DEC - Disaster Entry Captain??

[MR8]

Since the A340 incident in JNB, we had 2 incidents close to disaster..

1. EGPWS in Nairobi. Some guys decided to intercept te LOC from the north at 7500 ft... while the hills go up to 8000-ish feet. Thank you modern technology!!

2. Near collision with jetblast fence in DXB. Again we were lucky, KWI flight, so not very heavy, excess of power, ...

Did someone notice these 2 incidents were both with DEC's at the wheel? Might be a wake up call for recruitment that hours isn't everything! IMHO, it's the best prove that a company with a diverse operation as EK nees to upgrade from within, get some EK experience in your right seat and then move over left.

Hopefully there won't be a 3 in the near future, we might run out of luck...

MR8

[Omark44]

Well, given that both incidents mentioned should have been picked up and challenged by a competent FO the question one is bound to ask is, "Are the current RHS F/Os actually experienced and qualified enough for Command?"

[330 Man]

Omark44,

Good observation. I have stated here many times that I am against the DEC program, but this last incident is not a DEC issue. I know the Capt personally on the last incident and he is a former TRE/Flight Standards Captain on the 737, TRI on the 767, FAA air safety award recipient, with over 18000 hours, almost all with a major airline in jets. He is no slouch. The F/O was a local, former UEA military. Contrary to what is posted on the big white board in CBC, they DID NOT use the numbers for takeoff on 12L while taking off on 12R. They ran the numbers for 12R and the Boeing computer told them 12R was sufficient. I also heard from one of the safety guys that they did not rotate early, and cleared the end of the runway at 50 feet. That is the required screen height for 2 engines.

This entire incident and investigation is a result of the captain filing an ASR. We all need to think about that. He is facing a deciplinary hearing as a result of telling on himself, because no one else told on him. Is that what the ASR program is here for? If we are facing action by filing an ASR we will all think twice before filing one. In the end the ASR is our most valuable tool for safety, but we should not face termination for filing one.

Hopefully when this case is over the company will come clean and allow all of us to learn from it. If it can happen to this experienced crew it can happen to anyone. If we can all be better pilots at the end of the day due to this last incident, then it was not all bad.

Regards,

330 Man

[Global Nomad]

A330.

Agree with you about the ASR filing, however it's a fact that there does need to be a safety investigation. One would hope that the non-jeopardy reporting system will operate as it should.

It would be inappropriate to refer to any particualr individual so I'm not going to, but this business of "he's a great pilot because he's done xyz" is a load of bollocks.

[donpizmeov]

Is it true re the deciplinary hearing? This seems to becoming a sign of the times at the moment.

Don

[Saltaire]

I have to admit I was more than surprised to see a sandwich board of the latest intelligence.......is the portal not sufficient? Desperate manouvre for sure; I thought I was back at flying school with the latest daily instructions.

Non-jeopardy is very important, but it's not a get out of jail free card either.....and I agree with Nomad, your past history means very little on the day, history proves this all too well.

[dunerider]

If they used the correct figures and cleared the barrier by the appropriate height then why the disciplinary or is there more to this? I also agree that all this hot air about how many hours and what other supposed ratings the DEC's have, has no relevance unless the guy is a test pilot from Boeing or he just came back from flying the space shuttle. I do, however, agree that an ASR is appropriate in relation to the barrier. A small percentage of the DEC's come from the top echelon of airlines.These are airlines that fly longhaul widebody aircraft and have done for many years.
The best performance from a DEC is when he learns to accept and operate the company's SOP's, even if he disagrees with them and when he can fit into the expat way of life. Then you may find they might have some acceptance amongst the first officers. However, amongst some they won't ever be accepted and I can sympathise with their reasoning as well.

[ratpoison]

MR8,

Probably a bean counter has come to the ragh##d conclusion that the risk of a hull loss is much cheaper than transition upgrades.

[MR8]

First of all.. was intended as a little BS topic, get the whiners out and have a laugh.. Bit of a devils advocate thing, turned out to atract more serious replies... To bad for that laugh though..

Few remarks though..

Omark - Not ALL F/O's at EK are very experienced and ready for command. A good bit of them are, no idea about the guys involved in these incidents. They might as well be 'learners' gaining experience on the job.. The Captain on the other hand SHOULD have the experience and knowledge... So your remark is a bit of nonsense..

330 Man - Although I agree with most of your previous postings, I think this one is a load of cr@p...
First of all, the experience and past of your guy has nothing to do with it. Remember Capt. Van Zanten, most senior guy at KLM in 1977, yet involved in the worst airline accident ever...
Second, if they had a normal rotation and cleared the runway end at 50 feet, why the ASR?
Third, if there was really an error in the Boeing computer, why isn't there a Notam published NOT to use this computer for T/O data anymore?
It looks to me that you want to defend an old mate who MIGHT have made a f*ck up. I don't say he did. I'm not pointing a finger at anyone, just curious..

MR8

PS: Think we can forget about the 'shoot all DEC's' discussion now.. Bummer ;-)

[411A]

Seems to me that the DEC program needs to be expanded, now that the true quality of (some) EK First officers has been revealed.

