From zero to CPL and FI: Cost in UK (Merged)

[philhurd]

As a complete novice I have spent time searching for the info I need but I guess that ,just like anything else, you need to know where to look. Can anyone give me a realistic idea of how much I would need to spend to be able to fly helis as a profession? And if antone can help explain the numerous abreviations then I could at least communicate in the same language.

[helicopter-redeye]

Call it £70,000 plus opportunity cost of lost income (if applicable)

That's to get to the entry gate.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

forget it - go fly a tin tube and get treated like a human - wading in **** and grease with the chance of the donkey dying and the machine sending you perilously to the ground, every five minutes - don't waste your time and money !

( how did I rate on the ' scaremonger scale ' lads? )

[Oogle]

Lots and lots of threads previously about this subject. The answer comes in two parts:

1. How much to get your licence; and

2. How long before I can get a job

The answer to the first would come from any of the local flying schools. The second answer depends on how much time (and therefore ££££££) you can put into finding a job. Not very easy but it is achieveable.

The £70,000 mentioned before is probably not far off the mark if you add up all the costs.

You have been brave to throw the question out to the forum and you will get some scaremongers here and there but stick at it - you will succeed.

But FlyingSquirrel is right - if you want the bucks, go for the airlines (but nowhere near as exciting)

[Quick Release]

Phil.

I got my cpl-h in OZ and got a job straight away with the company i flew with, a few guys of hand that were there same time also got the same and within 2 years one of them is now working for Bristows as a Co-pilot, the others i lost track of, i would call that professional employment and it only cost him AUS35G , home studied ATPL and IREX.
Some will post they have spent a fortune, but thats because they are trying to buy thier way into the industry, but it doesnt have to be like that always.
Thats not a punt at those people who do, like alot of people who post, beware the companies that tell you get this and get that OH! and we can help you with that just leave us your credit card!. spend a fortune and still no job.
I feel for the UK guys spending all that dosh that could be doubled if taken else where ie: OZ or US, i saw lots of UK guys go to OZ for a CPL then even do the JAR additional hours also in oz and went back to UK, some stay in OZ and get basic tourist jobs with basic salary but heaps of hours in both piston and turbine, not a bad start.

Just another view from one who spent very little did some home work and made a few friends and went a long way
:ok: PM me if you like,tell me about your self. maybe i can help.

[Whirlybird]

Ah, yes, the abbreviations...I remember that problem.

PPL(H) - helicopter private pilot's licence. You can fly, take passengers, but not be paid.
CPL(H) - helicopter commercial pilot's licence. You can legally be paid to fly. But no-one will give you a job unless you know the right people.
FI - Flight instructor. You first get an FI(R). That means it's restricted, ie you can only instruct under supervision. Getting rid of the restriction is hard, so there are loads of FI(R)s looking for work.
ATPL(H) - Helicopter air transport pilot's licence. Not sure how you get this; it used to be when you'd flown loads of hours, but that may have changed. You really, really don't need to worry about it now.
Ab initio - lit "from the start" if I remember my Latin correctly. Used by flying schools to mean they'll take someone who doesn't know one end of a helicopter from another, and teach them from there right up to getting...whatever.

Basically, to stand any chance of a job, you need a PPL(H) - around 50-70 flying hours; a CPL(H) - lots of exams and a 30 hour flying course; and an FI(R) rating - total of 250 flying hours altogether, plus a 30 hour flying course. Multiply all that by £250/hour (less when flying solo), add in a couple of thousand for exams, medicals, and ground school (written work) and you won't be too far off the figure needed to have any chance of getting a job. Subtract a bit if you're willing to work out the rigmarole of being VAT registered (you can claim it back in some circumstances), if you can go abroad to hour build (do lots of flying to get those magic hours), or you want to pay for some flying in advance and get a reduction (risky; flying schools go to the wall with monotonous regularity).

Right, now we're speaking the same language...what else do you want to know?

[nimbostratus]

Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Helicopters)

This is the licence towards which all pilots should aspire.
The requirements are as follows:

To be aged at least 21 years;
Pass the fourteen ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations;
Have completed at least 1000hrs of flight time to include:
350hrs multi-pilot operations, 250hrs pilot-in-command (PIC), 200hrs cross-country flight time, 70hrs instrument time, and 100 hours night flight as PIC.

The only realistic route to this is to obtain your CPL(H) and then apply for a job on the North Sea. Don't worry about finding work, there's plenty of it about. ;)

[Camp Freddie]

I have said it before, but I will say it again


CPL(H) only £40k approx high risk, no chance of employent
CPL(H) + FI rating £60k approx, low risk much better chance of employment but rewards can be low until you become high time
CPL(H) + IR £70k high risk, potentially high returns is you get to the north sea, jobs scarce at present

thats it really

regards

CF

[notnoz]

Phil,

At those prices you'd be better off going to Oz and getting a licence there. Half the price, better job prospects and you could drop all that saved cash on the aussies to win the ashes and be laughing all the way into the hover!!!! ;)

[thecontroller]

training is often cheaper in countries other than the uk, but beware.... without a work visa, a low-time pilot will probably struggle to find work.

[The Ferret]

Phil

You can set yourself up for alot cheaper in the USA - and there are Visas schemes that will allow you to get your qualifications and then work to achieve a respectable number of hours. Check out Helicopter Adventures Inc in Florida.
:ok: :ok: :ok:

[TheGimp]

It is cheaper getting your licence abroad but the problems come when:

1. You pass your CPL, but because your hours are so low no-one can employ you as they can't get you insured.

2. It's much easier for companies to employ a resident of the country rather than go through a load of hassle to employ johnny-foreigner.

3. You find out you can't stay in the country and end up having to come back to the UK where the :mad: CAA tell you that your licence isn't worth a damn and if you want to fly over here you'll have to do all the ground school & exams again!

Not that I'm bitter :{

[Bertie Thruster]

Phil, are you still young enough for the military option?

