Saluting the ensign.

[Bob Viking]

Orderly Officer/SDO.
What is the general feeling out there.
Should aircrew be allowed to salute the flag wearing flying suits, or regiment types in CS95? I thought the regs just refered to working dress.
In case you wondered, I'm currently kicking my heels waiting to go and do my bit before going home. Fingers crossed for no defaulters tonight!
BV:bored:

[PPRuNeUser0211]

ach, the age old debate...
there have been certain circumstances when I've cursed saluting in blues, but surely standards must prevail? Its a drag especially if you're flying first thing, but it has to be done, or there'll be no standards at all!

[Bob Viking]

I don't see why OC GD can't just have it as part of their job title. I mean, they wear blues all day and their office is right next to it (at our base anyway). Come on, take one for the team chaps. It's not like you have anything better to do!
BV:E

[ZH875]

Careful Bob, you will be suggesting RAFP do control of entry and guard duties next.

[Bob Viking]

Oh Christ no. That would be pushing things way too far. I'm more than happy to accept that they are way too busy to be involved in such mundane tasks!
BV:E

[L1A2 discharged]

Put raising / lowering the ensign out to Serco / BWOS etc, it'll be late, expensive and done by those few still in uniform when the contractors 'can't recruit'.



Sad, Bitter and becoming more twisted by the day.

[Fg Off Bloggs]

If BV is your real name and Norwich (aka Coltishall) your real location, I cannot believe that you have asked this question openly!

Just had your OJAR have you?

Best you get on with it and I wouldn't be late in the morning if I were you!

Bloggs

[Lima Juliet]

Make a decision man...You are the Stn Cdr's representative! I did my SDOs/OOs in flying suits - I'm not on parade - the defaulters are.

That attitude has never done me any harm in the RAF. Of course, I have changed into my No 1s to tell an airman his father has died - that's just common courtesy.

If you don't like the rules then get promoted and change them, that's what I did. Being Duty Exec is much better as you can wear your best slacks and jumper and get the SDO to run around :ok:

LJ

PS I also wear my brevet on my CS95 and my RAF leather jacket with my blues - heaven forbid!!!!

[Sven Sixtoo]

When I were a lad, regulations required the SDO to wear No 1s and to drink in moderation.

Always enjoyed being ordered to drink ...

[mbga9pgf]

Everyone should be required to salute the ensign, blunty or otherwise, in full dress uniform. If I hadmy way, the Duty Officer would be saluting with a sword. Do we have no pride left in this service?

[teeteringhead]

regulations required the SDO to wear No 1s and to drink in moderation ... used to be true for all at one time in Part Time Command.

ASIs said something like:Aircerew are to drink in moderation in the 24 hours before flying duty... .. was a real bugger - some times you needed a night off .....:E

[Stax]

So is this thread about saluting the Ensign or the ever popular topic of "My growbag makes me manly!". Sorry but as far as I am concerned if you are SDO/OO/Duty Exec, then you shouldn't be flying the next day in case you are called out and a planned sortie has to cancelled at the last moment as you are too tired to fly! Therefore, no flying, no flying suit needed! Easy innit. It's also a little bit of courtesy to the rest of us duty minions, to show you actually do own a blue suit.

[dopeonarope]

Stax - Guessing you are a CAO of DfD (Department for Duvets) therefore safe to say you have your own supply of flying suits and all things aircrew..... probably why the aviators in blue cannot get stores:p

mbga9pgf - by looking at your post on Fitness Tests, I guess you have the larger size of No1 dress uniform:=

Of Course when saluting the ensign the SDO and OS should be in best blue, wrong to be working PPE (flying suits :cool: or CS95 )

Hoist to crew winching over and OUT:ok:

[action_lynx]

All that waving at the flag, be it in light-blues, CS95s, growbags or whatever is a bit farcical anyway :}

Now the crisp sound of the perfectly piped 8-second still and the spine-shaking ringing of the bell precisely as the sun sets... The handsome OOD in his finest No. 1s... The smell of the fresh sea air...!!

Thats the way it should be done m'lad. :)

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Stax, who said anything about a flying suit making you manly? I detect several chips on your invenotry old chap, would you like some vinegar?