Many (most) I expect are sitting in the RHS, crying the blues that their perceived 'abilities' have been set aside, in favor of more experienced guys.

BooooHooo:{ :{

[Global Nomad]

MR8

Now I am laughing.

Good to see you on the thread 411a....your input is always welcome. Whether anyone believes it or not is strictly up to the individual.

As usual your comments will be construed by some to be inflammatory, however when read carefully it does have a ring of truth. I might add that your stated perception of abilities also applies to a number of DEC's.

That just makes Emirates the same as any other airline.

[uid0]

no person is immune to human errors.
Errors happen and experience (left or right seat) counts in how the pilot recognise and deal with those errors.

[Austin Holed]

Whilst I am not happy that EK have hired DECs, I do get down on my knees and thank the dear sweet lord above that 411A aint one of 'em.:mad:

[White Knight]

Percieved abilities - interesting comment 4iia. That could apply to F/O's (as you point out), 3 yr EK skippers (good blokes) and DEC's (mainly good blokes - but a couple of real half wits:mad: )
You have this fetish for EXPERIENCE as being the be all and end all in flying - you really are living in a backwards age old bean. Many of aviations nastiest accidents have been with the "highly experienced" skipper driving into the ground - or another aeroplane a la Tenerife.....


I think the reason that a lot of EK F/O's are p1ssed off is due to the bullsh1t that's raining down from above!! Plus the fact that we're bailing out A FEW - (minority) of these wonderful DEC's when they are being paid almost twice as much as we are!! Of course 4iia, along with flying your wonderful TriStar you also raised 15 kids on $10 per month with no hassle - God, you are my hero:yuk: :yuk:

By the way - the NBO GPWS (so I'm told) hard warning was NOT reacted to, pretty effing scary....................................

[Omark44]

You are quite wrong MR8, why do you think there are two crew? they should have both picked it up, I don't see any nonsense there.

[330 Man]

To all of you who have pointed out the obvious about time and experience, I agree. No amount of experience will protect you from making a mistake. What I was trying to say was that you do not reach that experience level by cutting corners, being a "cowboy" or a rogue pilot. In today's environment of CRM, most of the first officers will call you on the carpet for cutting corners.

MR8 I do remember Capt. Van Zanten, and yours is a very valid point. I am not however defending an old mate just for the hell of it. The white board in CBC is incorect and I was just pointing that out. The hearing was because of an ASR that the Captain filed, and I was just pointing that out. He filed the ASR because he knew he was very close to the barrier, he thought he had rotated early, and he thought he had missed the barrier by a few feet. In the hearing , the data showed that he had rotated at Vr, and cleared by 50 feet. Experience will not protect any of us from making mistakes, but none of us will get experience by cutting corners. That was my point. If he did make a F--K up it was taking off on a short runway when there is perfectly good long one right next door. I am sure that he will never do that again, no matter how loud the threat is on the atis about delays.
(I am sure that I am not the only one who hears the implied threat on the atis in DXB)

Global Nomad. Is "a load of bollocks" the same a bulls--t? I am after all from the country!

Lastly, if I had anything to do with 411a coming down from the ozone and venting his "bollocks" (right GN?) then I apologise to each and evey one of you. That is a curse that none of us deserve or need!

Regards,

330 Man

[Global Nomad]

A330 Man

Great to see that you can inject a sense of humour back into the thread. I don't think we should take anything too seriously on any thread other than an underlying message.

"Bulls..t" is a damn fine substitute and yes it is your fault for waking the troll up.

I wonder what trend there will be in runway utilisation over the next few weeks.

Is the poor chap having a disciplinary (corrected your spelling Don) hearing or is the incident just being investigated?

[donpizmeov]

Thanks GN. As that wise man once said...If I had of worked harder at school I could have got a real job.

Don

[Cerberus]

A330 Man, I do not want to make personal attacks but lets look at your 3 quotes in general terms:

Q1. 'he is a former TRE/Flight Standards Captain on the 737, TRI on the 767, FAA air safety award recipient, with over 18000 hours, almost all with a major airline in jets. He is no slouch.'

A1. Wrong, someone with that profile might be a slouch! Experience isn't about how long you have been doing it or how many hours you have, it is about what you have fitted into those hours, how relevant it is, what you have learnt and how you apply it in the future! Someone with the above profile might be good, might have been good and might never have been any good at all.

Having all those awards and hours doesn't amount to anything unless you use them wisely. Clearly, the Nairobi Captain didn't have the experience to recognise a massive mountain between himself and the localiser. Maybe it might have been different if he had been in his environment and inside his comfort zone or sat in the right seat for a while and learnt about his new environment and gained some relevant experience.

Q2. 'The F/O was a local, former UEA military.'

