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View Full Version : QANTAS Hypocrisy??


neville_nobody
14th Aug 2005, 04:34
Firstly no I have not been cut from QANTAS selection process.

How can QANTAS send out 1000's of letters each year to aspiring pilots saying 'Due to the large number of applicants you are not sufficently competitive' and then to offer to pay the way for a particular segment of the community to complete flying training??

Also considering that one of the questions on the QF selection sheet is tell them what difficulties you have overcome to get where you are now, how could you justify such a scheme??

The other issue here is that these guys that QF are paying for will not be seen by the greater Aboriginal Population. If QF were serious about indigenous employment then these Pilots would be sent into communities where they can encourage other aboriginal people to get education and offer them some hope and get the young fellas out of petrol sniffing etc. Paying for an aboriginal guy to sit in the RH seat of a Metro for a year then to go into the back seat of a 747, will not do a great deal for encouraging other aboriginal people to go somewhere with their lives.

From what I have seen of aboriginal employment schemes they are mearly "trophies" that companies can hold up and do nothing for the greater aboriginal population as the people who get the jobs generally don't want to go and work in the bush where most the aboriginal population lives!! The same problem occurs in other industries and is not limited to just flying.

2006 QANTAS INDIGENOUS CADET PILOT SCHOLARSHIP PROGRAM

Is your goal to be an Airline Pilot?

Qantas are seeking suitable Indigenous applicants to be considered for the 2006 Qantas Indigenous Cadet Pilot Scholarship Program. Qantas has introduced the Indigenous Cadet Pilot Scholarship Program to encourage aspiring Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to pursue a career in the aviation industry. The scholarship will be run in conjunction with the 2006 Qantas Cadet Pilot Training Program. Qantas will fund the flight training and accommodation costs for one successful Aboriginal and/or Torres Straight Islander Level 2 Cadet applicant during the training phase of the Program.


To be eligible, scholarship applicants must meet the Cadet Pilot Minimum Criteria. In addition applicants must be assessed as competitive during each stage of the selection process, as set out in the Cadet Selection Process Briefing Sheet. Applicants wishing to apply for the Indigenous Cadet Pilot Scholarship Program should indicate this on page one of the Cadet application form. The successful scholarship applicant will be notified on 27 January, 2006.


The Qantas Cadet Pilot Training Program is designed to equip successful graduates with the skills, qualifications and experience required for possible future entry into Qantas as a Second Officer.


Cadet pilots are not employees of Qantas and Qantas gives no guarantee or commitment of future employment at any time after completion of the training program.


The Qantas Cadet Pilot Training Program is comprised of two phases:

∑ A training phase including a full-time theory and flight training course at a participating Flight Training Organisation.
∑ A post-training phase involving compulsory flying employment experience under the Cadet Industry Placement Program (CIPP).


To apply for the 2006 Cadet Pilot Training Program you must print out and complete the Cadet application form. Your application should be posted to the address indicated on the form. In order for your application to be accepted it is essential that you include all supporting documentation requested on the form.


All applications must be postmarked by 5pm (local time) 30 September 2005, or be hand delivered or faxed by 5pm (AEST) on 30 September 2005.


Application forms and further information for the 2006 Cadet Pilot Training Program can be found on the Qantas website: www.qantas.com.au/info/about/employment/pilots.


For further information on the Qantas Indigenous Cadet Pilot Scholarship Program contact Mick Coombes, Indigenous Programs Adviser on 03 8696 2169 or [email protected]

Condensation
14th Aug 2005, 05:40
I think it's great Qantas started this scheme, but I highly doubt there are many Indigenous people with a CPL for Level 2!! :hmm:

Capt Stabbin
14th Aug 2005, 06:36
neville, you must be absolutely desperate to bag Qantas if this is this best you can do :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

gaunty
14th Aug 2005, 07:55
Capt you got that right. :ok:

40 years too late for me though.:{ and it wasn't then something you would have wanted made known as the local Protector of Aborigines was likely to send you to the local mission to be "saved" from the white man.

They were also the days when you were required to have an interview with the local QF manager before you were allowed the privilege of purchasing a ticket. If you didn't speak proper or own a suit and tie you would probably not get on.:*

That was then this is now.

Condensation we might be surprised the number, I don't have the answer but, anecdotally, suspect it is higher than we imagine.

Good on 'em, we and they have moved on a bit since :ok:

OCCR
14th Aug 2005, 08:03
neville I know what you mean!
However if they meet the qualifications without any given "special " privilidges then there would be no difference than anyone else in the job!
i wouldnt worry, there wont be many takers!