Its all about convenience and the argument is a logical one, and as I have seen happen at several stations, there is an anti flying suit mafia who managed to get them banned in dinner or in the bar after 7 pm but still swan around in their blues. Funny that both Blue and Blunty start with b isnt it;)

As for not flying the next day after perfomring a duty, well that would kind of defeat the point of having aircraft/aircrew/.......police dogs/police men and Stackers wouldnt it now really.

I fail to see why me wearing my blues is courtesy to the "minions" perhaps you could enlighten, or as I suspect you will just continue to grace us with your tripe.

[incubus]

OK, hows this.

Hoisting and lowering the ensign is a ceremonial duty and should be performed in the appropriate dress. Even aircrew wouldn't stoop to parading down the local high street on a freedom of the city march wearing green romper suits so why should the ensign ceremony be treated any differently?

From my position on the sidelines I don't have an issue with the wearing of flying suits for day-to-day work or pre-post work activities (like eating supper) as it is a uniform like any other and the logistics of the situation often demands that a sensible view is taken to the wearing of uniform, though that does first assume that the wearer has actually been or is going flying that day and didn't just pick up the first thing that came to hand in the morning :)

[C130 Techie]

Just a thought

If you consider it acceptable to raise/lower the RAF Ensign wearing flying coveralls etc, would you apply the same rule when parading your Squadron Standard?

[Stax]

Dirty S

Never have been anti flying suit, merely believe in appropriate dress, appropriate time. Would you wear your flying suit to a formal dining in night? Why not? so much easier than tying a bow tie.

Over the years I have worked with many FJP and Big Slow Pilots and unfortunately there are far too many who use the suit to blow up their ego's!

A Police dog handler works shift, a Stacker works shift, a Liney works shift, that is, a series of nights or days sometimes 12 hour sometimes 8 hour stints. You will find the Station guard force does the same. When not at work they are in bed, hopefully sleeping ready for their next shift. This is all on Unit during normal alert states. Ops are different and you adapt your shift patterns (eat when you can, sleep when you can etc) to these occasion's. A tired Stacker probably wouldn't cause a multi million pound weapon platform to fall out of the sky, a tired Pilot probably could.

As to courtesy, having a bloke in a smelly flying suit, that he has been wearing all day, inspect a defaulter or guard force is beyond the pale, or are you yet another "Pilot first, Officer second" type of chap.






Oh yes and I can spell inventory.

Cheers all! : )

[Avtur]

Viking, are you therefore suggesting that NCA in flying suites or Airman in CS95 need not bother saluting Commissioned Officers either? I think not!

[mystic_meg]

are you therefore suggesting that NCA in flying suites

Ahem!.....'tis the H'ossifers wot get the suites, the Baldricks are lucky to get a sandbag to sit on!....

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Didn't we recently do this on another thread......the one where all the "Blue wearing, should have done better at school" Brigade took us dashing aircrew chaps to task in a similar "green hissy fit":rolleyes: Some people are just so easy:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Pontius Navigator]

At a secret fighter base in Lincolnshire wooly pully was the order of the day. No 1's went out about 10 years ago.

[Scud-U-Like]

Fcuk it. Wear what you like.

[mbga9pgf]

Why do harrier mates have to announce this fact in EVERY conversation? It does become rather tiresome.

[Blacksheep]

Originally everyone kept their working clothes in their locker in the squadron locker room.

No.2s were required for travelling to and from work or when appearing outdoors anywhere around the Station buildings or domestic site. No.1s were required when on Station Duty, public appearances or for ceremonial occasions. Indeed, that was the very purpose of having No.1s and No. 2s. Later the wooly-pully came in and was officially sanctioned (as No.3s? - I don't remember it ever being defined) as acceptable wear for the office, but not for Station Duty.

I've seen an Air Vice Marshal being interviewed on television recently while wearing a wooly-pully. With the top brass now behaving like common airmen, no wonder standards of dress have fallen so low. :hmm:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"With the top brass now behaving like common airmen"

A classic pompous upper class twit analogy, no wonder most of us "balders" have little or no respect for those that lead us:}

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[BEagle]

"Silence - back to your dung, Baldrick!"

Blacksheep's opinion does seem somewhat dated?

Seriously though, pullover and tie was my prep school uniform and I hated wearing it in the RAF. But SDO/OO should, in my view, be a 'day in blue' and not in green growbag, clockwork squaddie 95 or similar attire.

