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Cruis'in FL410
11th Aug 2005, 00:46
Overheard on landing in MEL last night around nine-ish on SMC;

Emirates A340: "Melb Ground, just updating you on our delay. We now have ice built up on both wings! We have asked our ground handlers, and other source to no avail. Are you aware of any Airport de-icing ground services we could contact?"

Melb SMC: " Ahhh no. We aren't aware of any Airport Services for de-icing, I think individual airlines provide their own de-icing services!"

Emirates A340: "Well if we can't contact any services, our delay will extend as long as it takes for the ice to melt!"

Does anyone know if they were able to get any equipment? Or were they delayed until the ice melted?

In any case, I would have thought they would have some company ops to provide for this situation. What about a friendly call to QF, or are relations between the two strained. I'm sure Emirates would return the favour, if QF were stuck with ice in Dubai!

blueloo
11th Aug 2005, 00:50
There is no de-icing equipment in Melbourne Full Stop. QF has the problem on its 737-800s all the time in Winter due to Cold soaked fuel. The solution (as they dont have de-icing gear) is to add warmer fuel and move it through the tanks. If Fuel cant be added, then they have to wait for it to melt.

Macrohard
11th Aug 2005, 01:06
I think you will find Virgin does have de-icing equipment.
The problem Virgin had a couple of months back with ice in Melb was a result of the de-icing equipment being U/S. I understand it is operational now and has been used a number of times since.

blueloo
11th Aug 2005, 02:56
I'll check my facts with the Townsville refueller and get back to you ! :}

ratpoison
11th Aug 2005, 05:29
Yes, well typical Emirates not providing appropriate equipment. A/C cold soaks during 14 hour flight, lands, and expected to turn around in 1hr 20min in temps below 10deg. This is a world renown problem with the Airbus. However, due to no deice equipment and the Australian work place and safety crap, no one is allowed to hang over the wing with a broom to scrape it off unless thay have about 3 harnesses, a crane, fishing net, steel studded shoes and a baseball cap. !!!

Therefore, the A/C has to push off stand at dept time due to other traffic and then follow the sun for an hour for it all to melt. What a bloody circus. !!!

Jet_A_Knight
11th Aug 2005, 06:07
FWIW it was still parked when I left YMML at very early a.m.

Pimp Daddy
11th Aug 2005, 07:36
Same method with the Dash-8s in MEL, frosty mornings, back to the crewroom and wait for the big yellow de-icer to rise.

Buster Hyman
11th Aug 2005, 08:49
...All you'd need was a kettle, a pair of runners & a ladder! Besides, I'd have thought EK would be used to these conditions...where are they from again?

HAMO
11th Aug 2005, 09:54
Ratpoison

Good to see you know the full story here

Aircraft did not come in from a 14hr flight with cold soak as you claim .. it only operated the short AKL-MEL sector and was in transit to DXB ..

And as for EK not supplying the right equipment .. well guess that applies to ALL the international carriers in MEL who dont have de-icing equip .. including QF right?

Like they say, dont let the truth get in the way of a good story

404 Titan
11th Aug 2005, 10:08
HAMO

Itís a bit like his quote:
This is a world renown problem with the Airbus.
I have news for him. Cold soak isnít only an Airbus problem. Itís a problem inherent in every long rang aircraft ever built.

zulu_kilo
11th Aug 2005, 10:27
Here here.

The flight in reference was indeed AKL-MEL -DXB, so would have been waiting a very long time for the sun to melt the ice.

Flight did cancel and was due to leave around 3pm LT today (thurs)


Ratpoison - I think you were refering to a similar incident with EK a week or two ago where this happened (in reverse :- DXB-MEL-AKL) but only delayed the flight about 40mins.

Icebreaker
11th Aug 2005, 10:28
Ratpoison,

is that the same cold soak I get in my ski boots at Threadbo? :D

ratpoison
11th Aug 2005, 12:04
Hamo,

Is there any statement there about "that" particular flight. No no no I dont think so. If you were in the know, thou would have the knowledge that in an average week, Emirates sit on the ground 3 - 4 times FOR THE AKL LEG FROM MEL, waiting for the sun to melt the ice EARLY IN THE MORNING. Most other "international operaters" with the A330/340 have the aircraft on the ground for a matter of hours before the next sector which departs well after sunrise or the aircraft has sat overnight in MEL. Under these conditions, it aint an issue. But lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Titan.

Please advise me how many times the 777 has sat on the ground in the morning when "it used to do the AKL".
Mmmm, yes what a gift you have on cold soak. I think you need a lesson on how to read a passage and then retain what was said.
Now, the teacher is going to give you a good spanking if you dont answer the next questions correctly.

Question 1: Did Rat say in any part that "cold soak is ONLY an Airbus problem".

Question 2: Was the renown problem stated, a problem with "cold soak" or was it (hint hint) about exceptional amount of ice that builds up on most of the upper surface of the A330/340.

Hint: to answer the questions, one does not need extensive operational experience on the 777 or A330/340.

yowie
11th Aug 2005, 12:22
Just wondering how QF get around the icing limitations by 'moving fuel around'? Surely EK would have taken a large load but it wouldnt have absolved them from the manufacturers limitations re ice.Why wouldnt ML have de-ice,its always bloody freezing there,is it really an individual airline responsibilty?

tobzalp
11th Aug 2005, 12:50
Melbourne is pants, Brisbane is where it is at Yo.

