Why not operating an russian helicopter?

[hotzenplotz]

I wonder why russian helicopters are not very common in Europe and the USA.

On the other hand European and American helicopters are not very common in Africa and parts of Asia.

Why is this so?

Are there differences in the maintenance sequences?

What are the cost differences between western and eastern machines, and how does it depend on the location?

I hope somebody can help me understand the world of helicopters.

Regards…

[compressor stall]

Maintenance is a very good starting point.

I hired a Mi-8 in Kamchatka for $1050USD per hour.

[Aesir]

It is because they are not approved by European JAA & US FAA aviation authorities.

That does not mean they cannot be approved but it is very expensive process and for the Russians the market in Europe is simply not big enough to bother.

I have myself flown Russian Mi17 and visited the factory in Kazan. Excellent helicopters and very nice to fly.

I remember we discussed that we would need some huge hangars to house the beasts and the Russians would just look at each other and talk a bit in Russian! Then they asked us why in the world we would want to put them in hangar.. they are designed to be parked outside and are not hangared f.ex in Siberia :)

[hotzenplotz]

12,000 kg (26,455 lb) MTOW and a payload of 4,000 kg (8,820 lb)
for $ 1050 USD/h is not that expensive.

Which western Helicopter would be comparable in the class of th Mi-8?

[Whirlybird]

I did some Mi-2 and Mi-8 flying in Russia a couple of years ago. With an instructor, the Mi-2 cost me about the same as R22 self-fly hire in the UK, and the Mi-8 was about twice that. So...maybe £150 dual for the Mi-2, £300 for the Mi-8, roughly; I can't remember exactly.

[Aesir]

Which western Helicopter would be comparable in the class of th Mi-8?

AS332 Super Puma and Sikorsky S61 are both "Light" helicopters compared to the Mi8 & Mi17 series at about 9000 kgs but they probably cost about $ 5.000 USD/hr.

So the Russian helicopters are much cheaper to hire or operate but then again they don´t have to pay European wages.

[NickLappos]

The actual payload and range of the Mi-8 put it exactly in the S-61/S-92 class.

The biggest reason for the lower prices per hour is the state of the Russian economy, as well as that of the former client states that carry enormous amounts of spares, willing to sell them for literally cents on the dollar. There is nothing inherently "unsafe" about the classic Russian designs, but there is much that simply does not meet the standard of a modern western helo. The design philosophy was to build rugged, cheap to buy, cheap to operate military aircraft (the "civil" models have a paint job) that did a good job of ferrying hundreds of thousands of troops in battle. The massive Russian war machine was equipped with about 5,000 operational Mi-8's and about half that of Mi-24 gunships.

The overhaul times are awful, the airworthiness control of spares is practically nil (Chinese knockoffs made in bicycle factories are world-wide nightmare for the Mil guys) and their accident rate is eye-watering. They are used in the former Soviet client states because that is what they are used to and what they can afford (a legacy of how very successful Communism was, frankly, to everyone who embraced it!)

I have the deepest respect for the folks who made these machines (I am friends with Dr. Marat Tischenko, chief designer of the Mi family for 2 decades and Gorgen Karapetyan, their former chief pilot). The newest generation of Russian designs will have the design features, certification basis and maintenance controls to compete world-wide, I am sure.

[Spunk]

Besides the facts mentioned before I think the biggest problem is the fuel consumption. As fuel prices keep increasing day by day there is just no way to operate any Russian helicopter in an economic way.

[Shawn Coyle]

Adding to the problem is the lack of operational control / training of some of the Russian pilots - not all of them, but the bad ones do give a lot of others a poor reputation.
One operator who does have Russian helicopters (VIH Logging in Victoria, BC) has had excellent success with them with Canadian pilots. One of their comments when they were getting checked out by the Russian pilots was that they never saw the helicopter started the same way twice, even by the same pilot.
Checklists? why would you want to use a checklist???
Once they sorted out the spares situation, they are really racking up the hours, and the machines perform very well. But it was very very long road to get to Canadian approval.

[Aesir]

Checklists? why would you want to use a checklist???
Hehe.. now be serious guy´s :suspect:

However the Russians can provide first class training if customers want it. At Kazan we asked how much time it would take to get type rating in the Mi17, they said the school was 3 months!! say WHAT!

Yes apparantly the pilots go through the same course as the mechanics (engineers) for the first 2 months and then they start flight specific training for the last month.