One day at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome, the Ord Sgt was standing with whistle at the base of the flagpole with about 30 sec to go, wondering where the SDO was. Then, with a screech of brakes, an ancient BMW roared up and out fell Fat Peter. He threw his fag to the ground, shoved on an ancient cap and yelled "OK" to the Ord Sgt, then saluted, got back in the car and roared off.....

All witnessed in stunned shock by the ex-Colchester SWO who was speechless about it. Complained to the Boss - who just about managed to keep a straight face!

[C130 Techie]

With the top brass now behaving like common airmen, no wonder standards of dress have fallen so low.

I am relieved to see that the military arena still has its fair share of pompous @rses to keep the us and them divide well and truly alive.

Cheers

A Common Airman
(Dressed correctly and smartly Sir!!!)

[Gainesy]

I think that Blacksheep was an airman on Vs in the 1960s so maybe he's being a tad tongue-in-cheek?:)

Out of interest, what do other air forces do re Ensign up/down routine?

[Blacksheep]

Not in my cheek Gainsey, dangling in the water. Can I take it back out now I've got some fish that need cooking...? :}

Cheerio for now.

[Specaircrew]

The suggestion that OC GD/Stn Adj should salute the ensign is a very sensible one, indeed I've mentioned it before in my SDO reports.(much to the annoyance of OC Blunt Wg)

The average aircrew chap works in a building quite some distance from the ensign so the whole procedure usually wastes at least 30 mins twice a day.

First tourist admin chaps office is normally just a stones throw away and during the winter months he'll always be at work at 0800 and 1600. He'll be so poor that he'll live in the Mess so the later summer lowering time of 1800 isn't a great hardship and stops him wasting his paltry salary in the bar!

[NoseGunner]

Firstly: Suggesting someone has a day off flying because they are SDO/OO is hilarious! Do you have no idea of the work tempo / manpower issues / demands on front-line FJ sqns ? (and probably elsewhere)

Secondly: Surely the point is what do you have time to wear? Usually for flag waving in the evening I have to get someone else to do it or I curtail a sortie/debrief to get there just in time - in my flying suit. (Shock, horror). This is obviosly a waste of resources (how much does that sortie cost?) but tradition is tradition - we dont want effective training to get in the way of it! On the other hand, if I have time I'll change into no 2s. For inspecting a defaulter, I have always so far worked it so that I am dressed correctly. I think current orders here are no 2s - but I will of course wear no1s if thats what the orders say.

A capable Air Force first, a traditional Air Force second. If that makes me Pilot before Officer, then so be it, your call.

Have at!

[PlasticCabDriver]

Was Duty Auth on a fine SH Sqn in the emerald toilet some years ago, and answered the telephone to a very irate SWO who demanded to speak to the Orderly Officer, as he hadn't signed on that morning.

Pointed out to the SWO that SHQ wasn't open at 0600 when said OO had reported to work for a days tasking, and that he had made arrangements for the ensign to be saluted (although I think my choice of phrase "waving at the flag" didn't help his mood), and would take over as OO the moment he had returned from his primary duty.

Not good enough, apparently, he is required to sign on blah blah blah, and then the best one: "I demand he is recalled to sign on!".

Me: "That's right, we will interrupt the anti-terrorist operations going on today and destroy the whole flying programme, so that someone can return to base to sign on for a duty that you have just been told he is aware of and has covered?"

As the volume level then passed Health and Safety limits, I felt justified in putting the phone down (am convinced to this day that I could still hear him though).

2 minutes later, Duty Flt Cdr comes down: "did you just put the phone down on the SWO?"
Me: "Yes".
DFC: "Were you rude to him?"
Me: "Yes".
DFC: "Good, me too, just told him to f*ck off and annoy someone else. Carry on!".

[incubus]

Of course, it makes great sense if the OO isn't off galavanting during his period of duty - if galavanting is what he/she does then the duty needs to be assigned to somebody who is either permanently or temporarily non-galavanting.

Excuse the ignorance, but does the OO have any other responsibilities other than waving? I would have thought that they needed to remain available during their period of duty.

[Sven Sixtoo]

The OO or SDO is supposed to be the Stn Cdr's out-of-hours representative. As such when the office workers are in their offices he should have nothing to do. The problems start when the flyers day (and some other sorts of workers day, but the flyers are the main ones who run into problems) does not fit neatly in to the office day ie just about all the time!