A2. Ergo, the first officer was probably quite inexperienced! He might be good, he might not. In the UK in the 80's about 8 US Military exchange pilots were killed by the RAF who assumed they were experienced and sent them off on low-level missions in the hills. They were experienced but their experience related to the clear skies of Arizona (bit like 411a) in a nice radar controlled box, not 500' cloudbase / 5km viz in the UK's winter. I think you can read across from the US military to the UAE and make your own conclusions.

What did the Brits do? They gave them a UK orientation course with experienced IPs until they had the clues in their bag. We could do the same with some DECs, the orientation could be carried out in the right hand seat for a while recognising their previous experience but letting them learn about their new environment and gain relevant experience

Q3. 'What I was trying to say was that you do not reach that experience level by cutting corners, being a "cowboy" or a rogue pilot.'

A3. No you can just keep your head down and wend through the system. Doesn't mean you are good but it does mean you have been around a long time. I know lots of pilots that have got old without picking up much experience or many clues along the way. Is an 18,000 hour pilot better than a 12,000 hour one? Maybe but probably not more likely just older and eventually for most of us on the slippery slope down. We have some former Captains that are permanent EK F/Os cos they didn't meet our standard.

So what to take out of all my blustering? Well when we employ DECs they should have relevant experience. A rating in one of our aircraft types would be a good starting point. Experience of the airfields to which we operate should be another. If they don't have that they should sit in the right hand seat and gain it. As an ex-pat airline you have the added burden as a Captain of flying with all sorts of guys that have very different experience, knowledge and ability bases. The best way to cope is by having been exposed to that environment before stepping across to the left seat.

1. Previous Command - DEC has had it, most EK F/Os have too.
2. Meets EK's Command Ability Standard - DEC maybe, you can check out F/Os to see.
3. Relevant Operating Environment - DEC maybe, EK F/O has for sure.
4. Used to SOPs - DEC no / EK F/O definitely.
5. Time on type - DECs maybe / EK F/O for sure.
6. Relevant Experience- DEC maybe / EK F/O definitely

There seem to be a hell of a lot of maybe's surrounding DECs, if the meet them all it is not unreasonable to take them. If not, we should look within at guys that of whom we have more knowledge. That way we will make a better and informed decision. Even Transition/Upgrades might make sense. A guy within the company has fewer things to learn than a DEC going to a new Company, Country, Operating Environment, type etc.

It is a big ask to be a DEC, the humility to recognise that you are not a god, just a man starting a new job is a good start. (Unlike so I am told one of our ME DECs) To set the same standards you held with your previous operator whilst learning new SOPs etc is hard. That ask gets even bigger if you are trying to learn about a new jet and new operating environment at the same time. Lets get DECs with relevant experience or promote the experienced and capable guys from within.

Speaking of bollocks; what's the one compliment never heard in the bedroom? 'Nice scrotum!'

Off to the physio to get my typing finger renewed.


Cerberus:zzz:

[MTOW]

DECs have happened before in EK, and they’ll happen again. I think few would disagree that the vast majority of the current crop are a cut well above many of the earlier lot.

Most of the last lot are long gone, some of them with a little encouragement from the very people who employed them. (Who could forget the one who shared a first name with a famous German general who also lived for a while in a desert?) A “Mustang” pilot if ever there was one.

Were the EK FOs unhappy campers when the last lot arrived? You betcha. (And did management care?) See here (http://www.pprune.org/go.php?go=/pub/fun/caravan.html) for the FOs reactions at the time, and those bemoaning the alleged lack of experience in some of the current DECs, take a look towards the end of the story Look for For it is written that many… …will cometh … from the tribe of Parker bin Pehn.”What strikes me most about the story is that it could have been written last week.

[Global Nomad]

Don

Gee you're a good bloke, you didn't even rise to the bait. I spotted your under the radar jab at A330 and thought I might get a rise out of you but failed dismally. You probably give credit for your good landings (if it's plural) to the other guy and take the ugly one.

Cerberus

Good post, but the way things work here it will not make any difference. Besides, 411a told me that we need DEC's so it must be true.

MTOW

I'm curious but your link doesn't work...

On the thread....I know there is a lot of terrain around Nairobi, but a normal descent profile takes you nowhere near terra firma. I assume he was coming from Entebee. What gives? Speed, ROD, high drag approaches or a combination?

[Bird On]

For decades past and, hopefully for Emirates F/Os, for many years to come, there have been a heap of well renowned airlines who have and continue to hire DECs without all or in some cases even any of Cerberus's list of relevent experience.

And their doing just fine, thankyou.

Stop grasping at pathetic, tenuous straws to try and justify the great and noble cause of upgrades.

As it should, Emirates has done and will do dozens and dozens of upgrades so stop whining.

If there any F/Os who as WK puts it : are p1ssed off is due to the bullsh1t that's raining down from above!! Plus the fact that we're bailing out A FEW - (minority) of these wonderful DEC's when they are being paid almost twice as much as we are!! ........then just resign, and go get your precious upgrade somewhere else leaving the position for someone who will appreciate it.

Big Hug now.

[sandpit]

MTOW, doubt there are many readers here that were around when our general friend arrived!

(PS and he wasn't the worst!!)