I have also flown the Mi17 simulator in St. Petersburg and it´s really good although not a full motion simulator but seriously even when flying the excellent full motion sims at Flight Safety you hardly notice if they are taken off motion for instructor replacement etc.

http://iserit.greennet.gl/waltere/mih5b_resize.jpg

Thanks: Another St Ivian, figured it out finally
;)

[Another St Ivian]

There you go, Aesir...

http://www.kazanhelicopters.com/upload/mih8b.jpg

;)

[hotzenplotz]

I read that the average fuel consumption per hour of a Mi-8 is about 800 Liters.
How much does an S-61/S-92 need in an hour?

Is the overhaul schedule different of a Mi-8 in comparison to a “western” helicopter?
When these machines are designed to be operated in remote areas, do they have 100h/300h etc. controls or do they have a “big” overhaul after a certain time?
I hope you understand what I try to say.

It would be interesting to hear about the differences in the maintenance schedule.

[Hippolite]

The fuel consumption of the MI8 T is around 800 litres per hour. Maintenace ispections are on a 75 hour cycle, ie 75, 150, 225 etc.

Each inspection can be carried out within 20 hours of the 75 hour time limit, ie the 75 can be done between 55 and 95 hours.

Aircraft are flown with 2 pilots and a flight engineer.in Russia. The engineer usually performs the start and shutdown. He sits on the jump seat.

The pilot seats have no shoulder harness and the jump seat has no seat belt of any description!!

[hotzenplotz]

Does this mean the minimum crew of a Mi-8 is 2?
One pilot and an engineer?

Can a Mi-8 be operated by a single pilot without the engineer?

[Aesir]

No minimum crew is 3! Two pilots and flight engineer.

Major overhaul is at 1500 hrs, similar to many western helicopters, there is no scheduled component replacement within the 1500 hrs except for some component in the tailrotor at 800 hrs.

[alouette]

Well, how much would an MI-8 cost per hour if the aircraft would be operated in western Europe? Tried to find some information about BSF (Berliner Spezialflug) but could not come up with a good answer.:{

[tecpilot]

BSF (Berliner Spezialflug) seems to be complete or nearly complete out of business. It's impossible in Europe as a german and LBA-JAA guided and pressed company to compete with russians also with operating russian helicopters. Some years ago their price was round about 3500€ would means at the moment 4375 USD per hour to get their Mi-8.

It's not the russian helicopter making the absolutely low price it's the way to operate the ship and under which circumstances.

It's also impossible to get a permission to operate newer russian ships in Germany because of the strict "NO" by the german authorities because of lacking western type certifications.

They junked more than 80 eastgerman Mi-8 after the reunification.

A lowtime ex-eastgerman Mi-8 exploded 2002 in the Pinewood Studios to bring fire in to "007" :)

A german project to convert very cheap ex marine Mi-14 helicopters to 4000 liters "Helitankers" also flopped because of "european problems".
http://www.sonnet.com/usr/wildfire/mi14-1.jpg

[alouette]

Thanks Tecpilot...:ok:

[hotzenplotz]

Which russian helicopters have a FAA/JAA certification?

I know about the Ka-32 in Switzerland and Canada.
Mi-8 in Germany

Any more?

[tecpilot]

Which russian helicopters have a FAA/JAA certification? I know about the Ka-32 in Switzerland and Canada.
Mi-8 in Germany


None of them! Only special and limited permissions by the local authorities i believe.

A FOCA limited permission (Switzerland) is no FAA/JAA certification.

The Mi-8 in Germany are limited and counted former eastgerman helicopters. No new possible after the reunification.

[hotzenplotz]

There was a modification of the hydraulics to meet european standards, and then the machines got their swiss certification.

[tecpilot]

Swiss certification as said by FOCA and limited to aerial work. It's impossible to register this ships in other european countries.
Or do you mean with modifications on the hydraulics the ships meet western (JAA/FAA) standards? :) To meet the JAR/FAR 29 standards the ships must be completely new designed...

[Spunk]

Hi Tecpilot,

as far as I know BSF is back to business. They finally managed to find some money to get the required overhauls done and are back up in the air flying.

Do you know if those two demonstrators of the above MI 14 are still "based" in Sacramento?

[hotzenplotz]

Is it to keep the russians off the FAA/JAA market, or are these helicopters really that far away of our standards?

[madman1145]

Concerning Russian helicopters in JAA/EASA, I remember this article, describing how Malta Air Charter had to stop operating their leased Mil-8 at the time Malta entered JAA because they don't comply with JAR-OPS 3 ..

Link to article: http://www.airmalta.com/page.jsp?id=4248&siteid=1

For what I know, spanish HeliSureste is now operating on Malta with a Bell 412 ..

[Aesir]

Is it to keep the russians off the FAA/JAA market, or are these helicopters really that far away of our standards?