[notnoz]

You might want to check the status of the J1 visa before you go down the US road. l believe things are in the process of changing with regards to working on a J1 after you have finished your training. Chances of a 'green card' are nil unless you turn up on a rubber tube and claim refugee status. Then there is always the lottery!!!!!

[jemax]

Hi all,

I put a post up on Saturday, thanking a number of people for getting me from 0 hours to CPL in just under 12 months, a few people have PM'd me to ask more details costs, advice etc.

I thought it might be helpful if I put up an e-mail I sent out in reply to relay my experience of getting through the last 12 months.

I hope it helps, some of it overlaps with stuff in FAQ's, but hey, something in there might help.

Good Luck, see below, oh and thanks for the congrats to those who sent them through

Adam



Firstly Class 1 medical, before you spend a penny, without this you are going
nowhere, bout £500.

Not sure of your financial position, I was reasonably comfortable, but had the fixed outgoings which go with a well paid job, I budgeted very carefully, went to see an excellent accountant. Don't kid yourself on the budget, there will always be things you don't factor, add at least 10%. Also factor in any loss of income, I stopped working entirely on 31st July 2004 so I could devote 100% of my time to it. Accountant got me Vat registered and sorted out National Insurance that type of thing.

Back of a fag packet
PPL £14k, less vat if you get registered, includes a bit for the 7 exams and test itself, I did it in 46.2 hours including the test and 6 weeks, don't believe this stuff about 60 hours to get through, it's not necessary if you are doing it intensively. If you do a couple of hours a month then yes it's likely to be 60+ hours. My instructor was £215 per hour plus vat.

I contacted Bristol Ground School the same day I passed, but in fact you could start earlier you just have to demonstrate you have completed the exams before doing the CPL Skills test. Their distance learning course is excellent, I didn’t go for a classroom course as the pace is too slow,
I did the lot start to finish in 6 half months, but I worked hard, could have easily taken a month or even two off that if I had really worked, but couldn’t have done as much hour building. I did 9-5 every weekday. £1900 for this plus 4 weeks accommodation at £30 per night in Cheddar,
13 exams total, I got through them all first time, none of it is rocket science, but there is a lot, USE THE ONLINE QUESTION BANK before hand, I had three weeks solid on this alone for the first lot of exams.

CAA exam fees about £60 each, 13 exams. Plus a few days accommodation at exam centres and food say £500.

Hour building at the same time, I flew all through the winter and so was happy to fly less than sunny condition, but watch for deteriorating weather and always have options, wind is a big issue at low hours, well all hours for that matter, have landed in a field rather than press on a couple of times, never even think of going anywhere near IMC. I hooked up with a more experienced mate who was also hourbuilding about 50 hours ahead and we could split workload, especially useful when in sh*te weather. Difficult balance here, but you do need to push yourself a bit, otherwise you will shy away from anything but benign conditions, but do be exceptionally careful and take advice from more experienced pilots.
Going to states is a waste of time, by the time you have factored in VAT rebate it's not cheaper and people will look on you better if all your flying is in the theatre you operate in. Unless you want a holiday or to work out there.

Hourbuilding Use this time wisely, visit lots of flightschools in the heli, go abroad a couple of times, I flew to the Pyrenees and took some mountain flying instruction, get comfortable with helilanes, get to know as many people as possible. So from PPL pass you need to get to 155 hours to start course, so for me an additional 110 hours at £150 plus vat self fly rate. Quite a lot of hotels and stuff to factor in in the hourbuilding say £3k on top. And have a purpose for every single flight, if it is to meet someone, find out
they are there and fly in, do not waste this time.

Commercial course 30 hours at £215 plus vat again, relatively straightforward and really improves your flying, also you need to factor in an additional five hours night flying, which cost me in total £1800 inc vat. Look at document 3H on the CAA website for a description of what's in the test, put it in the search and it'll come up. Exam fee is £600, plus about 2 hours heli hire.

So I reckon about £50k plus loss of income, the ground school is not too difficult if you are motivated. YOU WILL NOT GET A JOB AT 200 HOURS CPL, best bet is get to 250 and do instructors rating, I gather the course is challenging and another 30 hours plus exam fee and there do seem to be people looking for instructors if you have the right attitude.

Get a very experienced instructor you get on well with and who has guaranteed access to aircraft, this can be difficult if they don't have their own Heli, mine did, actually he had access to two on his own, watch this as I have spoken to people who have
had numerous lessons cancelled because aircraft have gone out on charter at short notice. Pay nothing up front, or just a bit, I would lodge a couple of grand, use it up, sometimes in a couple of days then he would ask for some more, sometimes I owed him a little sometimes he owed me, but never let the balance
get too high either way.

Oh and I also did a 44 conversion which was excellent as I have managed to get about 15 well cost shared hours from that as noone will pay to go up in a 22 on their own, but 3 mates together at £100 each for an hour is affordable and fun for them.

So now I am an unemployed heli pilot, I have a few really good irons in the fire, but we'll see, great year, oh and I have started a gardening business in the last 3 months which is doing quite nicely and allows me to be flexible.

When you look at your finances cut out all unnecessary expenditure, I even canned the SKY Sports subscription.

First flight was a year ago yesterday, I had never flown anything before and no aviation background at all, but am very motivated.

This is a bit rambling, happy to help, com back to me with any clarification.

My views entirely, and treat the damn things with a huge amount of respect,they'll have you in two seconds flat, I used to race in the British Superbikes and nothing was ever as scary as one or two moments I have had in a R22, read Fatal traps for helicopter pilots and scare yourself by reading lots of AAIB accident reports, if you still want to do it JUST GO FOR IT!

Adam

[Gerhardt]

An EXCELLENT post! I'm into my 8th hour in adding a helo rating to my ppl so this is fun for me to read.

1. You said there are a few job prospects for a 250 hr CPL. What types of jobs?

2. Did you find the CPL much tougher than the PPL?

3. May I ask how old you are?

4. What are your intermediate and long-term career goals?

5. Your next step to achieve those goals?

[jemax]

Thanks

In my opinion there seem to be a few people in the UK looking for instructors at the moment, if you have a good attitude, so once you have an instructors rating there is a small possibility of employment, terms will not be great though.

