So what's up at Polar? (Merged again & again)

[fr8box]

Anyone heard how things are going with Polar's contract negotiations? The board has been strangely quiet about the subject.

The last thing I remember being posted was the fact they were near a cooling off period. Rumor has it that Atlas has transferred the 400's to their certificate and are hiring and training furiously....any truth to the rumors?

[Heilhaavir]

False rumor for now Fr8box, 400s still on PO's certificate, no cooling off perios "yet", and hiring like crazy @ both "outfits" :) NMB will decide if PO can be released later on this month, and if released the pilot grp will do what it has to do. The board is very well aware of the results of the strike vote here...:)

Cheerios

[fr8box]

Thanks for the info....I know people at both places and hope everything turns out well for them.

[WhaleDriver]

Aircraft transfers won't happen until cooling off period declared. This will be used to intimidate Polar crews.

Atlas hiring to continue thru end of the year. A number of reasons. Maybe a BIG deal with Boeing, military flying eating up crews and retirements. This can also be used to scare Polar crews, so AAWH gets more bang out of it.

[Heilhaavir]

Frankly AAWH can do whatever they want, I don't think the PO CMs are scared nor can be scared. Everyone but 20 voted for a strike knowing that the outcome could mean the street... and if it has to be the street, so be it :ok:

[WhaleDriver]

A strike vote and a walk out are two VERY differant things. It's rare for a strike vote to end up not being in overwelming support. No big deal. BTW, 20 people is 6% to 7% of the workforce. Could it be that they felt it was easier to not vote vs voting against? Now all of a sudden the 99.23% is 93%. Not such a bragging number.

I also have little doubt that Polar will strike and a VERY large percent of their CM's will walk. A lot of new hires there at Polar? The big differance vs the last strike is, this will not be a three hour strike. It would not be surprising to see a lockout before they get to walk.

[Heilhaavir]

So numbers can be interpreted one way or another, AND? So they can transfer planes as you say, is that a reason to be intimidated? Or there can be a lockout, no kidding, I bet the MEC or the pilot group never thought of that one, glad you educated us :E and that is a reason to be scared? Do you really think we're sh**ting in our pants? Sorry to disappoint you Whale, but no, we are not intimidated.

Lots of new hires yes, like there always have been at PO, most of them came for a type and go on to greener pastures, just look at the turnover. Request for background checks come in constantly and we've lost a bunch to UPS, SWA, JetBlue, AWA, CO etc.... You think they're scared?

Hiring is year round at PO too, can't even keep up, many have had to go back to the sim to restart their clock...

One only fears the unknown, and there is no "unknown" in JC's tacticts.

You know as well as I do that a p**sed off pilot group can be VERY costly, so JC has 2 options, get rid of the pilot group or give them something... Still no reason to be scared :ok:

[flite idol]

I understand that Polar have been released into the 30 day cooling off period now!

[Intruder]

Not quite...

The proffer of arbitration was made by the NMB, but it has to be refused by one of the parties before the cooloing-off period starts. VERY soon now, though -- a day or 3... :ok:

[flite idol]

OK, so the clock should start this week sometime! Good luck to the PO folks, I really hope you get a good deal or at least one you can live with!

[Heilhaavir]

I think the official release date will be 2-3 weeks from now but in any case, Let The Games Begin!

Thks for the kind words flite.

[Intruder]

Surprise! The clock has started!

16 Sep is the deadline.

[flite idol]

WOW! Intruder you really have your finger on the pulse!!!!!!

[CR2]

Polar Air Cargo, pilots enter cooling-off period, Atlas merger suspended
Thursday August 18, 2005
Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, parent of Atlas Air and Polar Air Cargo, suspended plans to merge the carriers in the face of a possible strike next month by Polar's pilots.Polar and the Air Line Pilots Assn. were released from negotiations by the National Mediation Board, starting a 30-day cooling-off period after which the pilots will be free to strike and Polar can impose a contract on the union. The cooling-off period is set to expire at 12:01 a.m. EDT Sept. 16.

Polar is a subsidiary of Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings and an affiliate of Atlas Air. "While the company is committed to reaching an agreement, we simply can't agree to a contract that further challenges the viability of our scheduled service business," said AAWW President and CEO Jeffrey Erickson. Atlas said it offered Polar pilots an immediate 10.5% pay raise plus profit-sharing "with no work rule changes," putting them "at parity" with pilots at Atlas.

AAWW said it also suspended previously announced plans to combine the operations of Atlas and Polar and merge the crew lists. Polar operates 12 747Fs including six 747-400Fs in scheduled cargo service, while Atlas has 22 747s that it provides on ACMI leases to airlines.

Link (http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=2108)

[blackbaron]

Heard Polar transferred 4 jets to Atlas in wake of the upcoming strike and are furloughing starting today? Any word?

[Heilhaavir]

They were not furloughed but TERMINATED because they were brand new hires or still on probation and furlough was not an option for management (scope clause). Unfortunately I think they were hired "to be fired", JC's scare tactics. I feel very sorry for them and no it does not intimidate the rest of us because we know it was JC's strategy from the get go.

Airplanes moved..... let's see, could it be that some of these planes on dry lease were due to end and it was perfect timing for management to use this as another scare tactic during the cooling off period? LOL! Just business as usual for AAWH.

[400drvr]

Heilhaavir,

You are right on the money. But maybe the threat of a strike as we approach the peak season is JC biggest nightmare.:ok:

[WhaleDriver]

Let me get this straight? Your saying that JC is scared of the strike when your MEC, on day four of the cooling off period (an unheard of short time), is calling AAWH and asking for a meeting. In this meeting, the last best offer from the company (an over 60% reduction from your last demand) is all but accepted, and you say JC is scared. If you and yours believes JC is anything but grinning ear to ear, your in big trouble.

Thankfully your MEC would not agree to the conditions AAWH attached, or we would've had a complete CAVE by day five of the cooling off period. Wording is cheap. I change my prediction, you'll never make it to day thirty.

This is not questioning the actions of your MEC. They are under tremendous pressure from ALL directions. I'm just questioning some of the logic posted here.

[torque91]

Copied from another bbs:

Release #05.32

August 25, 2005

ALPA to Polar Air Cargo: Stop the Bad-Faith Bargaining

WASHINGTON, D.C.---In a terse letter to the president and CEO of Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings (AAWH), the president of the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l. (ALPA) charged that AAWH subsidiary Polar Air Cargo is bargaining in bad faith and demanded that the airline stop its violations of federal labor law.

ALPA stated that the company’s transfer of a Polar aircraft to Atlas Air Inc., another AAWH subsidiary, and termination of the 24 crewmembers who operated the aircraft violates the status quo that was imposed after the National Mediation Board released the parties, starting the 30-day “cooling off” period before either side can take economic self-help action such as a strike or lockout. The company’s action is seen by ALPA as retaliation for ALPA’s obtaining from the NMB a release from mediated bargaining, over the company’s objections.

The letter was sent Aug. 23 by ALPA President Duane Woerth to Jeffrey Erickson, president and CEO of Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings in Purchase, N.Y.

According to ALPA, the company also is violating federal labor law by having management officials engage in direct bargaining with rank-and-file members. Management is required to conduct all bargaining with ALPA’s elected union representatives.

“If you comply with this request, the parties can look forward to the resumption of bargaining and the possible peaceful conclusion of this matter,” Woerth said. “We believe that it is both parties’ interests that neither causes the dispute to escalate out of control.”

The Polar crewmembers began negotiations with management in February 2003, when their most current contract became amendable under the terms of the Railway Labor Act. Negotiations have been conducted with the assistance of the National Mediation Board since July 2003. ALPA represents 64,000 airline pilots at 41 carriers in the U.S. and Canada. Its website is www.alpa.org.

[411A]

I truly wonder when the folks at ALPA will wake up properly, and discover the present day scenario at many airline companies....do as you are told, or face the consequences.

Atlas has every right to transfer aircraft between the two companies, and I am certainly not totally surprised that ALPA has dropped the ball here, and not realized before that the upper hand in this scenario, as with nearly EVERY airline company, is held by the airline management.

Co-operate and graduate, or be shown the door.

True in the distant past? No, but certainly true now.

CX pilots found out first hand, much to their disappointment, I'm sure.

[Heilhaavir]

Whale,
there has never been a last best offer, better yet there is no offer at all. Next time you and JC get under the sheets, before you say nite nite and give him a smooch, ask him why he's being such a bad boy. We're trembling here, the wait is unbearable, pure torture. You wouldn't know what his next step is besides terminating the next batch on Monday would you? We need to know, please help us Whale.................

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

Seems the latest rumor circulating around UA head office is that
UA is going to buy Polar from Atlas and set up a Cargo operation at HNL.

On the surface does not seem feasible as UA is still using Bankruptcy as their own personal Bank. Where does one
come up with Hundreds of millions of dollars when you have
no assets to leverage??

Is there any truth to this rumor or is this just "water cooler" fodder???

[CR2]

I heard something the other day about UPS getting Polar's transpac rights, Atlas getting all the 400s, Polar being closed down.

:suspect:

[Captain Airclues]

Atlas getting all the 400s

Any chance that GSS could have one please?

Airclues

[Intruder]

Why would Polar cost hundreds of millions? Atlas Holdings bought it for a song from GECAS. All that would be left after the -400s are stripped would be a few unprofitable routes and a half dozen leased -100s and -200s...

[GlueBall]

If UPS were to buy Polar it may not fare well for Polar pilots. When UPS bought Challenge Air Cargo a few years ago [to get access into Brasil], Challenge pilots were put out on the street without even job offers at UPS. It's a dog-eat-dog world :{

[CR2]

Is there any truth that the PO 400s currently in heavy checks (N451PO? & another?) will come out with a simple blue tail without the logo? 'Tis what I heard.

[loadingmanual]

I think CR2 has it spot on, ive heard similar rumours about the UPS deal, though from what i remember i dont think Polar paid the extra $$$$$$ when they got their -400F's so they dont have the extended ZFW data, though i cud b wrong!

[CR2]

loadingmanual I'm pretty sure they do have extended zfw.
Have a look

here (http://www.polaraircargo.com/specifications/cargoequipment_400s.asp)

The numbers indicate extended to me (I'm assuming that what they call Maximum Cabin Load is net weight, excluding ULDs).

[loadingmanual]

CR2

Like i said, i cud be wrong, though it looks like that way when you look at the website info, any Polar guys out there know?

[Heilhaavir]

You got it all wrong guys, the PO planes are going to America West, the routes to USAir, and the pilots to KoksukAir, a new french outfit that plans on sending escargots by the ton to the victims of Katrina, but please don't tell anyone :)

[CargoMatatu]

CR2

Allowed Maximum Cabin Load is GROSS.

May the Matatu be with you.

Matatu Man:cool:

[400drvr]

I can see my fellow pilots are salivating over the thoughts of picking Polars bones clean when it shuts down. Thanks for your kind thoughts and support.:ok:

[flite idol]

Well the vultures are circling and there is no corpse! There probably wont` be one either. Best of luck to the PO folks!

[CR2]

Matatu, then 121T gross is a little low for a 400... You know the a/c; extended? Strange number.

As for the rest: this here be a rumo(u)r network, am just posting what I hear. Perhaps I should have mentioned in the beginning: UPS would buy the traffic rights. Allegedly.

:suspect:

[flite idol]

If you mean landing slots when you say traffic rights, then we can put this one to rest straight away. Polar has "rights" to both China and Japan that are not transferable to anyone, not even to Atlas. They go with the operating certificate and certain performance criteria (such as on time etc) must be maintained or they can be taken away and reallocated. PO does not own them per say and cannot trade, barter, sell them or use them for a downpayment on a new Ford Mondeo.

[400drvr]

As far as the sale of Polar or it's certificate there is a 15 day government requirement to announce a sale. So far there has been no filing.