We sometimes tend to believe that Europe is so important that everyone will want to sell helicopters here ;)

But from my discussions with the Russian Kazan helicopters that they are not really very interested in certifing the Mi17 in Europe. Mainly because of cost and that the market is not big enough for return on the investment. They are also concerned that western operators and customers would be biased against Russian helicopters and that it would be a tough market to come into anyway.

[hotzenplotz]

What has to be done basically in the overhaul, that makes this so extremely expensive?

[Aesir]

In the major overhaul at 1500 hrs everything is replaced and I mean EVERYTHING! Including the wiring harness, engines of course and all rotating components.

It´s pretty much the same process as the Robinson overhaul. You have pretty much a new machine after the overhaul.

I have flown machines straight out of the overhaul and there were no snags, absolutely none! The quality of workmanship at the established overhaul centers is second to none.

I am in no way an expert on the Mi17 but I was impressed by the quality of work and professionalism by the factory and the overhaul centers I have visited. Just because some operators don´t put much work into the paint on their machines does not mean that they are no good.

I have been offered jobs flying the Mi17 but the pay is usually not very good because of the availability of Russian pilots. The pay is the only reason why I´m not flying Mi17 now.

[cpt]

In 92-93 ,I have had to deal and fly on MI 8 AMT (or MI 17-1) built by Ulan Ude production factory...really a great helicopter perfectly adapted to tough conditions....and I don't think one of our "westerner" equivalent could have done the same job so easily. Neverheless, talking about "our"certification standarts, everything, except maybe performances is out target.
Life times are so terribly short because this helicopter has been initialy designed to comply with military standarts for a battlefield with almost no maintenance. A factory engineer told me the life times could probably be extented , but at this time no real study had been done in this matter.
Latter, I have seen civil Mi17s operating in South America, with great efficiency once again in difficult conditions
As I have already quoted in a previous post I only regreat not to have taken a type qualification and flown them after my "russian tour"

[tecpilot]

With more than 100 flighthours on Mi-8's as pilot and a/c commander on the most common operations day/night and IFR including firing unguided missiles ;) i think the ship is ok, but it never comes to the western standard of such a/c in this weight limits.

May be some of you guys, usually flying lighter ships are impressed, but the ship must be compared with Super Pumas or other really big helicopters.

The avionics are on a level 1970 including AP, 1500 h for a full job TBO is crazy, the engine reaction time is the lowest i have ever seen on turbine helicopters. There is a sentence " For gods sake don't pull the collective more than 1° per second!!!". The oil and fuel consumption is adventurous. The cabin is cluttered, more than 90 switches and circuit breakers.
The ship is cheap, it's cheap built, completely without modern material. The hydraulics have only one tank. In case of a single hydraulic failure it's better to land immediately before you run out of hydraulic fluid. The ship is old, constructed in the sixties and due to the changes in Russia and the world and the market with thousends of Mi-8's, design changes in the last 20 years are marginal.
The market is overflooded with thousends of ships, with and without papers, ex- mil and civ ships. Nobody knows from which sources the older ships come, bogus parts, overtimed "refreshed" parts, nobody have control. For a few bucks you can have anything on the papers in russia you need.
Lets swarm Whirly about their times in Russia, about the few bucks (R-22 price) she paid proud for "Twins". Nobody knows if her flighttimes now even could be found in the a/c books. May be it was only a little private business by some guys on a desolate airfield. The new and old owners have only one intention, making some dollars in this "eastern pioneer times".
But this is not the problem of the ships. It's the market.
Who thinks the ship is to operate with 1050 USD per hour is mad. Thats only the price for the 3 man crew, the 2-3 mechanics and the needed fuel. Wow, I forgot the price for a eraser to bring new hours to the ship :)
The absolutely best part on this ship is the perfect kerosene heater, making the ships cabin on OAT -30° in a few minutes hot like hell - on the ground without running engines!

:ok:

[offshoreigor]

Sorry Guys/Gals and Nick Lappos,

BUT NONE OF THE ABOVE IS CORRECT!

The reason we don't see Russian Helicopters such as the MI-8, MI-17, MI-26, KA-32 in use in the west is for one simple reason.....NO PAPER TRAIL!

We tried in the 90's to certify an MI-8 MTV for western service but because we could not satisfy the west that the T/R for instance came fro MI, not the local MI managers second cousins tractor factory, we could not certify the helicopter.

I understand that Kamov is now producing a FAA/CAA/TC certified version of the 32 that will put 61's/64's and all other contenders out of the heavy lift business!

I can remember flying formation with a KA-32 in the North Sea and seeing him wave goodbye and accelerate to 190Kts+ as he left us in his dust to go back to Mother.