404 Titan
11th Aug 2005, 13:09
ratpoison
Question 1: Did Rat say in any part that "cold soak is ONLY an Airbus problem".
A/C cold soaks during 14 hour flight, lands, and expected to turn around in 1hr 20min in temps below 10deg. This is a world renown problem with the Airbus.
OK youíre splitting hairs here. Maybe I should have said Cold soak leading to ice build up on the ground isnít only an Airbus problem with short turn around times. Itís a problem inherent in every long rang aircraft ever built. The airline I work for has a large fleet of A330/340, B777 and B747. All seem to suffer from cold soak causing icing while parked to the same extent. Most of our turn around times are in the order of about an hour and a half. Almost without except after the aircraft is refuelled, the ice and frost melts. I have never experienced a delay because of it and I have been flying them for 5 years.
Please advise me how many times the 777 has sat on the ground in the morning when "it used to do the AKL".
I have no idea. All I can say is that maybe EK are tankering around fuel in the bus but werenít in the Tripler? If carried to the extreme this can cause a problem in any aircraft.
Question 2: Was the renown problem stated, a problem with "cold soak" or was it (hint hint) about exceptional amount of ice that builds up on most of the upper surface of the A330/340.
The ice is only going to be there because of cold soak and humidity in the air. The amount of ice that builds up on the upper surface of the wing is a function of both these and the amount of cold soaked fuel still in the tanks. Again I havenít seen or heard of anything in our company that suggests one is worse than the other and we operate our aircraft to some pretty harsh environments.

Dehavillanddriver
11th Aug 2005, 21:49
Virgin don't have de-icing gear in Melbourne.

Buster Hyman
11th Aug 2005, 22:37
Melbourne is pants, Brisbane is where it is at Yo.
Yes! Move to BNE & talk like a tool!:p

king oath
11th Aug 2005, 23:04
Cut to the chase.

Why don't QF BUY some deicing equipment for Melbourne.

Their own aircraft need it every day. They have it in the small port of Canberra. No problemo in Canberra. Its not going to break the budget. One of Geoffs lunches would pay for it.

Geeeez.

The Full Monty
11th Aug 2005, 23:51
I asked my Fleet Manager and the answer was the Environmental Protection Authority (EPA) do not permit de-icing or indeed any type of chemical fluid to be used at Melbourne Airport in the open environs.

The reason is possible contamination of Kororoit Creek and if the EPA find any contaminants that can be traced back to Melbourne Airport, then the Airport Owner and the user of the containment can be fined $10 million.

As such, no operators have the equipment. Also, this is why aircraft are not washed at Melbourne.

blueloo
12th Aug 2005, 00:20
Does someone have a problem with three-eyed fish? :}

Buster Hyman
13th Aug 2005, 00:36
Ahh yes Monty, I remember the good ol' days when the Firies would just hose away a fuel spill! Down into the drains it went...not a problem in the world.

Now, they get the sand boxes out & shovel it all up! Call that progress? Bah!:p

Bumpfoh
13th Aug 2005, 14:03
I think you will find Type 1 de-icing fluids are acceptable for use at most airports including Melbourne which is more than suitable for the CSFF and environmental icing which occurs there.

Damn good question as to why QF haven't yet purchased even the most basic of de-icing equipment to this point, pathetic mangement with little fore-sight I'd say coupled with a good dose of OH&S red tape but who am I to say?! I'm sure a few more crisp mornings with multiple delays will eventually provide the straw to break the camel's back.

In any case why is it QF responsibility to provide the "ancillary" services to other operators eg EK who choose to seek cheaper ground handling services from competing agencies (in this case Menzies and their own engineering staff) with de-icing equipment? I appreciate the co-operation between carriers for AOG situations and times of hardship but where is the line drawn? Seems to me that when the sh.t hits the fan you go crawling to QF and bag them when they can't assist!

:{

rammel
14th Aug 2005, 02:17
The story I heard was QF was meant to buy de-icing equip after a number of delays last year. Appears it has not been bought, probably by someone looking to save money.

singleseater
14th Aug 2005, 06:31
The A340 arrived from AKl with 10 t of motion lotion on board. they put another 115 t ish and the wing tank fuel temp stabalised at around 10 c The outside air temp was +3 c and they had what appeared to be ice behind the rear spar, ie where the fuel could not warm the wing. How you get ice in these conditions I am not sure but I do know that no one, Eng or driver got up on the wing and had a feel. Suspect they had a layer of frost and a simple sweep with a broom would have sorted it.

Capn Bloggs
14th Aug 2005, 06:53
I do know that no one, Eng or driver got up on the wing
Perhaps the WING ICE DETECTED light was on so they didn't need to.

RaTa
14th Aug 2005, 23:39
Guys it sounds like "lets slag off any airline or aircraft type we can" time again.

The simple fact is we live in this wonderful forward thinking place called Oz. In other words you can't de-ice in MEL because the EPA is worried about poluting the enviroment with aircraft being de-iced.

If it were not so, someone would have bought the equipment to do the job. Take QF's case, the cost of delays would be far greater than buying a small de-icing rig.

Funny how there would be places around the world that would have the similar enviromental concerns with de-icing, but find a safe solution in overcomming it.