Condensation
14th Aug 2005, 08:20
gaunty, if there are quite a few out there, then I certainly hope the program would help! :)

Kaptin M
14th Aug 2005, 08:26
"Qantas will fund the flight training and accommodation costs for one successful Aboriginal and/or Torres Straight Islander Level 2 Cadet applicant during the training phase of the Program."
From what I have seen of aboriginal employment schemes they are mearly(sic) "trophies"I think you're right there, n_n

Transition Layer
14th Aug 2005, 13:51
Am I the only one who finds it more than a little co-incidental that it was announced during NAIDOC week :rolleyes:

Sonny Hammond
14th Aug 2005, 23:04
Not endorsing the cadet scheme, of which I have my own opinion, but its more to do with the fact that QF has to do this sought of thing.
Forget about the type of job this is. QF employs 25000 odd employees and if it doesn't provide these opportunities for minorities it will be in court as soon as a government funded group seek to exploit the oversight.

Simple.

Erin Brockovich
14th Aug 2005, 23:58
Aboriginal with a CPL Ė will never happen and Qantas know this. Thatís why they require a Level 2 entry cadet. If they offered a position for a level 1 they might accidentally get a few applications. Imagine the racial uproar if Qantas had to inform one of these aspiring cadet applicants that they didnít make the grade.

Very shallow on Qantasís part and an insult to hardworking professional pilots trying for a start in an airline. Also wandering what will constitute being aboriginal with Qantas? 1/1000 or full blood?

The_Cutest_of_Borg
15th Aug 2005, 01:06
Main Entry: in∑dig∑e∑nous
Pronunciation: in-'di-j&-n&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin indigenus, from Latin indigena, n., native, from Old Latin indu, endo in, within + Latin gignere to beget -- more at END-, KIN
1 : having originated in and being produced, growing, living, or occurring naturally in a particular region or environment
2 : INNATE, INBORN
synonym see NATIVE
- in∑dig∑e∑nous∑ly adverb
- in∑dig∑e∑nous∑ness noun

This is the meaning of indigenous. As far as I can see, you only have to be born here to qualify. If the lefties and others want to politicise the word then that is one thing, but I would dearly like to see someone make an issue of this an apply on the basis of the true definition of the word.

BankAngle50
15th Aug 2005, 01:45
Racists and politically correct Sydney bullshit!

Perhaps next we will see the Indigenous Carpark.

gaunty
15th Aug 2005, 01:49
Transition Layer why wouldn't they, it is after all, about our indigenous brethren.

I have never experienced any overt discrimination being fairly "safe" :rolleyes: at 1/16 indigenous blood and the product of a fairly determined effort by previous generations to "distance" our family from my great great grandmothers relationship with the son of the local "Protector of Aborigines". :sad:
His brother married Edith Cowan of the womans acitivist and first parliamentarian and University fame
A prominent Lake (Cowan) in WA was named by him when his father sent him off exploring with Giles to get him away from the scene of the "crime".

The subsequent human history of my great great and great grandmother is tragic but written in the context of the social mores of the time is not the least bit unique.

In hindsight the temptation denied by my parents to finance the considerable costs of my siblings private school, tertiary and vocational education including my pilot license and subsequent ratings to ATPL through the available schemes, was whilst perfectly understandable in the context of the aforesaid social mores, was maybe not such a good one.

It is only now after more than 100 years that we are able to talk about it "safely", :sad: with sensitivity to my parents and grandparents feelings about it.

My children are totally fascinated by the fairly recently revealed history (25 years) and are a bit cross that I didn't avail myself of the financial assistance available for their education at some of the more expensive private schools and Universities.
There goes my yacht and penthouse in Monaco.:}

I used the word overt because there was a much more subtle and powerful discrimination which is too complicated to reveal here and why there needs to be overt and proactive programmes such as detailed here to strike a balance.

I am not an activist in the "active" sense, but it strikes me that if Qantas or any Australain icon wishes to trade on the indigenous
culture for their "marketing" then all other issues aside, they have an obligation to those same people to be inclusive as far as their workforce is concerned.

I am not personally outraged that legislation is required to bring this outcome to pass or insulted that Erin Brokovich (speaking right out of that character BTW) should himself feel insulted :rolleyes: that Qantas should by doing so presumably knock him back a seniority number or two in his progress through life.

That was then this is now, let's get on with it eh!

