Shift Pattern vs Fatigue

[Clever Bloke]

Just how tired do you feel at the end of your shift?
I work a 7 on 3 off, 7 on 4 off earlies/lates pattern. After day 4 or 5 I am tired. Come day 7 I don't know what day of the week it is and feel genuinely exhausted and am still expected to certify work on an aircraft!!!!!!!

How do you think my boss would react if I went into his office towards the end of shift and quoted Airworthiness Notice 47 at him.

The standard reply would be...IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT YOU KNOW WHERE THE GATE IS!

It's about time the CAA talked to us, the ones that fix the aircraft about fatigue and not the people doing the employing.

[Multi-X]

Sounds like one of BA's weird & wonderful shift patterns.

I don't think it is possible to beat 4 on & 4 off. Best shift I have ever worked.

As for AWN 47 it is the easy get out for the CAA - if you feel worn out or sick don't work but not practical in the real world.

[Flying Banana]

Clever Bloke, you should try 7 off, 7 off, bloody tiring all this gardening leave! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

[Bus429]

Any company that tried to sack an engineer (like there's a glut right now!) for raising the issue of fatigue shouldn't be in the business!!!????
As Multi-X said, 47 is a good cop out in that it puts the onus on you. Note the wording "duty of care" in para 3.1.

As I related in an earlier post, the Accountable Manager is just that and he/she has a responsibility in this regard. Most of them are not aware of this.

Multi-X, from a personal point of view, the 4 on (2 day, 2 night) shift just about cooked me. It was not so much the work-load but trying to sleep during the day and being consequently shattered for the next shift.

If you're 40 or over, give it up or do longer stints of nights if you cannot get off them. Your body does adjust if you do long stretches of nights. Did you know your circadian rhythum (is that the correct spelling?)is on a 25 to 27 rather than 24 hour pattern?

[Bus429]

Any company that tried to sack an engineer (like there's a glut right now!) for raising the issue of fatigue shouldn't be in the business!!!????
As Multi-X said, 47 is a good cop out in that it puts the onus on you. Note the wording "duty of care" in para 3.1.

As I related in an earlier post, the Accountable Manager is just that and he/she has a responsibility in this regard. Most of them are not aware of this.

Multi-X, from a personal point of view, the 4 on (2 day, 2 night) shift just about cooked me. It was not so much the work-load but trying to sleep during the day and being consequently shattered for the next shift.

If you're 40 or over, give it up or do longer stints of nights if you cannot get off them. Your body does adjust if you do long stretches of nights. Did you know your circadian rhythm (is that the correct spelling?)is on a 25 to 27 rather than 24 hour pattern?

[greaseytech]

Clever Bloke

Do you work at Taff's Garage? If so, then I can understand that it might be a little difficult ot move elswhere. I know a bloke who did work there, and when this wonderful new shift was imposed he went hot foot over to Spotty M. This shift is rediculous. If enough of you are as fed up with it as you say, then if there was a mass walk out due to sickness/fatigue/stress, then perhaps your managers might wake up to the fact that we are all human and need some time away from the workface. What has your union to say on this matter? Surely you have one now under new legislation. Hope all goes well for you, and this stupid shift gets kicked out for all our sakes.

[Clever Bloke]

NO I DO NOT WORK AT TAFF'S GARAGE!
I've got more sense than to work for that dictatorship.

Nightshift.....have we really evolved for millions of years to work nights? Do I have large eyes and go Twit-Twoo?

The human body is designed to sleep when it's dark and work/play when it's light.

Another scenario....imagine working 7 on 3 off, 7 on 4 off with every third late shift being turned into an early. 21 straight day's. That's 21 days getting up at 04:30. Now you try to sleep late on your days off.

Your body clock even wakes you up at that hour after a late shift.

NOT GOOD!

[spannersatcx]

I believe CHIRP are doing some research/investigation into shift patterns it may be worth dropping them a line, complete confidentiality is assured http://www.chirp.dircon.co.uk/

[greaseytech]

Clever Bloke

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend, I was only asking! So where else workes this wonderful shift?

