Aerobatics Endorsement

[TeleMaPhone]

I am thinking that in my next stae of flying I would like to get my aerobatics endorsement. I have noticed (while researching) that you can obtain this by training in all different types of aircraft. I am a little tight on money, and was wondering if the plane you train in actually makes a difference with this endorsement, and if so what is the best plane?
Thanks
TMP

[pall]

Why not try a C152 Aerobat. Most pilots have spent time on the 152 and it is easy to fly and very forgiving. Also cheap to hire by the hour.

It depends on what you want to do though. If you go for a Citabria you get tail wheel experience (and endorsement) as part of the deal. A bit more challenging to fly though.

I looked the Tiger Moth but too costly to fly with instruction.

[scrambler]

Couple of good Melbourne options.
1. Have a search for Tooradin Airport, Chris Burns is instructing there, or
2. Royal Vic at MB, see David Pilkington.

You should get a good grounding from either of those two guys in aeros. IMHO, like many facets in this industry there are many willing to accept money for the lessons, but a small number who will give you true value for the money spent.
Do the Tailwheel endo with it, it will teach you a fair bit on aircraft handling.
Good luck with the aeros, highly recommended

[TeleMaPhone]

I am more Central Vic. I think Ballarat do aerobatics, but in a YAK, which i would presume would be quite expensive? I am definately interested in doing it in a tailwheel.
Is there much theory to accompany the endorsement? If so, any books you could recommend?
Thanks
TMP

[7gcbc]

Telemaphone,

No real theory, however any good instructor is probably going to quiz you on stall, Vne and entry speeds to each manouvere along with errors and what happens if it all goes wrong in a given manouvere.

As to the type, 152 is a great little plane, but the yoke and the throttle controls don't lent themselves to aeros in a graceful way, that said you'll be a past master at energy management if you do it in a 152 (not an easy sequence a/c), my preference would be a tailwheel with a stick. - more natural if that makes sense ?

Books, there are many , however you can't go wrong with :

Geza Szurovy and Mike Goulians' Basic Aerobatics,
ISBN 0-07-0629226-9
rrp Approx 40-50 aud.

cheers

7g

[djpil]

I like to support local products first: Dave Robson's book, Aerobatics: Principles and Practice (http://www.aviationtheory.net.au/aero.html) A good read is "Aerobatics" by Neil Williams - an oldie but a classic. The next book to buy, if you're getting into competitions, is Better Aerobatics by Alan Cassidy (http://www.worldaerobatics.com/better/better.htm)

CASA's draft Manual of Standards identifies the knowledge requirements, for example:
- positive & negative g limits
- rolling g limits
- engine limitations
- phyiological effects eg G-LOC
- symptoms of an aircraft overstress
- Va, Vne & Vno
- minimum altitude

Have a look at what the MOS says about spinning - you'll need to understand the basics of spinning and reasons for the recovery actions.

I belive that there is a Citabria available at Sheparton, not sure who the instructor is. Give Pip Borrman a cal, I'm sure that he'd be happy to advise you.

[TeleMaPhone]

I have been looking at the Citabria (few google searches) and it looks like a nice aircraft. I also found the Chipmunk and was wondering what people's opinion on that is?!
What would you say would be the number of hours needed to getthis endorsement (would be my first time in a tail dragger too)? Are their any extra costs ontop of the dual aircraft hire if you are doing aerobatics?
Thanks Again
TMP

[Di_Vosh]

Dude,

A basic aeros endorsement should be around 6 hours dual (If you're combining that with a taildragger it may be a few more). There should be no additional costs, apart from the theory book (I used Dave Robsons).

I did mine in a C152, which (as has been mentioned) gives you a very good understanding of conservation of energy.

I posted on this back in January:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=158532

Cheers,

and ENJOY!

DIVOSH

[tinpis]

Chipmunky is a bit demanding and and if you have grown up on spam cans would prolly scare you silly.
Go for the CitaBRA and you get a little docile tailwheel exposure at the same time.

[Sunfish]

I've done a bit with DjPil, and will continue once my ears settle down.

Downside: Nystagamus which I have to work through.

Upside: Citabria is a joy to fly with DjP as an instructor. Even when it is prodded it is just a lovely aeroplane!

[scrubed]

Just teach yourself, that's what I did. None of it's all that hard. :rolleyes:


Aileron Roll:

Just pull the nose up and...... RRRROOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLL....!!!