CPL in itself is not that much tougher than PPL, standards are higher, but you are flying better by that stage, I found the pre prep on the ground more challenging that the test itself, look at the 3H document

Im 37, Aries, good sense of humour ;)

Career goals ultimately want to end up working overseas, but that is some time away, want to get into the North Sea, had a trip up there recently and it's an incredible set up

Next step, get to 250 hours, to start instructors rating, but out of budget for hour building now, so this will have to be begged borrowed and stealed, currently on 206 and following up on the contacts I have made during hourbuilding

Hope this helps

[chopperchav]

Congrats and good luck for future. I quit my job last week with view to doing cpl next year so very helpful to read your comments. I might be pestering you in the future for some more advice.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Hey Jemax - ever seen that show, the flying gardener? I think you better get in touch !! :D

[g-mady]

Hey jemax,

Really great post for someone like me,

Im about 90hrs PPL (H) at present and hoping to do what you have described,

You sound really motivated (with respect to the exams),

I just hope I can find that drive when studying,
Would full time learning be better? I know you chose not to because it was too slow!,

Any thoughts

Maddy

[jemax]

I have a hedgetrimmer with more grunt than a R22! Although even had to cancel Gardening work today cos of weather, and could do with the money!

Maddy, Ref Full time study, I have spoken to people who have done full time and got on well with it, but generally it's a minimum of nine months and leaves less flexibility for hour building. I was able to hour build at the drop of a hat when circumstances or aircraft availability allow, I believe it costs more too especially if you need to uproot to do the course.

Each to their own, some prefer classroom, I hadn't studied seriously since 18, but part of the reason I packed in my previous career was because I wasn't learning anything, so I found the learning fun.

Plus none of the ground school is really difficult, a few bits make you wonder until you get to the two week brush up, but they tend to clear up when they go through them, be aware there is a big volume of work. I can't overestimate the imortance of the on line question bank, there was a big difference in the brush up between those who had done it and those who hadn't.

Good luck

[ariel]

Excellent post Jemax, very inspirational. If I was hiring heli pilots / instructors, I'd certainly hire you.

Rare to come across someone with such UNFALTERING drive. Best of luck for your future.

ariel

[g-mady]

Hey Jemax,

Just woundering what you meant by

"I hooked up with a more experienced mate who was also hourbuilding about 50 hours ahead and we could split workload"


If your "mate" is sitting in the right seat of the r22 and your in the left you cant record that as flying hours... can you???

Or did you just mean to ease testing flying conditions?

Thanks

Mady

[thecontroller]

>"Going to states is a waste of time, by the time you have factored in VAT rebate it's not cheaper and people will look on you better if all your flying is in the theatre you operate in. Unless you want a holiday or to work out there."

That's rather an unfair blanket statement. Not everyone can afford UK hour building prices and a R44/B206 rating.

If you have no ties to the UK then going to the USA on a J1 visa can be the most attractive option to gain experience, plus it may open up other worldwide opportunities.

[boomerangben]

the controller,

It could be argued that if you cannot afford to learn and hour build in the UK and get a 44 rating, then you cannot afford to become a CPL. I know that is controversial, but there are too many people out there with big loans and no licence.

Jemax,

Great post and my story is similar, although I was pre JAR.

All other aspiring North Sea pilots:

There is a rumour going around that some self improvers in the NS have not met expectations and have struggled with IR/twin type rating/multi IR conversion/line training/night deck landings. If you want to go North Sea you must speak to the companies and find out what they want in terms of training and experience.

Good luck and go for it, but make sure you do your research first.

[jemax]

I hold by statement about the states, I intend to fly in the UK for a while so wanted to build my experience here, you also have to factor in accomodation.

However a mate did go out there hooked up with the right people and has a plum job in Equador now, it's just my opinion. People say it's cheap there about £100 sterling self fly per hour, well best I was quoted here was £135 ex vat so choice is yours. Can be fun though I hear, oh and of course visiting the Robbo factory for the safety course is a must if you are over there.

Also R44 rating is not so much, if you consider the comparitive price vs self hire of a 22 which you'll have to do hour building anyway. £300 vs £150 for 5 hours and it helped me get about 15 R44 hours subsidised afterward and a type rating.

Ref hooking up with the mate we split the flying and did much longer flights, e.g first time across the channel together, over to Northern Ireland, plus it's a bit of company for a beer for the overnight stop.

Boomerangben, I have done my research ref N Sea, but appreciate the challenge and learning it involves.

Oh just to clear up it's 206 flying hours total not a 206 rating, I wish!

[cadaha]

OK Ladies and Gentlemen

I know I'm gonna get blasted for this but I cannot seem to get a reliable answer from Flight Schools.

I wish to go from zero to FI and would like the cold hard facts about the costs involved for an average student (not just the minimum hours required per license and 'it's cheaper in the US especially if you do it all with us in one go' etc).

I would like to do it all in the UK using the same school (continuity etc and will also need to work to cover the costs of hours building and the courses after PPL(H)).

I would like to do as much of the ground school as possible at home unless some sections would be more beneficial with an instructor.

Any help in coming up with a costing would be grately appreciated and also what are the chances of any employment at the end of it all (part time or full time). Can ferrying jobs be obtained to bolster flying hours after PPL(H) or would you need CPL(H) status.

Thanks for your assistance

:8

[Perra]

I started my PPL the October 2003 and completed the course in June 2004. I was flying 1 to 2 hours every weekend at the same time as I was studying for the theory exams. Below are the total costs I had to pay then.