[MTOW]

No Sandpit, I'll agree der Kapitan wasn't the worst, (but I also don't think he'd ever sat on the left dide of the pedestal when airborne in his life before coming to EK - I'd even go so far as to say I think he'd only ever sat side saddle).

The link works for me, GlobalNomad, but since it doesn't for you, try this URL: http://www.pprune.org/go.php?go=/pub/fun/caravan.html The original Yasser Whateverusay might be long gone, but I suspect many would say the first successful cloning must have been done many years ago.

[Global Nomad]

Ahh ye olde scrolls!

Many a cameeler doth paste this way and not noeth the true origins of these ancient scrolls.

A true piece of great literature.

[330 Man]

I realized that it had been a year since reading this "great piece of literature". ( As a lowly effoh I found that some of the words were too big).

It is time to translate the second scroll to find out the outcome of this great history! The future of cameelers all are in the balance.

330 man

[dicksynormous]

When white knight has finished with his chips could i have them to chock my aeroplane please.

There used to be a proceedure to intc the nbi loc on a heading of 105 from gg and descend to 7500. I believe it is still offered at pilots discretion when radar is on, or on request. ie conditions permit.

If you leave the gg at platform and descend there is no big hill, only if you descend before the beacon, from the west. From the north a shortcut is not a track to high gnd. If you are visual and terrain isnt a factor then the boeing qrh says the warning may be considered a nuisance. It would be interesting to find out the config and actual routing.and the wx.

See white knight i have been abroad but i wouldnt give up my left seat to do it. Lifes choices mate.More to life than a few russian tarts in an arab pub. Theres PPrune for one.;)

[SecurID]

Russian tarts? I wish! they're all Chinkies now... :(

[Global Nomad]

Agreed A330.

It's time for a sequel.

If someone can write 5 books and make a few hundred million quid for a fantasy tale, I'm sure the original author of the scrolls can continue the saga for there's no lack of material.

I just want to know if 411a will make a cameo appearance?

[MTOW]

Just trolled through the scroll for the first time in a long time, and have come to the conclusion that the Pprune edition has to be an abridged version of the original. I can distinctly remember reading the scroll not long after its “discovery” in Knoteatinghamm not long after I first arrived here and there was a passage in it about how onions were the one vegetable that was definitely not allowed to be grown in Knoteatinghamm, as onions “brought tears to the Cherif’s eyes”. (Anyone who’s lived in Knoteatinghamm long enough to remember Yasser Whateverusay and his minions’ big panic when they heard that the Ozmates had imported an “onion” into Knoteatinghamm will be able to decode that passage quite easily.) I don’t know why the onion comment was dropped from the version that made it onto Pprune. (I know that the author just about did a back flip on learning that someone had sent it on to Danny.) Maybe there’s someone out there with an original copy who could share the onion bit with us?

If a new scroll is discovered and translated, maybe they should call it “The more things change, the more they stay the same”, for there’s an awful lot in the original that as current today as it was when it was written, and I suspect that the Cameleers over in Qatar and maybe Abu Dhabi would find it even more familiar than the Knoteatinghamm Cameleers would.

I had dinner with a mate last night and after a couple of wines, (a very dangerous time to be suggesting anything) we both thought it would be really good if someone came up with a glossary of terms and names. I know the fabled doubleparkoutsidethesharwmashoppe is certainly still there, and the conch shells, while they might have gotten smaller, are certainly thicker on the sand than ever. The Phorwhealdryves are even more numerous, as well as bigger and scarier today than they were then, and they still flash their eyes angrily as they attempt to secure their position at the head of any queue.

Edited to add the the "goleposts" are also still certainly "...on the backs of fast moving camels."

[SecurID]

Anagram time....

Fed on my Hummer, die fast!!!

(My Mohamed's different)

(Well, someone's got to do strange things at 0115hrs when you can't sleep 'cos the bloody schedules screw your internal clock!)

[tournesol]

First of all I don't work for EK. I can understand the feelings of the F/Os and Capts. flying for EK about DEC.
I have been on the receiving end when I was an FO, but that is now history in another era.
When a company is expending as rapidly as the EK and does not have enough experincied FOs ready for cammand, what is the most logical thing to do ? Employ direct entry capts.
The Co. ( I hope) employs capts with a proven record, capable and well experienced. These guys should bring experience to the company.
On the other hand some of the FOs who speak against the DEC programme, should ask themselves this "other than some minor differences in SOPs and phraseology, does EK fly any different than everybody else? I dont think so. And the same FOs for the most part, the fist time they got a chance to handle a big jet was with EK. At this rate expansion, they will get their chance when the time comes. If that never happens, well c'est la vie.

First of all I don\'t work for EK. I can understand the feelings of the F/Os and Capts. flying for EK about DEC.
I have been on the receiving end when I was an FO, but that is now history in another era.
When a company is expending as rapidly as the EK and does not have enough experincied FOs ready for cammand, what is the most logical thing to do ? Employ direct entry capts.
The Co. ( I hope) employs capts with a proven record, capable and well experienced. These guys should bring experience to the company.
On the other hand some of the FOs who speak against the DEC programme, should ask themselves this "other than some minor differences in SOPs and phraseology, does EK fly any different than everybody else? I dont think so. And the same FOs for the most part, the first time they got a chance to handle a big jet was with EK. At this rate expansion, they will get their chance when the time comes. If that never happens, well c\'est la vie.

