Health and safety row over helicopter

[Heliport]

Havant News online Health and safety row over helicopter
A HELICOPTER firm is demanding compensation after a council said its pleasure rides were a danger to the public.
Staff at Elite helicopters, which takes members of the public on aerial tours, were stunned when council officers appeared during a pay-and-ride event on Hayling Island and told them to stop.
Health and safety officers from Havant Borough Council were worried that danger warning signs had only been scrawled on cardboard.
The officers also said passengers were boarding while the rotor blades were still turning, and a lack of fluorescent visibility vests and a readily-accessible fire extinguisher was dangerous.
Now Elite, based at Goodwood Aerodrome, Chichester, wants £2,000 to compensate for lost takings at last week's Hayling Carnival.
The Civil Aviation Authority said Elite had conformed to all safety regulations on the day.

[Tony Chambers]

This is the attitude of most councils, I have been refused to operate at Brighton because helicopters and the public are dangerous. They can't grasp that the groundcrew and the operators have plenty of experience and training. Maybe it should be said that getting on a bus in a busy high street should be considered dangerous due to the lack of control, high vis vests and signage. :mad:
To carry out a risk assessment in accoradnace with H+S regulation the person conducting the assessment must have experience and sound knowledge of the area of risk. I bet the council officers didn't have an ounce of Helicopter knowledge or experience.
Hope Elite kick ass.

[pants on fire...]

Was that the tilt-rotor or the EH-101 that you were going to use in Brighton? :} :oh: :ooh: :8

[Tony Chambers]

i never though that joining this forum would mean being the butt of such drab humour. :yuk:

[B Sousa]

Only in the UK. You folks have rules upon rules, but its a good thing. It keeps otherwise unemployed folks in positions of power.....
In the states we have the same they call it TSA.

[Flying Lawyer]

You're right Bert.
The saddest aspect is that complying with rules is so deeply ingrained in our culture we seem to thrive on them, and might even be lost without them.
Worse, some of us are rather too quick to condemn anyone who fails to comply with them - regardless of how silly the rule happens to be and the circumstances of the breach.

[MBJ]

I feel very sorry for Elite and wish them all the best in their action. The Health and Safety fascists need to be curbed. Know nothing and good for nothing.

I believe the CAA should be pro-active on this one as well and ask the H&S lot what the hell they think they are doing. Flying belongs to the CAA and we all pay them quite enough to regulate us without having to kowtow to a bunch of ignorant outsiders.

[NickLappos]

I am very glad that I can wear an orange vest and then walk into a rotor blade. I always thought the color orange made anything safe!

Yes, and the public needs a sign next to a helicopter, otherwise they'd think it was some sort of blender!

[VeeAny]

MBJ

Well said, I've only met the guys at elite once or twice and they seem a good bunch, flown for them indirectly and it was all very professionally done.

I'd be supremely p'd off if that happened to me, who does have control @ a pleasure flying site, the operator, the caa or the local council perhaps raises some issues which need addressing for all of us.

Hope it all goes well for elite anyway.


V

[Helinut]

It may help Glenn to know that the HSE and CAA agreed "who does what". It got written down in a Memorandum of Understanding. If the H&S boys ignored what was agreed, I would have thought there may well be grounds for costs.

The basic idea was that if an operator complied with the CAA rules, this was agreed to be enough. I think it is on a website somewhere.If Glenn is interested, perhaps he could PM me, and I will try to find it.

[John Eacott]

The nanny state has crept quietly and intrusively into our operations downunder: hi-vis vests are required for all personnel on the ramp, including pilots walking to their aircraft, on all capital city airports :(

Then there's our anti terrorism laws, which have decreed that all GA aircraft must be secured, even when on the ramp outside the office :confused: :rolleyes: Normal door locks are considered insufficient, but this sign will protect us against Bin Liner :ok:

http://trapdoor.darb.net/albums/hoth-dp-flight-060805/cmIMG_5643.sized.jpg

[Tony Chambers]

The precedent as been set for all local councils health and safety reps to shut down helicopter pleasure flights. I was at Eastbourne airbourne on Sunday and the local council allowed pleasure trips, it just maybe that if a local council gets nothing out of the pleasure trips or don,t like the noise then they just make an escuse like saftey to stop it. Brighton are the same and i hope that Elite win the case and show local councils that it is not them who run the operations. Unless of course they own the land.