PPL Hours Flied:
Total Hours (Inc. Test) 49.2

PPL Total Costs:
Flying 11092 (£240 an hour)
Books 249
Written exams 140
R/T Oral exam 40
Flight Test 200
Issue PPL licence 149
Class 2 Medical 200
Travel 323

Total 12393

Notice that I was very lucky with the travel (Train and then cycled to the airport)

[jemax]

This is a post I put up a couple of months ago, I hope it helps

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186794&highlight=thinking+of+doing

I am starting FI course on 2nd Nov and the company I am going with are going to use me once I have completed course, but I go into it with eyes open and we'll see what actually happens.

Good luck, back of a fag packet to FI £70k plus loss of income, thats with about 35 hours scrounged/free/freeish/cost shared

[cadaha]

I knew it was going to be a long haul to get to FI. I have the funds for the PPL(H) without working, so can concentrate on the first part unimpeded from there stuff gets a bit more difficult.

I suppose I'll have to go back to work and try and hour build somehow until I can get onto the CPL(H), and I'll have to do that part time (1 Hour a week maybe if I'm lucky). Hour build again and then the FI course.

A couple of the schools that I've looked at use the Schwiezer 300 which is supposed to be a bit more forgiving than an R22. I will need a type rating for the R22 though as most schools use that helo (although I've heard some scary stories about that twitchy little beast). I also want a type rating on the R44.

The ideal thing for me would be, do the PPL(H); get a full time job as ground crew at a school; beg hours; get up to FI and then move up to flight staff at the same school. (I can dream can't I?);-)

By the way I live in Yorkshire so any recommendations in that area would be appreciated if you know of any decent schools there.

By the way Jemax, who did you ride for as I'm a huge fan of BSB, used to have an R1 until one of my mates was killed and another trashed himself (stick to the tracks I say).

[blade771]

Jemax

Good post, its not easy going the self study route and to have completed it in 1 year is very commendable. You mentioned a couple of good point for those wishing to take that route. I must agree with the point on training in the states, as an employer / someone who sees a great deal of CV's my senior guys always frowned upon those who had trained and hour built in the states, 'fair weather fliers' as I kept getting told!! The british weather, as you rightly pointed out, can throw some pretty interesting situations at you very quickly and it is those who unfortunately push on into worsening conditions or IMC that create the accidents - a field is always a better option.

Another useful titbit for those with low hours (which includes myself!) is to try and get associated with an AOC company where you can either, if you are really lucky, dead leg or at least go on trips to areas you have not been before - we have always had problems with the low time flyers who do not hours build away from base i.e. train at an airfield and fly 100 hours at that airfield. It will always lead to problems in Nav and confidence. There are a number of operators who I am sure would welcome those who are interested. This also gives those who have not had experience in the commercial world a chance to see what really goes on - for those thathave been through it will more than likely agree that the training, irrespective of how good the school is, can never really prepare you for public transport flying - passengers can be a strange addition to the cockpit environment.

All in all flying is great fun and a hell of a way to earn a living (for those that can), the very best of luck to all looking for work or going through the fun of the CPL!!

Furthermore for those going on the self study route (fixed or rotary) - I cannot recommend Bristol Ground School strongly enough, Alex and the team are fantastic and the notes are relatively easy to read. They also have fantastic feedback so you should be pretty well prepared for the exams.

[icarter]

Hi all,

Just been on the phone to "fast helicopters" at shoreham enquiring about working my way up the ladder from PPL(H) to getting my CPL(H) and IR course.
I was shocked when the person I spoke to said that when it comes to getting my IR course...it costs about £40k alone ! :eek::eek:

Is this average or normal ? does anyone know anyone cheaper for the IR course and if so, are they as good ? I just dont know how I could get that sort of money in a short period of time.

[Need money]

I'll add my two pennies until someone else comes on and gives you chapter and verse..... but yes, doesn't sound 2 far off.

Thought that probably includes your type conversion.

IR in UK (JAA) land, is generally done on twin engine turbine (with one or 2 exceptions) conversion to type in that costs circa £10k, then £30k for the rating itself on the twin (including sim time)...lets hope you get through first time on min hours !!

[Whirlygig]

£40k is about right and probably assumes you get through in minimum hours and, of course, doesn't include the test fees which are over £1k.

Cheers

Whirls

[Sven Sixtoo]

Hi

No posts here for nearly a year so seeking some up-to-date advice.

I'm soon-to-be-ex-military, a bit over 6000 hrs rotary, mostly SAR. I have a UK ATPL(H) and could probably renew my S61N rating the same way I got it on a Sea King.

The questions: To improve my employability, what's the best use of time and money - FI or IR or a type rating on something that will open a vfr job? What's the cheapest way to an IR (if Aunty Betty will let me, can it be done on a mil ac)?

I'm reading all the info and starting to ask around, but would appreciate good advice from those already in the business.

thanks

Sven

[mikebantam]

Hi, I have been wanting to do my PPL(H) for quite a while now and being a helicopter pilot is the only career path that I can see myself doing in the future. However, there is that one small issue of finding the money to do the training. As I am only 20 years old I don't have much in terms of 'life' savings, especially not the required £10-12k, so I am struggling to see where the money is going to come from. Do any of you who have already done the training have any tips for me? How did you go about funding your PPL(H)??

Thanks.

[Whirlygig]

I worked hard at school and univeristy, got a good job for maximum income with minimum effort and saved. But then, I was too old to join the armed forces.

Cheers

Whirls

[Bravo73]

^^^Wot Whirls says.

Join the Army/RAF/Navy. They will pay for everything, in exchange for a few years of your life.

[misterbonkers]

Or get daddy to pay for it...

[tu154]

20 years in IT paid for my career change. :}

[parasite drag]

There's no magic wand Mike....

Seek out Dennis Kenyon, he may have a ppl(h) sponsorship lined up for this year, if not next..

You say you want to pursue a career....even if you manage the ppl(h)...how will you move on from there...given that it only gets more expensive ?

PD

[thecontroller]

A PPL in the UK for 10-12k? More like 15k

[O27PMR]

I funded my PPL(h) training by releasing some equity from my apartment... Other than that, like others have already said, go the military route, borrow from parents/bank etc or work hard and save!