And thanks for kind words flite idle!

[ironbutt57]

When UPS bought Challenge...many of the Challenge pilots were from the "wrong side" of the Eastern strike..that might have had something to do with the fact they did not take the pilot group...as mentioned above..let's not be in too much of a hurry to "pick Polar's bones clean...

[Heilhaavir]

So Whale, any final thought?
Partay starts in a few hrs, rock on :ok:

[WhaleDriver]

At least everyone will be home for the "partay". Word on the street, PAC is shutting down. Crews being sent home. AAWH must not have the Atlas MEC in their back pocket like they did with the Polar MEC three years ago, or they wouldn't be wasting their time sending the crews home.

Eleven hours is a lifetime when it comes to cooling off periods. We'll see.

[Heilhaavir]

Unfortunately some are still around the system and were not allowed to leave (by scheduling), so the word on the street you heard is not that accurate. The rest are all arriving slowly to the different picketing locations, thursday nights in MIA are a blast, come on over guys :E
(Shutting it down is quite ok)

[blackbaron]

Good Luck guys, my prayers are with you. As a former "Polaroid" I want nothing but the best for my fellow aviators at Circle P.

Strength in Unity.

[Heilhaavir]

Thanks blackbaron!

On 08/12 Whale wrote:
<<A strike vote and a walk out are two VERY differant things. It's rare for a strike vote to end up not being in overwelming support. No big deal. BTW, 20 people is 6% to 7% of the workforce. Could it be that they felt it was easier to not vote vs voting against? Now all of a sudden the 99.23% is 93%. Not such a bragging number.

I also have little doubt that Polar will strike and a VERY large percent of their CM's will walk. A lot of new hires there at Polar? The big differance vs the last strike is, this will not be a three hour strike. It would not be surprising to see a lockout before they get to walk.>>


strike started @ 0601Z :)

[Intruder]

A lot of new hires there at Polar?
Nope. They've already been fired.

[WhaleDriver]

Sorry it came to this. I was hoping, as it got to early morning, AAWH would finally come around. It's the pits when you have to risk your job to find out how much money Polar was really making. A TOTAL lack of trust between the employees and the third floor is almost crimnal.

Just checked the schedule. No PO's in the system. It's a sad day when there are no "Polar" or "Polar Tiger" call signs out there, anywhere.

Struck work rules were released a few hours ago and you have the support of Atlas Air and most the cargo industry. Once pickets locations are posted, I'll be more that happy to join you on the picket line. GOOD LUCK! We'll need it.

[CR2]

WD...
How much money?
I hear something quite different, more or less along the lines of 5Y subsidising PO's ops for the last couple of years.
Would like to hear the other side of the story.
I'd hate to see one of the great names in our business disappear.

[WhaleDriver]

CR2,

That's the question many would like to have the answer to. Some of it depends on what people want to hear. AAWH is famous for shell games and won't break out the numbers, Atlas vs Polar. When they do break them down to scheduled, ACMI, and charter/military, scheduled is the big looser. That's, today.

When Atlas was in the last days of the cooling off period, three years ago, ACMI was a big looser. Just seems a little too convenient for AAWH, or maybe, just piss poor timing by the unions.

[Heilhaavir]

Thanks Whale, no big deal really, yes it's sad to get to that point for some, but the good thing is that we'll all know each other in the next class. Wasn't worried before and nor am I now. There is a life after PO. Everybody stuck together as you can see :E

[non sched]

Pilots at Polar Air Cargo went on strike Friday, refusing to fly for the worldwide freight airline.

The union announced the strike starting at 1:30 a.m. EDT September 16 after negotiating since February 2003 and mediation since June of that year.

The National Mediation Board released the parties from negotiations last month into a mandated 30-day cooling off period. That period ended Thursday at midnight, after which the Polar crewmembers staged the first strike against a major cargo airline in recent memory.

"While we regret the Polar crewmembers' decision to strike," said Jeffrey H. Erickson, president and CEO of Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Polar's parent, "we have prepared for this contingency. Consistent with our strategic initiatives to place our aircraft where they are most profitable, we have returned three aircraft on dry lease to Polar back to Atlas Air. We have also placed two Polar aircraft for sale or lease, and are in the process of placing the remaining seven aircraft in other uses, including dry leases. As a result, only seven of the Company's 42 aircraft are affected by the strike."

The company also laid off 40 of Polar's most junior pilots recently as it shifted some of its capacity over to Atlas, an outsourced air operator for world airlines. Polar flies 747 freighters in scheduled service around the world, selling its capacity to forwarders.

[non sched]

Moderator

Seems to me a breaking news story about a strike at a major cargo carrier (the only one in recent memory according to the article) would merit a seperate thread from a generic "what's happening at Polar" thread but that's just me I guess.

[411A]

ALPA has shot itself in the foot once again.
Silly boys.

[funflyer99]

This strike is going to turn out like the NW mechanics....lot of good people on the street. What a waste.

[GlueBall]

If the Atlas boys had any balls they'd walk off the job and support their brothers in the same Holding Company.

[CR2]

non sched: I prefer to keep the subject matter in one thread.

[funflyer99]

Should have thought about Atlas support before filing the scope grievance...PO MEC loses again.

[Heilhaavir]

I would never ask an Atlas brother to walk off his job to protect mine. We are 2 separate companies and this is OUR problem. The only support we have asked for is not to fly "struck" freight, and so far Fedex, NWA, UAL, Kittyhawk, and Gemini have agreed to it (Atlas as well)
For the rest, if management wants to shut PO down, that's fine with me.

[Beaver Driver]

HH
I know for a fact that Atlas pilots have not flown any cargo from ANC. Each master waybill is inspected for Polar's number (403) by the crew and others, and each pallet of cargo is inspected for evidence that it is Polar cargo. In addition, Atlas pilots have been on the picket line and all those on the picket lines have been fed (free) by food from an Atlas pilot's restaurant.

The only problem I see is that your support is fast wavering due to the antics of your former MEC chairman both on and off the picket line. This gentleman (BF) has apparently decided to take it on himself to visit Atlas pilots houses (granted he apparently knew them) and tell those pilots wives that they are now considered scabs. It has also been reported that he had a verbal confrontation with an Atlas pilot on the picket line who had volunteered his free tiime to support you guys. This is unsatisfactory.

From this and other reports I have heard, the Polar pilots have gotten outstanding support from their Atlas brothers despite all of the acrimony leveled at them both in ANC and also in ORD and other places.

Good luck to you guys.
BD

[Heilhaavir]

Kevin,
2 Atlas pilots joined the picket line the first day of the strike, one of them was the brother in law of a PO pilot, and we thank them for their time. But that was it and understandibly enough since they are not supposed to picket.
As for the free food, sounds like a very nice gesture but no picketers have seen it. Would you have the address of that restaurant so we can let them know their food was lost on it's way there? You wouldn't be talking about the coffee shop would you?
I have no beef with you, and frankly I could care less if the place shuts down, but if the Atlas pilots are doing their job and checking the airway bills like you say, what do they have to worry about? Why did they have to use different entrance locations, have their van wait in an area all lights off, have the ops people use their own cars at some point to drop them off, etc..... ? Don't you think that if they just showed up for work as usual through the normal entrance they have used for years, they would'nt give the impression they are hiding something? The picketers are not there to prevent anyone from getting on an airplane, they are there to remind everybody not to carry PO freight, it's as simple as that.
If Bob's doing what you say he is, have him taken care of, that shouldn't be hard to do and you might even get the help of the PO guys :E

[Beaver Driver]

Pat,

The food (hot-dogs) was delivered by an Atlas pilot Friday afternoon. Saturday I had it in my truck on my way to the line but there were no picketers in sight - turns out they are only picketing when an Atlas airplane is inbound or outbound. Why pick on Atlas pilots only; especially in ANC where there are many many other cargo aircraft that may be carrying Polar cargo.

The Atlas pilots are merely going to work flying their own aircraft. Because you are concentrating only on Atlas aircraft you have, however, managed to let other cargo carriers (Southern Air, Tradewinds, FedEx, UPS, JAL, ANA, Dynasty, and many others) past your line without taking their pictures, asking them "not to carry Polar cargo," and giving them a blast of crap. Why is that?

Atlas pilots are close enough to this and have told you many times that they support you and are doing everything in their power to prevent carraige of Polar cargo. The fact is, there is no Polar Cargo to carry. See for yourself, call a Polar Cargo office - I have. No Polar sales office will currently accept any cargo. So I wonder where all this cargo that Atlas pilots are supposedly carrying is coming from.

Remember, this is your strike, not Atlas'. So if a crewmember passes through your line, he is not "crossing a picket line" as he is not flying your aircraft nor carrying your cargo. If an Atlas pilot chooses to "honor" your picket line, that is his choice. Yesterday morning two Atlas Pilots chose not to "honor" your picket line and were called scabs and given a verbal blast for "crossing a picket line" to fly their own aircraft. I dare you to do that to a FedEx NWA or UPS pilot. In fact, one of your picket stations in ANC is right where the NWA pilots must drive through to get to thier freighters - are you going to call them scabs for not honoring your picket line and for flying their own aircraft?

While this is a "rumor" board, everything I told you has been verified. If you want continued support you better find a way to get your guys (Bob) to focus a little less anger on the only pilots in this industry that can really help you.

I hope to do breakfast in HKG with you again sometime :)

Good luck to all of you.

BD

[zerozero]

I'm just speaking for myself as an Atlas pilot: I'm confused.

In the latest VARS we are once again reminded by our own MEC to *not* cross a picket line.

But as it's been pointed out, what's the problem with using our normal entrance at work to fly our own airplanes?

Or what about the guys going to training and having their pictures taken?

This doens't make much sense to me.

I'd suggest that if it seems some Atlas pilots are being sneaky and using the backdoor it's only because they're following the advice of the MEC.....which, I gotta be honest, is a little confusing.

[Intruder]

If you're confused, call the MEC hot line NOW. You have the number; it works worldwide.

[zerozero]

Intruder--Fair enough.

I guess what I meant to say is that the MEC's message is clear enough, "Don't cross the line."

But you have to admit, given some of the activity described above, that it could be misinterpreted as sneaking about.

That's all I want to say. What do I have to hide? Nothing.

[Fr8Dog]

An Atlas F/O was suspended Monday without pay for refusing to cross the picket line at the Miami training center. I am not sure why the Polar pilots are picketing the training center.

[Perf Init]

For those Polar campers who read and or post (Heilhaavir)
to this forum thread:

Why are you (and other Polar campers) directing your efforts against Atlas Air (pilots) versus the source of your problems (as you claim) which is AAWWH ?

Seems that some of the membership have forgotten the broken down, ill maintained equipment Polar operated prior to the AAWWH purchase (from GE) of the flailing Polar operation.

AAWWH in an effort to clean-up that operation rid it of those broken-down Pratt 100's and replaced it by leasing AC from the Atlas Air fleet (74-400'S AND 74-200wGE engines). Polar in 2000/2001 was then providing direct hire to captain (74-200) at the time. The roster must contain some 50% hired from 2000 and now. And before this strike had pilots (since 2003) from this recent hire (2000/2001) flying as captain on the 74-400.

They (AAWWH) developed a Polar airline to understand what an on-time operation was as opposed to the maintenance delayed departure tomorrow or the next it had.

In the meantime Atlas Air pilots suffered the consequence of furlough, downgrade, and reduced pay opportunities in THEIR career position/choice/company. Not to mention the AAWWH simultaneous transfer of 74-400's (3) to GSS and EVA(1), and the start-up of the AACS operation (more Atlas Air pilot jobs and opportunities). All along, that membership (Atlas) treated you (Polar) with open arms and without ill gesture (until this day).