We at White Hatters still don't know our winter shift yet, but we have been told that we will need to be schedualed to work over weekends. There have been a few suggestions thrown our way for discussion, but there has been a lot of bad feeling over this and other issues. But things may change when we start singing German, German Overalls

[Flying Banana]

Greaseytech

The lovely 7/4 7/3 shift is an LHR shift pattern which was introduced at LGW Longhaul tech a while back by one of the most disliked managers in BA Engineering. Incidentally his previous claim to fame was setting up Taff's Garage and his catch phrase was ' If you don't like it, you know where the door is so f**k off' And he wondered why nobody had a single iota of respect for him.

Give me 2Days 2 Nights 4 off anytime, although the old BA LGW 757 majors shift was the best, the one with the long weekend off and as I recall it six off at one point in the pattern, Clever Bloke knows the one!

Nil spares available, ADD refers...

[Mice]

I always found the best shift patterns were the ones that were promulgated by the engineers themselves actually.

On occasion, management would put out a new roster which was a complete stuff up. Engineers asked what the required coverage was, and never failed to come up with a roster that was far more workable, yet did not cost the company any more. Suffice to say, these rosters were worked for the longest uninterrupted periods.

------------------
When all else fails, read the manual!

[Clever Bloke]

Agreed. But for engineers to produce a shift pattern that works off their own backs needs management that cares. We have management that don't give a stuff.

All we hear is "It doesn't fit the bussiness"

How many pilots have a duty time of 56 hours before having a break?????

[5-CATS @¿@]

I worked 4on 4off for the last 8 years and whilst the time off seems OK. It is very difficult for your family.I have worked day shift mon to fri for a year now , and while my wife really appreciates the regular hours.
I miss having as much time off as the shift work allowed. Not to mention no traffic to work, and able to do business/bill paying before closing time. In OZ there are a few places with 4on 5off shifts. (36 hour week).
But I found an early start (3 am) on the day/early shift the real killer. Another factor to consider is how busy you are at work for the night work, it is hard to get to sleep at 5-6 am when you can hear the airline aircraft taking off overhead you spent all night working on!!!! Another "trend" with commuter airlines in OZ is to call people in (avionics mainly) as there is always a shortage of license coverage over here.I think you really need the days off, and the extra callouts/overtime was what really killed me in the end. I guess sometimes you just have to put the phone off the hook.!!!!

Ô¿Ô

[Taff Missed]

What the hell is Taff's garage?

I may have to change my Username.

----------------------

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[aeroguru]

B.A.M.C.=British airways maintenance,=garage. Cardiff, Wales.Taff=Welsh nickname.

[Clever Bloke]

The phrase is.."Not anougher banger from Taff's Garage"

The 7 on 3 off 7 on 4 off shift pattern was first invented in the early 1950's when we had just crawled out of WW2 and the population was so happy to get back to work they'd work any shift pattern required by the bosses.
This was an era when, maybe, family values were not as high profile as today.

Today we are meant to be in the age of leisure, unless of course you happen to work in the aviation industry on a shift pattern that totally destroys all family and social life.

Can anybody come up with a shift pattern that puts 2/3 of your workforce on earlys and 1/3 on lates with 7 days a week cover? Sensible ideas only please!

[tim-ing]

I have worked the BA 7473 shift pattern for 25 years now and loved most of it, 18 days p.a. extra to do with as you please and a long weekend every 3 weeks, to nip away somewhere on staff travel is NICE.
BUT at 47, with the increasing LAME workload and the demands of family life I am struggling to complete an early shift and find a late shift even more tiring with late to bed and early rising eating into the rest period. I am prepared to try anything to break this cycle now. My doctor says, "Well now you know the problem what are you going to do about it ?" he is aware that our profession is similar to his and that we are caught between our chosen career and providing for our family in the way we know best. It is a major issue and knowing how CHIRP works it won't be resolved by them until an incident that can be identified as caused by weariness is recorded. This will never happen as failiure to perform due weariness is now covered by AWN 47. It is for LAME's to tell their accountable manager they are tired and that it accounts for the odd sick day taken for recovery from overwork. It seems to be an age versus lifestyle thing, if you are able to grow old without the demands of a family 7473 would be OK,
if your family can plan their life around 4 on 4 off that would be OK, but life isn't like that. I have seen a shift pattern that might work given a trial, but the managers gave up on it before the workforce had a chance to try it, 3 earlies, 4 lates, 4 rest, 4 lates, 3 earlies, 3 rest etc. Has anyone tried it? How did you get on?