[rotorcraig]

It may help Glenn to know that the HSE and CAA agreed "who does what". It got written down in a Memorandum of Understanding.There is a link to the Memorandum of Understanding between the CAA SRG and the HSE (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=17&pagetype=90&pageid=700) on the CAA website.

Looks complex with a number of separate annexes to the MoU covering specific areas of aviation activity ... haven't tried to understand them!

RC

[EESDL]

Was quizzed by a guy once whilst PF'ing.
assumed he was the CAA Inspector until some of his stupid, inane questions made me realise that not even the CAA would employ such tactics.
He was the local council H&S inspector! Showed him all the regs/permissions etc (signed by his feckin boss!!).

I think you can get quite bold and mention to these people that you haven't got any insurance, thought you'd just turn up as you were passing (along with the fire truck and groundcrew), and see if you could waste your time flying some punters at some hole of a Steam Rally in the middle of nowhere.............................

Strange, having worked for Elite for a number of years, whenever it was a council-run event, the organisers always got a freebie........didn't stop the odd ignoramous though.

TOLERATE THIS AND YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE NEXT.

If Elite do get a payout - wonder if the pilot will be compensated for lost earnings - 80 lifts atleast!!!

Go to em Shazza

[Heli-Ice]

John Eacott

That sign sure beats every other security measures! It would scare me away...

The Brits just love rules, I believe your reg's begin with the sentence, "thou shalt not fly unless....."

Really says it all.

The lot at those councils are more often than not on a power trip and helicopter pilots and operators seem more vulnerable than others, which explains a harrassment like this.

[ec135driver]

It's true! CAP 393 The Air Navigation Order begins:

....................an aircraft shall not fly in or over the United Kingdom unless.................

Start as you mean to go on eh?

[Farmer 1]

ec135driver,

First of all, you are too specific, and then you add a condition.

Keep things simple - just remember - "An aircraft shall not fly." (ANO).

[Head Turner]

Hey you guys who are justifiably correct in that the UK are swamped with rules and have officers who will ensure that those rules are not contravened.
All the H & S crap comes from Germany and the UK are dutiful!
But the real culprits in this sorry saga are the judges and the lawyers who line their pockets on the cases brought before the courts.
Children are now not permitted to play in the school playgrounds as the school could be held liable for any injury that occurs to little Johnny who happens to fall over.

It's a sad world and the litigation mania started in the USA and is spreading round the world. It's a virus for which there is no antidote.

Best of luck 'Elite', but I fear the blindness of the courts will leave you out of pocket.

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

I fail to see what it had to do with the local council. I would have politely told them to go away and leave a temporary operational heliport. I would have said the pilot had overhaul jurisdiction over the police and local council in regard to the heliport.

[heli1]

I understand Elite will be complaining formally to the Council and good luck to them as the H&S officer in question clearly had no professional experience on the subject and was not supported by the CAA.It appears he was more influenced by the complaint of a local councillor than his professional judgement.
HSE and the CAA have frequently approved identical helicopter operations and the industry needs to stand up to such bullying tactics.
If it had been me I would have asked him to put his objections and concerns in writing before I considered them and then asked if he would sign a form accepting full responsibility for any accident caused by changing to his rules.He probably would not have wanted to do that in which case I would have challenged him to stop me!
As someone else has said he would have had no jurisdiction,except perhaps that in this case it was council-owned land .However the authority had previously given permission so he still didn't have a leg to stand on as Elite were working to CAA gudelines.

[jbrereton]

It would be a shame to stop the pleasure flying. I have attended quite a lot in Northern Ireland as a helper and Operations Manager in charge over the last few years and it is the only chance that most people will ever have to fly in a helicopter. The joy on their faces when they get out is gratifying for all the hard work involved.
God help us from the Nanny State.
JB

[Tony Chambers]

I don't want this reply to be perceived as a advertisement, I have just written a qualification for helicopter ground staff that includes an H&S section this qualification can also represent helicopter ground operation standards. I believe that if a standard exists that includes H&S then this kind of local council bullying could not happen because not only would there be CAA backing but also approved sector skill standards recognising skills, knowledge, understanding, competence, currency and qualification.