[SecurID]

When a company is expending as rapidly as the EK and does not have enough experincied FOs ready for cammand, what is the most logical thing to do ? Employ direct entry capts.

The most logical thing? That, Sir, IMHO, is to trawl completely down the list of F/Os and promote everyone who is able to do the job first before recruiting one DEC into the fold.

Just because a guy has 10,000 hours vs. someone who has 7,000hrs, does that make him more suitable? That argument has been done to death elsewhere. Quite frankly, At 9,500hrs, I know no more than I did at 6,000hrs, with the exception that I am often humbled by the F/Os superior knowledge. As a four year Captain here in EK, I find it amazing that I still don't have the qualities to be a DEC should I resign and rejoin! Don't laugh, some F/Os have considered it!

EK made a mistake in recruiting DECs. All it achieved was to allow sufficient expansion rates at the expense of reducing crew morale even further. The DECs were only recruited as a last minute effort to crew the rather sudden appearance of the A340-300s. We were told, by our EVP, that no current F/O would be disadvantaged by the recruitment of DECs and that no Captain would be disadvantaged either. Wrong in both cases. These 'expert' pilost were brought in at higher rates than year one Captains, thus disadvantaging immediately those that had just bee promoted and every F/O with the required hours for promotion (6,000) has also been disadvantaged.

Many of you forget that, at EK, we have had four (??) changes to the upgrade and promotion policy in as many years and I could not quote the current policy, especially the fast track, but suffice to say that the F/Os that I fly with are all totally capable and able operators, they just haven't done three years here yet. Monsieur, That is not 'C'est la vie' that is just pure unfair.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Its all about money......
What about the F/os that exceed the Dec requirement ....
The f/os promised accelerated commands , no more on Airbus but plenty on Boeing............
And quite a few 3 year F/os coming up on airbus with no planes to fly.
The only way to get a transition corse is to resign and come back and for a few F/os this is the better option...............

:D

[Global Nomad]

Turnarsol

Either this is a wind up or you simply have no idea.

First of all get your facts straight.

does not have enough experincied FOs ready for cammand

Emirates does have enough experienced FO's to feed most, if not all of the command requirement. The requirement to spend 3 years as an FO and other policy is what restricts commands, not the FO's ability.

If the company screened the seniority list and had no FO's "capable" of command, then hire who you want.

Scooter

What about the FO's that exceed the DEC requirement or the FO's that were allegedly promised an accelerated command?

Ever considered how the 3 year FO feels about those pilots? No? I guessed as much.

You're complaining about DEC's, yet in the same breath you are trying to justify a secular groups promotion ahead of others. Good luck.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

if there was transition upgrades there would not be any problems , without them many will be disadvataged no matter what the experience .
I have already secured a new job so this is my last xmas in Dubai Goodbye.

[Global Nomad]

As a DEC with another company?

[Bird On]

I see.......so by the time 6000 hours rolls over some of the more arrogant and conceited amongst us truly have nothing else to learn about flying. Experienced it all and several times over to, no doubt.

To actually think you can learn no more and know everything by xxxx hours only proves that you still have a lot to learn.

Aviation insurance actuaries are very good and accurate at determining risk levels and thresholds and thereby setting the premiums. Emirates is I daresay "guided" accordingly.

In many of the Flag- Carriers around the world F/Os may have to wait 10 plus years for a turboprop or a narrow body jet Command and here at Emirates guys are pouting and bitching like 10 year old girls because they have to wait 3 years for a modern wide-body jet upgrade in a pretty darn good airline. Geeezzzz. :rolleyes: :yuk:

[BigGeordie]

Many of the flag carriers around the world have an F/O pay scale which makes it viable to wait 10 years for a command. For an F/O with a family at Emirates the only way to make ends meet is to get a Captain's wage as quickly as possible. How many flag carriers have DECs?

[Bird On]

......... and conversely and more to the point just how many Expat. airlines are there that will treat you pretty well as an F/O and then give you a B777 or A330 upgrade in just 3 years, no strings attached.

If they are out there :- then with all due respect why are you here.

[Cerberus]

Bird,

'Aviation insurance actuaries are very good and accurate at determining risk levels and thresholds and thereby setting the premiums. Emirates is I daresay "guided" accordingly'

The old insurance chestnut. When Gulf Air had their last accident; Emirates increased the hours for command to 9,000 with people blahring about insurance costs. They changed it to 6,000 2 days later after MF found out the true implications at the pilots meeting. Gulf Air did not increase their hours!