[Clever Bloke]

Just where does this extra 18 days come from then?

I certainly wasn't given 18 extra days off when I was posted onto the coffin shift.

The only way you can enjoy this shift is to totally give up your social and family life until you break down physically or mentally.

I know of people that have been driven to attempted suicide over shift patterns.

WILL NOBODY LISTEN?????

[tim-ing]

If you take the 7473 shift pattern add the days up it comes to 21. You work 14 days of the 21.
If you work 5 days a week for 21 days you work 15 days out of that 21.
The leave entitlement is the same in our company whichever shift you work.
Divide 365 days by 21 and it comes to 17.3 extra days off. Use your leave entitlement carefully and it gives you 18 days a year you don't have to go to work over the 5 day week worker.
To take 2 weeks off a 7473 worker has to file 7 leave days off.
To take 2 weeks off a 5 day week worker has to file at least 10 days.
A 5 day a week worker can take 16 days off in a row and use 10 days leave.
A7473 worker only has to take 9 days leave off to have 16 days off in a row.

If I'm wrong please tell me.

I haven't done the sums for 12 hour shifts 4 on 4 off but given you have to take 1.5 leave days to get 12 hours away from work it should reduce the days you actually turn up for work considerably.

[tim-ing]

Let's face it whatever shift system you work - you have to be prepared to build your life around it and get family and friends to accept that is what you have to do to earn a living doing what you've chosen to do. What does a long haul flight crew member or a F1 GP team mechanic do?
It's not the shift work that puts you in danger - it's how you manage your free time.
If you try to live with people who either don't work at all or work another type of shift you have to come to an agreement about how to give yourself the rest you need to contribute circa £34K into the family coffers on an annual basis.
It isn't easy - I know that better than most - but if you want to stay in compliance with AWN 47 you have to control your lifestyle and not let it control you. It will make you a party pooper and you will not be there on a weekly/monthly basis if you indulge in weekly/monthly occuring events.
That however is that.
While you are young you can get away with burning the candle at both ends, if you try to extend that into middle age and beyond you will find that something has to give.
Don't feel guilty about the fact that you will miss some events in life and don't let other people make you feel quilty, especially if you contribute the bulk of the income.
When it comes to the kids, spend more time with them in the holidays taking them places that are free of other people because they are busy working. Enjoy travelling in off peak periods. Use the gym and swimming pool when it's quiet, there are benefits to shift work. You must know some?
If you are driven to thoughts of suicide then there are obviously more than shift work problems in your life. It is either guilt, paranoia, inadequecy, money problems, over commitment or something like that, usually it is somebody else off loading their problems on you.
Engineers, sorry mechanicsslashtechnicians can fix anything you know.
Do not let any feelings you have build up into anger. Be open about the fact you are knackered with your management, your colleagues, your family, you deserve support and help. I tell my manager he is being unrealistic when his work plan for me isn't achieveable, that way he isn't surprised when my team doesn't acheive. It's not only me that's tired, the cleverest blokes are too!
It's no good bleating to this forum and having a coronary at work the morning after. Except that the beneficieries from your pension contributions will be quids in if you "pop your clogs in harness".
If you feel hard done by having to do your shift, look at what other professionals are asked to do on a regular basis, for half the money, consider it all, before giving yourself a hard time. The fact that Joe Public wants to fly on a wet Sunday night in May to Bilbao isn't your fault, the fact that a 757 undergoing a well earned major overhaul costing mega bucks isn't your fault! But it is the chance to make some extra cash that will help buy the kids and yourself a better holiday.