PR

[O27PMR]

thecontroller - I was lucky enough to complete my training after about £12500 but I had budgeted £15000 which I agree is a more realistic figure...

PR

[DennisK]

PPL Dennis Kenyon Scholarship

Sadly no PPL sponsorship became available for 2010 but it is hoped to invite applicants for 2011. The announcements will be made in LOOP and BLADES which wil include an entry form.

Best wishes to you all out there,

Dennis Kenyon.

[choppertop]

Stop. Think.

If you're struggling to raise the first £15k, ask where the other £85k-£100k is going to come from. That's the real cost of zero to CPL+IR+a couple of type ratings, which is what's needed to earn a living.

Armed Forces, buddy. Let the nation pay.

(Oh ... I sold my house, in case you're wondering.)

C-top

[MartinCh]

Hi there.

I don't want to discourage you, but without working your ass off for years, making it through to fly/get trained in forces, having luck owning property to be sold/remortgaged, inheriting something of that kind, at your age.. Nigh impossible.

I know how you feel. I've loved flying since I was kid, with special 'zing' whenever a chopper flew past, saw a picture or used to draw crappy pics of Jetranger before I even knew 206. Hot Shotz series with RC heli with camera, OMG. Blue Thunder movie, yay. That poor 'beefed up' Gazelle looked like Apache to me when I was a kid. Well, wasn't born in UK or US to have any luxuries and options in the past.
That's country (after splitting up) with 50 (FIFTY) commercial/ATPL heli pilots, most/all of them trained in forces in the past, old salts, with 1 (ONE) PPL(H) on local CAA register.

It's possible, but very arduous way to get into heli flying for living. Very. Especially as GBP value slumped against USD and not likely to recover to 2:1 or better, to save us few grand, training in the US. I finally 'got lucky', if it could be said, with some money in accounts, from inheritance and land sale (mom's), although due to exchange rates against dollar, it's a disaster of a value now. Still can't reject it.

Problem is, even if you somehow manage to get funding for PPL and finish it, it's just the beginning of long road. It's easier to break into heli in the US thanks to licensing, although jobs were never easy to get, very, very likely as instructor first. The Yanks also had it easier in the past regarding loans for whole training. Nice. Thanks to credit crunch, SilverState collapse, Sallie Mae etc don't do unsecured high loans anymore.

There's lots of resources in Rotorheads if you search and go through FAQs.
European licensing is much tougher, as the hours requirements to finish up FI rating, are higher. Whichever way, heli flying is expensive, even if you just rent/hourbuild.

If you can't get any funding from land/property at all next decade or two, work out back up plan/job/studies, that'd pay well to be able to make it.
Don't forget, flight crew in the UK (RAF/Navy) applications until 24yo, so try it out and see.

There's also no use of scraping years for PPL when you'd have to spend 3-5x more to qualify for job. Don't let the minimum CPL hours mislead you. You could get a job, legally, but insurance, company policies, experience required, all that, no way in hell. Even without European IR(H) - very costly affair, you'd need more hours for a chance to be sponsored by North Sea operators for IR rating and job with them, bonded, but from what I've read, it's less and less frequent and not likely with sub-200hrs.

You'd need to keep current, UK/JAA regulations, to keep the licence. You'd want to. Question is, how often you'd fly.
I've saved for years, slaving off in restaurants, night job, whatever, alongside my studies. I'm not youngest anymore, still studying, but engineering at least now.
Had I known the pain/disenchantment encountered over past years and future, I'd probably just fly gliders/PPL(A) for fun and focus on career that'd allow me to fly for fun.

Spare 50-80k? (GBP, depending on location, hours, luck, exchange rate, etc)
Then go for it. Do you want to save 10 or so years, killing your youth's free time, skimp on leisure expenses, travel, etc? Hmm, doable.
Or get highly paid job pronto and in few years it could be reality.

I'm flying gliders and tailwheel right now for fun, although will continue my rotary training later. If you really, really want it, it's possible. But don't be mad at anyone, especially not yourself if you have to save for years and realise it just may not be worth it, chasing dreams and not living life as it is, when you're young. It s:mad:.

Sorry for long-winded post, or own reflective blah blah, but I wanted to give you an idea. Be very aware of all the stuff ahead, read up ANO/LASORS/JAA FCL pertaining to helicopter licensing, check out some big schools in the US. At current rates, Australia, South Africa, NZ, none of them cheaper, their low rates..
Only rich/-ish people fly helicopters as a hobby. Most try to work flying them.

[firebird_uk]

Like the other posts, I would say that the options are 1) the armed forces, 2) find the cash.

I took option 2 as I'd have never been picked for option 1. :(

There is a chance that some kind soul like DK will give you a leg up, but let's face it, these chances are rare. Visit any training school and you will see successful middle aged people, young bucks sponsored by the bank of mum & dad and a bunch of mid to late 20's who have found a highly paid job and are using the money to buy themselves a poorly paid one. (But one they believe they'll enjoy more).

If you exclude the military route, being a professional helicopter pilot is a job you buy and I see no signs of that changing. Quite the opposite.

MikeBantam - Time to get that 4th paper round.

[Need money]

tu154: "20 years in IT paid for my career change. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif "

....and its currently paying for mine (hopefully !)

[Pandalet]

...and 7 years in engineering, plus some stock market wins is paying for mine.

Approx. costs as of now, assuming all training done in the UK:
PPL(H) - £15k
Hour building (generally 100 hours or so) - between £10k and £20k, depending how you do it
CPL(H) - £10k - £12k
IR(H) - £41k - £48k

This gives a minimum of £75k zero - IR, assuming you pay everything yourself. There are a few bursaries around, particularly if you're under 25, but they're few and far between, and the competition is fierce.

There are a number of ex-mil folk around, and this is a good way to short-circuit the training costs (assuming you don't mind being shot at for a living and can get in). You will probably have to do some conversion training to get the civil tickets (e.g. IR conversion), but the total costs to you are much much lower. How well military flying prepares you for a civil flying career is a topic of some debate.

