Search & Rescue

[sarprof]

Well for those interested I heard some interesting things from an old associate in Canberra today.

It sounds like AeroRescues Dornier will be here by the end of the month so you guys in Darwin should have your new ship soon. However he didn't expect that it will be operationally tasked before December, still got lots of training and certification work to do and he mentioned something about determining a suitable SAR supply dropping solution.

Has any one heard of Oceanic SAR Resources? supposably a newly proposed startup operation chasing the current 4 aircraft AusSAR contract for the next 7 years. Talk of all new purpose built bases with all the mod cons, CASA CN235 aircraft for SAR work and a Challenger 600 for general logistics and fast deployment of management teams. He even mentioned that they had proposed several different deployment packages (even 1 with a quad bike) and operationl scenarios sounded very military like. But best of all he reckoned 100 plus jobs for pilots, SAR crew, LAMES etc (jeez maybe I can get a real job flying SAR again in this country).

For those interested can confirm that AAP down in Wollongong have not lost there current SAR contract, the current contract had reached its expirery date as originally signed off 3 years ago and at this time AusSAR have signed off on the additional year 1 extension untill the new operator is in place. So it looks like the red and yellow Chieftain will be flying for another year yet.

Should a guy with rear crew experience approach them for a short term job? (only been back here 5 weeks).

Lastly does anyone have any info on the new Customs contract. Have coastwatch been successfull or have Raytheon and ATR got the nod, either way more jobs for all up front, down the back in the working area and on the ground.

Well thats all from me, might go swat up and refresh ones memory on safe working practices around Chieftains.

SARPROF

Oh yeah I am only new on here, but jeez its a good thing, to one and all and especially the mods keep it up

[yowie]

Does the CEO go by the nickname FREDDO maybe?:E

[Dookie on Drums]

G'day sarprof,

I would steer well clear of the AAP but if you do decide to join the "rear crew" then it may interest you that they do not get paid to do this. It's all voluntary and in actual fact I believe that you have to pay them for the privilege!! :yuk:

Best of luck anyway and I have been hearing the same as you with regards to this new SAR operation. Interesting times!

:)

[Dashunder]

Sar Prof,

Oceanic Sar Resources, nothing to be found, seems a little bit extravagent to have a Challenger 600 running around with management team, especially when you consider the contract for four aircraft is only 17.5M a year. On the bright side, if it is true, its good to see money being spent in the right areas.

[Meeb]

On the bright side, if it is true, its good to see money being spent in the right areas.

Care to quantify that statement Dashunder?

If this "Oceanic SAR Resources" are indeed a contender for the contract it is a rather curious proposal. As one who has read the tender documents from end to end, the CASA CN235 would appear not to meet the requirements. The tender calls for an aircraft able to operate at a "minimum of FL250, possibly for extended periods of time", as the CN235 has a service ceiling of FL250 then it would be compromised and not meet the full requirements of the contract, a pretty major drawback!

The Do328 on the other hand meets all the requirements, and surpasses them in most areas. Indeed the tender would appear to be written for the 328... ;)

The CN235 is larger than the 328, something which would mean higher fuel burn etc (although I concede not by much), which is not necessary when an aircraft the size of the 328 is sufficient.

Aquisition cost must be looked at also. Not many pre owned CN325's around, whereas there are quite a few 328's, although they are becoming more popular with airlines.

The CN235 is essentially a military aircraft. Maybe no bad thing for a Search and Rescue role, but it is designed for low level supply type roles, just look at that back door! The D0328 is an airliner, with all the advantages that brings. High altitude, state of the art avionics suite etc, certainly far more appealing from the Pilots perspective, but also from a business point of view too.

My own view is the incumbent operator will be in a strong position as all the intial ground work has been done, and why have a fragmented service when the incumbant already is an established respected operator with government contracts already operated.

Hopefully we will soon find out the result, in the mean time it is interesting to hear reasoned input.... discuss.

