Bit of advice please!!!!!!!!

[What!!]

I may appear a bit nosey or rude, but what does an engineer earn and do airlines and contractors pays vary?

Also at 27 years is it to late in life to embark on a 3 year engineering course?

How easy is it to get a job once the course has been completed?

Please excuse all the questions but if i am doing this for 3 years then I need to know a few things.

Thanks for your help and hopefully, understanding.

[CONES R US]

What!!
It's never too late to start a new career, but you will have to ask yourself a few questions.
Do you want to work unsociable hours? most places work shifts, and by going back over some of the posts on this site, you can see the sort of thing people have to put up with.
Do you want recogmition for your effort? If you do, then forget it. Engineers are very often thought of as a necessary evil and lower down the food chain than aircrew and so not as important. This is vlatantly not true, however I have never worked in a company that treats engineers as well as pilots.
If you are starting from scratch, I would suggest going down the avionic route as opposed to Engines/airframe simply because the majority of the jobs are cleaner, and pay is better. That said, you have to pass more exams.
In the UK as a licensed Engineer salaries vary in the region 20-30K, plus overtime and sometimes bonuses (?). As a licensed contractor you get paid on an hourly basis which is currently £24-30 an hour, depending on licence coverage and type of aircraft approval you have.
An unlicensed fitter is earning around £12-13 an hour at the moment. It may be worth your while trying to get a fitters job for a few months to see if you like the job. 99% of these jobs are hangar based, so you get to know a bit about the aircraft as a whole, but the downside is that as a contractor, the company employing you is not bound to give you any sort of type courses.
Flight International has a job section in the back of it, and a list of agencies that can find you a contract or permanent job. A lot of these have web pages you can look up too.
I haven't woked for a UK air;ine for a few years, but when I did, I was on £22k as a fully rated avionic engineer. I now earn as much in a week as I used to in a month as a contractor, and I like my job.

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NO FAULT FOUND

[redtail]

Are you sure you want to trade a cut in pay for the "Romance Of Aviation"? Your skills and abilities may earn more in other fields. When I got started, airlines payed more than auto repair and skilled trades at factories. Now those fields have passed us by, wage wise.

[aeroguru]

If you do ,and the nice people with a straight jacket and a van don't come to take you away,make sure you get the right courses leading to the right qualifications as the industry is in turmoil and re standardising at the moment,until June 2001.

[spannersatcx]

What! visit the Association of Licensed Aircraft Engineers website at http://www.lae.mcmail.com and send them an e-mail and they will give you the advice you seek. As there is a shortage of licenced/experienced engineers now and for the foreseeable future.

[What!!]

Thanks for the advice so far.
The course is CAA approved leading to Aircraft Maintenance Engineers "A & C" Licences, without type rating, it is run by Northbrook College, Shoreham.
Anybody done it there? Is it good?

Thanks again you lot.

[cotos]

If you've got a spare 3 years for training purposes, go into HR or ITor any computer type business.. I've been in the business 19 years, got 4 year British Airways Apprenticeship, CAA Licences A&C, a Type Rated ICAO 2 Licence, Course certificates and previous Company Approvals on 4 Large commercial and Freighter Aircraft and on 4 different engine types applicable to those aircraft and have not found any Licensed work since July 1999. I've recently been offered work contracting at £12:00 per hour (unlicensed) on aircraft that I have never worked on, but this requires a lot of sheetmetalwork experience which I do not have. This would involve buying about £1000 pounds worth of sheetmetal tooling, setting up a limited company which the recent Inland Revenue changes have made of no financial benefit, and paying for and staying in a scabby B&B, all for the risk of being blown out on the first day due to lack of experience!!
Might I recommend you go into a field where you may take out some of what you put in.
Good Luck.
PS. Spannersatcx, where did you glean that snippet of info regarding a shortage of eng's??

[somefokker]

WHAT!!
Aircraft Engineers are some of the most demoralised workers you will meet at the moment. You should know the truth! As a licenced engineer you would have responsibility for deeming an aircraft carrying up to 400 people serviceable for flight. You would expect to be rewarded handsomely for this responsibility, truth is with shift pay and overtime working for a major airline in S.E. England you could expect about 26 to 32k per annum. You would be expected to do shift work in most positions. Most aircraft maintenance is carried out at night. You would be expected to work Christmas Day, New Years Eve etc. etc.
There is currently a worldwide shortage of Engineers (especially Avionic ones). So you should find employment within the industry, the downside of this shortage is that there are too few engineers doing the work and you may find yourself under severe pressure to perform.
One problem with doing an Ab Initio course is that although you come out of the course with your C.A.A licences, they are worthless without an Aircraft Type course and even then you still have to satisfy a companies Quality Department that you are experienced enough and capable of certifying their aircraft.
I don't wan't to put you off. This is still an exciting and challenging industry, it's just a pity that our employers won't reward us sufficiently for what we do.
Regards and Good Luck,
Somefokker

[trapper]