:eek: OffshoreIgor :eek:

[tecpilot]

Canadian operator Vancouver Island Helicopters (VIH) owns three Ka-32As as part of its more than 80 helicopter fleet, one of which has flown more than 10,000 hours. The Vancouver-owned Ka-32As are the only examples of their type in North America.Modifications required to obtain Canadian certification included dual hydraulics, updated instrument package and firewalls on the air-start APU. The result is a unique Ka-32A11BC model number that signifies a Kamov Ka-32 acceptable for Canadian registration. Currently, the Ka-32 cannot be registered in the U.S., but Kamov is working on obtaining an FAA type certificate in the future. The swiss model isn't the same as the canadian. Both are unique ships, different from another.
I can remember flying formation with a KA-32 in the North Sea and seeing him wave goodbye and accelerate to 190Kts+ as he left us in his dust to go back to Mother.
This is impossible, the koax main rotor system on the Ka-32 doesn't allow speeds greater than 140-145kt.

[offshoreigor]

Sorry Tecpilot,

We were doing 150 and his departure rate on our Radar was 40 kts. Simple Math. Oh yeah I forgot......VNE to a Russian means Nada.

What types do you fly and how fast do you really think they go. I used to be with MTF.

:eek: OffshoreIgor :eek:

[Aesir]

The PZL Sokol does have western Type certificate (http://www.pzl.swidnik.pl/AN2000/01_SOKOL/2103_a_sokolcertmasyosiagi.htm)

http://www.pzl.swidnik.pl/AN2000/01_sokol/sokol_bellytank_3.jpg

That´s an interesting helicopter. Does anyone know of any operated by JAA or FAA operators?

[tecpilot]

A PZL Sokol W-3A is operated by the saxonian police in Germany. First they operated 2 but sadly they lost one including crew in january 2005 may be due to LTE. The single pilot was absolutely unexperienced, with 300h completely and 30 on type, not to understand. Have it flown first on a visit in Swidnik in 1992 before the western certification and later again. Can confirm it's interesting, but the TBO's are also low. The ship is also cheap and in my opinion more worth to do a look on it as to the russian ships. PZL isn't very great and fast with spare parts but they have the things better under control than the russians. The W-3A is a nice and strong ship FAA and JAA approved, completely western avionics, glass cockpit, FLIR, NVG, Hoist, nearly anything you want, up to 14 pax, or VIP, nice to fly but MTOW is also more than 6to on a payload round about 2to.
If anybody is interested on eastern models thats the only ship i would take a look.

[offshoreigor]

Tecpilot

I'm curious as to why you chose that name as your posts dont reflect that level.

My online name says it all, I fly offshore with 8000 hrs on Sikorsky.

Not a dis but I'm really curious.

:eek: OffshoreIgor :eek:

[tecpilot]

offshoreigor

I'm so sorry about your critics. What do you expect on the forum or from my side? Filling pages technical blah-blah?

Ok,i try one:

Technical report engine TV2-117A used on russian helicopters Mi-8:

The engine is left turning, the empty weight ist 332,5 kg.
Power: 1100 KW limited to 6 minutes on a max T4 850°C
880 KW limited to 60 minutes on a max T4 790°C
735 KW unlimited on a max T4 600°C
RPM: Compressor: 21.200
Powerturbine: 12.000 means 95,3% indication in %

Compressorstage: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Number of blades: 21 23 33 45 49 53 57 55 55 57

The angle of the statorblades on stage 1-3 is changeable with a servo working pressure 2750kPa...

Sorry offshoreigor i'm tired...

[Aesir]

Haha... :) Good one tecpilot.

[Aser]

tecpilot & offshoreigor:

I can remember flying formation with a KA-32 in the North Sea and seeing him wave goodbye and accelerate to 190Kts+ as he left us in his dust to go back to Mother.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is impossible, the koax main rotor system on the Ka-32 doesn't allow speeds greater than 140-145kt.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We were doing 150 and his departure rate on our Radar was 40 kts.

So... 50 kts of tailwind?
You are discussing about IAS and Ground Speed, aren't you? ;)

[cpt]

190 Kts with a KA32 !!!! looks to me more like a free fall speed for this type of helicopter designed for anti submarine ops. Russians used to nickname this helicopter " the sabre dance" I am trying to imagine these long blades sailing and drag at this airspeed !

[offshoreigor]

Aser

Our G/S was 150. He was accelerating away from us at a departure rate of 40 Kts (on radar). Do the math. Our indicated was 140, hence a 10 kt tailwind.

Tec Pilot?

Your knowledge of unconfirmable numbers is incredible, therefor I ask once again, why the name?