If you check out the stats from the UK database it shows:

1. In over 50% of accidents the Commander had >12,000hrs.
2. In over 60% of accidents the commander had <1250 on type.

So; it seems the insurance angle is 'a pile of pants!' cos anyone carrying out a sound risk analysis can see that taking DECs with over 10,000 hrs but few on type is a recipe for disaster.:ok:

Bird don't try to insult our intelligence, it has nothing to do with safety; only money. Those at the top would have been the first to dive for cover had one of the DEC incidents turned out less favourably saying 'how could anyone have seen that coming?'

Cerberus

[Quod Boy]

Gents,

The holes in the cheese are lining up.rather rapidly IMHO.

Irrespective of all "financial" excuses "cost neutral etc etc" and other such mis information,the DEC programme has produced 2 very near disasters in recent months.

If we must take DECs would it not be better to evaluate and determine their abilities,over rather more than 6 sims and 20 LT sectors?Surely full exposure to our network and the way we operate would be beneficial?It might have prevented the latest events.

The product we have in many cases,but not all, is not the product originally asked for,and meanwhile many of our FOs watch in amazement whilst their transition UG eludes them.

What a decision.

QB

[Global Nomad]

Bird On

You can have your fishing line back, minus the bait.

[Bird On]

Unfortunately Cerberus,
your supposed stats have just proven, at least according to your interpretation, that transition upgrades in Emirates would be just far to risky as thats where the risk is weighted (60%).

And what a spin, so what if 50 % of Commanders had more than 12000 hours then obviously the other 50% had less than 12000 hours that means in 100% of accidents there was a commander....meaningless but good try.

I'd say based on your logic that there was probably less than 1% of pilots with more than 20,000 hours involved in accidents therefore Emirates should only employ pilots with more than 20,000 hours.

Non-specific, selective, generic, limited, out of context statistics are, well, an insult to your notable intelligence.

Besides, it can't be that much cheaper to hire DECs. Their monthly starting salary is significantly higher than a 1st year upgrade's amounting to tens of 1000s of Dhs in the first year alone that the DEC is costing over an upgrade. Emirates has its own training infrastructure with no third party costs. The new F/O has a lower cost base than the upgade F/O. Non revenue time of the upgrader is well less than a month etc etc.........
................... its not all black and white and there is always a lot more to it than we can figure on the surface.

Why are some F/Os and Skippers so paranoid about everything? Lack of experience I guess! :D :)

[Quod Boy]

Bird On-What a load of non sense.

I did a transistion UG along with several others,with no problems encountered by any of the candidates.

No one to the best of my knowledge has been a "risky" upgrade for EK.Further none are/were paranoid.

Cereberus was spot on in his post.

Bottom line is a "paranoid" FO who is known to EK(3 yrs lets say,6 PPCs etc) with even less time than your esteemed self is a considered and known risk.

A DEC irrespective of PIC/TT is UNKNOWN and recent events demonstrate just that.

Now that is risky,IMHO of course.

Off to the bar.QB

:cool:

[White Knight]

Bird On - I have far more than 6000 hrs!! I've also flown many different types in many different environments - YET I still learn. Something we should all be doing 'til the day we retire.. So you can stick your arrogant and conceited comments right up your arse:mad: :mad:


By the way - maybe a 10 year wait in Oz for a turboprop command, but where else????
:confused: :confused:

[SecurID]

Does a 10,000hr pilot know more than a 6,000hr pilot? Does a 7,000hr pilot have less experience than a 9,000hr pilot? Do I know more more now than5 years ago,after 3,500hrs in the left seat?

For Gawd's sake, all of you, I am merely pointing out the problems, not suporting them!!!!

[Cerberus]

So Bird you have surrendered to my point that the insurance actuary statistic angle is 'a pile of pants', I knew I could get you to take that bite. What logic actually says is that a well trained pilot with relevant experience is less of a danger than either a poorly trained one or one with inappropriate experience.

Two typical profiles we see are:

10,000 hours, 6,000jet, 4,000 command short-haul, 0 on type = Qualified DEC
9,000 hours, 5,000jet, 2,000 command short-haul, 2000 on type = Unqualified for Command EK F/O

So 'a non-specific, selective, generic, limited statistic' might be that having 10,000hrs makes a pilot 1,000 "better" than one with 9,000hr. Or that, to otherwise very similarly qualified guys, an extra 2,000 hrs of command is worth more than 2,000 hours on type in the actual operational environment. A well trained pilot with a good decision making model and practice in making those decisons should fare well in any environment. A badly trained pilot with 50,000hrs is still a liability!

So how does all this mumbo jumbo help? It is easier to identify how capable and safe a pilot is by monitoring their performance over a longer period of time in the environment in which they will operate. No point in asking us coz we are all legends in our own lunchtimes. Traditionally this has been done by watching how they develop in the right hand seat. Giving a command to any pilot is a risk. That risk increases if you know less about them.

I am not against DECs to meet a requirement to continue the growth of Emirates. I am against taking inappropriately qualified DECs or taking DECs ahead of 'suitably qualified' F/Os. For the life of me I cannot understand why we are taking none type rated shorthaul guys as DECs when we have guys that were in just about the same position 3 years ago but have since tried to develop their career further by flying for EK. EK would do better by getting rid of arbitary rules and by assessing their staff on merit. Then again, that would require able operational managers with the ability to make sound decisions and self confidence. To do that you have to have relevant experience and with some individuals near the top of the flt ops tree, I fear that may not be the case.