Like all jobs the pay will vary a lot between different companies. With a major company expect to earn about £32k, if you work in the right dept. o/time and away jobs boosts this to £40-£50k but it leaves you knackered. Its been over 3 years since i last contracted and at the time I was on £35 per hour in the U.K. However, at the same place there was an a+c guy on £19/hour. It all depends on how much your cover and experience is needed at the time of asking, plus of course how much you can negotiate without losing the job! Somefokker is quite correct about the poor morale. Also take note of the working hours. It can be stressful at times. Sounds all doom and gloom but like a lot of engineers I've been doing the job a long time (over 20 years).So perhapes its not all bad. You lose your licenses if you are out of the industry for any length of time so its not really a job you could have a long break from. (I think its 6 months experince every 2 years but I could be wrong, its all changing at the momment. There is a real shortage of engineers at the moment, especially avionics but this could all change with the new JAR mickey mouse license system coming in. If you want my advice "go for it" but be prepared for the **** !

[reracker]

Like they all said! One thing our firm has noticed with people from your background. Its all well and good having the qualifications, but when you have time off GET SOME GOOD EXPERIENCE. We are a very insular bunch and time served is more important than qualifications with your piers. There are guys working the aircraft with no cover for 30 years that know more about them than you will ever, even with licence courses. Learn from them !! There is no substitiute for experience.

[Flying Banana]

cotos, surprised you can't find licenced contracting, I've had the opposite problem, could find loads of licenced positions but nothing for unlicenced technician.

Try www.aviationjobsearch.com (http://www.aviationjobsearch.com) loads of licenced contracts there.

:)

[duffster]

I've been reading all this with interest. I too am thinking of trying to get
into the industry.

I'm nearly 27yrs old, I have a 2.2 degree in Mechanical Engineering and I
also hold a PPL. I have been working as a draftsman for the last three
years (earning 19K) and hate it.

I am planning to try and get a fitting job to see if aircraft maintenance is
for me or not.

Does any one know of any positions available?
Or, where the main maintenance hangers are in the south of England?

What type of course would be most useful for someone in my position?

Who are the main training providers and how can I find out more about
them..any ideas on cost?

I would like to get involved in the maintenance of GA aircraft.

Is there much work in this section?

I know CabAir have a hanger at Elstree - but what are the other main sites?

You have mentioned 'unsociable' hours'. What sort of hours are we talking
about? Is 'all' maintenance carried out at night?

You say there is a demand but although I've seen a few job adverts in the
last few weeks there does not seem to be a glut of them. Am I just looking
in the wrong places? (Pilot, Flyer and Flight magazine?)

What would you say was the best and the worst part to your job?

If these are foolish questions it is because I've only just started looking
into it.

Any help any one can give me would be gratefully received.

[magnet]

Theres some good advice here, forget GA if you want to earn some money, if your starting out choose avionics, there is a shortage, you'll have to get into an airline to get the right types, and then the world is your 'lobster' as they say.
If you want job security and perks stick with a permanent job with a big airline, but if you want loads of cash consider contracting, it might not suit everybody but you can easily make twice as much as you did in your old permie job, I certainly did.

Somefokker and Cones, do I know either of you? did you come through the 'Academy' (Aer Lingus apprenticeship)

[CONES R US]

Duffster,
try talking to some of the agencies listed in the back of 'Flight', or even ads placed in 'The Sun' on Tuesdays and Thursdays. They can fill you in on where there are vacancies etc.
I would definately go for avionics, because they are always in demand, but hat's not to say that A+C isn't. It's probably because I'm a conehead myself (also known as a spook, fairy, lekky, greenie..etc).
On an airline, most routine work is done at night as much as possible, because that's when the aircraft are on the ground most, but all airlines differ.
If you work in a hangar for a third party company - such as FLS - you would work on an aircraft that may be in there for a couple of weeks or longer, so most work is done during the day, but night shifts are common too.
There are benefits to the job, but again it all depends on who you work for. Most companies have interline agreements which means you can get rebated air travel, car hire etc, and some free flights on your own airline, so someone like BA would be better than a single aircraft operation out of backwater, now-where.
Engineers are professional people, who deal with (mostly) professional people, under varying pressures of time, resources and weather - not to mention management.
The only way to see, is to go out and have a go, I wish you luck.

Magnet,
I've never worked for Aer Lingus, but I have worked in Dublin on 146's.

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NO FAULT FOUND

[duffster]

thanks for the advise !

why is there such a demand for avionics ?
do most people find this area hard work and so opt for airframes ?

[skydrolsniffer]

Guys,

The "noble and respected" career of the LAE is a thing of the past (if it ever was) and anybody considering a future in this line of work really needs to know what he or she is getting into. You can get by on the salary of an LAE but you will never get rich. As airlines come under more and more commercial pressure the engineer will come under more pressure to perform and will get less for it (in either respect or pay).
As others have mentioned, the hours are lousy and the rewards are few. The only real satisfaction comes in completing a job well done.