Then stop.


Loop

Begin in the straight and level but make sure you're going really fast. Close your eyes and pull the stick back really hard.

You will feel a little heavy. Count to ten, then release back-stick and open your eyes.

If the scene looks exactly like it did when you closed them, you did it right - well done!

If your view is of someone's swimming pool rapidly getting larger, you screwed it. Close your eyes and start pulling again. Hard.

Consider saying something kool on the R/T like, "Timberrrrrr......!!"



There, I just saved you 100s of dollars!

[djpil]

You're right, scrubed, its not all that hard. There are a few good books which seem to be written for self-learners - take them in the cockpit with you and follow the detailed instructions. Unlike Australia, there are some countries where spinning and aerobatic endorsements are not required and it is quite legal to self-learn. It has worked for many people. You should consider the accident history too and assess the risks. One risk mitigation action is to wear (and have a plan to use) a parachute. Then find an aeroplane.
I've lost too many friends to recommend that, however. Consider a spinning and aerobatic endorsement as a licence to go out by yourself afterwards and really learn aerobatics safely.
TeleMaPhone, I trust that you're also looking elsewhere on the net for information.

[tinpis]

:p :p So..yer rock up to a flying school with a book on aerobatics and draggin a parachute , and ask if you can hire a plane????

Yeh spose that would work.
djpil...er.. curious as to how many friends you have lost?

[The Messiah]

So scrubed you taught yourself? So to get that final polish on a sequence of aeros do you just polish yourself?

Sounds like it.;)

[PS2A_yay!]

Why not go all out and jump into a Pitts S2A when you've done your initial aeros endorsement.

This thing will tweak the ears of anyone!!

[NZDP]

May I reccomend the Robin R2160 (Alpha 160A) for training. There are a few around in oz and are a fantastic aerobatic trainer. I did my Aeros rating in a 152 and then later convirted to a R2160 and would never go back. 152 Just doesn't cut it for me any more.

[sir.pratt]

aeros in a 152 are fine if you don't mind the climb back to altitude - it's a bit like riding a 125cc race bike (ironically has the same numbers....) on a big race track -you've got to use momentum all the time. they do all you need for a beginner aero pilot, and are docile enough to get you into trouble, but help you out of it when you do . i would be reluctant to self teach spinning, as if you stuff it up, chances are you'll fall on your back into a spin, and being confident in the spin (when doing aeros) is probably the biggest thing to keeping you in the blue stuff. and from experience, losing it into a spin at the top of a slow barrel roll with 2300rpm on the clock, you wanna be confident getting it under control in the spin!

[djpil]

NZDP - there are no Robins in this part of the world.

TeleMaphone said that he was "little tight on money" so that limits the options. A tailwheel endorsement will add significant $ so probably leaves the Cessna Aerobat - as has been mentioned - a great trainer. That narrows the choice of books down too.
The Basic Aerobatic Manual (http://www.kershnerflightmanuals.com/) by Bill Kershner.

[PennyBenjamin]

I have flown with a number of very good aeros pilots over the years. I insist you go to every effort to fly with Chris Burns - not only one of the best aero's pilots and teachers in the country but he is a top bloke.

Flying aeros is not all about the aircraft and with a bloke like Chris he can teach you anything in a aircraft capable of reasonable performance. He is also the kind of bloke who won't waste your time and money - an that is why he isn't liked among the sausage factories{GFS}, ie. because he is too good. Even if you get an aircraft from somewhere or someone I'm sure they will let Chris teach you in it - if they know him and his excellent reputation.

If your out there Chris - Thanks mate - I hope all is still going well and your still putting together your guitars. Safe Flying old mate.

[Fiesty Ferret]

Scrubed, If you don't die, can you autogragh my "crash comic" when your story of "...and there I was, upside down and spinning, all I was doing was a stall turn!" ends up in it?

TeleMaPhone, save some cash and do it right , with quality instructor and in something built for the job.

C152 Aerobats just don't cut it. The others will bang about how they teach you "Energy management etc, etc.", but you will WASTE a lot time climbing before you even start the actual lesson.

Go and find Instructors that are expierenced and current.
Some of the "sausage factory" instructors (GFS - but not Chris Burns) are lucky to have 10 hours of aero time on the Decafs before they start training chums like you good self. Some of them are noticably scared about teaching things like loops according to an ex student.