Cerberus

[turtleneck]

what about the jnb incident, the 9" zrh-float, the stealth penetration of mastricht airspace??
made by genuine pure breed ek captains.
come on guys. **** can happen to anyone, even to 3+ year old ek fo's.
let's try to avoid these incidents before pointing fingers.
the really safe pros go for the earlier and avoid the latter.

safe flights
ttn

[Trashed Aviator]

Funny thing is there will not be many f/os left in EK next year. 100s are leaving it is really quite incredible what has happened to a potentially great airline....
Where r they going to park all those 777s the 330 guys are not allowed to fly.
Shame really.
Lots of Decs to come next year but for every 1 that comes about 2 F/Os will leave , good effort !

Figures from the latest poll put out to F/Os only , i would imagine many Captains are on the move also ............


:ok:

[Cerberus]

Trashed,

What poll?!:sad:

Cerberus

[SecurID]

Ditto Cerberus,

Trashed, come on. What Poll???? The suspense is killing me...

[Marcellus Wallace]

Personally I believe most of the incidents could have been avoided had the crew of the day recognised the Threats and discussed how they would have Managed them.

Most of the time we waste energy on long briefings which don't really discuss the Threats faced for the particular Approach and Landing or Takeoff.

EBB-NBO
There's a co-notam with regard to avoiding high sink rates so as NOT to trigger the EGPWS. Most people don't understand that the EGPWS works like the TCAS - forecasting the closure rate based on ROD/ROC or Gnd speed.

Crew can discuss this and place a speed restriction (Green dot or Flaps up Maneuver) and altitude restriction at a point prior to the LOC intercept when approaching from the West.

DXB 12R

Discussion of the threat facing the crew would mean that both pilots are more conscious of the prevailing runway length and what the best way of managing it would be.

There's already a company write-up to this effect advising that Flap 20 or a Conf 3/2 would result. Any other flap setting or config would ring alarm bells.


Practised by DEC or non DEC would have yielded the same outcome - no EGPWS warning and also less dramatic takeoff.

Just my 2 sen worth.

[tic]

Turtleneck
Great reply. Come on, fact is EK is expanding faster than the pilots they have. It's much cheaper to hire a type-rated pilot, whether F/O or DEC. No, it's not fair to Guys, that have shown loyalty, but they have to crew the aircraft. Surely, it's the same for any proper airline. It's the usual story, be there at the right time. I don't fly for EK, but if I applied and was offered a DEC, I would take it, I think. The F/O position wouldn't even enter the equation, even though, I feel sorry for your circumstances. It's not fair, but that is the way it goes.

[MR8]

tic,

Agree with what you're saying. In case of a rapid expansion, sometimes a company NEEDS to hire type-rated DEC's.

At EK however, no such thing is happening. The expansion is big, but nothing that would need the help of DEC's. Last years DEC's for the sudden A343's might have been needed, but then again, most of them were not type rated and had to do a long transition course. Know of at least 2 B777 rated guys who had to join the A330 fleet while only a few weeks after, some not rated B777 guys were trained on a long transition. Know of a guy who never flew passengers or glass cockpit (the guy only flew cargo DC8 and 747 Classic.. hell, he even never operated in a 2-men flightdeck!!!!!! ) So please someone tell me what these guys are doing here???

MR8

[LHR Rain]

Taking our jobs! You have not figured that one out yet?

[411A]

Sadly for you, LHR Rain, you ain't figured it out yet.

Clearly, EK management have had enough of pig-headed co-pilots, who truly believe that they belong in the LHS, yet display no maturity or ability to reinforce the fact.
The guys who jump up and down the most about being denied the LHS are usually the ones least able to cope with the job, once there.

Live and learn, eh?:p

[Global Nomad]

411A

I can assure you, there are no pig-headed co-pilots in Emirates.

....sure hope LHR Rain isn't from the UAE or any other Islamic country....

[boeingdream787]

You for one Global Nomad seem to lead this elite group of "Pig Headed Co-Pilots"everywhere.Take a break bubba.Or it'll show in your next medical...!!;)

[PITA]

Now Now...Let's all play nice nice boys.

And please remember to take your meds

[LHR Rain]

411A,

SO I am pig headed. Okay but what makes you so arrogrant that you think that you can scab my senority without knowing how cabable I am in the RHS or even the LHS. The main reason for a senority list is so arseh0#@% like you can't jump over anyone. Do you really think that there are that many unqualified co-pilots at EK? If so you are the pork headed one who probably is at a low rent airline just looking for something better and you think that EK offers it. Get real, onward pork!