If you're young, consider doing the '2 years overseas' thing - you still have to find the cash, but you tend to come out with more experience.

Good luck!

[MartinCh]

MikeB,

As Pandalet shows you brief breakdown, just to get idea.
I wouldn't say that the 100hrs hourbuilding is productive, regarding heli flying, although maybe part of JAA requirements. When I flew heli in the US, students did their solo circuits, PPL, XC solo etc, that's qualifying for CPL issue, but flew with instructors a lot, to chisel their skills. Maybe the PIC time after PPL FAA thing has something to do with it.

Assume you'd go to the US, to one of the 'past J1' school, currently using F1 as a patch, long story the reasons behind, Bristow Academy or Hillsboro Aviation (well, before you ask, Pelican in Florida use/d fixed wing J/F1 for heli students, but that's not too kosher from what I read and understand).

It'd cost you in the region of 70-90k USD (incl expenses) to finish up with 150 or 200hrs, so that you can instruct in R22 - again, FAA regulations, not just plain CPL with 150ish hours.
Same or bit more for Bristow. That's not including JAA IR(H), which is a long shot, for low hour pilots, to fast-track their way to co-joe seat in North Sea.
Instructing in Europe is safer bet, but then, you'd need to spend more on hour building towards higher hour requirements.
Depending on exchange rate, you can work it out yourself.
The '2 year thing' aka current F1 with two of these heli schools, would give you possibility/option to apply for and get heli instructing job. Again, very fierce competition for that in US. You aren't bound by the same school, you can look for job elsewhere so long your school sponsoring visa is in the loop. It's more restrictive, F1 now, that the J1 was, so beware of the rules.

As for maxing up credit cards. Ehrm, you may get away with 10-15k if you plan it, before the lenders get the gist and stop increasing the limits or decide not to give you another loan/card. Lending got more limited after credit issues in country and tons of people filing for bankruptcy. You can build your credit history, when you work, use the cards, etc. As way to do the whole training? Not likely. Short term help to finish up that one rating near completion - YES. Strategic plan to do whole lot on it and then wash your hands? - NO.

EDIT: Just noticed the title of thread yours was merged into. Disregard US stuff.

[Goody35]

Apologies if this has been asked before. Is it simply a matter of doing another type rating as in flying X number of hours on a turbine machine or does moving to a turbine engine require one to do a ground course as well? If so what time and cost is typically involved?

[jonwilson]

Pandalet,

I have not come up with the same costings, mine are considerably more.

Are you planning to do the PPL in the UK and the hour building and CPL abroard?

[John R81]

Goody35

In good old JAAR land, if you have a license on anything else - a Robbo? - then it is a type rating to move to a turbine like R66, EC120, B206, H500, etc. In addition to the minimum hours (5, I think) and a flight test there will be a ground exam to check your familiarity with the aircraft and its operating parameters; i.e. a typical type rating. Nothing more involved in moving from Avgas to first Turbine.

[AlexJT]

Hopefully the mods don't mind me bumping this thread?


I'm aiming to go from zero to CPL + IR. I have some savings set aside to get me to CPL + FI for sure, and hopefully if claiming VAT back is still possible, then will have enough to do IR too.


Does anybody have any 2016 recommendations which will help me get to the required hours to do CPL, FI and IR.


Has anyone got an up to date costings of what they have spent to get to this level?

Any input appreciated.

[helimutt]

fohnwind pretty much nails it.

[Hueymeister]

Go fixed-wing...go fly a Dream-Liner

[AlexJT]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I did gather that the VAT reclaiming would be a bit suspect, seeing as training schools become a bit tight lipped when you ask, understandably. I think I'm right in thinking that having a good accountant on board would help?

U.K. Training is my preferred (and only option) really. Young family etc, you catch my drift. But as you say, exchange rate, cost of living, would prob make the difference negligible anyway.

I understand what people say about the lack of jobs, but isn't that the same as any industry really? Far too many fish for the size tank...?

I've tried fixed wing and rotary and found the rotary to be more interesting. My ultimate aim would be for HEMS, and being 30 now I feel I could still easily have 30 years enjoying something that would be a handful to work with every day!

[HU300CBI]

Hi There,

I've recently completed CPL ME IR (2015). The best advice I would give you if you are set on doing it is go to the US, it is MUCH cheaper. Do an FAA licence and then convert to EASA. Also find a school that will give you a visa you can work in the US for a year and get some hours.

If you do an ME IR in the UK it will cost around GBP50,000+, however if you convert an FAA SE IR the cost is around GPB 30,000 as you only need to do a conversation, multi engine type rating and some hours refining your skills. I believe you can also do the FAA SE IR as part of your hours building so the only additional cost is a few more hours instruction.

When you've done the above if you want to stand a decent chance of finding work you need to factor in an FI ticket.

Do all that in the UK and you're looking at around GBP120,000 (excluding travel, accommodation opportunity cost of not working etc.), talk to a good accountant about claiming VAT back - it is possible and legal. Do it in the US (once the sterling recovers) and you'll save about 35% on that.

Honestly though, as fohnwind has said, there are almost no rotary jobs at the moment and a rapidly expanding fixed wing market......

Feel free to PM me.

Good luck

[HU300CBI]

Hi There,

I've recently completed CPL ME IR (2015). The best advice I would give you if you are set on doing it is go to the US, it is MUCH cheaper. Do an FAA licence and then convert to EASA. Also find a school that will give you a visa you can work in the US for a year and get some hours.

If you do an ME IR in the UK it will cost around GBP50,000+, however if you convert an FAA SE IR the cost is around GPB 30,000 as you only need to do a conversation, multi engine type rating and some hours refining your skills. I believe you can also do the FAA SE IR as part of your hours building so the only additional cost is a few more hours instruction.

When you've done the above if you want to stand a decent chance of finding work you need to factor in an FI ticket.