[CONES R US]

The best shift I ever worked was in the RAF on Nimrod Line at St.Mawgan. We had 3 shifts and did a week of earlies (7.30 - 4.30), a week of lates (4.30 - 12.00) and a week of nights (12.00 - 7.30). Each shift had 2 halves. We all did days and lates up until Thursday, then on Friday only half the shift came in. We would work the whole week-end and then have a week off while the other half did the nights. This would the reverse for the following 3 weeks. This meant only working 1 week-end in 6 and having a long week-end for the other 5. Obviously this would only work for the RAF as you couldn't keep people in work for 48 hours + in a civilian job, but it was excellent - especially in the summer with all those tourists and parties.....oh happy memories.
Back in the real world I now do 4 days 4 off 4 nights 4 off, and to be honest it's almost as good. I get time off to do things when other people are in work and if I take 6 days holiday I get 12 days off. Getting up early is only a problem if social events coincide with my shift, but you have to live to work and not work to live.

------------------
NO FAULT FOUND

[Blacksheep]

The worst shift I ever worked was permanent nights. Despite what someone said earlier about adapting, it just never happens. I found it impossible to continue night-shift hours during the days off.

The best shift I ever worked is the one I'm on now. We work from Monday to Friday from 8am to 5pm then we have Saturday and Sunday off. It's very convenient for keeping in touch with the family and just basically having a life. The down side is that the shift pay is lousy :) Still, you can't have everything can you?

It's just an unfortunate fact of aviation life that ours is a round the clock operation. I waited a LONG time to get into my present situation and I'll fight you to the death to keep it! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

*********************************
Through difficuties to the cinema

[This message has been edited by Blacksheep (edited 11 July 2000).]

[gas path]

From a personal point of view the 7473 shift suited me fine especially for the other jobs on the midweek days off :) The only shift I couldn't get used to was permanent nights, I would get home shattered and unless I was woken up at about 14.00 I'd sleep right through until it was time to go back to work. Not good in the middle of winter!

[Clever Bloke]

4 0n 4 off pattern. Simple maths shows you work approx 185 days a year. 7/3/7/4 has you working 245 ish days a year! We get a 6 extra leave days and a few bob more in the wage packet for the priviledge of having to "attend" an extra 60 days a year.

4/4 shift: 4 days leave = 12 days off
8 days leave = 20 days off

7/3/7/4: 7 days leave = 14 days off

All seems quite straight forward doesn't it?

[mattp]

To all the airline engineers and technicians out there!!

just to let you all know that there is a new aviation bulletin board specifically designed to make your job search easier.
http://www.aviationjobsearch.com has over 5000 aviation related positions available from some of the best aviation companies and agencies worldwide. Search through the existing vacancies and subscribe to the joblist email which notifies you when a new engineering position becomes available.

Currently there are loads of aviation engineer and technical positions so check it out when you have time.

thanks.

[tim-ing]

If you 4 on 4 off - on a twelve hours shift don't you have to take the the equivalent of a day and a half of leave so 4/4 shift: 6 days leave = 12 days off 12 days leave = 20 days off and 7/3/7/4: 7 days leave = 14 days off Under my contract I have work 1716 hours a year. I had to work all this info out 10 years ago. This figure is less my leave 26 day leave entitlement.
143 attendances a year on 12 hour shift 4o4o
171 attendances a year on 10 hour shift 4o4o
208 attendances a year on 8.25 hour shift7473
214.5 attendances per annum on 8 hour days
5 days a week. If you think I'm knocking 4o4o you are wrong. I wouldn't knock anything I haven't tried. My comparison was 7473 shift against 5 a day week on 8 hour days.

[4Rvibes]

I have worked almost every shift pattern known to man (and manager). From the worst (3 twelve hour days, 3 twelve hour nights, 3 days off). To the best 4 on, 4 off. Even with the best system in the world you can still work unlimited overtime and not be punished by the CAA.
Now I don't want to be as regulated as the pilots ('cos they have a living wage without OT) but how many accidents/incidents have been caused or contributed to through fatigue?
Human factors and AWN 47 as everybody knows is a pure corporate ass covering excercise.When was the last time you saw an AAIB report say the engineer was fatigued and screwed up?
Every AAIB report details the pilots'last 28 day total, 90 day total for flying hours PLUS they all have to submit DUTY time sheets monthly.
My question is this..Fatigue matters, What is the way forward.

[redtail]

Human Factors has always sounded like it would improve our situations but as you said it only seems to be protective speach for management. No one wants to get involved with our grubby problems until too late.

Now you serfs get back to work.