Onya QF whatever the motivation.:ok:

Erin Brockovich
15th Aug 2005, 07:12
Gaunty, didnít mean to ruffle your feathers. It just seems to me that if Qantas was serious about this INDIGENOUS CADET PILOT SCHOLARSHIP PROGRAM then it would be offered at Ab Initio level. An Indigenous individual who already has the minimum criteria for level 2 entry I assume would not need any more assistance than any other pilot, financial or otherwise.

I agree that if Qantas or any Australain icon wishes to trade on the indigenous
culture for their "marketing" then all other issues aside, they have an obligation to those same people to be inclusive as far as their workforce is concerned.
I would like to think that any aspiring indigenous aboriginal applicant would want to get through on their own merits though. From what I have personally seen while working in aboriginal communities is that handouts cause most of the problems. Without going too deep, it all stems from a personís self worth. An individual needs to feel that they are valued by others in some way. Then they feel good about them selves and are motivated to keep being valued. Handouts do not help a persons self worth. I know because I was on the dole a long time ago, and not proud of it.

If Qantas want to give something back then why not help the bored, lost indigenous youths out in regional Australia. Sorry if I seemed narrow minded. I just feel that equality should be a double edged sword.

The Bullwinkle
15th Aug 2005, 07:18
Aboriginal with a CPL

Firstly, that should be Aborigine, and secondly, there are quite a few Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders who hold CPL's

Erin Brockovich
15th Aug 2005, 07:51
I think you mean there are quite a few Australians of Aboriginal descent who hold CPL's.

Capt Claret
15th Aug 2005, 07:59
Erin B said, Aboriginal with a CPL Ė will never happen

WRONG I've worked with two that spring to mind. Both have flown RPT jets with white rats on the tail, one holds a jet command, t'other has moved to greener pastures with Cathay.

As for t'others who winge about aboriginal people getting hand outs etc. if they're on such a good wicket, why don't you become naturalised and take advantage of their general conditions of life ....

Erin Brockovich
15th Aug 2005, 08:10
Capt, would both of your work colleagues been happy to accept a scholarship because of who their great grand parents were? I think we all have a different idea on what the definition of a true aboriginal is. That seems to be the problem here. I also never said anything about aboriginal people being on a good wicket.

Capt Claret
15th Aug 2005, 08:22
Erin, I didn't say you did say they were on a good wicket.

As for accepting a scholarship. I don't know a pilot alive who wouldn't have accepted some sort of financial assistance from a company or government, unless perhaps it came with unreasonable conditions of servitude, and I don't think this scheme incorporates servitude.

drshmoo
15th Aug 2005, 08:47
There is a young aspiring CPL wannabee named CLEARPROP from Oombie trying to follow daddies footsteps, cause he made it. TL has been an inspiration to us all, especially his son Clear Prop

gaunty
15th Aug 2005, 09:42
Erin feathers not ruffled, just trying somehow to point out that it is because of the "white mans" attitudes of the past, something that was then part of our culture, is the reason why we now have to run these programmes that appear to be a form of reverse discrimination.

In the context of the sixties any young aboriginal who had somehow managed to get the education and licenses presenting himself to Qantas or any airline would have been an object of much embarrassment to the selection board.

The Chauvels groundbreaking movie "Jedda" had only been in circulation less than 10 years.

I am personally fascinated by "Australian" :rolleyes: accents and the language forms used in relation to the "little woman", "foreigners" and "Aboriginals" in the Movietone news and early TV of the times.

Australia was only barely post colonial in the mid sixties and it wasn't until the likes of Holt that we started to shed the colonial habits of the past.
British was best.
It seems unbelievable now, but Qantas were still ordering new DH Rapides whilst the rest of the non British world were operating DC2 types. The KLM DC2 at Albury is more than just interesting for this reason.

Interestingly enough, the Australian Government "Two Airline Policy" grew directly out of TAA, Ansett and Qantas refusing point blank to accept our British motherlands aviation product.

Australia did not have very large US Dollar reserves, the motherland British Government was selling aircraft the way they always have, by EXIM financing, trade offset, subsidy and generally bullying the colonials if necessary. Comets, BAC111 and Vanguards were simply hugely uneconomic against the US Boeing and Lockheed products.

Oz Government finally gave in but to protect the huge for the time, US Dollar investment, (the US manufacturers insisted on real cash money) :), they legislated the protection.

The White Australia Policy wasn't just about the yellow peril, white meant white and Aboriginal half caste children were still being sent to the missions by "native welfare" :rolleyes: until the early 70's.