:mad:

:eek: OffshoreIgor :eek:

[tecpilot]

Just go out and count numbers instead looking to radar :) may be you can find also some unconfirmable numbers.
There are enough unconfirmable numbers out there, enough to share between you and me.

I don't like looking to radar and prefer to smell the ship himself. Because you need a very good camera to make instrument photos of your Ka-32 flying with you in formation, i shoot the following one for you. If you look to the left upper corner you can find the right instrument on a Ka-32. I'm dreaming ?! A confirmable number!
Please note it's marked in km per hour! The absolutely VNE on sea level is red marked on 260 km/h.... But the ship isn't able to reach this speed on cruising, only on a steep dive.
You was at a 140kt steep dive formation on the KA-32 VNE when suddenly the dammned russian ship accelerated again +40kt, the pilot waved goodbye and showed you the real ship identity! It was Mr. Santini and AIRWOLF :) :) :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/tecpi/5c0584b3.jpg

If you have further questions... anytime my dear...

Note the "restricted" marks...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/tecpi/ka-32-1.jpg

I can remember flying formation with a KA-32 in the North Sea and seeing him wave goodbye and accelerate to 190Kts+ as he left us in his dust to go back to Mother....
...We were doing 150 and his departure rate on our Radar was 40 kts....
...Oh yeah I forgot......VNE to a Russian means Nada.

[offshoreigor]

Tecpilot

All I can say is "Some Mother's do Ave em!"

:eek: OffshoreIgor :eek:

Tecpilot

2 KA-32\'s are on a direct collision course at 120kt g/s each. They are 4 miles apart. When will they collide?

Will they collide?

What colour is their underwear when they do collide?

:eek: OffshoreIgor :eek:

[heli_michel]

hey offshoreigor....

sorry i interrupt this (for me a little child.) conversation...who's wrong who's right??? dosn't matter i think...but next time you maybe ask somebody who spent a lot of hours in a KA-32 and doing nothing else then sling-load ops in constructing skilifts, towers and so on all kind of altitudes and situations..

maybe that was the idea of a forum...isn't it....

and by the way...a lot of people (pilots) with several thousand hours in aerialwork feel not like they need to have such a "all explaining" nickname...

cheers guys and for everybody ...safe flying

[hotzenplotz]

To go back on topic…

There is in Belgium a company called “Skytech Helicopter Service”.
They operate all kinds of russian helicopters with russian registrations.

On their website they offer services in „Defence and Peace Keeping“. :suspect:

They also state to operate a Mi-10K.

Does anybody know something about this company?

[Oogle]

OK, OK - let's ask the really important question.

Why do the Russians make such UGLY helicopters when their women are drop dead gorgeous???? :ugh:

[Shawn Coyle]

To add my several cents worth to the discussion

W-3A - very nice machine. Lots of potential - fully de-iced machine, nice square cabin - the Polish operator who used it in Spain for firefighting had no problems with it - only problems with the factory. Management of the company still stuck in the Stalin years from my encounters with them. No threat to any western manufacturer.

KA-32 - you wouldn't get a KA-32 to 190 Kts downhill with a following wind - if the vibration didn't get you, the incredible nose down attitude would have. And probably the two rotor systems would have started to touch each other. The Vne is pretty hard to reach in level flight with maximum power, so I'd be very surprised at the 190 Kts.
But unsurpassed for lifting heavy loads.

The Poles told me that they knew of Mi-2 helicopters that would be chained to a tree, and every spring the battery would get charged, the various fittings that needed grease would get greased, the engine would get de-preserved, fuel would be added and then the helicopter would get flown for 10 hours to spray the collective farm's cherry trees. And then the engines preserved and the helicopter parked again, outside by the orchard for the rest of the year. Blades tied down - maybe. Engine covers - maybe. But no other attention till the next spring.

'Russian helicopters are Russian solutions to Russian problems.'

And just like our helicopters have difficulty surviving in Russian conditions (no hangars, spare parts difficult to find), theirs will have difficulty surviving in our (economic and technical) conditions.

[tecpilot]

Thanks Shawn,

:) :ok: :p


Forget “Skytech Helicopter Service” or other postboxes. They operate nothing except their telephone. The world is full of providers like this, if someone checks their informations, he will find allways the same helicopters or informations. Partly they tell about the same orders and photos. Mostly the providers doesn't come from this business and offer 26to loads with Mi-26 but have never seen a 500kg longline job and a Mi-26 only on a promotion tour. The system is easy, knowing a telephon number in the east, making a website and becoming a provider or sub-provider or sub-sub-sub provider. „Defence and Peace Keeping“ says it all. You can have the helicopters direct from Chechenia if the price is right. To what kind of possible customers is this offer good enough?