[sarprof]

AMSA Tender

Hmm people are thinking and questioning am I really back in the land of OZ

quote: Meeb
________________________________________
If this "Oceanic SAR Resources" are indeed a contender for the contract it is a rather curious proposal. As one who has read the tender documents from end to end, the CASA CN235 would appear not to meet the requirements. The tender calls for an aircraft able to operate at a "minimum of FL250, possibly for extended periods of time", as the CN235 has a service ceiling of FL250 then it would be compromised and not meet the full requirements of the contract, a pretty major drawback!
________________________________________
Meeb: I would have thought that the fact that the CN235 is able to attain FL250 that it then meets that particular requirement of the tender.


quote: Meeb
________________________________________
Indeed the tender would appear to be written for the 328...
________________________________________
If that is the case then AMSA should be very careful under the Federal Finance Department Guidelines to Procurements that they have not placed themselves as such that there decisions can be questioned or taken as being biased towards a particular solution. Especially as these guidelines maintain that a level of transparency must be maintained under all scenarios


quote: Meeb
________________________________________
The CN235 is larger than the 328, something which would mean higher fuel burn etc (although I concede not by much), which is not necessary when an aircraft the size of the 328 is sufficient.
________________________________________
I have happily read through the technical spec for this tender and yes the 328 is smaller than the CN235 (although I concede not by much) however the spec does call for an airframe with future growth capability and to be capable of utilisation in as yet undetermined roles and operational procedures


quote: Meeb
________________________________________
Acquisition cost must be looked at also. Not many pre owned CN325's around, whereas there are quite a few 328's, although they are becoming more popular with airlines.
________________________________________
It is my understanding (after quizzing my associate in Canberra) that Oceanic SAR Resources have proposed that they will be utilizing brand new aircraft with full factory support. Yes this will be expensive but brand new airframes with full factory support that’s got to bring down the overall operational costs and increase the overall availability in the long term. In addition the entire fit out and integration is factory designed and proven, currently flying in several countries, and has been chosen by the US as the preferred aircraft for there medium range patrol aircraft (they have ordered 5 and are expecting delivery of the first airframe very shortly. Its big brother the C295 is slated as the next aircraft to be utilised by the Canadian Government for its far north (polar) SAR and patrol aircraft


quote: Meeb
________________________________________
The CN235 is essentially a military aircraft. Maybe no bad thing for a Search and Rescue role, but it is designed for low level supply type roles, just look at that back door! The D0328 is an airliner, with all the advantages that brings. High altitude, state of the art avionics suite etc, certainly far more appealing from the Pilots perspective, but also from a business point of view too.
________________________________________
When one does a little research you will find that the most SAR / Patrol organisations in the world utilise a military proven airframe or an airframe proven by military for similar roles. You mention “all the advantages” that an airliner brings well what about the advantages that come with in this case the CN235.

State of the art avionics are not limited to airliners in fact most technological improvement and advancement is driven at a military level, some time before, it is introduced to civilian ops. You mentioned that the DO328 meets and exceeds all RFT requirements hmm what about the ability to operate under NVG this is a stated requirement, The CN 235 I understand comes standard with NVG compatibility in the flight area, and can be made NVG in the rear ops area very easily with limited modification to the existing systems


quote: Meeb
________________________________________
My own view is the incumbent operator will be in a strong position as all the initial ground work has been done, and why have a fragmented service when the incumbent already is an established respected operator with government contracts already operated.
________________________________________
It is my understanding that the operator who succeeded in winning the Darwin contract is at this time unproven, as the DO328 is not actually here yet and that there systems integration, crewing, operational ability, etc as such is untested. I am also led to believe that there is also some question as to the drop capability of this aircraft. Yes it may have a hole in the floor but that’s not all that is required to make a successful dispatch of SAR equipment. Now low level ops and equipment dispatched out of a rear ramp, not much difficulty there to see which would have the likelihood of a high drop accuracy.


Meeb: you seem to favour an airliner due to its ability to loiter at high altitude, as a SAR operator (crewman) with 15 years experience working for many organisations civilian as well as military all over the southern hemisphere I can not remember a mission where we did not transit at a high altitude and then descend on arriving at the SAR scene to an effective operational altitude, dependant on the operational parameters. By this I mean we never operated above 5000’.

That said, the ability to loiter at those lower altitudes for an extended period is a very positive feature. From my research the CN235 is very capable in this area.
Further to this if you make your self familiar with the following document

National Search and Rescue Manual - Published by AMSA on behalf of the Australian National Search and Rescue Council
Version 0401 – 30 November 2004

You will find that it lists in section 4.6.15, and others, the effective heights in which particular types of searches should be carried out. Hmm all below 5000'

This document also details many other factors that can influence a search and would make for some very interesting reading for the uniformed.

It would appear that Oceanic SAR Resources proposal has had considerable thought put into it, I was told that they had indicated that they had considered several airframes including ATR 42, Dash 7, Dash 8 and others. They apparently chose the CN235 as it they believe it is the best factory supported, proven, fully integrated solution on the market. And they apparently also believed that there is less risk in utilising a proven product than attempting to convert another airliner to the role of SAR (been there done that and must agree) especially in only 1 or 4 airframes. Let me see if memory serves me right it took I think 4 years to get any real integrated functionality out of the current Coast Watch solution. Here we are 10 years down the track and I understand that that contract may be going to another provider so there goes all that money, time and expertise to design and fully integrate that solution over the last 10 years maybe they can sell the Dash8's, crewing and all the associated technology to PNG or Indonesia.

Finally my mate did say that he would contact the guy who did most of the leg work on the solution and arrange for him and I to meet, apparently he lives not far from me (small world). My mate did say that the main players all have backgrounds in SAR (2 of them aparently are currently AUSSar certified), emergency management, emergency services, corporate business, and aviation (flying and management), one of them apparently runs his own IT and Communications company and one of the others runs a successfull multiple engine, multiple aircraft GA business right here in OZ. It sounds like they all have runs on the board in there respective fields.


Cheers SarProf

PS. oh I forgot the Challenger 600 hmm nice aircraft I myself had a past employer who had one fitted with search radar and FLIR great ride very capable aircraft, I understand these guys intend to fit it with homing and tactical communications equipment and it would be utilised to transport relief crews on extended duration jobs in the OCEANIC area, apparently they offered it to AUSSar as an addition aircraft, outside of the Tender to transport the RCC co-ordination team to events as and when required. Now if I had to fly from Canberra to Broome etc, I know what I would want to travel in- 600?, Conquest? --- 600 wins every time….

PSS. Has anyone ever wondered seeing as OZ is responsible for all civil maritime SAR ops down to the Antartic coast and all civil aviation ops to the south pole what aircraft are they going to send. Maybe Oceanic SAR Resources should have gone for the C295 its fully ICE capable and certified for polar ops. Didn't AUSSAr charter a Global Challenger some time back to go look for some lost or stranded sailer?

[gaunty]

yowie

Ya beat me to it, prolly not too many still around who remember that little saga.:p

Gotta take your hat off to him the money may have been dodgy but he did have a good set of toys and a cracker Boys Own Annual setup.

Classic you can fool an awful lot of people for a loooong time, when they want to be fooled.:E

[Meeb]

sarprof, your detailed response is welcomed, but you make a few points which are questionable, has to be said!

When I mentioned the 328, you said the AMSA would have to be careful about favouring a particular operator, of course that is true, but why would favouring an aircraft type be a problem? Favouring a type is not favouring an operator! And it is you who brought up favouritism, not me!

I talk purely from a Pilots point of view, as you talk from your point of view of, is that back seating? As such, I can tell you the 328 is ahead of the CN235 in every technical respect! As for operational use, I have no idea of the suitability of the CN235, but I have checked the tech specs and it is not anywhere near the 328, sorry! As for the Challenger 600... well I doubt it really.

As for your comment on the FL250 aspect. It says minimum FL250, not maximum! Read it again maybe?

Also, it is the tender doc which talks about high altitude use, not me!

You seem to be very defensive regarding my posting.... why? Neither you or me will have any effect on the awarding of the contract, and as there is nothing public regarding this "Oceanic SAR Resources", I only posted to try to find out who they are... gaunty raises a real point!

sarprof, good luck with your job hunt.

[gaunty]

sarprof

Have you got anything better than Oceanic SAR Resources or perhaps an ACN as it doesn't show up in the ASIC database, at least that I can find, either as a company or reserved name.

If it was a real company it could be Oceanic SAR Resources Trading As XYZ PTY LTD or LTD.

Either way there should be some record of the "Oceanic" name on the database

If his name wasn't Fred, could it have been Robert?:}

Snap Instant Business Cards have a lot to answer for.:p

[sarprof]

Meeb - I stand corrected you are of course right and I should have mantained the view of Airframes and left operators out of the equatsion.

Yes you are correct, I am talking from the point of view of a "back seater" as you like to call us. To that point I was wondering if as a pilot you have done any SAR flying or participated in any small object location exercises?

Minimum / Maximum FL250 is FL250 (agree to disagree on interpretation)

After re-reading the post I can see now that it does appear a bit defensive, In actual fact I am just getting into the debate and taking up the stand on the side that I have some info about, If I new of some details of the other offers and solutions I might take up there point of view just as easily.

NSCA now that was an operation, well according to some mates that did time there, I unfortunately did not get the opportunity due to its early demise. From my mates I understand that it did have a great set of toys, some very good procedures and a very challenging training regime. Maybe thats why the guys where able to compete in the World SAR games and win many events many times over. Yes the man running the show may have been dodgy, but then again where the politicians of the time saints, as I see it we as a nation are only starting to approach that level of SAR capability again now. How long has it taken for the current elected management to realise that we come up short in that area compared to other nations.

As to the 600 I crewed on it and as a fast responce initial search aircraft and forward command transport it was perfect we where able to get on scene, establish actual conditions, and then plan the best operational procedure for the actual SAR responce aircraft and crews.

Meeb - with regards to neither you nor I having any effect on the outcome of the decision process, I disagree.

As citizens, we elect a management team for a large company called the Australain Federal Government. If I am unhappy with there decisions it is yours and my right to question that decision. The tools we use vary, it may be talking to our local member or requesting an enquiery, or even voting them out, If we all sat back and said nothing, nothing would ever change.

Gaunty - I believe from my associates comments that as the operation is a coming together of several companies that they have registered a new single entity I dont have any details though, maybe it is XYZ PTY LTD or LTD trading as Oceanic SAR Resources

Sarprof

[Dashunder]

Sar Prof

The end of August has come and gone and still no sign of the Dornier, has anyone heard when it is due, the pressure must be starting to build up in the Pearl hangar.

[bushy]

I seem to remember a company without the required aircraft, organisation or capability getting the SAR contract a long time ago.
There were some of their aircraft parked in Darwin for many years.
Our government sometimes does funny things.

I just hope they use an Australian company, but that is probably expecting too much.

[On eyre]

Bushy
I don't think that was SAR but Coastwatch and involved Aerocommanders from O/S. But you're right - government departments sometimes do act in strange ways and always slowly.

[gaunty]

bushy
Amman Aviation, a product of someones imagination who was working as a labourer on a building site in Canberra when the news of his succesful bid was announced.

A mint example of why the business in Oz got where it is.

Plan A was to round up the cheapest AC 690's not A or B models but the original 690 Mk1 and kit em out. Every used dealer in the US with one parked in their boneyard had a party that night.

There was a fascinating article by a journalist who was invited along for the ferry of one, suffice it to say he bailed at the first opportunity.

A Government fcukup of the most unbelievable magnitude. :rolleyes:

Can't knock the ambition, just Chauncey Gardner comes to town. ;)

[tinpis]

......and then the follow up 737-200 operating out of Singers thru Christmas Island.......:hmm: Captain Chainsaw of French A320 fame in command.:ugh:

things are positively boring these days gaunty.

[AerocatS2A]

Lastly does anyone have any info on the new Customs contract. Have coastwatch been successfull or have Raytheon and ATR got the nod,

It hasn't been announced yet. However, I'd stake my house and family on Coastwatch getting that one :).

By the way, Raytheon aren't the only competition.

[sarprof]

By the way, Raytheon aren't the only competition.

Yes it is a very impressive list that indicated an interest in the current customs RFT. Would be interesting to see who responded and what aircraft there solution was based on.. I did notice that one vendor had indicated a solution based on CASA 235's.



Unofficial Update on AeroRescues Dornier

Tracked down my mate today, he is pretty sure that the Dornier has flown all its OS proving flights and is now in the German paint shop gettings its very coastwatch looking paint scheme applied, According to his source it should be here and flying OZ proving flights by end of September. He was still pretty convinced that it would be many months before it was operationally certified and that crews where up to full strength.

Anyone from Pearl or AeroRescue want to comment or give us some first hand goss.

Sarprof

[jarjar]

Anyone from Pearl or AeroRescue want to comment or give us some first hand goss

Mmm... Sorry ,not allowed to help you with that one

[Dashunder]

All,

Check the site below out, the dornier looks quite nice in her new livery

Cheers

http://www.planepictures.net/netsearch4.cgi?srch=D-CIAB&srng=2&stype=reg