Here are a few that I know of. Kevin Peat, don't if he is still instructing but ask at Peter Bini's.
Phil Unicomb at Action Aerobatics in Maitland NSW
Chris Burns as perviously mentioned by PennyBenjamin
Darren Williams at Ballarat. Top bloke and good teacher He flys the YAK at BLT, 3 minutes from take off to 4500 agl. What does the aerobat do that in?
David Pilkington at MB, one of the most Experienced around, used to be factory test pilot on the Pitts.

Good Hunting, Fiesty Ferret (could'nt get WILD WEASEL)

[djpil]

djpil...er.. curious as to how many friends you have lost? tinpis - more than one, and one is too many - message me if you really want an answer - the point I was trying to make was that there are enough risks without trying to teach yourself aerobatics. Scrubed didn't really mean it though, did he?

save some cash and do it right , with quality instructor and in something built for the job Feisty (or should I call you WILD) - I agree with all of the above but not what you stated next C152 Aerobats just don't cut it True, you do waste time climbing so it takes longer. In my opinion, everyone should do a tailwheel endorsement - but if TeleMaPhone chooses to stick to trikes then the Cessna is indeed a good choice. I'd be happy to take you through the Sportsman sequence in one. I admit to be even happier in one of the other types mentioned but thats not the subject of the debate.
Thanks for your other comments.

[djpil]

Weather in Melbourne this weekend seems ideal for sitting in the hangar talking about aerobatics, or continuing this debate.

To add to Fiesty's list of instructors:
Dick Gower at Coldstream (http://www.rvac.com.au/coldstream/) , Laurie Byrnes at MFS (http://www.mfs.com.au/) and Graeme Hodges at Civil (http://www.civil.com.au/) . Laurie uses a Decathlon while Dick and Graeme fly Cessnas.

Aerobatics also done at Tristar (http://www.tristaraviation.com.au/) and Tyabb (http://www.pac.asn.au/) but I don't know the instructors and heard no feedback on their training. Both have Cessnas.

The Aerobatic Club has their monthly practice day this Sunday but it doesn't look promising due to the weather.

Off now - to MB to sit in the hangar and talk aerobatics.

[NZDP]

NZDP - there are no Robins in this part of the world.

Sure there are. Around 19 in Oz at the moment with more on the way. Sydney Aerobatic school currently opperate a fleet of 6 as their primary aerobatic trainer. Also, we are manufacturing them over here in hamilton,- is accross the ditch not in your part of the world ? :p

[scrambler]

NZDP, I think he meant around Melbourne. A bit far to drive to Sydney or indeed "across the ditch" for an endorsement

[djpil]

The register shows 9 Robin 2160's in Australia. RVAC in Melbourne is looking at getting some Alphas (see the newsletters on their website) so I'm looking forward to them rolling off the NZ production line. From the manufacturer's website, it seems that production has not yet commenced.

[djpil]

Some of the "sausage factory" instructors ... are lucky to have 10 hours of aero time on the Decafs before they start training chums like you good self. Some of them are noticably scared about teaching things like loops according to an ex student.
I don't doubt you, Fiesty, but the same situation applies to other aspects of flying training too. I've known instructors to be scared of demonstrating a wing drop at the stall. Getting off topic here but I see that the draft MOS and the new instructor's guide talks about stalling from a turn, not sure how many students get that exercise.
Regardless of experience, the real question is whether the instructor is competent (we're only talking a basic aerobatic course here at this time) and can teach the appropriate knowledge and skills then judge when the student is safe to fly aerobatics solo. I agree with the recommendation to seek out an experienced instructor, who you would expect to meet those criteria (that recommendation applies to everything, not just aerobatics).

[VMC4ME]

TeleMaPhone - U R crazy! If you think there's no theory in Aero's you are HORRIBLY mistaken and may one day join many others who probably thought that before they tried to spin their aircraft to 100ft.

Look at the Citabria that crashed in SA a couple of months back. A couple of small changes, like passenger and a downwind component were enough to make him come unstuck and crash and burn.

Chris Burns is temporarily out of action, but will be back on deck shortly. He is no doubt your best option around Melbourne. He had been recently teaching at Tooradin in the Decatlhlon - VH-BWM. He certainly can put that aircraft through its' paces. There's a picture of it on their web-site. www.tooradinflyingschool.com.au

Other than that, a great coach would be Paul Andronicue in Melbourne. He flies a Laser and rivals Pip Boorman in airshow type displays. PM me if you want his details.

