration at RAF St Athan.

tony draper
22nd Aug 2005, 09:42
"I must ask Herr Shmid,why did you do it"?
"Ja, vee very much liking zer Englander feesh unt chips, unt vee all hating zer sausages are"
:rolleyes:

railwaysengineer
22nd Aug 2005, 12:19
Im mostly amused by your brillant posts, Herr Draper (really !!).
May I invite you to a very effective german class to our capital Berlin ?

Evening Star
22nd Aug 2005, 12:20
ORAC

I stand corrected on the details which I should, of course, have checked against Prof Jones's book in the library here at the Ivory Tower. However, it was raining and I was in a hurry, so did not bother to go and check.:O

Herr Draper's comment about the one hundred year rule may still apply. Prof Jones wrote his book back in the 1970's, when I imagine some details were still fairly sensitive. The technical stuff does, I recall (in other words it is still raining!:}), accord with 'Instuments of Darkness' by Alfred Price, although that is from the same period so may be subject to the same restrictions.

tony draper
22nd Aug 2005, 13:03
The cousins on tother hand are quite open about it, they just took out a ad in the Vladivostock Evening Post saying,
"Wanted by collector, one Foxbat, one million dollars payed for any Mig 25 delivered in good order to Japan,no questions asked"
.
:rolleyes:

airship
22nd Aug 2005, 13:22
Well, don't just stop there ORAC! :)

I'd like to know what happened afterwards... His FE, Fw Georg Kantwill, was not, but did not have any choice in the matter. One imagines that they would all have been interned until the end of hostilities anyway, but did they all go away with a few thousand quid in their pockets at the end of the war, compliments of HMG?!

But vat eef eet allvoz a XX, und ze radar had bin ezpezially prepared by ze German counter-ezpionage zervice?! Iz there any zcientific evidenz that ze neu chaff vas evvective?! :uhoh:

Evening Star
22nd Aug 2005, 13:30
Off topic but while on matters German: While waiting to board a Lufthansa flight at FRA this week, little Miss ES (aged 6) asked me why do Lufthansa have a knife and fork painted on the tail. Have a close look (http://photos.airliners.net/middle/8/4/5/863548.jpg) and see for yourself. :\

airship
22nd Aug 2005, 13:55
Please tell Miss ES all about the dinosaurs. It looks to me that the Lufthansa logo may be a little past its prime for most:

http://www.garieinternational.com.sg/clay/walking-dino.images/flying_rep.gif

Still looks good to me though... ;)

egbt
22nd Aug 2005, 15:05
Evening Star

Your post rang bells so I checked up (book 5 yrds away - don't have a library!)

Prof Jones states that a SN2 fitted JU88 landed in error and intact at Woodbridge on 13th July 1944 confirming calculations of frequency of operation made from photos taken in May and shown in the book.

SN2 came into service in Feb 44 and was presumed to be a development of Lichtenstein S which was an anti-ship system.

The original Lichtenstein, type BC, had a range of 2 miles and was the one presented to the UK at Dyce in May 43.

For anyone interested in scientific intellegence and the development of technology during WWII this book is a must have and a v good read.

tony draper
22nd Aug 2005, 15:14
I worked with a old chap who was the Radar boffin on a raid to a installation on the French coast,he said he had a large commando sergeant with a large sten gun with him at all times, he thought, this is good, they are certainly looking after me ,then he realised, they sergeant job was to make sure he didn't fall into into German hands....alive.
:uhoh:

egbt
22nd Aug 2005, 15:32
The Bruneval Raid, Flt Sgt Cox. The raid was commanded by Major Frost (of A Bridge to Far fame) and initiated by the then Dr Jones. Early 1942 from memory.

tony draper
22nd Aug 2005, 15:59
They called the Chap Chas,Charlie something,can't recal his second name now, he was a partner in a business based in Hartlepool called Futurama, they made digital comms systems that we installed on the Tyneside Metro system in the early 80s,he was a character all right.
:rolleyes:

Darth Nigel
22nd Aug 2005, 16:38
Found Dr Jones book hard going -- seemed to be very full of "and then I stopped Churchill from making this awful mistake" -- a better title might have been "How I Could Have Won The War All On Me Own."

But fascinating none-the-less.

Evening Star
29th Sep 2005, 09:05
Resurrecting this thread because finally got myself down to the library to get Prof Jones's book out for a read. Confirm egbt's correction of my original post. Also got out Alfred Price's 'Instruments of darkness' to cross reference. Apparently the Woodbridge incident was an inexperienced crew setting a reciprical course and neither crew or airfield (the controller assumed it to be a Mosquito) knew anything until the crew bus arrived at the aircraft. Price writes, "The surprise was mutual, but the British N.C.O. hurriedly produced a Very pistol and forced the Germans to surrender."!

Darth Nigel, have a vague sympathy in what you write. However, in truth Jones writes with the assured air of somebody who is intelligent and does not bother to be embarrasssed about that fact. Rather goes against the (moronic?) ethos of our age so can jar, even for other intelligent people. In addition, the 'I won the war' air he adopts is actually justifiable. That said, he is honest enough to say of his work (in talking about the bomber offensive), "We had certainly done our utmost; but, in thinking of those hundreds of dreadful hours flown through German defences by 200,000 airmen of whom 50,000 British and a comparable number of American did not come back, how could we have done less? And was it enough?".

Airship, love it!

johnfairr
29th Sep 2005, 09:57
Fascinating chap was R V Jones. Not only a gifted scientist, but a very fine father, apparently. I was introduced to an extremely attractive headhunter from a recruitment company in the mid 80s when I was looking at various options within my career choices. She was a dead-ringer for the lady that ran Pineapple Dance Studios at the time, same sort of body and dress sense.

We got chatting about things other than IT and it transpired she was RVJs daughter. She had two degrees, was a PhD and could have been on the front of Vogue. Not surprisingy she was eminently successful in her chosen field and only took commissions that interested her, working at the C-level.

Before anyone gets ideas above my station, she was seeing me as a favour for an old chum, although we do keep in touch still...

jf

Sedbergh
29th Sep 2005, 10:01
The Ju 88 concerned is in the RAF museum at Hendon.

Hendon claim that the crew was persuaded to defect by British secret service agents.

RV Jones clearly was a brilliant bloke
it's not surprising it comes over that way in his book!

SLFguy
29th Sep 2005, 11:06
Why the hell is this in JB... it's farkin hayviation ffs!