As to what the SDO actually does - these days there seems to be very little arising that both:

cannot not be dealt with by a competent NCO

and does not require the attention of a senior officer.

So is there room to scrap a level of beauro
beuaroc
beureaucr

(I give up)

admin trivia??


Sven

[Sarahs]

Bob Viking


Did you actually get an answer??

[Bob Viking]

Have been away for a couple of days and just caught up with the thread.
Pull pin, run away!!!
It's fun to read.
Personally I think the sight of officers in different uniforms demonstrates that every officer is doing his duty, not just those in blue. I see that many disagree.
I'm all for standards but as someone else pointed out, for us aircrew types it is a half hour process to get changed, get to the flag, salute, get back, get changed. Very tiresome. Much quicker to get OC GD to do the two minute job!
Standing by for incoming.
BV:ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

As OC GD is the "slackbladder" that normally hands out these admin duties can't see him dickin himself for it on a permanent basis:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[serf]

Little or no flying takes place at the weekend, therefore aircrew could easily cover the weekend SDO - and public holidays come to think of it. Think i'll send a memo to the SWO..........................;)

[Bob Viking]

I never said I couldn't or wouldn't do the job, just that it makes more sense to remain in ones' working dress.
I actually don't mind doing it at all since I think it is a rather quaint little tradition.
BV:D

[kzinti]

How pleasing to see that the long fought for traditions of the RAF are being brought down to if you should wear a pair of work overalls or a smart uniform to perform the duties that you received your Queens Commission for. I'm sure if you checked in QR's, the more 'less time in' might realise there is no arguement. How can you check a defaulter when you look like a gardener with a pair or wings applied by celotape. Feel the pride and wear the uniform, one of those defaulters might be removing yor seat pins next week!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

kzinti,

Blunty........unless I miss my guess:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[ZH875]

As more military jobs are given to civilians, I suggest that they take their turn at this duty. Suits and female equivalent dress to be worn.

New Flag times of up at 0930 and down at 1530 will be required.

Still cannot understand why Military are required to stop and face the flag, and civilians are requested (some refusing) to halt.

[Collapsar]

First post so please forgive any inadvertant transgressions of conventions.

I have lurked on this forum for many many months and have, at last, found a subject that goads me into words. It isn't so much what to wear for SDO duty that winds me up, it is the fact that anyone outside Admin Wg has to do it at all!

Consider, what have you been called out for in the past? I suggest that The raising and lowering of the ensign are ceremonial duties and therefore are a P1 responsibility. Similarly, defaulters are a disciplinary matter, also P1. Faults in MQs are now reported to DHE by occupiers and emergency works services in messes and barrack blocks are a SSS responsibility. All of these are Admin Wg matters. Any personnel matters fall within the P2 purview.

I'm sure that I will be corrected but I can't off the top of my head think of anything that an SDO does that is not either an Admin Wg function or covered by Duty Ops Officer, Duty Supplier etc.

All the other wgs on a Stn have a duty bod to fulfill their out of hours duties, so why does Admin Wg find it necessary to palm off their OOH duty on the rest of us?

[Bob Viking]

Perhaps if you could climb down from your lofty perch up there on your favourite horse you could re-read the previous posts and realise that at no point has the issue of inspecting defaulters in flying suits even been suggested. I agree that should be done in a smart uniform with polished shoes and straight tie etc.
The issue being discussed is purely the ensign duty.
Switch on man. I mean really.
BV:rolleyes:

[A2QFI]

I have just chanced upon this thread and apart from what one wears to salute the ensign twice a day, what does the ceremony actually signify and do we need to do it, other than because we always have? Does it mark the opening and closing of the working day, is it a gesture of respect to HM who owns the facilities and pays our wages? The ensign is up all day and down at night, so what? Why do we do it and would life stop if we didn't? Discuss please.

[CBA_caption]

It does, Bob. Ask leon on page 1. Thats pretty much what he's inferring.

CBA

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

I spent a couple of months on an Army station recently and the Union Jack stayed up 24-7. And I thought the Army were supposed to be the brave bastions of tradition!
Only time it budged was (rightly) to lower to half-mast as a sign of respect after the London bombings.