There will always be a need for us as airlines have trouble attracting people to the industry these days and fleets are expanding worldwide. Another thing to consider is career prospects, if you want to be still working nightshift at age 60 then go for it. Not a lot of guys get off the floor.

I will never encourage my own son to go into this line. Why should he? For considerably less training anybody could get into IT or telecommunications or any other engineering field and probably make better money, a better furture and work normal hours.

Keep those big jets flying!

[cotos]

What!! Don't do it!!!!!

[somefokker]

Duffster,
Historically, airline apprenticeship schemes have usually had a bigger intake of A+C apprentices as opposed to Avionic ones. Also the A+C guys used to only need two licences - Airframe and Engines to get by. Avionic used to be split up into individual trades of Electrical, Instrument, and Radio. This was o.k. on older aircraft but todays digital aircraft are very integrated when it comes to avionic systems so you really need to have all the avionic licences to function properly. (This is also better for employers who only have to employ one avionic guy instead of three)! To be a really useful conehead you would need to have the CAA LWTR's in Electrics, Combined Category Instrument/Autopilot, Radio Comms and Nav, Radio/Radar, and Compass compensation. Thats 5 licences for avionic guys to get and only two for A+C guys. The net result is that A+C guys could be fully licenced within a year or so, but it would take an avionic guy at least two years but usually longer.

Magnet,
Yes I'm Shamrock qualified from the early eighties. I also work on 146's but for a different outfit to Cones-r-us (I think).

[This message has been edited by somefokker (edited 26 August 2000).]

[magnet]

Somefokker, did you used to eat a lot of Chinese food up to about a year ago?

[greaseytech]

What!

You sound like a bloke who has a goood brain in his head. Why not use it to gain a pilot's license as they are treated with far more respect that LAMEs, work fewer hours and that is strictly regulated by law, and they earn considerably more money. In short, pilots have a better lifestyle and have more free time to enjoy it than anyone else in the aviation business, and if I had my time again I would fly for a living, not maintain.

[near enuf is good enuf]

Completely agree with the "soiled one".
Fly them pal!

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So that you may not be the martyred slaves of Time,
get drunk, get drunk,
and never pause for rest!
With wine, poetry, or vitrtue,
as you choose!"

[whiskey]

Don't forget that there is the massive world of Aircraft Maintenance Support services, to name a few: Reliability, Planning, Technical Support, Technical Records, Design, Quality etc. Good Luck. The aircraft maintenance industry is exiting despite the lower salaries.

[Jedi Knight]

Do make sure you know what you are getting into.
Outside 9 to 5 hours,loads of commercial pressure and plenty of modern management bull****.
Apart from that you can have great satisfaction from what you have achieved but that can be offset by the responsibility of having to sign for peoples lives in the air.
Go for Avionics as that pays more than A+C.

[Blacksheep]

What and duffster,

If your eyesight is OK and you can walk in a straight line without falling over, go and join the Winged Master Race!

Stay out of engineering unless you are prepared for a life of endless shift work, low pay and contempt. I've become immune to the insults because I love aeroplanes, love the interesting challenge of problem solving and am addicted to the rush of fixing the unfixable in less time than is humanly possible. Its a hard life but we do it because we find it fascinating.

In other words, its an attitude thing. I suspect that if you have to ask the question, then our kind of life isn't for you.

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[somefokker]

Magnet

You know me so well

[Grubbykev]

Hiya guys, Well duffster if you want to try b4 you buy as they say, why don't you contact Wynnwith on 01483748201 & try a short contract down @ ATC in Lasham, Hants. Their No. is 01256356123. They carry out C & D checks on a variety of older A/C mainly 737's & DC8's & it makes for a good training ground as someone mentioned earlier experience counts for a lot & most of the guy's there have been in aviation maintenance for a fair ole time.
By the way Blacksheep you've hit the rivet right on the head mate. It's definately something that you HAVE TO love enough to put up with all the unsociable hours & other B/ s**t that goes with the job most of the time. It's a kharma thing. You only get satisfaction of job well done. Nothing more.

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So many brake packs, so little time. (:¬(

[mecenic]

WHAT.....There has been a lot of truth spoken on this thread. Get smart and go fly, can be relatively boring but you will have the best office. I worked for a company once that treated engineers better than pilots, it was a maintenance org! ;)

[mecenic]

WHAT.....There has been a lot of truth spoken on this thread. Get smart and go fly, can be relatively boring but you will have the best office. I worked for a company once that treated engineers better than pilots, it was a maintenance org! ;)

[fishtank]

I found a great deal of information about jobs available, salarys etc when I visited http://www.aviationjobsearch.com recently.

You should take a look next time you get on the net.

Good luck What!!

[sasha]

This is What!!
I had to use my girlfreinds username & password. (I forgot mine)

Thanks for the advice guys.
I think I will do the Pilot thing, although it is a tad more expensive to complete the pilot training.

I'll keep at it though.
I work for an airline already, so that may help when looking for a flying job.