[Flying Banana]

Having seen the state of friends who have moved from 4 on 4 off to 7/3/7/4 I wouldn't touch it with someone else's bargepole. If being permanently knackered with zero social life is what you want then its the best shift pattern.

tim-ing in an earlier post you mentioned longhaul crew and F1 mechanics. From friends in the 'Nigel' fraternity a longhaul flight crew member at Hounslow Flying Club averages one and a half sectors a month, not a bad shift!

As for F1 mechanics I can't comment on them but have just spent a year working in Touring Cars for one of the works teams, the work is great but the job sucks if that makes sense. Hence I jacked it in at easter.

Spend all winter with bugger all to do waiting for designers to think up some new wacky mods, paint workshop and clean stuff all day every day, then from February onwards work till 0830-2300, just about every weekend and spend two or three days a week dragging round the country to try out some new bits which don't work.

Once the season starts work 830-midnight nearly every night, every free weekend working, with regular all nighters thrown in for good measure (and expected to carry on and work the next day)then every other weekend off for a race, work till at least 10PM every night, up at 5AM and if the highly skilled drivers stuff it into the barriers spend all night rebuilding it.

No overtime, no perks, treated like crap, zero social life and a danger of falling asleep at the wheel every time you get in the car to go home.

Almost makes 7/3/7/4 sound appealing


nil spares available....... ADD Refers.....

[Speedwing]

Sorry tim-ing you are WRONG!

4 on 4 off, ignore leave and you work 50% of the year i.e 365/2=184 ish days. Even if you then take your leave away (say 26 days) it give you 158 days and not the 143 you seem to dream up.

What sort of company do you work for?
Most give extra leave for working shifts. Even BA do!!!!!!

Have you ever considered changing jobs?

[tim-ing]

I apologise - I am soaking up the sun in Spain at the moment - I haven't had access to my files for a couple of weeks - I can be more specific when I return to UK but I have to answer the SHOUTED posting of speedsomething or other.

I admit, I have to correct the figures slightly in that public holidays/lieu days should be an additional 8 days.I should have highlighted this. I know all contracts are different and that even in the same company there are different arrangements for different shifts. I believe that in BA there are several versions of 4O4O being worked, some guys get 21 days leave while others get 26, some work a shortened day every so often so they work the same annual hours as 7473 while others only attend the required number of days to make the hours correct, which is the figure I'm accused of dreaming up. I've done the legwork I know what is happening on the airport officially and unofficially.

I am also aware that in an attempt to reduce airport road traffic, airport employers are being asked to examine shift rotas and the effect they have on transport demand. The figures I quoted, even though they were collected in the early 90's before BA sold some of it's business off, are being reviewed with an attempt to seek best practice and meet the airport road traffic criteria.

Don't assume the version of 4O4O that you work is the only one, like mobile phone tarrifs, they are produced to confuse and there are lots of them, I know of most at LHR and LGW, not all engineering jobs,(eg. security) last count across LHR/LGW was 43 , some are better than others.

Union officials at BA, believe that prior to the hiving off various sections of BA, catering and cargo engineering, engineering workshops, ground equipment maintenance the list continues to grow, that the number of shift patterns were the highest number in any single company. That makes comparison of terms of employment and payscales within the negoiating panels almost impossible to comprehend and agree on.

It is very easy for employers to present a case for a particular shift pattern by amplifying the plus points and leaving the union or the employee to discover the drawbacks after the deal is done.
They pinch a quarter of an hour here and there. Dead easy if your on TMG or salaried staff with KPI's. The hourly rate of a manager is usually less than a determined LAE.

Leeds University have done much research on shiftwork and the book they produced (sorry I haven't got it with me - not holiday reading) was in 1986 and costs about £75 but you may get one from the library. It studies shiftwork in detail and makes conclusions for and against each one. The figures make interesting reading. European rules introduced since the book was published devalue some of it's content.

It is also possible for employers (and unions or individuals) to buy Excel based spreadsheets that help them compare the bottom line - how much it costs to employ its staff per hour -"the big picture". It even builds in a contingency for sickness - the ability to cover it on overtime - they acknowledge some shift work induce sickness. It all goes into the spreadsheet. They know how much they pay you per hour before they start paying you overtime. If they can get you on a shift that fits their operating hours and at the same time increases the number of hours you work before earning overtime, that's the one they go for.

If as an individual you do not do the basic caculations of the criteria as they apply to you how do you
know what you earn per hour at work. What you earn ,compared with the guys, say at Virgin, the guys at BA, United, Canadian, Cathay Pacific etc shouldn't be compared on a p.a. basis its also how long you have to be there to take that money home.

It may be that YOU are working a poorly rewarding shift pattern, I know mine is as good as I can expect, so, I don't want another job. I know because I am sure, having checked it out. Have you or a "switched on" guy/top union man checked yours out? Or have you taken it on, thinking you're getting a good deal because you are only setting off for work 150ish times a year.

If you want a really good job - become a union/H&S rep.


[This message has been edited by tim-ing (edited 21 July 2000).]

[somefokker]

I worked 4 on 4 off for many years at BA LGW and HX, and I absolutely loved it. If you've got to come to work at all it might as well be for a longer day with fewer attendances throughout the year.
I now work for a Sham National Airline where the shift pattern is a 13 week roster of mostly earlies and lates with typically 4 8 hour lates followed by 1 day off followed by three 06:00 start 9 hour earlies followed by two off. They also throw in some twelve hour lates with an 02:30 finish, weekends in the hangar, and 11 nights spread through the 13 weeks. Now try and get your body clock adjusted to that roster. The only advantage is that nights are work to finish i.e. see them in, oils, daily, then bed - if they've got no snags.

F.U.C.K.E.D. (Failed Under Constant Kicking, Eventually Died)

[Flying Banana]

Interesting to note that the introduction of 7/3 7/4 shift at Gatwick was was not due to operational reasons but mainly due to the fact that the then Senior Manager (also responsible for setting up Taffs Garage) held the view that on 4on 4off staff had too much time off!

When a comment was made about 'this says a lot about our caring airline' at a shift brief, his reply was , quote ' I never said the airline cared about staff so don't bother whingeing about it, if you don't like it you know where the door is' unquote.

And considering the usual management position that 'the airline is a 24 hour operation' nice to see so many managers about at weekends and nights. And they wonder why staff morale is non existent! Bout time the suits were put on the same shifts as the line/hanger staff, watch shift patterns suddenly improve then.

[Clever Bloke]

Come on guys, I asked how tired you feel after your shift/what shift you work and hopefully someone from CHIRP would take note.

This has turned into a slagging match between a few people.

If this is the sort of attitude so called "professional people" have, it's little wonder engineers are regarded with such low esteem.

[greaseytech]

Just as another asside to this link, I, in my spare time (?) cycle competitavely in time trials. This summer (joke) I am working permenant nights. I was working Monday night,(24+ hours awake), off Tuesday and on Wednesday (again 24+ hours awake). Tonight I did 31.52 for a difficult 10 mile course in reasonable condidtons and my personal best for this course is just over 30 mins. I went off feeling confidendt, but at the 1/2 way point there was nothing left in my legs. One of my cyclng buddies, when I told him of my week, said that he did not know how I coped let alone raced. So to what piont did my working pattern have to do with my poor time? Does anyone else who reads this bullitin take part in any sport? Do you work shifts and have you noticed what effect shift patterns have on performance? I feel that this is relavent because, if your sporting performance is down then it stands to reason that your personal working performance may also be reduced. Your comments please.

[aeroguru]

Greaseytech,I admire your youthfull stamina!I think my circadean(?,spelling police please check)has stopped.Sometimes when I'm on shift it is as much as I can do to lift a mug of tea.And of course notice 47 excludes lifting any other type of mug.
Then,when I'm off shift, the dragon collars me for all the things she can.Now if I could sprint like you.

[greaseytech]

Aeroguru, if you knew me you would know that I am not that young, and I have a large expance of lard in the misriff regeon! That said, I still enjoy cycling. But this year, instead of progressively getting quicker, my performance has remained consistent, and I attrubute this to working permanent nights.
For this winter we are expected to work weekends with no extra shift pay. Somehow I don't think that that management will get their own way over this on the grounds of health and safety; there is a point where by you can end up working 9 days without a break. But how many of will walk in the shift does not suit? I will consider it, but it depends as to what is on offer.