[RINGAdingding]

OOOOF!! LHR thats prime 411 bait if i ever saw it!:D

[411A]

Gosh, LHR Rain, you do indeed seem to have your knickers in a twist, over the DEC issue.
I mentioned on this forum over three years ago to the various co-pilots at EK that they were foolish to 'assume' that EK would follow any sort of senority list, in promoting or hiring a pilot, no matter what the position, and especially for first officers.

Just so you know...airlines in the middle east, and indeed EK is positively NO exception, will lie to you at every turn, and the ONLY positive way to get around the promotion issue, is to be hired directly into the position, to which you aspire.
IE: wanna be a Captain...get hired as one.
Full stop.
This has been the only way to assure yourself that the outcome is as you expect.
Always has been, always will be, in the middle east.
How do I know?
Been working in/around the middle east for over thirty years, collecting the big(er) bucks, always as a DEC...period.
Now, to those who 'thought' that EK was an honorable company, and will 'do the right thing' with regards to upgrades...welcome to the real world my friend,you have learned a valuable lesson, for sure.
Now, if I was running EK, I personally would offer upgrades to everyone that deserved, and was qualified for same, on a merit basis, ignoring senority.
Set a policy, and stick with it.
But, being as I don't run EK, you are left with those managers that will do as they please...middle eastern style.
Get used to it.
It ain't likely to change anytime soon.
Not in your lifetime, anyway.:uhoh:

[74world]

411A,

Could not agree more with your post, well done!!!!

I guess it will be a chock for the "dreamers" in the Middle East to read what you wrote but it is true.....

EK, like many others can not be trusted.


:E

[Bird On]

411A ,

yet another erudite posting. You can only try.:ok:

[Payscale]

Oiii...Trashed Aviator....we are still holding our breath!
How do you know 100's of FOs are leaving next year? Where would they go?

:hmm: Payscale

[Desert Nomad]

Hey, don't balme the DECs too much here. They were after all just other guys out there looking for another job. EK recruited them and now they are here. Those that make no effort to blend into the culture (of complete negativity) are a problem but surely there must be a few that have managed to fit in and make life better for all.

The management is to blame for getting the airline into this situation of low morale. Perhaps if you accepted as many of the DECs as possible into the group life would be better. After all they were only seeking new employment.

[Omark44]

Just a couple of points.
1.
Direct entry commands have been around for at least the last forty years, to my knowledge. Within expanding airlines the need to get the show on the road at minimum cost and training time and without diluting experience levels too much is paramount. An airline can only afford to have a small percentage of its captains as new captains. In stable, non or slowly expanding airlines this is achieved by the normal attrition process of retirement and resignations. New captains naturally require more supervision and monitoring whilst they absorb the transition from LHS to RHS and there is only a set amount of time and resources available for this. To ensure that these resources are not overstretched DECs are employed in the hope that once on line they can be left to get on with the job, fall back on their previous experience when required and leave available training resources to concentrate on turning out a good command product from suitably qualified F/Os.
2.
The requirements for promotion to command, (let us not forget, it is a promotion, not a God given right), are, usually:
Correct licence, sufficient appropriate hours and suitability!.
Suitability comprises a whole tranche of things. Attitude, maturity, command ability, assertivness, CRM, company loyalty, the ability to be a company ambassador down route at all times but particularly when things go seriously wrong, the ability to command a crew, a degree of commercial awareness and the ability to know when to differentiate between operational, safety and commercial requirements and allocate priorities accordingly, the ability to have and retain the appropriate respect from all around you, etc. etc. The list is quite long and whilst many can satisfy the licence and appropriate hours requirements many fall down on suitability, as measured by your current employer, not your last one.
I have seen potential captains with excellent quality experience come unstuck not in the simulator but during line training when the suitability factor comes into the equation big time.

Reading some of the posts on this thread I am bound to wonder if one or two people are so wound up in seniority issues that they have lost sight of the big picture.

[donpizmeov]

omark 44,

The EK Fo group is made up of a great bunch of professional fellas. What you see vented here is frustration of being lied to and mistreated.

FOs joining now know what the present state of play is, however those that joined over 2yrs ago have had the rug well and truely ripped from under them. They have even witnessed their boss tell them they will not be disadvantaged, when it was obvious to all, and questioned otherwise. When you adversely effect someones, and their families livelihood, they tend to become a little disgruntled. And this is exactly what is happening.

The DECs are just applying for and getting a job. Just like anyone else in the industry. And people joining as FOs now know the score, and make their decisions accordingly. On a whole I think most have no problem with the DECs, but they do have a problem with the short sighted management style that has caused the present problems.

So there is no need to worry. I am sure that they well and truely see the big picture, hence the concern they vent on this forum. They have taken two big body blows, one the DECs, and the other the stopping of transition upgrades. One of these is a hinderence, but both are career stopping.

Don

[fullforward]

I´ve tried to send you a PM, but it seems that your mailbox is full.

[Quod Boy]

No axe with the individuals,the policy was flawed and doomed from the start.

A great deal of bad feeling because in many cases(not all) the wrong people with the wrong experience hired.

An unmitigated and avoidable personnel disaster.Finally,now acknowledged by the brass hats.Time will tell.

Off to the bar.QB