Do all that in the UK and you're looking at around GBP120,000 (excluding travel, accommodation opportunity cost of not working etc.), talk to a good accountant about claiming VAT back - it is possible and legal. Do it in the US (once the sterling recovers) and you'll save about 35% on that.

Honestly though, as fohnwind has said, there are almost no rotary jobs (just look at all the operators and see who is hiring) at the moment and a rapidly expanding fixed wing market......

Feel free to PM me.

Good luck

[General Mutley]

I know it sounds like a stuck record - but i would think long and hard. I really don't think you will have any luck in the UK getting a job. It's just the reality.

If you are set on it though you should think about going to the US - you will save a lot of cash and having FAA as well as EASA is really handy. It's a pain having to go through converting to an FAA ATP at a later date - I know as I had to do it this year :/

IThere are many schools but If you want to PM me I can put you in touch with where I did my ATP conversion - very impressed and the cheapest price I found in the states - it's in a Robbo 22 - interesting after not being in one for a few years....!

[AlexJT]

Cheers guys, some really helpful, up to date advice!
I read someone's comment on here the other day (can't remember the thread, but it was an old post) that said he vowed never to pay for further training, type ratings etc. I'm assuming this was after PPL and CPL, but is this only possible via a scholarship, or a very understanding employer?!

[newfieboy]

Dude, you really gotta listen to the boys that already posted. Yes there are opportunities in this industry. But not in UK right now. You need to Open your eyes to fact if you want offshore right now ain't gonna happen. Company I work for as expat Brit in Canada have French, Swiss, German, UK pilots touring 3/3 but the kicker is... Do you have right to live and work in Canada...they do it ain't easy but doable. Guys get 1000/2000 thou hrs they normally away to the races and do fine, some of our expats doing offshore CHC Thailand, N.sea etc. You ain't gonna get a job in the UK right out of school unless you do the FI route for quite a few years, you can throw thousands UK pounds at it... Ain't Ryan or Easyjet mate... You need experience dude to move on....outta flight school 150k in debt...no one cares let alone give you a job. Realistic sorry, but that OUR industry...

[Gordy]

Finally someone speaks the truth...... Listen to Newfieboy...

[helimutt]

They can certainly 'invite' all they like :E

[kpd]

Finally someone speaks the truth...... Listen to Newfieboy...

Hi clearly reading all posts very limited chance of job in UK even after paying a lot of money (? 150K) to train. Has that changed or is the outlook still the same? Thanks

[kpd]

Are there any openings abroad for new graduates if you are prepared to travel anywhere -problem also appears to be visas even if openings?

[Camp Freddie]

Hi clearly reading all posts very limited chance of job in UK even after paying a lot of money (? 150K) to train. Has that changed or is the outlook still the same? Thanks

I dont think anything significant has changed in the last year in the UK.
fixed wing is still booming
highly experienced rotary pilots (10000 hrs+) still struggle to get a job, it still tough out there, until the oil price increases i think it will remain tough for everyone, onshore and offshore.

Are there any openings abroad for new graduates if you are prepared to travel anywhere -problem also appears to be visas even if openings?

i can't speak for the onshore opportunities, but overseas offshore opportunities are still pretty hard to come by, when they do happen they are for experienced captains only, and there will generally be local co pilots being trained to replace you, we have come a long way in negative direction since the ex pat hiring boom of 2012 (weststar etc)

salaries where available are about 30% lower than 2012, this is my observation, depressing but true, it makes no sense to spend big bucks now unless its for fixed wing.

[kpd]

Thanks to all for the very honest advice of experienced pilots.

[Kraxous]

Two years later boys and girls, still the same?

Been out today to really get to work on my PPL(H). Best part is, I'm right across from the Bristows SAR hangar. That's my motivator every time!

[Super 61]

Two years later boys and girls, still the same?

Been out today to really get to work on my PPL(H). Best part is, I'm right across from the Bristows SAR hangar. That's my motivator every time!

It's probably worse than 2 years ago in the international space. There's a lot more national pilots and engineers holding positions comfortably these days that would have been filled by expats in years gone by. There are promising signs of an upturn in African offshore exploration so potential for short term work there for qualified crew (92/139)

[Kraxous]

It's probably worse than 2 years ago in the international space. There's a lot more national pilots and engineers holding positions comfortably these days that would have been filled by expats in years gone by.
I still find it bizarre how awful the industry looks. More often than not, the posts I read generally read as very negative and try to steer newbies away from even considering going CPL.

Shame.

[Same again]

One aspect of offshore/SAR work these days that people do not mention in this thread is that there is very little actual 'flying' these days as most phases of flight are automated. So if stick and rudder stuff and the pure pleasure of flying is what you are after then you should aspire to onshore flying. If you are into automation then you'll find a much more stable and rewarding career as an airline pilot.

[jnc90]

Newbie posting here - looking at options to begin the long journey to CPL(H). Just wondering if anyone has any up to date figures for obtaining my license in the UK (or abroad if better/cheaper options)

Been quoted hugely varying rough estimates from different schools for the cost from start to finish so thought it may be wise to ask some impartial sources?

Apologies if I'm looking for a simple answer to something far more complicated but have struggled to get consistent estimates for the overall cost.

Thanks in advance :)

[Ovc000]

If any doubt, go fixed wing.
If you really want to fly helicopters, invest 65k and risk ending up with no job:
R22 PPL 20k (60 hours, average for getting PPL)
hour building 95 hours 27k
ATPL distant learning 3k
CAA exams 0,9k
R22 CPL 11k
Total 62k
Gives you a CPL(H) with 185 hours.
most people use hourbuilding to get an additional typerating which will increase the 27k a bit.
Some also go abroad to hour build, depending on exchange rates it can be a bit cheaper.
If you do it in a G2, then add ~15k to the bill.
Not 100% accurate figures but it's a good ballpark figure to make a plan with. Rates change during the year so make sure you have a bit more than worked out.

With just a CPL you most likely won't find much work so you either invest in a FI 12k or IR 45k,
An instructor job will give you 45 per hour, max 4 students a day so if you're busy not too bad.
IR is a huge investment and it comes down to who you know if you can get a job somewhere which onshore will start with 35k and offshore around 45-50k all depending on employer etc.
By the time you finish your training (which will take at least 1 year) things might have changed in a positive direction or in a negative direction.
Drones are more widely used in places where helicopters were used, Northsea is slowly shutting down (Compare the number of platforms 15 years ago and now).
Air ambulance, great job but salary not worth investing in an IR.
Think about what kind of job you would like and how it can impact your life (beeing away from home when you work offshore, FI hard work for minimum pay etc)
Good luck!!
Looking back, would I have gone for a fixed wing career........

[Robbiee]

Fifteen grand just for a third blade?

,...why you could get a Hyundai for that! :E

[ApolloHeli]

European Helicopter Centre offer an Integrated CPL(H) for about £73k, on an R44. Alternatively, you can do the integrated ATPL(H)/IR with MCC for about £115k if you want to aim for IR-rated flying. The rent for a room at the school is typically about £600 a month, so factor in about 13-15months of stay if you're serious about it.

I'm just putting this here as another option or so you have a first hand source for the cost from zero to commercially licenced pilot. https://en.ehc.no/helicopter-pilot/tuition-fees/

[Robbiee]

Yeah, training in the good old R44,...a lot of money for that back seat you don't need! Hmm, kinda like that overpriced third blade!

Must be nice to be rich?

[ApolloHeli]

Yeah, training in the good old R44,...a lot of money for that back seat you don't need! Hmm, kinda like that overpriced third blade!

Must be nice to be rich?

Well they use R22's at the moment but I believe they're transitioning everything to the R44 as some students are too heavy for the R22 to be practical, and with an R44 the school can bring two students and more fuel for a longer trips. Two students splitting flight time away & flight time back for better and more diverse Nav etc. Just allows them to offer better more interesting training rather than always flying circuits in the same airfield like many ATOs. The difference in the course between the R22 or R44 as it stands only appears to be £8.5k across a 130hour integrated course (i.e. £65 per hour). Whether that's worth it is subjective; it may be overpriced in your opinion, but to others it might be justified.

[Robbiee]

Well they use R22's at the moment but I believe they're transitioning everything to the R44 as some students are too heavy for the R22 to be practical, and with an R44 the school can bring two students and more fuel for a longer trips. Two students splitting flight time away & flight time back for better and more diverse Nav etc. Just allows them to offer better more interesting training rather than always flying circuits in the same airfield like many ATOs. The difference in the course between the R22 or R44 as it stands only appears to be £8.5k across a 130hour integrated course (i.e. £65 per hour). Whether that's worth it is subjective; it may be overpriced in your opinion, but to others it might be justified.

Ah yes, the donuts and cookies crowd has always been the 22's Achilles Heal,...or the "swoll bro" types as well, I suppose, but I suspect there are far fewer "Arnolds" than "Homers".

As for "circuits", as you call them, I did many of them at many different airfields during my training without an R44,...even did a couple (hundred mile plus) cross countries, so I don't really see much benefit there, but whatever.

Anyway, an extra £8.5k would certainly help while trying to live off entry level pilot pay, so for those who desire to shell out more dough for the same line of ink on the same piece of plastic,...?

You're crazy!

[jnc90]

Hi bud! Thanks for the reply, very helpful and informative! I think those figures are about what I was expecting realistically. I've been looking at it and thinking of it for a couple of years now since I left my job to spend a couple of years travelling. It was something I thought of before doing so as a way of a career change and to get out of the office basically, then happened to meet a number of pilots (rotary, airline, fixed wing) while travelling who worked in a variety of industries. The rotary appealed to me far more than working for an airline as I love the idea of possibilities opening up to work abroad, particularly in roles such as bush pilots in Africa.

When you say fixed wing, do you mean airlines or would you even recommend smaller fixed wing?

What I didn't mention in my first post is that I'm currently in the recruitment process for the Royal Navy. I applied back in November last year after finding out they raised they're age limit to 32 (I was just over before they did so). So far have passed the eye test, medical and fitness. Waiting for the FAT's and Admiralty Interview Board dates now. If I was to be successful in that and of course spend the next 10 years or more in the RN would my training and experiences with them put me in a strong position if looking to leave and work in the private sector?

[Ovc000]

some students are too heavy for the R22 to be practical, and with an R44 the school can bring two students and more fuel for a longer trips. Two students splitting flight time away & flight time back for better and more diverse Nav etc. Just allows them to offer better more interesting training rather than always flying circuits in the same airfield like many ATOs. The difference in the course between the R22 or R44 as it stands only appears to be £8.5k across a 130hour integrated course (i.e. £65 per hour). Whether that's worth it is subjective; it may be overpriced in your opinion, but to others it might be justified.

I would say, some instructors are too heavy for the R22 :-).
About having 2 other students in the bck. some students don't like it when other people watch what they do and get nervous which would be a TEM issue.
Most student also like to go after 2 hours, spending a full day and only do 1 hour flying 1 hour briefing is not really attractive for most people.
Justifying paying extra for a R44 just comes down to how rich the student is. Most rich students only go for PPL and the poorer students go for PPL-CPL and do it in a R22 to get the licence as cheap as possible.
Some exceptions of course.

[jnc90]

If any doubt, go fixed wing.

Looking back, would I have gone for a fixed wing career........

Hi all - regarding the above comments and other comments throughout this thread, just wondering when people say to 'go fixed wing' are they generally referring to ATPL/flying for airlines?
It's never something that has appealed to me really, especially from conversations I've had with a good friend who is an airline pilot and is already looking to get out of it himself at 25. My sort of long term goal from flying rotary would be the diversity of the work (in theory), particularly possibilities to work as a bush pilot in Africa, Australia, Canada, USA etc.

Is going down the route of flying smaller fixed wing a viable career path? If so, how comparable are the training costs vs CPL(H)?