[tecpilot]

Sadly to report yesterday a Ka-32 helicopter with a Russian crew crashed in the Malaysian state of Sarawak, Kalimantan Island. Three Russian citizens died in the crash — the pilot, flight engineer and the mechanic. It's reported that the copter, engaged in timber-hauling, crashed under conditions of a torrential tropical rain and burst into flames in an outlying area of the jungle.

The last accident with a KA-32 in Malaysia was in April 2004. It was also a ship of the Vladivostok-based Avialift company. In this accident the pilot died.

Avialift was involved in several accidents with russian helicopters around the world. Another KA-32 accident happened on 06-15-99 in Indonesia. A Mi-8, crashed a few years ago in Haiti, where Avialift was working for the United Nations. All crewmembers died.
Avialift is only such a provider and "consultant" not a operator. hiring the ships from different russian sources.


http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:XxgHlNnGMkIJ:aist.dvo.ru/showfirm.asp%3FKZ%3Dgruz%26Kod1%3DAVLF+avialift&hl=eng

[RiskyRossco]

Even down here. (http://www.heliharvest.co.nz/heliharvest/TheHelicopters/)
FWIW

[hotzenplotz]

Doesn't the "ER-" registration mean the aircraft is registrated in Eritrea?

[Ian Corrigible]

There's a feature on the operation of Russian types in this week's Flight International here (http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/09/20/Navigation/197/201567/Heavy+horses.html).

I/C

[Cpt.Archer]

The "ER" is from Republic of Moldova....Eastern Europe. If I`m not mistaken HeliHarvest has two Mi-17, the ER-MHA and ER-MHB.

All I can say about the Russian helicopters is this: leave them for two years outside exposed to the elements(snow, wind, sand) and then go back to them...put some fuel in them and they`ll start like if they were in use all these years. Rugged mashines. I can say I have quite some experience on these beasts(Mi-8 and Mi-17). They will get any job you want done. We had to lift 100 tons of construction materials to an altitude of 1800meters. We did it in 3 days because of bad visibility on the mountain top.

And I can confirm tecpilot`s numbers :D

[Captain Pheremone]

TecPilot.... You make good and bad points. I don't have time to list all your errors right now but will get to them in time.

Firstly, an Mi 8 has 2 Hydraulic tanks, not one as you stated. The Primary and Secondary hydraulic systems are completely independent of each other except that they work through one set of servo actuators - unlike e.g. a Puma which has 2 sets.

Secondly, I have read every English translated Flight and Maintenance manual supplied by the factories and I challenge you to show me where your sentence "...For Gods sake don't pull the collective at more than 1 degree per second" is found.

Doesn't exist.

PS All your engine stats are quite easy to quote for anyone who can type "google".

[tecpilot]

Firstly, an Mi 8 has 2 Hydraulic tanks, not one as you stated. The Primary and Secondary hydraulic systems are completely independent of each other except that they work through one set of servo actuators - unlike e.g. a Puma which has 2 sets.

Just one tank holding 22l hydraulic fluid. Two independent hydraulic pressure circles, supplied by the single tank. But only one ist the primary system fullfilling all tasks. The secondary system is only a limited "Emergency System".
Limited as example on the following parts:
1. No AP. The AP is normally (1. system) full time on work. Damping the ship reactions and works on condition as a 3 axis AP.
2. Only manual deblocking of the collective. On the primary system the collective is deblocked by the hydraulic system.
3. No angle limiting on the swashplate as normally on the primary system.

Thats the situation on a common 20 years old ex soviet union Mi-8T with the TV2-117A.
Fully redundant only on the newer Mi-17, Mi171, Mi-8MTV, but this versions are also equipped with other engines, other electronics and APU. Nearly other helicopters...

I have flown the ship first time long before Google. Looking forward to my other errors. To err is human.

[offshoreigor]

Hey Tecpilot,

If the MI-8(MTV) is so great, why does the UN want to get rid of them?

Cheers,

:eek: OffshoreIgor :eek:

[NotHomeMuch]

Offshoreigor - no prob's with Russian heli's and only reason why UN wants to get shot of them is maybe they are tired of being bled dry by ex Eastern bloc operators offering plenty but delivering zilch as well as having too many accidents especially weather related ones. When operated by Western crew, which carries it's price which the UN seem no to want to pay, there are no accidents and the job gets done efficiently. The Mil-8MTV is an excellent machine and the Kamov KA32 isn't half bad either.