[djpil]

Reading over some of these posts leads to another thought of advice I often give to people seeking flying training, not just aerobatics:
Choose an instructor that you can get on with. The right instructor for the individual is a factor as important as the choice of aircraft type. And, no, he's not going to use my airplane.

On the other hand, most instructors don't have the luxury of being able to tell students to go and find some-one else but more should - see this article at Avweb. (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182215-1.html)
The five hazardous attitudes identified by the FAA are:
Invulnerability
Anti-authority
Impulsivity
Mr. Macho
Resignation
It is rarely just one of the five hazardous attitudes identified by the FAA, but rather two or more of them that form links in the accident chain. Any one of those is not good for your health in aerobatics.

[cobber74]

i saw on the web that overseas there is a Boeing 737 for hire , for aerobatics! its only $97.00 AUD per hour.! cheap. you can do everything in it, spin's spiral dives, wingovers, barrel roll, some big 15degree banks! wow, everything .. look it up under "737 aeros" go for it mate.!

[Buck Rogers]

VMC4ME

Paul Andronicue in Melbourne. He flies a Laser and rivals Pip Boorman WHAT THE !!!!!!

[4SPOOLED]

CAP10B's seem pretty good, and they are a tail wheel!!

[djpil]

The CAP 10B is nice, Dave Robson swears by them. (http://www.aviationtheory.net.au/aero.html) A CAP 10C would be even nicer. Doesn't go as well as a Laser but we're still discussing basic training here. Unfortunately, no CAP's in Victoria either.

[4SPOOLED]

they havea nice cap 10b at ypjt.....

i have been eyeing it off for a while...may be a good way to get tail wheel in the bible aswell....

[djpil]

Go for it 4SPOOLED. You never know, you could rival Paul A before long.

[djpil]

Just saw this online, from info in another forum:
Just some ideas for the displays are, high speed pass inverted, ribbon cut, loops , rolls , spins, low pass inverted, High speed passes travelling at over 450 KM/H with an instant pull inverted and loads more. Has anyone seen that instant pull inverted?

[Triple Captain]

Action: http://www.aerobatics.com.au/ or maybe ACST http://www.acst.com.au/

[VMC4ME]

So "BUCK ROGERS" you know otherwise? you think Pip is better than everyone else? Don't go catching Chris Burns disease. Pip's show is a lot of smoke and mirrors and is too expensive for most airshows now, which is why Paul gets invited to them all now days.

[inthesoup]

With regards to R2160's in Australia, Yes there is a few of them, but the best one stands out in YPJT where do the aero's with Joy, then make a deal with the yank and you'll also be taught on how to do arrester cable landing practices as well?????

[AcroAce60]

Pip is up there with the best, in my opinion. Very few others in the country could match his ability as an airshow aerobatic pilot. Pay your money and take your pick. I'd probably even get a few gigs if I did it for free.

PS: what disease is this?

[VMC4ME]

It's a fast spreading disease that aerobatic pilots get. It's a disease that causes them to bitch with each other frequently about who gave who the low level endorsement and who actually has a ground level endorsement and who dobbed in who for doing aeros illegally, etc, etc, it's soooooo damn painful when people are infected with "aerobatic-envy" disease.

There are other airshow performers out there who are willing to do it for far less and who can put on a show. A fellow David Kilpatric (hope I've got his name right) did a nice stolen aircraft routine in his 2 seater Pitts recently at an airshow.

People, particularly airshow regulars get sick of seeing the same guys there.

[AcroAce60]

I see, the dreaded "aerobatic-envy" disease! I wish I could be as good as Paul A & Chris B. I don't go to many airshows so hopefully in little danger of getting the disease myself. Last I heard only two people in the country have very low level aerobatic approvals and only one of those names has been mentioned in this thread.
Alan Kilpatrick is a good pilot and keen. Nice guy as well.

Some-one was telling me about that Citabria accident the other day. A lot more wrong than just a few small changes. That post at aus.aviation is apparently accurate. I don't mind so much if the pilot is solo, I just look the other way and hope I hear no more than the little Cessna sounding like a Pitts. No point in dobbing anyone in - there's no evidence.