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Back into the debate.

As stated on Page 1 the role of the SDO is to be the Stn Cdr's rep during the 'down period' from COP to restart (ie. overnight). Some stations have traditionally also appointed an OO to act as the SDO's gopher. However, dependent upon local circumstance, these duties can be, and have been, amalgamated. Because one is representing the Staish, one wears uniform (either No 1 or No 2 dependent upon local orders). The lowering of the ensign is a tradition that signifies the end of the day's routine work (stand by night-flying etc) whether it be 1800 or 1600 (summer or winter) and the 0800 raising indicates the start of the day. It is also a tradition that an officer, nominally the CO's rep, salutes the ensign as a mark of respect, whilst an NCO executes the act and all military personnel within earshot of the whistle blast(s) stand to attention (officers saluting). Civilians on military units are not bound by these traditions and, thankfully, never will be (the fewer the better IMHO). But you knew all that! As far as I am aware the Army and Navy have similar 'Sunset' ceremonies.

So, it goes without saying that, the SWO in Ireland was an ar$e, who got what he deserved! But if you are officer or NCO aircrew you do your respective duty like everyone else and, during the down period, you wear the appropriate uniform which is not a flying suit. If, because of flying programming and demands on currency etc, you have to and unavoidably go night flying and cannot arrange a total duty swap, then you take your responsibility and arrange for someone to take over your duty for that period when you are unavailable.

That's the way we aircrew have always resolved it and I cannot think of a reason why circumstance might have changed.

Anyway, who better to represent the Staish than the master race!?

Doh! Ruined it!

[CBA_caption]

As you rightly say, the SDO is the rep for Harry during out of hours times and the "Flag waiving" signifies the start and end of the normal working day. Therefore by definition it should be the first and last duty of OC Bogs and Drains, and not the preserve of the chap(ess) who is trying to plan/get something useful out of the debrief.

See, the rules do work in our favour sometimes. Now, who's going to start the petition?;)

CBA

[Stax]

Fg Off Bloggs, I salute you, (well obviously, you hold a commission!) This is the point I have been attempting to make, in this thread and others, that aircrew occifers are as much a part of the niff naff, trivia and service traditions as everyone else. It saddens me to read so many posts (hand grenades, wind ups or serious) where a member of the aircrew cadre uses the fact he is what he is in order to explain his appaling lack of admin. Gentlemen, you are first and foremost members of the RAF, not the bide a wee rest home for gentlemen pilots!

[Tourist]

Am I to believe that you crabs are calling your habits traditions already!?
Whatever next!

[incubus]

Having the duty performed by Admin functionaries makes a huge deal of sense, but there is also a sense of "sharing the wealth" - everybody does their turn at being OO so it comes around less frequently, and of course we can go down the overstretch/mucking in path of the argument.

However, until such a time that aircrew are exempt from taking their turn at orderly, the question remains, and as I see it, it comes down to 2 things.[list=1]
It is a scutter to change in and out of blue
Performing the ceremonial duty in blue is the proper thing to do (from the book and from the heart)
[/list=1]

weigh that up and decide where you stand.

[PlasticCabDriver]

Not long after the SWO was put back in his box, Aldergrove had the inspired idea of binning the OO and Duty SNCO altogether. Aldergrove had (has?) a huge number of on-duty personnel (Duty Clerk, Duty Armourers, 24hr RAFP shift + RAFP Officer always on duty, Duty Storemen, Duty Drivers etc etc) all of who were the first port of call for any problem. Solution was for one of the RAFP Cpls to be the ensign putter upper/taker downer, and the Duty RAFP Officer did the saluting, all other matters got dealt with by the approporiate on-duty expert.

Not sure if its still like that though

[Fg Off Bloggs]

PCD,

As I said, local conditions apply and in the circumstances you describe very practical ones too, but on a routine station (what's one of those today?) there is absolutely no reason why aircrew should not take their turn just like everybody else.

It's called officers' responsibilities and, after all, aircrew are officers first and aircrew second; like it or not! To those that don't like, may I humbly suggest that you chose the wrong career and would be better off with the 'bucket & spade' brigade where you can do your flying when rostered and do your garden and whatever else takes your fancy during the long lay offs between sorties!

As I said in my post above:

if you are officer or NCO aircrew you do your respective duty like everyone else and, during the down period, you wear the appropriate uniform which is not a flying suit.

That's the way we aircrew have always resolved it and I cannot think of a reason why circumstance might have changed.

I'm with incubus and stax! Get your uniform on and get the flag down (or up!)

Bloggs

[KC-10 Driver]

Out of interest, what do other air forces do re Ensign up/down routine?

In the USAF, the flag raising and lowering is performed typically by members of the Security Forces -- usually two junior enlisted or NCO, no commissioned officers present.

The uniform is usually just the uniform of the day (usually the blues -- typically shirt only in warm weather, and with a coat in colder weather). I think probably equivalent to what I've previously seen in this thread called #2 in the RAF? I've also seen it done in Battle Dress Uniform (BDU), which are the camouflaged fatigues.

The lowering and raising of the flag is accompanied by the appropriate music (reveille in the morning, retreat or taps in the evening) broadcast by loudspeaker throughout the base.

At the sound of the music, all personnel outdoors should stop and face the flagpole, or if not visible, then face the direction of the sound of the music. Military in any uniform render salute, civilians stand respectfully. All vehicle traffic should stop (assuming the music is heard).

[incubus]

typically shirt only in warm weather
That'd be qute a sight! :ok:

Sorry :E

[KC-10 Driver]

typically shirt only in warm weather

That'd be qute a sight!

But, not as interesting as with a coat over it in colder weather.

typically shirt only in warm weather, and with a coat in colder weather

Ok, you got me. LOL.

[PlasticCabDriver]

Fg Off Bloggs, it is a rare moment but I find myself agreeing with you!

It is indeed more convenient to do it in a flying suit, but it doesn't come round that often (although perhaps more often than it should given the numbers from some of the Squadrons who are away at any one time) and is, as incubus said, a ceremonial duty.

At least the rules requiring the OO to wear No 1s in the evening seem to have gone (unless inspecting defaulters etc etc before someone jumps down my throat)

[SID East]

Alas, some of us still find ourselves squeezing into our No. 1s for SDO / OO duty post 1900!

At a previous unit of mine a few years back there was a spate of "no shows" at the ensign lowering, despite pilots being airborne / diverted etc. no excuses were taken. The powers that be then started an exponential increase in "punishment time" culminating with one pilot receiving 21 days straight of Orderly Officer - no kidding. Funnily enough no one seemed top forget after that.

Oh and Blues have always been the dress as far as I am aware although the Regt do appear to get away with CS95 I notice.

If you can't make it to the ensign in the right dress or whatever, why not speak to a mate in Admin or Air Traffic or wherever to see if they can do it for you? There is not so much of a them and us culture with aircrew / ground branch that someone wouldn't help out surely? - eg their office is right next to the ensign. I personally have helped people out in this regard on occasion even though I work away from SHQ.

[CBA_caption]

I have to say, for all my ranting earlier, that the place I work at has a very sensible situation. The Duty Ops Officer does all the triv (important ceremonial functions). In fact the SDO is only called if there are multiple things going on and he/she can't be in two places at once.

I can't remember the last time one was called out (bound to happen next time I'm on, then) and it seems to be there cos someone can't let go entirely. Very grown up tho. That can't last!

CBA

[Michael Edic]

Perhaps I am being a trifle naive; but surely as the raising/lowering is a ceremonial duty it should be performed in No 1s.

This removes the issue about having to change. YOU BLOODY WELL SHOULD CHANGE INTO SMART TOGS TO SALUTE SOMETHING THAT REPRESENTS THE MONARCH It doesn't take any longer to get changed out of flying suit into 1s than it does for a blunt to put a fresh shirt on and look presentable for an important duty.

If your duty i.e. flying or whatever requires you to miss the flag waving then I doubt all your mates on your squadron/relevant admin section are equally busy. If you don't have any mates you deserve all the trouble you get into.

As for changing out of flying suits in the mess, if uniform is not allowed fair enough, odd as the uniform is usually smarter than the assorted semi-jean semi-trousers and dodgy cheap polo shirts that are prevalent, but fair none the less. If uniform but not flying clothing is allowed frankly GROW UP. Flying suits are working dress for a percentage of the RAF. As you would be allowed to wear tropical kit in certain OOA detachments because it is apropriate to what you are doing even though they are not blues; so flying clothing should be allowed for those whose duty each day means they have the potential to go flying.

Surely there are more important matters worthy of our discussion in these times!? End of pettynees please

[Jordan D]

When I was a Flt Sgt in the CCF (RAF) Cadets and on base, I was always told by the CO that if out whilst leading a group and the appointed time came, I was meant to halt the group, turn and face the direction of the flag, salute, and then once over carry on ... is this/was this correct?

Jordan

[Green Flash]

Sorry to blunder in, but No1's, CS95 or growbag - they are are all issue UNIFORM ergo it doesn't matter; spring smartly to attention and throw one up. problem?:confused:

[Michael Edic]

To the best of my knowledge, no. Only commissioned officers salute. Having said that am unsure what WOs should do.

[sittingstress]

Before moving here to Pongosville this Rock always conducted duties in blues (Shirt/tie and stupid woolly pully). I wore that rig during the day unless my primary duty made it impossible. Chamber work isn't much fun dressed like that!

My tuppenceworth; do the job, in blues (1s or 2s depending on local SROs). If you can't then sort out a replacement.

I would cetainly not expect the OO to inspect defaulters in gro-bag or CS 95.

Regards

ss

[incubus]

Yes I know this is a bit sad, but AP818 states...
On hearing {the whistle}, all personnel out of doors are to stop movement, turn and face the direction of the flagstaff and stand at Attention. Officers are to salute. A warrant officer who is orderly officer is to salute; other warrant officers do not.

[ProfessionalStudent]

If local orders specify "clean working dress" then whatever your "working dress" is (as long as it's clean), that should be fine as long as the ceremony is treated with the solemnity that it deserves. I know of few officers that do not wear flying suits, blues or CS95 as their standard working dress, and IMHO they are all fine and reflect the modern working force we are. We are all (regardless of branch) busy enough without having to waste time worrying about what togs we wear during a routine (though not unimportant) "ceremony".

On the subject of defaulters, I always inspect them in No1s, irrespective of local orders. I think it is important to look as smart as possible in order to set the best example (and to act as a springboard from which to launch the mother of all rollockings if they're shoddily turned out).

And don't even think about getting me started on time wasting SWOs... :*

[Devil's Aardvark 8]

I remember during fg trg (some moons ago I might add) receiving the task of OO and having drunk 'in moderation' the night before made it to the yard arm at 0759:30seconds wearing the first thing that came to hand when I woke up at 0757. A beer soaked flying suit with no rank tabs or badges, chip bag and slippers (no shirt or socks). Needless to say I was given roughly one thousand and twenty one reasons as to why No 2 working dress was the order of the day.

[Bob Viking]

Michael Edic.
We shall all consider ourselves told off then.
Last time I checked, this was a chat forum and, hence, we can talk about what ever we want.
I personally will grow up when I'm god damn good and ready! Don't hold your breath that that will happen any time soon!
BV :E

[8ball]

Suck it up. You took the Queen's shilling. You are an officer in the Royal Air Force. Wear a uniform and salute the ensign with pride.
There's more to leadership than leading a four ship. You need to set an example on the deck.
Our groundie bretheren are perfectly aware that the habitual wearing of growbags when not flying is simply lazy. They aren't out there lowering the ensign in their coveralls.
No shirt to iron, no trousers to press and no shoes to polish. You don't look like a steely eyed hero, you look like a lazy git.

[Bob Viking]

I have to say I'm amazed at the life in this thread!
How many of those that have objected to flying suits for saluting actually wear one themselves?
Not criticising, just asking!!
BV:uhoh:

[Maple 01]

There's more to leadership than leading a four ship.

With all due respect, it's exactly what we are about - bombs on target, the other guy's jet in bits, PAX and stuff in the right place on time, Subs spotted etc. Everything else is niff-naff and trivia. I'd rather have good pilots with minimal admin skills than wannabe adminers in growbags - aircrew first plese ladies and gents

And I speak as a 'baldrick' that hands his kit in on Monday

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Bob V,

I think if you analyse the responses carefully you will realise that the majority are for tradition and that the majority of that majority are aircrew!

You are likely in the minority, old chap!

Bloggs
(FJ aircrew; led 8-ships & Gorillas; and never attended to the flag in a flying suit!)

[Bob Viking]

Well I happen to be aware of a fairly substantial 'minority' where I work and it's nothing to do with laziness or showing off in a flying suit. It's just a matter of practicality.
BV :p

[cazatou]

Bob Viking,

My "flying suit" was usually No 2 HD but quite often No 1 HD. In fact, when we needed some "green growbags" for a specific task we had to acquire them from another Station.

At least you get the romper suit provided and don't have to do the externals in your No 1.

[Splash Coxswain]

Bob Viking

Attitude!

Could that be why they are scrapping the Jag force and closing Colt? Just a wild ar$e guess looking at your location.

Splash

[Bob Viking]

Cazatou.
Respect to you my friend. Don't envy the blues for flying though!

Splash Cox.
Yes, thats exactly why they're scrapping the Jag. Because we don't like getting changed into blues. If only we'd complied, we might have escaped the attention of the government! Damn me and my crazy opinions!
Personally I think getting the job done is a bit more important than wearing my scratchy blue trousers.
BV:*

[comedyjock]

Surely it is easier to wear shirt/trousers and change into grow bag in the morning and arrange not to fly in the evening. The duty comes but 4 times a year and although a ball ache at least shows willing and gives the admin/fish heads less ammunition. You should try being aircrew in a RN Frigate and see how many sh**ty jobs come your way.

[cazatou]

Bob Viking,

Better the "Blues for flying" than a week in a Moscow Military Hotel in a "Green Growbag".

The wooden Hotel in Guyana in 1969 was better than that!!!!

PS That was a VIP Flight too.

PPS Teheran was also a definite "No-No" for Growbags.

[Bob Viking]

Four times a year?! I wish. It comes around a lot more often than that.
No offence to you and yours but I don't fancy the frigate much. Just not my bag baby!
I'm not sure what other peoples perceptions of life on a FJ squadron are but I can assure you we get more than our fair share of sh@tty jobs!
Not complaining, cos I wouldn't change it for the world, but thought it only right to point it out!
BV

[Maple 01]

Bob, was part of the 'sh@tty jobs' drinking all that Polish spiritus the other week? Only 95% proof I was assured!

[Bob Viking]

Lets just say that, in the Poles, we have found another race that enjoy their booze as much (if not more) than ourselves!
BV:yuk:

[foldingwings]

Bob,

You are beginning to take things too much to heart and biting when people fish!!

You asked for their opinions; you have to therefore allow them to have them! So your minority at Coltishall feels strongly. That's fine but that doesn't mean that it is the voice of the Air Force, which dare I suggest is larger than the Jag Force alone!

Chill, man!

PS. I am not referring here, of course, to Splash Coxswain who was clearly just winding you up!

[Bob Viking]

Fishing eh?! Who's to say I haven't been guilty of a little of that myself.
BV:ok:

[foldingwings]

Hhhhmmmmmm! There are some things that smell of fish but your posts haven't done so!

[Bob Viking]

Maybe, maybe not, but it is amazing just how long this thread has run on when you consider my original post was merely that I don't like wearing blues for saluting the flag!
It seems to me that there are alot of people with rather well developed inferiority complexes out there!
I'm available for counselling if anyone should require it.
Also weddings,funerals, bar mitzvahs.......
BV:E

[Michael Edic]

Bob,
If you reread my original post what I was saying is that if working dress is allowed in the bar then as flying clothing is working dress it should also be allowed in the bar. At a significant percentage of the places I've been there has been pressure from the blunts to allow blues and CS95 but not flying clothing to be worn. Surly you can't disagree with that? It may have been put slightly clumsily due to imbibage of some rather excellent Chateau Neuf du Pape
Don't bend down when a jag mate is around................
Kind regards
Mike

[Bob Viking]

I couldn't agree with you more.
I don't believe that at any stage I have suggested otherwise.
Thankfully we have seen sense where I work and if the urge really takes you can spend every waking moment in your flying suit. Judging by the smell of some I think that may actually be the case!
BV:} :ugh: :E
PS. Don't start all that rubbish. We all know there is only one force that should be receiving that kind of banter. It's not called tha f@g chariot for nothing you know.

[Michael Edic]

BV
Fair shout. I'll stick to pointing out the three traditions in the RN, all but one of which has been made illegal.........
Mike