[Sammie_nl]

To continue on the topic, without slagging people of. Spanish helicopter operator Helisureste (http://www.helisureste.com/) signed a contract for the delivery of two Ka-32s. It doesn't say so on their website (or it might, don't speak Spanish).

And what about that air service between two small island in Malta, they've used the Mi-8T for a couple of years, and quite intensive in the summer season.

The south Korean are also using heaps and heaps of Kamovs, but this was done in a barter deal (debt for military hardware). So not completly fair to put it down to the qualities of the Helix....

Off all Russian helicopters I like the Ka-226 the most, looks ugly but I thought it was a nifty idea to be able to de-attach the passenger cabin and use it for aerial crane work instead. I like modular things....

[Cyclic Hotline]

Spain to purchase Russia's fire fighting helicopters
17:16 | 28/ 11/ 2005

MOSCOW, November 28 (RIA Novosti) - Spanish company Helisureste will purchase two fire fighting helicopters from Russia's Kamov producer under a contract signed late last week, the Russian company said Monday.

"Considering Helisureste's last contract, the Kamov will supply four Ka-32 helicopters in 2006," the company said.

The Spanish company has been operating Ka-32 helicopters since 1995. In 2004 and 2004, the company received four Ka-32 helicopters and has successfully employed them since then to put out fires in Europe, the company said.

Helisureste's technical director said the 2005 fire-fighting season proved the Ka-32 helicopters to be the best in the world in terms of their performance.

The Ka-32 is a multi-purpose helicopter certified in Russia, Canada, Switzerland, Taiwan, South Korea and Mexico. The helicopter is used for fire fighting, rescue operations, construction, assembly, transportation operations in the mountains, rough terrain at low and high temperatures and can perform day or night, despite low visibility.

[Dave Anderson]

The biggest reason that you won't see a Russian helicopter Type Certified in the US anytime soon is because ther is no Bilateral agreement betwen US and Russia that allows it. The only agreement that is in place as of today is to allow some Russian airplanes with US avionics, engines, and propellers into the US. These agreements are put together by departments of state or there equvalent agencies.

I have 1100 hrs in various Russian helicopters from the Mi-2 through the 35P and the Ka-32, and they are all good machines with some limitations, just like all helicopters. They would not be certifiable in the U.S. FAA world for standard category without a lot of waivers and changes. They are incredibly cheap to buy and for that reason would cause a lot of grief to the US OEM's who sell helicopters for big bucks. In my opinion, for the Secretaries of the U.S. Departments of State and Transportation to allow a bilateral opening the doors for Russian helicopter certification in any category except "Experimental" would cost someone their political career.airplanes

[offshoreigor]

Hey Tecpilot,

Can I ask you to review this previous posted link?

http://www.augustoheli.com/videostuff/videoarchive/FullScale/default.asp

Just scroll down to the vid called "Russian Helicopter crashes into trees"

Cheers,

:eek: OffshoreIgor :eek:

[tecpilot]

offshoreigor

i know this impressive tragic video. 10 years ago when i was flying the ship the bank of a Mi-8 T or P or PS was limited to 30°. :(

[Juan Rimenez]

For TECPILOT

INFO :

Skytech is operating since 92 at least three giant Mil MI 26T from Belgium - I applied for a job with them and still hope - saw them paradroping 11.000 skydivers over a few days during space boogie in Vichy France in 94

The boss of Skytech flew in with a N registered B206 BIII and flew a few dropping as captain on the MI 26 and same day he flew back to Belgium (?) - cool

You can see the MI 26T parked in Belgium 2 x MI 26T in EBCI airport and 1 x MI 26T in EBLG airport but mostly used for Fire Fighting in Italy and according to SEI of Canada (the Bambi bucket manufacturer) it's SKYTECH who co-developped the TBB the 20.000 per drop system for the MI 26

http://www.sonnet.com/usr/wildfire/mi26t.html

http://www.fly-net.org/aeromedia/mil26gb.html

Also a few of their helicopters MI 8/17 are in Pakistan with the Red Cross - I saw them

Not that bad .....for a mail box only -??-

when/where did you flew in Malaysia ???
Aye Juan:ok:

[tecpilot]

Juan,

just read the registration marks on the ships and you will see that Skytech seems to be the first "operator" in JAA land without incountry registered a/c. :) Operators need in JAA land an AOC, the crews need a valid national or JAA licence, the ships need a certification, all such points i couldn't find on Skytech :) :) :)
Mi-26 or Mi-8, anyway you will not find a belgium registered or operated ship in Pakistan. Operators of such ships you will find in Russia or Ukraina. All you will find are providers. The definition of Skytech to be an "operator" isn't the JAA definition... but operator isn't a trademark.