[AcroAce60]

People, particularly airshow regulars get sick of seeing the same guys there. VMC - thats the difference between us - I can watch competition pilots day in - day out fly the same sequence and appreciate the skill involved. Competition aerobatics is not a spectator sport and we like it that way. Display aerobatics, nothing wrong with smoke and mirrors.

I go to an airshow and I make sure that I watch Pip because he is first class. I agree, see the same display several times and there's less interest in watching it. I don't feel an urge to see another display by Paul A, except possibly to see how he goes in his new aeroplane.

he isn't liked among the sausage factories{GFS}, ie. because he is too good Nope, PennyBenjamin, that is definitely not true.

The CAP 10B is nice I disagree, the CAP has some problems, quite a few have broken wings in flight. And, aerobatics should be flown in tandem seat aeroplanes to get the right perspective.

There's an interesting article on AVWEB about aerobatic trainers. (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182690-1.html)

[Fiesty Ferret]

This is all well and good. There are many fine aerobatic performers out in the airshow circuit and certainly Pip is amongst the best of them. Have you looked at his site lately and his new paint job? www.edgeaerobatics.com.au

However, most of these people you mention are not instructors in aerobatics. They may be coaches but they are not instructors for you to get an endorsement from.

FF

[AcroAce60]

Thanks for the link Feisty. I saw it at Avalon and had to say I preferred the previous scheme.

Back to the Yak 52 that some-one mentioned. One of my friends flew it recently, it certainly gets to 5000 ft quickly. Burns 150 litre per hour when working it though. I'd rather fly a cheaper aeroplane - I like flying instead of sitting on the ground looking at others flying.

Didn't some-one suggest getting a good coach then go to one of the hacks or young lads for the endorsement?

[Fiesty Ferret]

Hi,
someone is yanking your chain. A friend owns a Yak and the fuel consumption is 80-90 litres perhour during aeros. This makes it worthwhile. Quick to climb to height and acceptable fuel burn, so it is cost effective.

FF

[AcroAce60]

You're right (http://www.russianaeros.com/running_costs.htm) - either that or my memory is failing me. It was after a glass or two of red wine that he told me the fuel burn.

[VMC4ME]

AeroAce - Stay tuned. Paul A's new EXTRA300S will be appearing at airshows soon! It's a fantastic machine and will kick butt over the Edge 540. An Extra recently won the world unlimiteds, so who better than Paul to put it through its paces... He took delivery of it last Tuesday.

[AcroAce60]

Which "world unlimiteds" was this? At the World Aerobatic Championships" (http://events.fai.org/aerobatics/fullresults.asp?id=2793&gender=o) held recently the highest place for an Extra was 29th!
Alan Cassidy analysed the performance of all the types a few years ago, including power/weight, roll rate, vertical penetration etc and the Extra was noticeably behind the Sukhoi, CAP 232 and Edge. However, at that level, there aren't that many people who can take advantage of the differences between the types within each class. Takes much effort to continue to operate at that level, I hope Paul does well with it. I've heard that people are sniffing around (or at?) his Laser.

[VMC4ME]

I'll ask him. He told me that the other day.... a souped up Extra thrashed the Edge's...

Some people have been checking out his Lazer. It's in good order and is reasonably priced.

[AcroAce60]

But he hasn't got a souped up Extra has he? I've heard that he's been trying to sell the Laser for ages and people are starting to look in the USA for a good aeroplane.

[Squawk7700]

AeroAce stop being a tosser. The Extra is a kick-arse machine as VMC4ME says... there certainly isn't many of them around and they put on a great show. I look forward to the next airshow where they are both performing. The Extra is much bigger and has a far better "presence" than the Edge.

[Diversion]

Just to keep all the facts straight.

Extra 300S wingspan is only 2" bigger than a E540.

The E540 is 172 Lbs lighter and rolls quicker with a 10Kt higher VNE.

The Red bull pilots fly a variity of aircraft

What about the CAP as an aerobatic aircraft?

[AcroAce60]

I checked with the Yak fuel flow (this is a -50) and he confirmed 150 lires/hour doing aerobatics. 60 for cruise.

The CAP 232 is a very capable aeroplane too. As I said before, not too many people can take advantage of the differences between these aeroplanes. A 4 cylinder machine is plenty for me.

[F/O Bloggs]

Try a DECATHLON.

If you are short of a quid, try joining the RAAF. There you will definitely learn how to do aeros.

:cool:

[VMC4ME]

Sorry, I should have clarified that the Extra won the 4 minute unlimited category - the important one where it all happens!

2 inches is 2 inches! I'd like another 2 inches if I could have it.... on my wings, that is.

[AcroAce60]

Of course, the 4 minute, so important that it doesn't count towards the world championship.

F/O Bloggs - the RAAF rejected me a few years ago so I'll try the decathlon.

[sir.pratt]

this is almost as much fun as holden vs ford!

[VMC4ME]

So the RAAF rejected you AcroAce? You don't happen to work at a certain Melb based school with a Royal background would you?

[AcroAce60]

Nope not me.

prune didnt allow that short an answer so need to pad this out

VMC - you hang around hangar 9? 7? 6? 2? 1?

I don't really care about Holdens or Fords.

RAAF training is undoubtedly first class but the aerobatics they do is limited. They don't have anything which can really do a stall turn or a flick roll.

[VMC4ME]

None of the above; don't hang around that airport. Too many wanna-bees with their blue/black pants, white shirts and gold bars. Drop in there occasionally to visit friend in atc and to do a nice 200+knot "missed approach" with blessing of atc.

[F/O Bloggs]

AcroAce,

Sorry to hear about the RAAF.

There was a Decathlon at the flying school at PT Cook a couple of years ago, I don't know if it still operates there.

Oh and the PC9 can do a mighty fine stall turn if you don't start putting the rudder in until about 60kts.
A flick roll takes no skill. (You can do some funky stuff with the elevator blanking attributes of the PC9)
:ok:

[tinpis]

PEANUTS ! POPCORN ! GET YER PEANUTS !

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/boxing2.gif

[jb05]

finally,someone with a sense of humour!:O

[Woomera]

Sense of humour or not, no threats here.W

[AcroAce60]

Oh and the PC9 can do a mighty fine stall turn
thanks for the info, Bloggs - I dunno if the message has got to other PC-9 pilots.
Sorry to hear about the RAAF. No problems, no regrets (I wouldn't want to join an organisation that didn't want me anyway)
a few words to set u straight on an aformentioned topic of which u obviously know little about
I'm more informed but none the wiser. I like to make up my own mind about people. One thing I've learnt - the further away people are the more likable they are. Mother-in-law is one case in point. :ugh:

[Woomera]

Behave!!! Any more spats and the thread disappears!!!

:mad:

Woomera

[tinpis]

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/admin_power.gif

[radman]

did aerobatic training in a 150 aerobat just to round off my flying and loved the aeros so much went out and bought a ex raaf CT4 which i love to fly,

I think aerobatic training should be part of ppl , even if you don't want to go out and bust a move on the weekend or compete should you find yourself in an unusual attitude or a spin you will have confidence in getting your wings level.:cool:

[Evil Ultralights]

Acroace said I checked with the Yak fuel flow (this is a -50) and he confirmed 150 lires/hour doing aerobatics. 60 for cruise.
Mate, no way.
I own a Yak 52 and let me tell you if you are burning 150 litres per hour you HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM.
There is no way this is so. Someone is telling you porkies.
The only way I can think of someone using that much fuel in a Yak 52 is doing aeros with drop tanks installed and then I think it would be a might accomplishment.

Evil Ultralights

[AcroAce60]

I guess the difference is the question I asked is different than what we're talking about here. A Lycoming IO-360 can burn 60 litres of fuel at full throttle but if you asked me how much it burnt doing aerobatics I'd say 45 litres per hour.
So, I believe everyone about the Yaks.

[Mere Mortal]

150 litres per hour I would run out of fuel if I was burning 150 litres per hr.
I know the person who you were talking to at Avalon and he would not have said that.
The tanks only hold 120 litres by the way and we have been up for an hour at aerobatic power setting and still landed with heaps of fuel in the tanks.
MM

[AcroAce60]

The CAP 232 is a very capable aeroplane tooI take that back, all grounded following a wing structural failure.

Mere Mortal - I wasn't talking to anyone at Avalon about Yaks.

Last Sunday at MB, I saw Pip fly again - great stuff.

[AcroAce60]

Anyone esle see the aerobatic display at Narromine last weekend? To say the least it didn't impress me at all - p poor.
I should've gone to Temora, was supposed to be a great event.

[A4G]

VMC4ME et al: Pip Borrman is the premier aerobatic display pilot in Oz and one of the best in the world. FACT! That is why he was approached by Castrol for full sponsorship? Paul & Chris are just not in his league and never will be. Castrol were looking around Oz for an aerobatic pilot to sponsor and approached Pip because he is head and shoulders above the others and he is the most professional by far. This is a multi billion $$$ company and they do their home work. If you are passing through Shepp drop in and have a look at his set up and talk to the man himself. (He has a zero ****** tollerence so be warned) You will very soon realise why he is doing displays, air shows and Castrol events across the country. The man is a total pro. Chris has been around forever and has never really achieved anything in the aerobatic world. Sadly he never has a nice word to say about anyone else in the aerobatic community. Or hasn't over the last 20 years. Paul A is a nice guy but just not in Pips class. That is not a slight on Paul just a fact. If others knew the sacrifices Pip has made and the price he's paid to get to where he is perhaps they wouldn't be so quick to judge. As far as performance is concerned, why do you think Pip went for the Edge? He did his homework & bought the aircraft with the highest performance & the highest development potential. The research and development he continues to do on his engine & airframe is amazing! He is breaking new ground with his gyroscopic manouvres all the time. If you want to say he's borring then watch Chris or Paul's displays and then watch Pip. They are just not in his class. Better still give Pip a call and ask him to take you for a spin in a duel Pitts & find out for yourself. Pip is recognised by Castrol and some of the best profesional arobatic pilots in the world as one of the best most professional display pilots around. We are lucky to have him living in Oz & we should support him.

[AcroAce60]

weelll said A4G!

[Squawk7700]

Well unlike most of the PPrune armchair pilots I actually attended the flyin/airshow. 'twas a good weekend with over 400 aircraft on the ground which was very impressive.

As for Pip v's Paul, well for change I was in the croud watching which I don't normally do. Pip was doing his usual airshow routine, however the placement of his show was pathetic and towards the afternoon sun. As a result it was really hard to see what he was doing and to be honest he did no particularly special moves in his aircraft.

Paul on the other hand who performed later in the show, did his display right in front of the crowd and away from the sun glare and to be honest looked far more spectacular. At one stage when he reversed out of the cloud of smoke and flicked the aircraft vionently onto it's back I literally saw people in the crowd's jaws drop to the ground with a noticeable "oohh" as he did this; that just didn't happen with Pip I'm afraid.

The only thing that let Paul down on the day was that his commentator didn't fully know his routine which gave an element of Paul not looking like he knew what he was doing.

In summary:

Paul 1 point for a great display with come cool moves
Pip 0 for performing in the afternoon sun
Paul 0 for a dodgey commentary
Pip 1 for doing his own commentary

Pip 1
Paul 1

On a par and I'm not the only one that thought so....

And to be honest, Pip's performance was like he was only doing it because he had to be there. He did it for like 5 minutes, then left almost straight away. It's like he was only there for the money which is a real shame.

PS: How on earth did Chris get thrown into the mix with the likes of Paul and Pip!!!!!

[Horatio Leafblower]

From the three "Warbirds Over Scone" airshows the one consistent comment we get in our feedback forms is that Pip was the audience's #1 favourite part of the show.

Yes he is expensive BUT ... if the only part of the show they remember is "the mad **** in the yellow airplane" we have to ask why we spend nearly $50k (and heaps of favours) getting all the old bangers in.:{

[A4G]

SQUAWK 7700: Just to let you know, Pip flew his display in accordance with the boundaries as defined by CASA on the day, Paul did not and is now in discussions with CASA on that subject unfortunately for him. Sorry about the position of the sun but Pip has no say in that. Perhaps if you were more informed on the technicalities of airshow flying you'd have a better understanding of whats involved for the display pilot? Not having a go at you just making a suggestion?

[Squawk7700]

Hmmmm... I guess the 4 airshows that I have flown in by invitation don't count for anything. Perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about... perhaps I do...

Well I'll tell you now, if "Paul is in discussions with CASA" about crossing the display line then over 50% of the other aircraft pilots will be in the poo too... especially the Zero, the Boomerang and several others, including the little Tecnam.

For as long as I can remember (and at every airshow I've been to bar OshKosh) the display line is set 200 metres from the crowd line which is the point that no aircraft can cross and an aircraft can't face the crowd within 500 metres of the crowd line (which mind you isn't very far!) and both the 200 and 500 metre lines can be an arc around the crowd... Narromine was no exception to this thus if Pip didn't want to fly into the sun, he could have easily re-positioned himself around more to the eastern side (towards Dubbo), along the arc line.

As for the Roulettes and Hawk's being exempt from the crowd protection rules, I am at a loss as to how they are still allowed to get away with that. They might belong to the Government, however they are only machines and the pilots are only human!

[Squawk7700]

Sorry A4G, but I've just found out that your post about CASA talking to Paul is 100% completely UNtrue. So get your facts straight before posting!!!!

PM me if you feel otherwise.

[FL_RoofTop]

Gotta LOOOOOVE this topic!

Seems that you Aerobatic freaks are just as happy to slag each other on the PC as you are at the airfields at which you fly!

Don't go leaving any sharp implements lying near your aircraft coz someone will stab you in the back with it!

[AcroAce60]

Was chatting toa mate on the weekend. Said he saw some-one in a hot monoplane do aeros down low over Knox City some time ago. Didn't think there was any open space near there?

[AcroAce60]

A few months ago I said: Back to the Yak 52 that some-one mentioned. .... Burns 150 litre per hour when working it though and several people said that was wrong.
From the June 1997 issue of Sport Aerobatics, the 360 hp M-14 engine in a Yak:
"100% RPM and full throttle for aerobatics .. forget economy ... 40 gph" That's US gallons. I'll leave it to the experts to convert that to litres per hour.
"If you like, you can practice your acro at 82% and drop the fuel burn to 25-30 gph."

[Evil Ultralights]

Those of you who think Pip is in it for the money are just plain wrong. Simple as that. This is a guy dedicated to his passion. Flying and his planes. The money Pip gets from his performances pay for his flying habit. He is hardly making a motza from the airshow/performance circuit. I'd think he is lucky to cover his costs which I would assume are substantial. To say he was only there for the money is simply wrong.

I was at Avalon everday and say Pips displays. I have to wonder whether we were at the same show Squawk! He didn't leave straight away everyday. I saw him around. Maybe you were just looking in the wrong places or perhaps he did not want to be found easily by some people? By the way do you reckon Pip organised the sun to be there? If so can he come and organise some for my christmas party? I'd hate it to be dull weather for that. Come off it. Like he had any say in what time he was going to be on!

As for the Yak burning 150 litres per hour. Crap crap and more crap. I KNOW this is not right.

Evil

[remofo]

For an aerobatic ultralight....

The Rans S-10 Sakota

Low-cost, taildragger, kit form only

http://www.rans.com/s-10.htm

[Evil Ultralights]

"100% RPM and full throttle for aerobatics .. forget economy ... 40 gph" That's US gallons. I'll leave it to the experts to convert that to litres per hour".

That is not what the flight manual says. Max manifold pressure and 82% rpm for all manoeurves except spins.
Max rpm must not exceed one mintue.

That is from the approved flight manual, not some yank magazine written by a know-at-all PPL whose experience in a Yak 52 is limited to 10 mintue joyflight.

EU

[bwm85]

Anyone suggested a Mig-28? Rumour has it they have a problem with their inverted flight tanks. "Apparantly" it won't do a negative G push over. However a friend and I happen to see one do a 4g inverted dive so i thoroughly recommend it for your endorsement.

[Horatio Leafblower]

You were in a 4g, negative dive with a MiG 28?

What were you doing there?

[bwm85]

Communicating. Keeping up foreign relations. I was, uh, you know, giving him "the bird."

[AcroAce60]

Thanks for the info on the -52 Flight Manual, Evil Ultralights. My apologies, all of my info on fuel burn for that engine has been for other model Yaks. (I guess that you have more than a PPL coz you can read the Flight Manual.)

remofo, the Rans S-10 Sakota looks nice. Is it permitted to do aerobatics in Australia? Being a PPL I can't read the Flight Manual to find out.

[Mere Mortal]

TeleMaPhone, how did you get on with your aeros endorsement?
Evil Ultralights, some ppls can read flight manuals, and as for the ones that can't, they're called AEROCLUB PPLs (this will start a wind up).

All the best TeleMaPhone, have fun with your aeros whether its in -150 or F-18.
MM