Pinky the pilot
15th Aug 2005, 11:31
Re Aboriginal Pilots; what about Len Waters, the Kittyhawk Pilot with 78 Sqn during WW11? According to various articles published in the last few years that I have read about this distinguished gentleman, he claimed to be nothing more than an Australian fighting for his country. And if memory serves me correctly he deplored the hand out mentality that prevailed in the 70's.
I have an article of an interview with him done back in the early 70's somewhere in amongst my 'files'. Will try to find it.

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

pullock
15th Aug 2005, 15:03
A few years ago my education path found me studying some Aboriginal health subjects, learning about how Australia was occupied under tera nullius (why didn't they teach me that at high school ????), and protesting to maintain indigenous health courses. I became quite good mates with one of the aboriginal guys on the course, and across time became aware of the every day discrimination that he faces that is un-founded and un-fair.

Discrimination comes in many forms - particularly positive discrimination, which I feel that is particularly damaging as it creates more division and descrimination than it resolves. Most of the sentiment expressed in this thread demonstrates my point exactly - people resent the idea that a person because of their heritage, however unfortunate, receive more opportunity than themselves. This is the exact reason that nepotism is a dirty word.

Positive discrimination is still discrimination, because it labels people.

Gaunty, you make the point that if QF want to use aboriginal symbols in their marketing that they should pay for it - I don't dispute this, but the fact is that all along the way they do - they pay the artists handsomly, as well as ongoing royalties, whilst at the same time increasing the penetration of aboriginal culture in society -- it's a win-win. Playing devils advocate, you do not see the Australian-Anglo, or Asian, or American cultures used in Qantas' advertising receiving special consideration..............Once again an example of positive discrimination - it's everywhere.

I'm afraid I am an advocate of a level playing field. There is a problem still with discrimination and I don't know the solution, but I do know what is not the solution, and that is standing two pilots of equal skill and qualification next to each other, and rejecting the white one because of the colour of his skin. THAT is discrimination, the impact of which is felt greates by the minority.

Merlins Magic
15th Aug 2005, 23:04
What has happened to EQUAL OPPORTUNITY in this country.

We need to get over the us and them way of thinking. It is not only limited to the Aboringines and the 'white fellas', but it is everywhere in our lives.

The fact is, that for a society to function correctly, there needs to be people of different levels. The white collars and the blue collars. The haves and the have not's. The Doctors and the Street Sweepers. Everyone has a role to play in forming what is a functioning community.

It also goes a step further when companies implement quotas. We need 20% female, 5% A&TSI, etc. All this does is puts underqualified people into positions and qualified and better suited people out of a job. Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with anyone filling any role as long as you are the best suited and qualified person for that job.

Several years ago I heard of an Australian bank that wanted to open a small branch in New York City. They were told that they needed to employ something like 6 females, 3 people of Mexican heritage, 1 of Red Indian heritage and 2 people with a disability. The CBA only wanted a total staff of about 3 or 4 so consequently never opened the branch.

It would appear that this is not only a local problem. We need to change our mentality to be an 'us' mentality, not an us and them.

MM

Blamping
18th Aug 2005, 10:00
I'm an Aboriginal. I would like to see QF prove me wrong.

OhForSure
22nd Aug 2005, 13:11
MM:
Couldn't agree more. No probs with anyone doing any job, regardless of background. But where do you draw the line (with quotas etc.)... when can it be called discrimination against WHITE MALES??? Best person for the job gets it in my opinion.

Casper
22nd Aug 2005, 21:16
Nearly every government form asks the question:
Are you an Aborigine or Torres Strait Islander?

Does this question discriminate against all other Australians?

bhundi
5th Oct 2005, 12:16
Just wondering if any aboriginal CPL's out there have applied for the 06' QF cadet program, and what the response has been?

Repro
5th Oct 2005, 12:29
By the way, the dot paintings by Aboriginals, was actually taught to them by white missionaries. It is not what you would call traditional aboriginal painting.

Where does that get us?

Nicad
5th Oct 2005, 20:12
You know maybe someone at Qantas believes that both enthnic minorities and women have been overlooked during the selection process. And if thats the case whos to say that we haven't been getting preferential treatment for the last so many years. Its definetly a political issue but Qantas have decided that the only way to overcome these issues or what ever there issues are is to expand their already diverse employee base. I bet that people at Qantas are just as unhappy about the process as some of the pilots here but i also think in reality it is the best way to start bridging the gap in some peoples education. Comments like there won't be many who hold a cpl. Or those who judge them on the basis of what they hear through the news says that we do still need to educate people.

With that said i dont think any company should be aloud to target a specific gender or race for a job, or more importantly discriminate a gender or a race from applying for a job. In fact i thought it was illegal but obviously not.