[Juan Rimenez]

re-aye

I was looking for the name of the Skytech's boss to contact him directly for a job , and your link to the Flight magazine answered me .

http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/09/20/Navigation/197/201567/Heavy+horses.html


But Lakhanisky .. that's not sounding very belgian ?? isnt it

thks & cheers

Juan,

:ok:

Aye, - Tec Pilot

.....A mail box supplying MI 17\'s to UK Gov. .......wohaaaaaaa

I should work for such a mail box

http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/09/20/Navigation/197/201567/Heavy+horses.html

no harm - cheers

Juan,:ok: :cool: :ok:

thks TECPILOT

I don\'t care whom is the \"operator\" but whom run the business front line and provide me with a job and pay.

May be if SKYTECH is working in such places and for such customers, they don\'t need to be an operator as may be they are THE operator ?

By the way, when I first visited them in early nineties they was running also some MD 500 commercially on sling jobs- and I am 100% sure those was belgian registered as I have a pic showing a Skytech\'s MD 500 with OO-TLK marks on.

Now how can they \"operate\" MI 26T as per JAA if the MI 26T uncertified or unregistered ? especially for governments like fire fighting in Italy ?

The MI 26T wit RA markings have been with Skytech around and everywhere in Europe since the nineties,- so what rules applies and to whom ?

And what about the crews if the licences are delivered according an ICAO standard (mine Spanish) with a correct type rating ?

Never the less, this Skytech\'s boss flew the N registered brand new B 206 and the RA registered MI 26 in the same hour, in front of me - so I guess that I should be able to be granted the same privileges by competent authorities - but how? and whom? any MI 17 free lance pilots around?




Aye Juan :ok: :ok: :ok:

[NotHomeMuch]

Having the right license is always the issue with flying Russian built equipment so there are possibly not too many freelance Mil drivers out there. If the machine is on the RA register a western pilot will not be able to fly it as Putin declared that only Russians will be issued with Russian licenses so trying with Skytech might be a lost cause, Juan. The Skytech fella obviously being Russian has Russian and FAA licenses.

There are other possibilities but then a pilot will be restricted to flying the machines registered to that country e.g. Bulgaria, Moldova etc and even then they will need to have an operator sponsor a license for them and there are not too many of those around.

[RomeoAlfa]

NotHomeMuch

You're right in part
>>>If the machine is on the RA register a western pilot will not be able to fly it as Putin declared that only Russians will be issued with Russian licenses so trying with Skytech might be a lost cause, Juan.

If this RA-registered ship operated under permanent or temp.contract in other countries then RUS,crew may be non-Russian,and even don't have to have rus-issued licences
BUT they need Type Rating in Mil-8/17 anyway.
So,we are in Russia may hire western pilots on ships with N-reg,or let's say P4-reg.:)
But you need to know Russian language

[tecpilot]

The "Helitankers" (page 1 of this thread) were registered in Sao Tome (S9). All of the Mi-14 were some years old ex military and nearly without civ papers and history books. But be sure, somewhere in this world it's possible to find a little ICAO country providing the crew and the ship with the necessary papers. And no sweet, they are not interested to look at ship and crew :) :) :)

But the idea to convert the ships was great! Really powerful water bombers. I'm not sure if the Mi-14 is at least in Russia civ certified :confused: But may be someone will convert one day the first SeaStallion to a Sao Tome civ Firefighter ;)

[Juan Rimenez]

Aye all,

I Looked also for a job a few years ago with Aerotech the german company operating those MI 14s

The MI 14 was type certified ( civilian) in Ukraine in a restricted category and those MI 14 have been operated sucessfully by Aerotech in Spain and in Portugal circa 95-98

At least two of those MI 14 was exported to the U.S - see Helicopter World magazine of October 96


For TEC PILOT // Sao Tome & Principe 's Civil Aviation airworthiness department are sub-contracted to VERITAS

http://www.bureauveritas.com/homepage_frameset.html

The same VERITAS provide airworthiness follow up on behalf of Civil Aviation offices with most of the French spoken countries including France and Luxembourg

You will for sure not get any "complaisance" from them, nor from Civil Aviation of Spain and Portugal who accepted those MI 14 to operate in their juridictions.

even if demilitarized those helicopters wasn't any sort of junks but all the contrary

Some older CH 53s are now converted by HEAVY LIFT USA for fire fighting in the U.S.

By the way the very first operator of Russian helicopters in USA was PHI of Lafayette USA, whom imported and registered one MI 10 Russian skycrane "Harke " and one MI 8 back in the mid-sixties - http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/mi-10-r.html

Apparently the PHI 's MI 10 ended his life in Central America few decades later

cheers - Juan:ok: