AG 2,s ? an industry liability ?

[multime]

Dear fellow ag pilots and wannabes. Recently with a huge increase in accident rates insurance has skyrocketed possibly to the point where there won,t be an AG industry.
Where does this leave prospective AG 2,s and any one else trying to get a fair start ?. The advent of the turbine, although supremely efficeint has ultimately seen the demise of that step on the ladder. Having loaded evrything from turbines to pawnees it,s not surprising these events have prompted me to re-examine future career plans ?. Is there a payoff worth waiting for. ? I for one can,t put myself through another cotton season or wheat season without some committment on an employers part. Constant excuses of insurance costs, @ liability are all to common. 10 years of loading some 3000 + hrs and i still am loading in hope.
Anyone care to comment ?
Multi.:suspect:

[currawong]

It can be done, cannot tell you anything about persistance or patience with your numbers.

Forget the turbine areas for now, there are plenty of other areas, hunt down entry level operators, Ag Wagon and Pawnee owners would be a good place to start.

Opportunities for first seats seem often to come up with operators you would not otherwise work with, if you catch my drift.

Thought about going it alone? Operations come up for sale from time to time. Been done before.

Good luck, which ever way you jump.

[Lowlevldevl]

Your question is a very good one but without knowing more about your circumstances its difficult to advise you on which way to jump. Ten years loading seems like a long time. Has that all been with the one operator?
The industry IS going through a bit of an uncertain period right now. But anytime previous that we've had these challenges we've risen to them, don't see why we shouldn't again.
One disturbing development with regards to insurance is the insurance companies' (and there's really only one)decision to black-ban pilots who have had accidents, regardless of whether those pilots were responsible for their accidents or not. I was talking to a very experienced pilot yesterday who had a bit of bad luck with a large turbine earlier this year. The circumstances of his accident by his account ( and I have no reason to disbelieve him) were unforseeable and not really his fault. This seems to be agreed on by his company management as well as their engineering. Now because he's already been 'un-lucky' twice before in his 13 year career the insurance company has refused to insure him to fly 'turbine ag aircraft' at any time ever regardless of what additional training, premiums or excess he's prepared to undertake or pay for. His ag career is effectively over. He's a well respected, safe, experienced pilot and will be lost to the industry for good unless somebody uses some common sense.
What type of message does that send to aspiring ag-pilots?
It tells you that if you commit yourself to this career beyond an age when you could branch off into something else and you are un-lucky enough to have a couple of accidents your aviation career is finished. Do you want to take that risk?
Personally I think it'll be a sad time for ag-aviation when most new entrants come to the industry fully intending to do a max of 3-5 years then get out for this reason.
My mobile is 0429802204. Call if I can help.

Cheers,
Don.

[Turboman]

Multime,

You are either in the wrong place/s at the wrong time or the operator/s don't think you are suitable as an ag pilot. Some people just aren't suitable, unfortunately operators won't usually tell you. Try asking them if they think you have the appropriate attributes. Ten years is way too long.

I know of a large turbine operator who is putting on their fourth ag 2 in three years. Two of those had no previous ag time and spent one or two years mixing. Two had some ag time and are now in turbines.

Of two of the current insurers in the market one is making their premium assessments over a history of one year the other over three years, so obviously the last twelve months is going to have a major impact on insurance rates. Time or competition will hopefully sort out these ridiculous premiums.

Don,

From my experience pilots sometimes develop “unluckiness” which can be seen obviously in hindsight but at the time are missed by most. Other little incidents before or in between the big ones can indicate a regular breakdown in SA or judgement. Things like hitting wires or fences, spray drift, bad attitude and generally not thinking. The secret, like Reason’s Swiss cheese model, is for the pilot or operator to spot these as a series of related events rather that isolated incidents, and do something about it.

Not sure if this is true of your example but sure the "circumstances of his accident by his account" may have been "unforseeable and not really his fault" but did he put himself in a situation with no escape. Things like waiting till halfway through the takeoff roll to extend flap or not watching the flap extend before takeoff, flap motor fails, Air Tractor won’t fly without flap.

Having lots of backup plans gives you options when you really need them, reducing the chance of accidents or incidents. Things like saving half the flap at takeoff for emergencies only, such as sudden wind gusts.

This all really belongs in your other thread but you will read it anyway.

[Paint The Sky Pink!]

Multime,

How much flying experience do you have?

Currawong,

If Multime doesn't have much experience flying, how do you think he will go running & flying in his own business?

I really don't think that is a good idea!:confused:

I have to agree with what Turboman is saying. Multime, maybe you need to see if any previous employees can offer you some constructive critisism about your work, maybe something you are doing is not allowing you to move onto the next step. Just a thought!

PTSP!

[Turboman]

PTSP

I presumed he has "3000 + hrs" but no ag time.

[Paint The Sky Pink!]

If he had no Ag time, would you recommend he goes and buys his own business so he can get himself a seat?

Not a good idea at all. Don't know where he would get any insurance anyway:sad:

PTSP!

Good to see all these new names in this forum! Welcome aboard to the new members:ok:

PTSP!

[Lowlevldevl]

Turboman,
Thanks for your input. You sound like you're somebody who knows what you're talking about. Hope we see you here more.

I can't really say a lot more about his accident, without giving away my examples' identity. Was hoping he'd do that himself later.
My point was that the insurance companies have gotten real tough on pilots in response to the last years spike in accident statistics. I think that in this particular pilots case he got a raw deal. I also think that as different companies renew their insurance, he may not be on his own! I don't believe this is a problem of pilots. It's a problem of industry. Operators drive the industry not pilots.

To put it another way. They're reading the story we're just turning the pages. Which is why, in my other thread, I've asked for some input from pilots. It's time we realise that we all have an interest in just what that story is going to be.

[currawong]

PTSP,

With all due respect, I know a few that kicked off as operators because nobody would give them a job. Not saying its the right way, but it is a way.

More than one said the flying was the easy part.

As for people being suitable or accident prone, I definately believe it has more to do with the individual that you start with, rather than the training.

Know some who started before there was such a thing as ag training, or their training was "deficient" for one reason or another, that have come through quite well.

Some say you are an ag pilot on day one, or not at all.

Interesting thread - hope it keeps going.

[185skywagon]

gidday all,

multime ,
i got my ag2 rating about 4 years ago at the age of 38 and about 3600 tt or so.
i never really intended on going spraying but i have picked up a fair bit of niche type work like pasture seeding, low level animal survey and baiting work, all stuff that no one else in our area was keen to look at, or wants to do.
i have my own 185 which i share with my bank :-).

anything is possible.

multime, pm me if you need any help.
185.

[828a]

Back in the 1950s when the overloaded and overworked Tiger Moth reigned supreme it seemed to me that good ag pilots needed at least four attributes to do the job safely and well. (1) Wanted to do it (2) Enjoyed doing it (3) Understood the importance of balanced flight (4) Had common sense . There was of course that very special thing called Luck that enabled some to make a full time career without so much as a single blemise. I suspect it's the same today.

828a