On the other hand though, even though I don't think they should be able to do it I'm not going to kid myself I know if they advertised for my ethnic group i would be taking full advantage of the situation. This business has always been about who you know and not what you know. I've never sat down and started bitching about how joe bloggs got into xyz company because his father knows someone. In fact i've gone out there and tried to network so i could do the same thing. As far as I can tell the aborogines seem to know one more person then i do now and good for them.

Nicad

(i'm not one to check my spelling)

neville_nobody
9th Oct 2005, 03:00
Repro
As I understood it dot paintings were originally maps of their lands. The more modern artistic versions of the dot paintings have had some white influence but the originals were actually aboriginal. How they managed to get topograhical views of their lands is without ever getting in an aeroplane is another matter!

Nicad

Whilst I agree with you point over working smarter and who you know etc, my original point is that QANTAS in all their recruiting documentation go on and on about how they are making the system fair as possible (by making you pay for it) and when you call them they are always going on about how busy they are and how many applications they get, sorry your application has been delayed by 2 months due to the high number of applicants etc etc.

So IF that is all true why the hell do you need indigenous cadetships?? What will it achieve?? Why should an aboriginal pilot be giving extra opportunities over everyone else in such a competitive market place??

Capt Claret
9th Oct 2005, 04:45
Neville,

.... why the hell do you need indigenous cadetships?? What will it achieve?? Why should an aboriginal pilot be giving extra opportunities over everyone else in such a competitive market place??

Indiginous cadetships might be needed because most non indiginous children in Australia are not born into sub 3rd world conditions, whereas the same can't be said for most indiginous kids. Most non indiginous kids have reasonably easy access to contemporary schooling. The same can't be said for indigenous kids.

In the Territory, the former CLP government had a policy of not providing secondary schooling facilities at indiginous communities. This policy was rescinded by the current ALP goventment and in 2003 or 2004, the first indigenous students completed year 12 in their home town. This is a feat that most non indiginous students in Australia would take for granted for them selves.

By giving such opportunities, a small building brick is laid in repairing some of the failures of past policies, at little cost/inconvenience to the poor suffering non indiginous folk.

Poto
9th Oct 2005, 06:08
How they managed to get topographical views of their lands is without ever getting an aeroplane is another matter :confused:

"Ehh Wen you bin on dat Karva you see dem homelands real good eh":E

psycho joe
9th Oct 2005, 07:18
In the Territory, the former CLP government had a policy of not providing secondary schooling facilities at indigenous communities.
Correct, that's because the kids were sent to boarding schools in the big cities where the kids could receive education without any negative influence (i.e. petrol sniffing, molestation) from their community. But that's surely beside the point.

Regardless of how this ONE PERSON gets into the big Q, at the end of the day check and training don't discriminate and this person will have to meet the same performance requirements as anyone else.

And if it happens to be someone who's come from some hell hole community, managed to get an education, present well in an interview and pass all the required training etc, then good on them. :ok:

Capt Claret
9th Oct 2005, 07:51
psycho,

They may have been sent to boarding school for a "better education" but that concept didn't take into account that as a broad generalisation, indigenous kids don't cope with being away from extended family as well as non indigenous.

Imagine the howls of protest if all the state govts announced a policy that all children not living in the capital city had to attend boarding school because local schools were to be closed!

psycho joe
9th Oct 2005, 08:23
Capt,

I've had the experience of flying some of these kids back out to their communities during school holidays. Sure some kids did suffer anxiety from being away from their families, but I've also seen a LOT of Aboriginal kids do almost anything in their power to avoid going back to their community.

I've also flown white kids of station managers etc, who didn't qualify for government private school funding because they weren't indigenous.

As for myself, I grew up in a small country town and would have loved to have gone to a private school instead of the shite public school we were inflicted with.

I've also flown with Melanesian pilot's who have achieved more with less.

bhundi
9th Oct 2005, 10:52
I just want to say its fantastic that QF have put this scholarship together. What a great way to influence other young aboriginal people around the nation! Anyone want to take a shot at how many applied?

happydriver
10th Oct 2005, 12:01
Mate......how long is a peice of [email protected]#$%^&*....this debate (for lack of a better word) will unfortunately never be resolved.At the end of the day, whomever he/she is , whatever colour their skin is, whatever their racial/cultural background,whatever road/scheme they were apart of be it cadet,ex military,ga......my hats off to anyone who perceivers and achieves his/her ambitions.....we all need a break somewhere down the track so why should that constitute as being less deserving.

I'm sure there will still be plenty of places left for the rest of us....here's hoping that your break comes sooner than later neville.

:ok:

HD.