Oh, I've forgotten to mention the NO SUPPORT Atlas Air ALPA council got from the Polar Air (brothers?) during it's LAST HOUR contract negotiation.

I'm sure Atlas Air is not flying Polar freight but was their any to start with beforehand?

The so called Japanese routes were to/from a country in deep recession throughout the 90's and only until recent time has shown any life. The Polar South American routes were already duplicated at Atlas Air (of which AAWWH sold thereafter). So why was Polar Air ever "purchased" is beyond many. An ill-begotten idea/dream?

Could someone from the Polar camp please explain to the readership what Polar has brought to AAWWH other than plenty of write-offs and downs, debt, fuel bills, and missed/reduced opportunities for Atlas Air pilots?

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused

Kalitta and Focus Air are hiring though :ok:

[Avius]

Perf Init,

I don't want to divert from the issue of this thread, but I feel some need to correct some of the statements about the missed AAWH opportunities, i.e. outsourcing jobs to GSS, AACS, etc.

I remember some 7 years ago when Atlas got their first 747-400 flying Cargolux contracts, thus taking opportunities from (unemployed) european pilots. Before/after a flight you guys were sneaking quietly by the Cargolux's Offices not to attract too much attention, fearing the Cargolux crews would let their anger down on you guys. Instead, you were treated with friendliness and dignity. It was just a matter of time, until the European pilots would get their jobs back, AACS and GSS are one of the ways making it happen. No ill feelings, just refreshing memories and "watering" down the statement about giving Atlas' opportunities away.

[Heilhaavir]

Good point Avius.

Zero, you're probably the most honest one.

Kev: screw Fell! Breakfast with you in HKG or anywhere else with pleasure. I do wish to remind you what you wrote at first <<In addition, Atlas pilots have been on the picket line and all those on the picket lines have been fed (free) by food from an Atlas pilot's restaurant>> and then corrected it by <<The food (hot-dogs) was delivered by an Atlas pilot Friday afternoon. Saturday I had it in my truck on my way to the line but there were no picketers in sight>> Definitely not a big deal, but quite different statements :) Thanks for the intent and time though and that's sincere.
As for Bob's story, well, I wasn't there and you weren't either most probably, so why talk about an incident we don't know happened for sure .... ask Mav, he seems to say it wasn't true, and I don't think he's a Fell fan. Then again, if he did knock on his friends' doors while they were away to tell their wives they are scabs, you should all get together and shut him up :)

Perf Init, like many others, you read what you want to read grasshopper :p :p :p Show me where I have EVER said that Atlas Air or their crews were the problem, just quote me once.... I have merely responded & corrected some statements which I know are wrong. I'll repeat one last time sweetie pie, PO can shut down anytime you or your "management" wants it, as far as I'm concerned. Indeed there are plenty of jobs out there and most importantly there is a life after PO :E Why AAWH hasn't closed the door yet, I really don't understand. Continuing to support a losing operation for years and now paying leases on airplanes that aren't even moving.......amazing "management" style :8 , truly amazing.

As for Paul, my hat off to him, he has brass balls, he made a statement down in MIA while not having been forced to by anyone, knowing he'd be disciplined. :ok: :ok: :ok:

[Aftershock]

What is it the pilots want from this strike that is worth shutting down an airline and putting more than just themselves on the street?
Reading this thread and various other sources it seems to be about much more than just a wage increase.
Seems a shame that so many people and a great airline will suffer from this dispute.

[WhaleDriver]

Any wild guesses on who "GoodbyePolar" is? Location of Purchase, NY, and registered Sep. 2005.

[grazydedog]

ok , let me tell you why aawwh offer is patetic,and yo can go and then tell cato why:

we have been negotiating for more than 2 1/2 years, the merger has an 18 months time period ( we all know it will have to go to an arbitrator, you guys have not been negotiating in good faith from day one) , and after those 18 months, if the arbitrator decides to make the new contract better than each one of the individual contracts, aawwh has the rigth to refuse the merger, so Polar will have once again to negotiate , another 2 1/2 years. so , let's see, 10.5% pay raise for 6 1/2 years...... that does not even cover inflation ( remember polar crews are already the lowest paid) .

we wwold agree to a 10.55% raise with an automatic 5% raise if the merger is called off by aawwh after 18 months, but they don't want to agree to that, because they obbiously don't planon mergin the airlines, unless the arbitrator gives us something like atlas work rules and polar pay.

now go tell cato you moron.

[Beaver Driver]

GD,
You have been negotiating for 2 1/2 years? Is that before or after the raise you all accepted and approved to extend your contract for 6 months so the company could screw Atlas pilots first. Atlas pilots would have loved to be able to negotiate at the same time (strength in numbers, divide and conquer, etc etc) - instead you all voted with your wallets instead of your heads.

[grazydedog]

beaver drvr, that's after the 6 motnh exensitn. lso kep in mind that most polar crews did not vote with their wallets, they voted the extension because the company promised to file for mediation after the 6 month, and we were negotiating with lee Steele,who did try to negociate ingood faith but was not allowed by mutt. if we could take it back, we would .

goddbye polar, you are retarded or don't know what you are talking about. read the merger letter the aawwh has presented, there you can see that the company has the rigth to refuse the merger for ant economic or other busiiness decision it deems approiate ( read, if we don't ike what the arbitrator offer our crews) , so no, is not in alpa's court ,but in aawwh.

now go help cato pee

[Beaver Driver]

GD

Goodbyepolar=Jim Cato.

He's not worth the time it takes you to reply to him - and he is trying to confuse the issue. It's what he wants. His desire is for you to focus on him and take your mind off the real issues. He also loves to divide the pilots groups. That is why the Atlas Pilots wanted you on board for all of this. It is one reason the Atlas Pilots are so confused about your picket lines which focus only on them as well as the picture taking and name calling. They have tried solidarity with Polar but it is hard to do when Polar doesn't seem to want solidarity with them. Cato must see that it is working, at least a little bit, and is trying to divide you (again) by changing your focus back to the merger. Keep your eye on the issues and watch what they do, not what they say.

[Fr8Dog]

You all are a bunch of babies and make me sick! You are supposed to be professional pilots, but you act like school children. You have played right into Mr. Cato’s hand. You may not like him, but if he were working for you, he would be one of your most valuable employees. He is much smarter than you are ALL giving him credit for. And PLEASE learn to use the spell check at least. Some of you “highly educated” guys need to learn how to proof read your postings before you post.

[grazydedog]

bvr drvr, I think there is a lot of solidarity, and of course a bit of overzealous name calling always happens, even among brohers.

we do appreciate atlas solidarity, the only thing we wish is that national would issue a statement guarantiing full fligth loss pay to any atlas pilot who refuses to cross a polar picket line ( we both now your contract alows for it, so if you get terminated, any arbitrator will return you to full duty, probably in less than 30 days, since your contract allows for it). we believe this will happen again in 2 years unless what I have pointed out is done.

when it comes to mr cacas-goodbyepolar, know that we at polar have nothing to loose, since we get paid less than the starting pay for fo or cap at any contract carrier, so we don't care if it gets shut down and the slots and route authority goes back in the lottery for ups fdx or nwa. the statements that acmi is profitable and sqched is not is totally retarded. acmi is squed. flying, done for another airline that has so much work and is making so much money that they can't handle everything .how come they can make money and the second higest exec team in aviation usa can't???????


bvr drvr, good talking to you

No, not having that x CR2

[Fr8Dog]

This is what I mean about acting like school children. Mr. what ever dog, Do you kiss your Mother with that mouth?
Grow up man!

[grazydedog]

i can't grow up, i'm a 13 year old stuck in a 40 year old body.............it'a lovely curse

[411A]

Polar/ALPA guys, fools all.

Out on the street permanently I would guess, with their way of thinking.

Silly children.:yuk: :yuk:

[grazydedog]

oh, that was so hurtful 411,we really care about polar shutting down.
just curious, are you pathetic middle management or resentful scab?

[to fly or not to fly]

While I understand we all have the right to strike for a number of reasons, and I'm not just referring to Polar but to any unionized employee, there could not have been an worse time to do so. Polar is saying "we have nothing to lose", that couldn't be further from the truth. For so long the Polar pilots have said "we are keeping Atlas alive, that's why they bought us", and "its our routes that keep Atlas is business"....Apparently logic and facts are missing from your equation:

1. Polar Air Cargo has never made a profit, in it's history. Yes they have a few profitable routes, but the cost of operating it's fleet on it's other routes eats all that profit up, so what's the point of a boasting, for example "we've made$100 million dollars in revenue, when the cost of running the airline was $200 million? Your routes never kept Atlas running, Atlas has a history of making profits, might I add INDUSTRY RECORD profits, the only time the profits ceased was when they purchase Polar Air. One should have wondered when and entire airline could be purchased for less then the Texaco Building that Atlas is housed in, that something was arye.

2. How could the Polar pilots expect to make the same money as Atlas Crewmembers who as mentioned above have consistently earned their company high profits? 32% raise for a company that loses money, that is simply reaching for the clouds when you can barely raise your arm.

3. Polar pilots are now saying to everyone that they voted to strike based on MISINFORMATION from their union, wow that's a first. I don't want to see anyone ever lose work, we all have families to support, and my prayers are certainly with the families of the Polar employees, not just the pilots as it seems the company has seen its last day. In this day and age where there really are no secure, or long lasting jobs in aviation is it really wise to hang it up like this? When all they really have to do is ride out the next 12-18 months while Atlas is negotiating the new contract, as you guys will probably be one entity by then and would then reap the things you want, which is the same pay as Atlas crews?

I have a feeling after today Polar will be another legacy and fading memory.

[grazydedog]

mr cato, I mean " to fly or not to fly" .unfortunaly for you, atlas crews are behind s polar crews 100%, so unless you win the indictment in the NY court today, you are in trouble. please don't be retarded. all the atlas guys want the pol ar guys to get as good a contract as possible, just like we at polar want and will support our atlas brothers getting an industry leading contract 2 ( hopefully less) years from now ( we don't believe a merger will happened untill you and your buddy jeff are fired). ggod day and please stop postng here, you will not divide us and you won't be able to start any rumors.

to all the atlas guys reading this, thanks a lot for your support. we are now finally acting like a real national union. thanks again and i'll buy the first round wherever we meet next ( at this airline or the next)

[Ct.Yankee]

for some of us who believed alpa in 1989 and then found out that our brothers at other airlines not only would not support us but were trying to take away our strike benefits, routes and aircraft, this is deja vu all over again yogi. some of us lost our airline, families, even lives towing the union line.
think about it ALL aawh crews. Never again!

[Heilhaavir]

Another new handle .......... geeeeeeez, now that adds to your credibilty.

<<Polar Air Cargo has never made a profit, in it's history. Yes they have a few profitable routes, but the cost of operating it's fleet on it's other routes eats all that profit up, so what's the point of a boasting>>
You must have meant, what's the point of continuing to subsidize a losing operation? or what's the point of even offering a 10.5% raise? and i could go on and on..... just shut the mofu down!

<<How could the Polar pilots expect to make the same money as Atlas Crewmembers who as mentioned above have consistently earned their company high profits>>
Yeah right, so why was the Atlas contract even offered to the PO pilots? And you call yourselves a "management" team? I agree though, screw the 31%, PO should ask for more :ok:

<<Polar pilots are now saying to everyone that they voted to strike based on MISINFORMATION from their union, wow that's a first.>>
That is a first indeed, and how many pilots are we talking about? Like in any group of "humans" there is always a minority that doubts, so don't get your hopes to high, it's only a minority.

I shall repeat myself since you haven't understood yet. You only have 2 choices, shut it down or settle fair. I'd be you I'd chose option 1 :E :E :E :E (do you even get that?)

[411A]

Yes, the ALPA MEC at Polar certainly is.

One simple fact remains.
If AAWH decided to sell Polar lock stock and barrel, I wonder what would the MEC do to avoid the sort of sweetheart deal Kalitta had with Kittyhawk...sell the company to 'em, fold it into chapter 11, abrogate the pilots contract (with court approval) and start afresh.

Oh, I can hear it now..."they cannot do that.

Wanna bet?

Then, who would want Polar?
You might be surprised at the answer.

[Po Boy]

Atlas was granted a restraining order against the Polar picketers, and operations are back to normal, so where does Polar go from here?

Just curious!

[grazydedog]

is a temporary restraining order until they go to court over that. the court date is set for tuesday 14:00. obviously , no judge would allowed a company to be shutdown for 4 days or more when there is a ruling to be have on the matter at a later date by a labor judge ( because no matter who wins, there migth be no company to return to).

so the short answer is, be go to court as planned ( it came at no surprise to anyone that they asked for an emergency injuntion and an expeditious court date ad that the judge granted both)

[grazydedog]

the judge ruled in favor of the atlas mec/polar mec /alpa national an every pilot union in the USA. Of course he upheld the restraining order that prevented Atlas Pilots form doing a simpaty strike, a sick out and /or a slowdown, but he made clear that Atlas crews have every rigth to refuse to cross any picket line manned by any legal union under the RLA. HE DID NOT SPECIFIED AIRPORTS, WICH MEANT ANY AIRPORT ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHERE THERE IS AN ALPA OR ANY OTHER LEGAL RLA UNION PICKETLINE CAN BE REFUSE TO BE CROSSED BY ANY AND ALL ATLAS CREWS WTIHOUT FEAR OF DISCIPLINE FROM THE COMPANY. tha's a victory for pilots evrywhere in the US.

to all those Atlas crew that have refuse to cros ( 100% of them as of ast count) , thank you , and please continue to do that, you now have every legal rigth as stated by our courts.

again thank you for standing up to mutt and jeff. we will achive a fair an equitable contract and 2 years from now so will you.

[grazydedog]

hey po boy, the tro final decition came today. victory for pilot union all across the USA. good news indeed.atlas crews have the legal rigth o refuse to cross any picket line at any airport by any union group under the RLA

[Fr8Dog]

Grazydedog, I suggest that you read the order that was posted today by the Atlas MEC. Not exactly the way you interpreted it I think. Your continued misinformation is amazing, not to be outdone by you’re myriad of typos and misspellings. If I were you I might think about a little night schooling to learn how to write.

[funflyer99]

Bobb and Robin have no more credibility. It is a shame ALPA keeps us all so under-wraps while a strike is going on. I call for Bobb and Robin to resign, not only their MEC slot, but their jobs at PAC altogether. I don't think I can sit in the cockpit with either of them any more.

[grazydedog]

ok mr cato, could we also ask for your and jeff resignstion since you two have zero credibility and will never have any?

[grazydedog]

i'll get rigth on my nigth schooling while you scab, since I now have quite a ot of time on my hands fr8pup

[turrbntrip]

Yo, fr8puppy, a.k.a. grammar and spelling maven of 'Freight Dogs'...

I noticed that while you were panicking about grazedog's grammar...


"you’re myriad of typos"


hahahaha


See you at the Bradley Terminal entrance in LAX- at least, that was the back door you lot were using last night...


TT

[Fr8Dog]

Hey TT, Take the test

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/general/2002/cool_test.htm



See, I knew it !

[turrbntrip]

You first.

TT

[WhaleDriver]

Sorry GD,

No Polar Freight plus no Polar Planes equals no SCABS.
Simple math.

Northwest and FedEx aren't SCABS for flying their freight in their planes and neither are the Atlas pilots for doing the same thing. I bet those NW flights are full of ex-Polar cargo out of Narita. No one picketing them? Just because the only times you picket are when there are Atlas flights, does not make them Scabs, NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRY.

[grazydedog]

when you do a charter on a strike polar route you are scabbing, furthermore , there is polar freight being flown by you guys. lastly, you better hopoe polar gets shut down for good and or the oct 5 court (and the subsequent appleals that will come from that) go in favor of Labor ( the atlas MEC in this case). otherwise you guys will get screw even more on the next contract..... worse than the first time.

you guys don't have to cross . you are helping the company. when you see a polar picket line go back home or the hotel, notify the company and then, when you get your new " entrance assingment" , call the strike center and asked them not no be picketing at that entrance. is that simple if you want it to be. no more excuses. a lot of your guys are doing that. follow their example and spread the word.

again, you think you are safe now? what will happen when you guys start with your new contract? set a good precedent. you are allowed to do that by your contract. help the union and help yourself.

is not polar against atlas and aawwh management, is labor against aawwh management. listen to the atlls vars form the 23. it's aplight for solidarity from your MEC .he has been ordered to shut up by the courts. but you can still use your imagination and creativity not to cross, instead of using it to cross.

have a good day, hope for your solidarity.

[CR2]

Just a hypothetical Q from me.
Assume my company would fly PO cargo on PO routes as a charter. Or PO pallets on one of our scheduled flights going to a PO destination Would that make us scabs too?

[grazydedog]

that's up to the union to decide but , just ask the ups pilot when they went on strike what they thought about the arrow crew that was trying to go there and fly their stuff, or the CAT guys.

as of right now if you flew PO freigth on a po route you would be a scab ( provided we found out)

know, what do you thnk? how would you feel about doing that? would you doit if your contract allows you not to do it?

[Beaver Driver]

Sorry GD,
No matter what Bobb tells you your definition of a scab is wrong and there are MANY airlines that could carry your freight - and some possibly are. The Altas pilots initially agreed to some struck work rules and to "honor" your picket line. Now the TRO says they have to carry Polar frieght if indeed there is any to carry. They don't however, have to go through a legal picket line.

Your continued focus on only the Atlas pilots is further ailienating the ONLY pilots on the planet who have a reason to help you. You only picket when an Atlas flight is coming in or going out. Don't you think AAWH is smart enough to put any Polar cargo on another freighter such as Kallitta, Tradewinds, Southern Air, or even bury it in a FedEx ULD. The Polar pilots are so lazy that they won't even picket the ANC airport properly. I remember when Wien picketed in the 70's. They had picketers on the line 24/7 for 22 months - now that was a picket line!. But did they call the other airlines scabs for carrying their passengers - NOPE.

You guys have drunk too much of the Henderson cool-aid. Two guys, one on each side of a 4 lane road IS NOT a picket line. Following the crew van from the airport and attempting to get in front of it just before the airport turn off IS NOT a picket line! Picketing the crew hotel IS NOT a picket line! Calling the Atlas crews rooms during their rest IS NOT a picket line! Your strikers in ANC have done all of this and more. It is no wonder that the Atlas pilots support for you is rapidly eroding. At this point they (and ALPA) are ready to get rid of you.

Lets review: You are too lazy to put up a proper picket line; you are focusing your ire on only one group of pilots; you have no idea of the true nature of a scab; you don't know the difference between "honoring" a picket line and "crossing" a picket line; and your behavior on the picket line (drinking and partying) has been far below professional. If you want support you better quickly get a clue.

BD

[grazydedog]

I'M not in ANC, so I don't know what goes on there, but I'm sure is not as unprofesional as you make it sound, specially since there have been a few ANC guys that have chosen to go home and not cross a picket line. I was not around when the WEIN guys struck. ALPA is not wanting to get rid of us ( I don't know how you came up with that one , since they had a meeting yesterday at 3:00pm ). and finally, bob does not decice what makes somone a scab, national does, after an investigation.

one single person with a permit to picket constitutes a picket line ( in the airline industry and in any other).no matter where they are ( as long as they have the legal permit to picket)

the ups guys also made calls to the arrow guys rooms flying their stuff ,and call then scabs. was that unprofessional??

the atlas pilot group has as much to loose or more than the polar ( are you one of the few atlas guys who think your contract is good and cato and erickson are your buddies?, what do you think will happened if they don't shut us down? there will be no merger and they willuse us to screw you guys )

ask any other pilot group what they thnk about atlas pilots behavior, go ahead ask.
I already have.

PS: I 'm not calling you a scab, I now you have been place on a very ****ty situaion by our worderfully tilted towards management court sistem, but just like the company uses legalesse and loose interpretation to try force you to do something you are not happy about, you can use that same way of interpretting things on you behalf to refuse to fly and help yourself as well as us.

have a good day

[WhaleDriver]

GD,
So tell me, how much grief have you given Northwest and FedEx about flying your cargo. There's been no Atlas departures out of Narita since the strike. Lots of FedEx and Northwest flights? You checking their flights, picketing their workplaces, calling their pilots in the dark of the nite, calling them Scabs?

[Beaver Driver]

....But this thread is not about Atlas pilots behavior, it is about yours. This is a Polar strike not an Atlas one. An Atlas pilot was fired because he wouldn't go past your picket line in MIA and many others were given time off without pay as they were "honoring" the ALPA defined picket line in ANC previous to the TRO. No Atlas pilot (other than management pilots) has knowingly carried Polar freight on their aircraft.

You are wrong about the definition of a scab and you are wrong about the definition of a picket line. Also, I live less than a mile from the ANC airport and I can tell you without a doubt that everything I said about the Picket lines in ANC is true.

If you want the Atlas Pilots support then put your picket line up 24/7 - don't expect them to do your dirty work for you.

[grazydedog]

AS FAR AS WE KNOW HE FDX MEC AND THE NWA CARGO MEC HAVE BEEN 100% BEHIND US AND HAVE INSTRUCTED THEIR CREW TO LOOK FOR AND REFUSE ANY AND ALL POLAR CARGO, AND THEY HAVE DONE THAT. ALSO, YOU GUYS ARE NOT ALOWED IN NRT,IF YOU WERE ,THE COMPANY WOULD TRY TO HAVE YOU FLY THERE.

AGAIN, IM NOT IN ANC AND I'M NOT CALLING YOU A SCAB, JUST ASKING YOU TO THINK ABOUT YOUR FUTURE. YOU CAN HELP US AND YOUR SELF. BE SELFISH AND HELP YOURSELF BY HELPING US, BUT FOR GODS SHAKE DON'T HELP CATO KEEP HIS JOB AND GET A PAY RAISE !!

[Beaver Driver]

I heard there was one Polar guy at the border crossing betwween Canada and Alaska and they consider the whole state to be picketed. :D

Also hear that due to their antics their "permit" to picket the ANC airport has been revoked. Now they are picketing the Atlas crew hotel - is that a legal picket line?

Just listen to that support going away!

[turrbntrip]

"Your definition of what constitutes a scab is meaningless! Atlas crews flying Atlas cargo in an Atlas plane aren't scabs, no matter what you may think."
***

Ah, but if it was only Atlas cargo, then we wouldn't have a 'problem', would we? If you're right, why the frantic defending of your actions?

So much guilt...seeping out of the keyboard onto your post.

Changing LAX-ICN from PAC 281 to GTI 281- sorry, but we don't see NWA, FDX etc. flying our trips with their planes. Sheesh, you could at least have gotten mgt. to change the flight number. Or would the Koreans not have bought off on that?

What's next for your crossers (and I say this in complete deference to the ballsy GTI boys that have stayed home) helicopters to ops? We can't picket the damned sky- or every entrance to LAX, or all the other back-door BS airports Atlas mgt. dreams up.

Your argument that we aren't there 'enough' is crap. We have 350 or so pilots, it's hard to keep up with your changing gateways...Elmendorf, Fairbanks etc, all over CONUS. It's a bloody shell game and you know it.

At COA, the only places that were picketed was out front of the terminal- and those guys that crossed- i.e., flew trips while the strike was on- were filthy scabs all the same.

The difference is, COA mgt. didn't have the courts in their back pockets...A picket line was a picket line, some days there were only 3 or 4 guys at BUR or SBA. Lorenzo didn't have the pull to have judges come out to play on a Sunday afternoon, like J and J and the Board do.

Enjoy your ill-gotten gravy and quick upgrades while you can- you'll have your turn with Cato n' co. soon enough.

And I'll watch you squirm and whine, and laugh...




TT

[grazydedog]

when the a gm motor plant goes on strike, picketers post themselves on the front door, and the whole site is considered struck. have you ever seen the size of those plants???
if you have the permit, one single picketer can struck one factori or work site . ( have you ever seen a picketed construction site? I have seen one where there was just one guy, the whole site was struck and no metal worker went in at the kci airport outskrts).

if they don't have the permit to conduct a picket they can't do it ( or they can but is meaningless and will get fined). but if they have they can. I don't know about the hotel, I'm pretty certain that since it is a neutral party on this conflict, picketing there, other than for informational purposes has no meaning at all.
I don't see the support for this strike wanning, quite the contrary, but if picketers at ANC are missbehaving the way you said, you shoud contact the strike center, your mec and national with your concerns, intead of just getting angry and do what goodbyepolar( i meant cato) wants you too.

personally, if we suvive I wil be happy sitting at home without pay when you guys go on strike. but then again I might have a better understanding of what is a stake here and what will be astake when you guys walk out.

[Beaver Driver]

Sorry TT,
The last LAX-ICN was 512 with a GT call sign not even close to 281; operated on the 25th and the customer was clearly KE. The next one is not until the 9th and again the customer is KE. Your credibility is fading as fast as your support.

If you only have 350 or so pilots then what made you think that you could motivate AAWWH in the first place. Your lack of pilots or structure is your problem and your ill concealed attempts to force the Atlas pilots to take an illegal work action are transparent to the rest of the world.

The Atlas pilots ARE supporting you but as far as I can see they are sick of being targeted for flying their own airplanes and carrying their customers freight. There are much better ways to garner their support than targeting ONLY their flights and trashing their cars as well as illegally picketing their crew hotel. Better get a clue fast - tomorrow is the 30th.

BD

[turrbntrip]

Dream on, BD.

Last week, those were the flight numbers. You can make up anything you like in BD-land, like you always do...but you know what you are...sleep tight!

You've been talking trash about PAC and its crews since day 1 on this board, when you lied about not flying for GTI- and, spouting the J&J Kool-Aid, lied about PAC having 'no value' in spite of it's assets subsequently being used as collateral to keep AAWH solvent.

You and your like-minded bretheren are in the catbird seat now, sure, but when you try to negotiate your next contract... well, that's gonna be a hoot for me, even if I'm still on the street. I'll get a good laugh as I see GSS, AACS or whatever other alter-ego outfit J&J will use fly off into the sunset with a load of 'your' GTI cargo, while you stew and steam.

Whatever you allow through your actions or inactions to happen to us, you're gonna get it back, and take it from me, you won't like how it tastes. Remember that those judges, and relevant figures in gov't, all the way to the pResident, are biased towards mgt, NOT labor. Think you guys will get one of the black robes to come out at 4pm on a Sunday to rule in YOUR favor? Heh. Give me some o' what you're smoking.

Last week's LAX-ICN flight was a reflagged PAC trip- NOT a KAL charter. I was there, you weren't, I saw a copy of the release from a buddy in ops- fomerly OUR ops. So try another one.

And, I was there last night for the KAL trip when you clowns snuck in the back door for that one. Again, all reflagging issues aside, why the rat-like creeping around, flying into satellite airport, sneaking in back doors, with armed guards, if you and EricksonCato have nothing to hide? Hmm?

I'll be there tomorrow night, too, and will expect more of the same.

Maybe there will be a blimp, the SS AAWHCatoErickson, that will hover over the ramp and you will descend by rope ladder...whatever happens, you'll sneak by- over, under or around our admittedly thin lines, and comfort yourselves with the fantasy that you didn't fly struck freight for a struck airline.

Sleep tight, BD. As I said, you, and your like-minded bretheren, know what you are.

TT

[atlast]

Very heated rhetoric. I shall try to stick to the facts and would like some sensible replies and comments.

Atlas Airplane

Giant Callsign

JFK-DOV

Customer AMC

Atlas operations tell (The Crew) to go to Building 21 in the HOTEL VAN in which there are also 3 Kallitta guys.

Videod leaving hotel.

Followed to Bldg 21 by car, being videod.

500 yards from building 21, on an approach road, 3 picketting Polar guys approach the side of the road as the hotel van passes by.

Hotel van stops outside of Bldg 21 and Kallitta crew de-bus.

(The Crew) stay on van and refuse to enter Buliding 21 as
(The Crew) consider it picketted.

(The Crew) call operations to inform them that they are not entering Bldg 21 as they consider it picketted even though the picketters are not even in sight, only the video car.

Mike Bryant (CP) tells (The Crew) to go in and go to work.

(The Crew) refuse.

Port Authority Police arrive and tell picketters and video car to leave as they have no permit to picket in this area.

(The Crew) still refuse to go in.

Half an hour later (The Crew) are taken by Atlas van to the other side of the airport, through an access gate where there are no pickets.

Flight departs late.


Have (The Crew) followed MEC/ALPA guidance?
Have (The Crew) behaved honorably?
Should (The Crew) have done something else?
Is it a legal picket?
What exactly is being picketted?

[MetAl]

Just some old timer perspective.

I worked for Polar. Now I don't.

The first few years, Polar made some money. Now they don't.

When the last Polar contact was negotiated, GE was the owner. Now they're not.

I've walked picket lines since the Continental strike in '83. CAL, EAL, UAL, been there. Put my signature on a contract in 1985. And paid dues since 1983.

Now, let me say, in all the strikes I've ever been a part of, the Polar strike is the most unorganized bunch of junk I've ever seen. At the CAL strike, they still let the commuters bring in and take out passengers, even though they were ALPA folks (Royale) Yea, some radical folks at CAL asked Royale to do some nasty stuff like getting into CAL planes and trashing manuals and equipment, which never happened.

One thing that never happened then, even though Frank Lorenzo was involved, CAL never ever sought out to destroy EAL. Yea, they bitched a bunch, but never targeted the EAL guys as taking away CAL work.

Now, we've got the Polar guys going directly after their brothers at Atlas, a sister company. How bizzarre, what's the goal of the PAC MEC, to realize their stated goal of shutting down AAWH altogether, and kill 900 jobs instead of their own 300 or so?

The PAC MEC has operated in the spirit of Bob Fell, mean and short sighted. While double B Bobb has said the correct words in the lead up to the current strike, the actions of his troops have belied him.

You guys at Polar are in the midst of the 30th of September, Ultimatum day as I understand the literature. If you guys want any piece of the Boeing contract, the Qatar contract, best tell Bobb to turn belly up.

900 of us can get them, 300 are a sneeze.

[CR2]

I think I should explain: We'd be happy for the revenue carrying your "struck" cargo. Brotherhood? Get real, what planet are you living on?
The european outfit I work for would fly those pallets, wouldn't even bat an eyelid. So would LH/AF/BA etc.


:rolleyes:

[blackbaron]

I am totally bewildered by some of the logic I have heard here.
This thing is playing out like a bad soap opera, but I know that every AAWH move has been calculated and thought out like a surgeon performing an operation and it definetly helps if you have friends in D.C. which is totally obvious. I dont know the resources that "NATIONAL" has given Polar but if this thing goes down in flames, ALPA will again be the butt of CEO jokes i.e. Emery, TWA. but it was set up (Polar/Atlas) to cause decension among the employees, both groups have felt they brought the "steak" to the dinner table. Atlas has been a shell of itself since Chowdry died (ie "Most Financially Fit Airline" BBJ'in around to drum up business), Polar has been a "rudderless ship" because of the failures of management in all cases (Wallace, GECAS, AAWWH)but the one thing that has happened in both cases is management has gotten rich and the crews have remained underpaid and overworked. All I can say is guys the picture that is playing out is bigger than Polar/Atlas, the fighting is all calculated, the transferring of planes, loss of jobs, baiting with A380's, crewmembers calling for the ousting of their MEC but the one thing they did not count on is the little boys and girls putting their differences aside and standing together (if only in SPIRIT!!). Whether the strategies employed by Polar against Atlas are right or wrong, it needs to end on the personal level and the "generals" need to bring solidarity back to the group ASAP!!! the guy u call a scab today could be ur sim checker tomorrow(remember there is a proposed merger after the contract is settled and then the REAL FIGHT begins:)
Polar!!! Atlas!!! in the words of a famous guy that got his ass kicked by the LAPD "CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!!!!
P.S. ALL OF YOUR JOBS ARE AT STAKE, TAKE A STEP BACK AND LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE.
Good Luck My Fellow Aviators

[grazydedog]

listen to the latest atlas vars message bvr drvr about picket lines and picketers. that is your perfect exuse not to fly and help yourself and Polar, remeber, in 18 months or so , if there is no merger, we ( there probably won't be) we at polar will do the same. again listen to your MEC vars, and don't cross any picket line regarless of were it is or how many people have.

CR2 , when your europen outfit flyes those pallets, they are being contracted by a freight forwarder the used to use Polar, therefore no money goes to polar (or aawwh). a freight forwarder has obviously every right to change vendors, just like if ups strikes you would send your cristmas gift via dhl or fedex.

[Beaver Driver]

Atlast
Isn't Kalitta ALPA - did the Polaroid take their pictures and ask them not to enter building 21? This is the problem with Polar's strike once more with feeling especially for TT who seems so intent on making this personal:

YOU ARE LAZY! YOU ARE DISORGANIZED! YOUR LEADERSHIP HAS SOLD YOU OUT! YOU HAVE PLAYED RIGHT INTO EL-CATO'S HANDS! YOU WILL NOT WALK A PROPER PICKET LINE! YOU ARE ONLY CONCENTRATING ON ATLAS PILOTS (WHO NOW ARE REQUIRED BY LAW TO FLY YOUR FREIGHT AND EVEN YOUR AIRPLANES IF AAWWH WANTS THEM TO) WHILE EVERYONE ELSE AND HIS BROTHER IS CARRYING YOUR FREIGHT!

I HAVE SAID THIS FROM THE BEGGINING - ATLAS PILOTS WILL HONOR A PROPER AND LEGAL PICKET LINE. WHAT THEY WILL NOT HONOR IS SPECIFICALLY BEING TARGETED AND HARRASSED WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE CURRENTLY DOING IN ANC.

[Intruder]

Last week's LAX-ICN flight was a reflagged PAC trip- NOT a KAL charter. I was there, you weren't, I saw a copy of the release from a buddy in ops- fomerly OUR ops. So try another one.

tt:

Give us ALL the details for this alleged GTI281! Day? Departure time? Crew names?

The ONLY LAX-ICN flight shown on the Altas schedule since 16 Sep is GTI523, 28 Sep, 0130Z, 512MC. That airplane has been flying the Korean Air ACMI route for months! Usually it goes LAX-PDX-ANC-ICN because of the amount of westbound freight; once in a while it goes direct ICN-LAX empty (or nearly so).

So, somebody MAY have tried to put together a contingency to replace a Polar flight. Show us ANY indication it ever happened!

[grazydedog]

kalitta is teamsters.again, your mec is very clear on their new vars. if you cross, you are a scab wheter you feel you are being harassed or not or wheter you think the line atcal was better organized. stop making excuses. you cross =you scab. your move chief

[Beaver Driver]

A picket line at a hotel - regardless of what ALPA is temporarily (until it goes to court) saying, IS NOT a legal picket line. Put up a legal picket line where it counts AT THE AIRPORT or at the company ops office. Whats next - are you gonna be lazy enough to just put one picketer in Washington DC and claim the whole country is picketed.

GET REAL. Get off your butts and picket the airport.... or golly did your ANC airport permits get revoked because of your picketers antics I mentioned in a post above?

BD

[grazydedog]

keep making excuses.you had an excuse when we picketed the airport and the building at ops. all the scabsi n any union history had good excuses. yours is just not the very best.

have fun crossing scabdrvr, it won't last

[miafr8r]

A picket line at a hotel - regardless of what ALPA is temporarily (until it goes to court) saying, IS NOT a legal picket line.

So, picketing the main enterance to a building is okay, so as long as the strike breakers can go around the picket line and get in through the side enterance?

Picketing the main, usually used entrance to flight operations at a given airport is okay, as long as the cheif pilot can sneak you in through the other side of the airport so you can scab the freight?

Having 10,000 picketers holding hands, completely surrounding an airport is okay, as long as a helicopter can fly you in over the picket so you can scab freight?

That is okay with you?

I sure wish I could see the look on your face when this happens to you my friend......

[Captain Airclues]

If an airline suffers a strike then the passengers are rebooked onto other carriers who are usually happy to accept the extra revenue. The stuck freight does not belong to Polar, it belongs to the shippers and their clients. All the shipper has to do is to claim back the pallets, repack them, and send them with someone else. There are plenty of carriers with spare capacity to do this, and within a few days there will be no such thing as 'Polar' freight.
The Polar pilots have chosen the wrong time to make a stand. I wish you well, but please don't try to destroy the lives of the Atlas pilots who are trying to earn a living in difficult times.

Airclues

[joetommy]

BEAVER DRIVER

What is a legal picket line?

Please give a reference.

[Beaver Driver]

Websters Collegiate Dictionary defines a picket line is "A person posted by a labor organization at a place of work affected by a strike" also "to enclose fence or fortify with pickets." A legal picket line would be one that the organization actually had a permit for.

The mob in ANC was NOT picketing Polar. They were outside the Marriot Hotel picketing individual Atlas Pilots. The police were called at least once due to their behaviour. They were not professional and they only succeeded in lowering the publics opinion of our profession. I was really sorry to see some brown suits there too -more victims of Bobbbbs lies, miscommunication, and inept chairmanship.

[Fr8Dog]

Latest word as of 7 this morning is that the Polar MEC and the company are “close” to a deal. So much for the Polar guys holding out for the big $$. Guess 10 ½ % of something is better than 100% of nothing. I’m glad you “highly educated” boys and girls have finally figured it out.:ok:

[flite idol]

Mr Dog, I dont` think the 10 1/2% was the only issue and until the details of any new proposal are released, smartmouthing is somewhat premature. GOOD LUCK TO ALL AT PO!

[miafr8r]

Websters Collegiate Dictionary defines a picket line is "A person posted by a labor organization at a place of work affected by a strike"

BD,

Who's paying for the hotel? You?

Are you paid per deim when you're at your LAYOVER hotel?

When at your LAYOVER hotel, are you ever contacted by the company and if so, are you required to then contact them?

Do you perform company related business at your LAYOVER hotel, such as getting crew rest and so on?

Sounds like a place of work to me......

Maybe you should peel off the BLACKOUT tape from the inside of your crew van as you're being driven though a LEGAL PICKET LINE so you can see what the real world is like...

The stuck freight does not belong to Polar

Airclues,

If it has a Polar sticker, Polar airway code on it or if Polar gets a cut from the revenue it sure is....

You're kinda new at this freight stuff, aint ya?

Sure your name isnt "Airclueless ?

please don't try to destroy the lives of the Atlas pilots who are trying to earn a living in difficult times.

The only reason ATLAS PILOTS in difficult times is because they allowed Cato to bend them over, he then proceeded to stuff them like a Christmas turkey because they didnt have the leadership, solidarity or guts to take a stand when their contact was in the playpen!

Difficult times?! Last quarter a $15 million dollar PROFIT was had by AAWW. Oh but I guess the profit was made by Polar since Atlas in difficult times .

Kinda irritating when the shoes on the other foot isnt it?

[WhaleDriver]

Let's just cut the BS. PO MEC didn't give a hoot about struck cargo. They just wanted to hurt AAWH.

Day one of the strike, Polar CM had accomplished what they wanted, Polar shut down. No Polar planes, no Polar cargo. Yes, there was cargo that Polar MAY have hauled, depending on the freight forwarder. Just like all the passenger carriers fly the struck carriers passengers.

So with Polar shut down, AAWH didn't shut down after seven days, like Polariods hoped. Next step, get Atlas to VIOLATE their contract and do an illegal job action. That didn't work, company found ways around Polars pickets. Why, because pickets were designed for FIXED locations of work. Factories, office buildings, ect. Not entire airports. Northwest pilots walk by ther mechanics pickets all day, no Scabs because they are not supporting the mechanics. Atlas was flying Atlas's planes...simple. If any names that were involed in your roving road rage pickets make a list, ALPA is lost to studitity.

Note thru this, no pickets of Northwest, FedEX, Kallita, or Southern. Hell, UPS pilots stay at the Marriott. No hassle for them. All flying cargo out of ICN, HKG, NRT, and PVG. All Polar ports. Polar didn't care. Why, because they had to hurt AAWH, period.

So admit it, stuck cargo was just an excuse. AAWH was the target and you had to make Atlas an issue or you were toast.

[zerozero]

If a pilot crosses a picket line at a hotel to become a scab whose job has he stolen? The maid's?

Give me a break.

If a pilot crosses a picket line to fly his own empty airplane from JFK to DOV whose job has he stolen?

Struck freight? The judge ordered Atlas pilots to fly the airplanes and abolished the struck work rules.

It was virtually impossible for any Atlas pilot to commit any transgression unless he walked over and fired up a Polar 747.

Give me break. This is the most absurd work action I've ever seen.

[turrbntrip]

Ahh, give it a rest, BD. You're gonna pop an artery and lose your medical. What a loss to our profession that would be.

Your hysterical screaming in caps betrays your lack of confidence in your non-position- the mark of a sad, desperate person.

Like your earlier lies about the financial viability of Polar, your pathetic 'Webster's Defense' of sneaking past our picket lines (we were again successful last night at LAX, BTW-thanks in no small part to the gutsy pilots at GTI that support us, along with the fact J an J were too cheap to spring for a chopper or blimp) merely proves to us all what a tool and mouthpiece of JC you are.

Our guys and gals have been pounding the pavement in all sorts of weather, in defiance of J an J and those that do their bidding, in 100% unity every night. So your sneering accusations of 'laziness' and 'incompetence' again show you to be the pathological liar and AAWH office tool that you are.

Why not just accept the inevitable, and go to work in said office? You can be in charge of the JJ AAWH Propaganda Division. You won't need a medical for that, either. BeaverDriverGoebbels. Catchy!

But more than likely you'll continue to fly the line- after all, if we're successful, you can enjoy the fruits of what gutsy PAC and GTI pilots that supported us bring to your next contract. Maybe you'll be home more than 8 days a month, even.

Grow a pair, 'mate'.

TT

[turrbntrip]

Oh, and WhaleDriver,

If you had to 'Cut the BS', you and your ilk wouldn't be able to post here.

[Captain Airclues]

miafr8r

You lose a certain credibility by being rude. I do not, and have never, worked for Atlas. As an outsider, I am concerned that the Polar pilots are not ony ruining their own lives but are trying to drag another group down with them.
Regarding the stuck freight, I was only trying to point out what is actually happening behind your backs, while you sit at your computer hurling vitriol.

You're kinda new to this freight stuff aint ya?
I first flew a 747 Freighter (G-KILO, LHR-JFK) on May 17th 1981, so kinda new yes.

Airclues

[joetommy]

BEAVER DRIVER

Thanks for the legal picket line definition. I'll consult Webster for all legal matters in the future.

[miafr8r]

"Captain" Airclues,

You lose a certain credibility by being rude.

You sir, lose much more credibility when you dont know what you're talking about, but profess to.

For someone who never worked at Atlas, you sure sound quite protective of them. Is it the cool paint job?

With Atlas having a base in Stanstead, you should be quite offended by them flying YOUR freight for far less money than you earn... Doesnt that bug you that a U.S. airline has crews and aircraft based in Europe?

I suspect you do not and never have worked for a U.S. Part 121 carrier. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm mistaken. If I am, I sincerely apologize.

Having said that, my question to you is how you have a CLUE as to how the RLA (Oh, that's the "Railway Labor Act", it's the rule book on how airline labor contracts are negotiated) works?

The "Struck Freight Rules" were ratified by ALPA and it is a legal document. It was set aside TEMPOARILY by a judge until both labor and management can file breifs arguing the validity of them. That will be heard by a judge on October, 5.

A picket line is considered legal and valid after it is recognized by ALPA and proper permits from local government have been secured.

Hotels are being picketed because, although training locations and airport operation centers are picketed and are considered struck, Atlas pilots are allowing themselves to be taken AROUND the area(s) we have permits for picketing and are still accessing the picketed locations. Their spines have taken on a jelly-like texture. But their SCABING over quite nicely...

WhaleDriver,

Atlas actually IS moving polar freight. A picture says a thousands words....

[Captain Airclues]

miafr8r

You are correct when you say that I don't understand US labor laws, as I have only ever flown G reg aircraft and therefore have no need to. I have also got no reason to be protective of the Atlas pilots. I simply feel that you have chosen a difficult time to pick this fight and should not try to drag another group of fellow aviators down with you, whoever they might be. I'm sure that you disagree and you have every right to do so.
Regarding the stuck freight, I once again do not know the US laws. However, what I do know for a fact is that the 'Polar' freight is being repackaged by various shippers and sent with other carriers (not necessarily Atlas).
I wish you, and your families, well. However, with escalating fuel prices, several airlines in trouble, and pilots being laid off, this is not a good time to be on strike.

Airclues

[Wino]

Airclues,

However, what I do know for a fact is that the 'Polar' freight is being repackaged by various shippers and sent with other carriers (not necessarily Atlas).

Thats exactly what the strikers WANT to happen. DUH! you want Polar to be economically squeezed so that they will go back to the negotiating table. That is the WHOLE POINT OF THE PICKET. Good, let the freight go on Northwest or FEDEX or UPS (when they can get around to it, and if it doesn't happen to get "lost" in a warehouse somewhere) The point of a strike is to attemt to squeeze the company you are striking, not to let them to continue going about their business making money in hopes that someone in the board room will feel bad about the poor people on the picket line.

And your excuse "now is not the time." is the same tried and true excuse used by every spineless person who doesn't want to make a stand.

Well guess what, there is never a "GOOD" time to have a strike. They are awfull things that sometimes have to be done. A strike is the union equivelent of a WAR!. Well, guess what there is never a good time to have a war either, but sometimes it has to be done.

Cheers
Wino

[Captain Airclues]

Wino

I'm getting a little confused (nothing new!). If the Polar strikers didn't mind if their freight was moved then why did Heilhaavir write on 9/18, "The only support we have asked for is not to fly "struck" freight, and so far Fedex, NWA, UAL, Kittyhawk, and Gemini have agreed to it (Atlas as well)"? Why did the union go to court to try to prevent the stuck freight from being moved? If the arguement is only against Polar management, then why are the strikers actively picketing Atlas crews? These are honest questions to which I would appreciate a logical answer. I have absolutely nothing to gain or lose from this sad dispute.
Just like when you go to war, not only do you have to ensure that there is a good chance of victory but you have to make sure that there is something left at the end. I have met many Polar crews downroute and they are great people, but I fear that there might be hard times ahead. I'm not sure whether that is being spineless or realistic.

Airclues

[miafr8r]

Airclues,

If the arguement is only against Polar management, then why are the strikers actively picketing Atlas crews?

For the same reason a NWA, FedEX, AA or any other unionized carrier wont cross a another carriers picket line. Exept for NWA pilots and the mechanics, but that another topic.

The reason is to put pressure on the company in any way possible so as to get both parties to the table and negotiate.

In any labor/ management relationship, management always has the upper hand. They have far more financial resources than labor has. Management has more and better paid lawyers to create obstactles for labor when it comes to contract negotiations.

Labor's only recourse is to strike when there's an inpass in negotiations. Labor wants too much compensation (according to management) and management wants more work for less pay from labor (according to labor). The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Some management groups work well with labor (Southwest Airlines). The employees are well compensated and the company still makes a sizable profit.

Other companies treat their employees like the enemy, thus strife between labor and management occurs.

AAWW has spent, wasted and lost more revenue in the past two weeks than if they gave Polar crews everything they wanted and more.

As far as timing goes, there couldnt be a better time for a strike! The busy shipping season is starting and some airlines operate in the red till the last three months of the year. AAWW also posted a $15,000,000.00 profit last quarter while other carriers cant stop bleeding money.

There's my quick and dirty lesson in U.S. airline labor relations. I hope I answered your question.

[411A]

My guess would be that Atlas Worldwide management is playing the Polar guys (and ALPO) with just the same violin that 'ole Bud Maytag used so successfully at National Airlines so many years ago.

ALPO never really did get the upper had there, and it ain't likely now to get it either.

Some guys need to learn the sad facts all over again, it appears.

Having said this, some never learn.:ugh: :ugh:

[mrsofty]

I heard that the MEC and management were close to signing a deal, anybody know whats happening?

[XL5]

Airclues

A piece of freight is to be moved by Polar, it has a Polar airbill and Polar will gain commercially from its transport - only they can't get the job done because their crews are on strike. Polar can try to ship this freight on a different carrier- say FedEx, but it's struck goods and stays that way so long as its carriage results in remuneration for Polar. A unionised carrier will not take this freight so long as it has a Polar airbill.

The customer of course is free to drop Polar and take the freight directly to FedEx for shipment. Polar has now been deprived of commercial gain so the freight is no longer classified as struck goods and will ship on the FedEx system.

The customer gets the freight moved, FedEx gets paid for it and Polar loses all commercial gain from the transaction.

The picket line issue is a little more ambiguous. Polar/Atlas have an incestuous relationship due to having the same holding company. Should the freight fly on Atlas the same coffers are ultimately credited as would be the case if it had flown on Polar as originally scheduled, hence the enthusiasm for Polar's striking aircrew to target Atlas aircrew with picket line action. Both being represented by the same union, ALPA, in theory results in recognition of the picket line and legal protection for personnel not crossing it. Recognition of the picket line by other ALPA carriers can result in various actions to express support, never enough though to please those setting the line up in the first place.

That is the theory. Lawyers and judges get involved along with parochial politics, personal ambition and taking advantage of opportunity. It is a dirty confused business and there will be many unhappy campers bearing grudges over a myriad of issues for years to come.

[Captain Airclues]

miafr8r and XL5

Many thanks for the replies. It's all becoming clearer.

Airclues

[Intruder]

A piece of freight is to be moved by Polar, it has a Polar airbill and Polar will gain commercially from its transport - only they can't get the job done because their crews are on strike. Polar can try to ship this freight on a different carrier- say FedEx, but it's struck goods and stays that way so long as its carriage results in remuneration for Polar.

One problem with your scenario...

Since Polar provides "scheduled service," and their direct customers are primarily freight forwarders, it is likely there has been NO 'Polar freight' since day 1 or 2 of the strike. The customer -- the freight forwarder -- merely finds another carrier to carry the frieght that belongs to the customer (NOT to Polar). The freight is never consigned to Polar, so there is NO struck freight to be carried!

Even in the case where a forwarder charters a flight from Atlas to go from NRT, the freight (which MIGHT HAVE been consigned to Polar if they were flying) is never consigned to Polar, so AAWH can accurately state that there is 'no Polar freight' and 'no Polar flight.' You may not like it, but that would be the reality.

[blackbaron]

Heard a TA has been reached

[grazydedog]

if you didn't like this job action you are really going to hate it when atlas strikes... or better yet, when the combine work forces do it...now that will be fun

[Willit Run]

Press Release Source: Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc.


Polar Air Cargo and the Air Line Pilots Association Reach Tentative Agreement for a New Contract
Sunday October 2, 9:37 pm ET


PURCHASE, N.Y.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Oct. 2, 2005--Polar Air Cargo, Inc. (Polar), a subsidiary of Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc. (AAWW) (OTC: AAWW.PK - News), and the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), the collective bargaining representative of the Crewmembers employed by Polar, have reached a tentative agreement on a new contract ending a two- week-old strike by the Polar Crewmembers.
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The parties began negotiations in 2003 for an amended collective bargaining agreement. Since July of 2003, the negotiations have been under the direction of a mediator appointed by the National Mediation Board (NMB). On August 16, the NMB released the parties into the 30-day cooling off period mandated by the Railway Labor Act before either party can implement economic self-help. On September 16, 2005, when last efforts by the parties did not result in an agreement, the Polar Crewmembers went on strike.

"I am very pleased that we have reached a settlement in this matter," said Jeffrey H. Erickson, President and Chief Executive Officer of AAWW. "We can now focus our energies on the upcoming peak shipping season and continued extensive work for the military."

Jim Cato, Vice President of Flight Operations and Labor Relations, added, "We thank the professionalism of the ALPA leadership in reaching this agreement and look forward to working with the Association to complete the merger of the two crew forces."

The tentative agreement is now subject to ratification by the rank and file of Polar's Crewmembers, which is expected to be completed by Wednesday, October 5.

[miafr8r]

Hey Mr. Goodbyepolar,

You said:
Yes, there is a T/A. After all the acrimony these guys generated, they ended up agreeing to what was on the table before the strike. 10.5% and an 18 month extension.

Actually, we got a bit (not much though) more than the 9/16 offer, including one more airframe than previously promised.

The MEC also agreed not to go after the despicable SCABS who crossed Polar legal picket lines. However, oh hell I'll save that one for later, AFTER the TA is ratified....

I promise you'll like it!..... or not

[MetAl]

Actually, we got a bit (not much though) more than the 9/16 offer, including one more airframe than previously promised.

Let's see, some 401(K) money, that's all the extra I see from the Sept 16 offer.

Oh, and maybe the possibility of having Turkee instead of boiled eggs for Thanksgiving.

Do you really think ratification is guaranteed? Bobb has a lot of backtracking to do if he's gonna sell this TA in 3 days.

[WhaleDriver]

They also got an extra month of the back pay raise, June vs July.

None of us knows what was on the table when they walked into the room on Friday. Could have been a lot less than the 9/16 offer.

The MEC vote of two for and one against may spell trouble.

After a two week strike, Polariods may not be interested in a 10.5% raise, since they could have had that without the strike.

Polaroids...note that Atlas had a T/A voted down and AAWH sweetened the deal to get it by. When the second T/A was in trouble, AAWH sweetened it again.

[MetAl]

All in all, for what they got they sure risked a bunch by going on strike. Was it worth it?

Methinks there's a future for Bobb in FEMA or rebuilding Iraq.

[printup]

Here's my take:

Some might see the 4% bonus, when added to the 10.5% raise, as equivalent to a 14.5% raise. Okay, I'll concede that some might consider 14.5% a good raise. I wouldn't, but that's not the point. The catch is that the 4% is just a one-time deal. I, for one, do not like the idea of taking a 14.5% raise only to have the company take back 4% next year and be right back at Cato's crappy 10.5% in perpetuity. If we merge, the corresponding raise and when we get it is indefinite. If we don't merge, 10.5% is all we have until we negotiate another contract. We've all seen how smoothly that goes. I'm not satisfied with a 10.5% raise and being stuck with it for the next 5 years. I didn't just spend the last 2 weeks picketing in LAX, ANC and FAI only to approve a TA that is only slightly better than what the Company offered at the beginning of the cooling off period. We initially made HUGE concessions to avert a strike and they hardly budged. That was to AVERT a strike. Now that we've been at it for 2 weeks the price tag should go up. Let's get what we deserve now.

Three and a half months of retroactive pay adds up to 227.5 hours. The difference in pay (old scale vs. add'l 10.5%) for a 1-yr. FO/PFE is $5.94/hr. That FO/PFE gets a "signing bonus" of $1351.35, before taxes. A 10-yr. Captain's difference is $13.93/hr. His "signing bonus" is $3169.08, before taxes. Bonuses like this are annualized and taxed accordingly so you can safely count on getting only about half of it in your check. That results in checks for about $675 and $1600, respectively, for the two examples above. Sorry if I'm not getting too excited.

The 401(k) isn't bad but it isn't great, either. As it stands, the company matches 100% of your contribution, up to 2% of your gross pay. The new deal matches 50% of your contribution, up to 10% of your gross pay. In other words, 5%. The catch is this: If you currently just contribute 2% to get the company's match, now you'll have to put in 4% to get the same amount out of them. You want to maximize the company's match? You have to put in the full 10% to get their 5% match / 3% increase. There goes your big, fat 10.5% raise.

We've already come this far, and we've been extremely effective, so why put our tails between our legs and crawl for cover? So many things are working in our favor. Contrary to some opinions, I believe that we did stop a lot of freight. We're getting even deeper into the busy season. The clock is ticking on the Narita slots. Capacity in Asia is hugely affected. Fuel surcharges are catching up with fuel costs. The Company simply can not afford to have us strike much longer. If we vote down this TA we won't necessarily even have to go back to picketing. Maybe we would, maybe not. Even now, Cato thinks that we're a bunch of 'kitties' and that we don't have the resolve to fight for more than he's offering. But in the end they really do have much more to lose than we do.

The one positive thing that I can say about this TA is that it proves that the company's threats of selling the certificate, terminating and furloughing crewmembers, transferring aircraft, etc. are empty and meaningless. It was all bluffs. We will never have another opportunity to do this again. If we're going to do this, we have to do it now. It was all true 2 weeks ago before we went on strike. It is a proven fact. We have shown our unity and our demonstrated our resolve, now let's take our just reward.

We all want to get back to what we love. None of us wants to go back out on the picket lines. But now that the uncertainty is gone let's do what we came here for and take what is rightfully ours!

One crewmember recently suggested putting Cato's crappy 10.5% offer up to vote. Some opposed the idea, others encouraged it. Well, guys and girls, here it is. Any question on which way I'm voting?

[Fr8Dog]

Go Printup!! The first post that I agree with for the last 2 weeks.
You have them now, don't cave in.

[miafr8r]

WhaleDriver,

You said:
Polaroids...note that Atlas had a T/A voted down and AAWH sweetened the deal to get it by. When the second T/A was in trouble, AAWH sweetened it again.

If understand you correctly, you can be extended up to 23 days, no overtime pay until you break garruntee in hard flight time regardless of how many days you worked, you get 1/3 deadhead pay credit instead 1/2 like everyone else, scheduling can move a portion of your days around without your consent and your taxed to death on gateway basing....

I dont mean to be rude but WHERE is the SWEETENED part?

Dont get me wrong, I'm NOT doing handsprings over this TA, and I'm not sure I'll vote for it.

I defintely wont vote for it until the SCAB list gets published. The MEC may not be able to instigate punishment, but no one said the membership cant.

Call me old fashioned, but that means a lot to me...

[grazydedog]

the letter says POLAR MEC can not initiate any actions agains those on the scab list, however the list is there, we, the membership can initiate any action. we, the membership,can receive guidance from our MEC to have National add those scabs on the master scab list. we , the membership, can publish those names and give them to all othe MEC airlines. it only states that the MEC ca not do that. we , the membership, will make sure those names are made public.

[Fr8Dog]

Miafr8r, Go for it! Let us hear how you really feel about it and don’t hold back this time. Me thinks you should heat up the tar pot and get some feathers, or better yet, an old fashioned lynching might be in order.

grazydedog that goes for you as well

[miafr8r]

Fr8Dog, regarding your well thought out post:

Miafr8r, Go for it! Let us hear how you really feel about it and don’t hold back this time. Me thinks you should heat up the tar pot and get some feathers, or better yet, an old fashioned lynching might be in order.

You are either a wannabe, or and Atlas pilot....

Easy to "stir the pot" from the comfort of your lazyboy.

If you actually fly for a living and are an ALPA member, you should've carried one of our picket signs. Other carriers did...

Maybe then would you sound less child-like and more like a responsible adult who actually has a clue.

When you get old enough to start shaving, go electric. You'll cut your baby fine skin with a blade.

[Captain Airclues]

Could somebody please explain to an ignorant limey what a 'TA' is?

Airclues

[Fr8Dog]

TA = tentative agreement

[goatherder]

Anyone having any information or PICTURES of Polar Air pilots harassing Atlas pilots please forward them to:

Timothy M. Burgess
U.S. Attorney
Federal Building and
U.S. Courthouse
222 West 7th Ave, Rm 253, #9
Anchorage, Alaska 99513
(907) 271-5071

[grazydedog]

the only photos are the ones of the atlas crews that scab. the list has been completed. tomorrow evening , after the TA is ratified, they will begin investigating each case. after that, the list will be made public for any polar and /or/ atlas crewmember to file a grievance against those scabs. after that there will be an arbitration hearing( it has nothing to do with the hearings on normal company matters and will happen fast), and those guys who did cross the picket lines in spite of their mec asking them not to will be expelled from alpa. then they will be added to the master scab list, and finally, since both polar and atlas are closed shops, the company will ask those non union members fro their resignation.

have fun working at CAT in about 6 months scabs:D

[Intruder]

I suspected grazydedog was full of BS, and that post confirms it. NO airline in the US is a "closed shop"!

So, now we can expect that the rest of his spew is no more than total BS as well. :yuk:

[miafr8r]

Oh Goatherder....
Anyone having any information or PICTURES of Polar Air pilots harassing Atlas pilots please

Oh please, you're just trying to cover your rear end. That's quite surprising considering you've given Cato easy access to it for the past several years!

I guess it's pretty easy when you dont have a spine....

[Heilhaavir]

<< It looks like many of your fellow crewmembers are going to vote against the T/A, so you will all be unemployed on Wednesday after ratification fails.>> Really goodbyepolar? And n what makes you think that? Please explain :E

[Fr8Dog]

Started to post, but then I thought why waste my time. I have never seen such a bunch of cry babys that are supposed to be grown men in my life.

My :mad: hurts

[grazydedog]

intruder, a lot of airlines in the US are closed shops, Polar is one of them , read our contract.

goddbyepolar, you are an idiot. fair representation does mean that the union has to represent all non union members, but in closed shops it gets a bit more tricky. when someone gets expelled from the union ( for whatever reasons) the union leadership will ask the airline for that person (S) resignation.
when it comes to the scabs .....well. .. sadly for you and the other scabs , there is plenty of evidence, and like I said before, there is a list. Alpa national is, this time for a change, 100% behind the punisment of the scabs . but you will have your day in court with the arbitrator and can explain yourself to him, not me.
the TA will pass.
you are such a moron goodbyepolar

:ok: :D

[MetAl]

GoodbyPolar, you're almost right.

A Closed Shop is 100% union.

An Agency Shop allows non union workers, who pay a service fee to the union.

And yes, in an agency shop, the union is still obligated to represent a non union member.

I'm pretty sure that Atlas is an Agency Shop, and will not force any resignations.

[grazydedog]

we'll have to wait until the merge contract then.

you sure got that posted fast clown... are you scared????:D

:ok: :p

[grazydedog]

I just wanted to make your ( and the other scabs) blood pressure rise. i'm here having a beer and a good laugh at your expense

PS You really type fat man, maybe you could get a job as a secretary since they probably don't mnd scabs:D :D :D :D

[Intruder]

intruder, a lot of airlines in the US are closed shops, Polar is one of them , read our contract.

Polar is NOT a closed shop! I did read your contract.

Still nothing but unsupportable BS... :yuk:

[Heilhaavir]

<<Didn't you participate in the conference call? I guess the few guys who want the T/A to pass were afraid to speak up.>>

Well we must not have listened to the same ones honeybun. I listened to all three while laying by the pool and really didn't get the impression it would be voted down. Then again could be wishful thinking for you, must be awful to think that PO could get all airplanes back....... Did you start upgrading guys/girls already? I would've waited a bit. Check back with me tomorrow ;)
In the mean time sweat dreams.

[miafr8r]

GoodbyePolar,

Why in the world do you have so much hatred for an airline that saved your job and helped take an important requirement OUT of your "no strike clause" when your contract was in the playpen? By the way if that requirement remained in, you'd be the first unionized airline who'd have a "please let me scab" section in their contract.

Friend, I hear a cry for help hear!

[Fr8Dog]

miafr8r, You say you saved the Atlas guys job? From the story I hear, you stuck it to them 3 times. First, you all took the 3 ½ % raise and a 6 month extension on your contract instead of getting behind the Atlas pilots and trying for a better contract for BOTH carriers. Then in the final hours before the Atlas pilots were to go on strike, your MEC calls the Atlas MEC to re-negotiate the struck work rules and how many Atlas tails Polar pilots would fly. Then you all file a grievance over South America routes that were Atlas routes to begin with. But you and your illiterate buddy grazydedog think that the Atlas pilots should have stood behind you all 100%. Hey :mad: heads, what comes around goes around.

[miafr8r]

Fr8Dog, you are sorely misinformed.

When ACMI business was in the tank several years ago, Atlas jobs were saved when AAWW shifted a percentage Polar scheduled service, Military and Charter flying to Atlas through an alliance agreement. That actually increased hiring at Atlas and stunted the growth of Polar. That my friend is a fact. As ACMI business started to pick up, they also kept the flying taken away from Polar. Polar has only hired for attrition. For several years before the strike Atlas has been flying Polar callsigns. At any given time Atlas operates 3 to 4 aircraft for Polar.

Regarding S. America, within several months after our purchase by AAWW, MANAGEMENT transfered Polar's slots to the Atlas certificate, WITHOUT DOING THEIR HOMEWORK . The D.O.T. promptly pulled those improperly transfered slots and put them back into the hopper for open bid.

Atlas struck work rules? You should have seen them BEFORE we got involved. AAWW wanted those boys and girls to sign a "no strike LOA", to be attached to their contract, that would prevent them from honoring ANY picket line whatsoever. In private chats with our MEC, the Atlas MEC stated "yea, we'll sign it but when we're faced with crossing a Polar picket line, we'll just say "we fear for our safety"". The Polar MEC wasnt comfortable with that (This strike case and point), so he drafted a letter to the Atlas MEC stating "Polar Pilots will not harm or endanger the safety of Atlas pilots who cross a Polar picket line". AAWW realized that can of worms wasnt worth opening so thay modified their "no strike clause".

All Atlas piolts had to do was to "honor a legal picket line". Had AAWW contracted FedEx to fly a trip leaving out of the Polar ramp, would THEY have crossed the picket line, sat in a blacked out vans, sneaked around, laid down in the back seats, or flipped the picketers the middle fingure?

The Atlas MEC withdrew promised support (both before and after the TRO and follow up hearing), failed to give direction to his folks at critical times and a percentage of the rank and file of Atlas pilots just blatantly SCABBED.

Golly, I hoped I answered your questions?!
Maybe the next time you want to get vulgal (I know, it's because youre ignorant), please get your facts straight first.

Do you really fly for a living? You come accross rather young and uneducated.

[GreatLegs]

To the Sydney Polar picketers
I am sorry to have to write to you in this anonymous way as I do not know your contact details perhaps your colleges will be kind enough to forward this to you
In your dispute with Polar Air Cargo I have seen your picketing action at YSSY and I understand its intended use in this dispute. Without getting into the legalities of the picket and from a Labor perspective I am disappointed that certain people who contract to Polar and Atlas at the airport in the ground handling area seem to have gone out of their way to actively seek to bypass your picket line even though they have nothing to gain by doing so.
Under the poor Labor environment current in Australia at this time there is little that can be done to these people other than to make a mental note of their selfishness, those who know of their actions have certainly lost any trust in them and will not forget

Make your own enquires but trust no one as your comments will certainly only be enhanced in their eagerness to report to your management

I wish you well in your negotiations and only hope it severs to set an example to the lost airline Labor movement in Australia

[MetAl]

grazydedog, I've got to as you, in all seriousness, have you even read the TA?

I ask because of all your talk of retaliation against pilots you beleive to have crossed picket lines.

The Return to Work Agreement has a No Retaliation section that prohibits retaliation by Polar against any pilot who struck, and fruther prohibits any retaliation by the PAC MEC against any Atlas pilot for any work that may have occured during the strike.

Specifically, Section G, 2:

The Polar MEC pledges that it will not instigate any discipline, harassment, retaliation, recrimination or reprisals against any Atlas Air Crewmember as a result of any work the Atlas Air Crewmember may have performed for Atlas Air, Inc. during the strike.

Now, if you really want to retaliate against the Atlas pilots, you'll have to vote against accecpting the TA. However, if you vote for it, you're prohibited from taking any action. Quite the quandry, huh?

[grazydedog]

yes metal, the polar mec cannot initiate any actions, but the individual crewmember can.

normally, the mec will take the steps, but in this case, the scab list ( once every case has been verified ) will be made public andany polar crewmwmber can file a grievance against those strike breakers and alpa will held an arbitration hearing. it was explained on each one of the conferences by alpa legal.

[WhaleDriver]

MIAfr8tr,

Again, you only respond to questions you chose to with MISINFORMATION. Kinda like Polar strikers passing out BS during the strike. Crap like in LAX, and the TRO being overturned. A fact. The S. American routes were being flown by Atlas with GTI call signs, with GTI rights, long before Polar was bought for less than the cost of a good -200 freighter. A fact.

Second, no response to the six month extension/pay raise that put Polar clear of Atlas's negotiations....

Third, the actions of BF in the last hours of Atlas's negotiations. The AAWH negotiator drops the news that the Polar MEC has agreed to fly Atlas planes in spite of the agreed upon struck work rules. The Polar MEC Chair can't be found for almost an hour because he's at a picnic in ANC. This while his sister company was within two hours of release. Where was the entire Atlas MEC at the same time for Polar? In Herndon, helping finalize a strike center. Polar's current MEC is so upset with BF's actions, they put him in charge of the merger committee, and goon patrol in ANC.

Fourth, while everyone else in the free world was hauling Polars freight, the only people Polar takes pictures of and harass's are the only people that can really help them. For the most part, they DID help you. Yes, there was confusion and some mistakes. Now you threaten them with more grief.

As for the Polar CM's, 95% are good people, and great pilots and FE's. Just like at Atlas. If merged, we will get thru this and fly the planes safely, and in the long run, learn from each other. The bad news is, the history needs to be dealt with. Polar has the recent history, Atlas has the past and recent history to whine about.

I'll trade you my past and recent grief with Polar with your recent grief with Atlas? We both agree that neither airline would be worth as much without the other. Deal.....?

As for GD, he knows less about the Atlas contract than his own. I make over $800 a day, over guarantee, on my first two off days worked, more beyond that, up to four max, plus what's flown. Max....21, not 23. Agreed, not very good. There's more that GD missed, but, Nuff said.....

[grazydedog]

whaledriver, as I said before, I beieve most of the atlas cews follow the poor diretions of their mec. they have nothing to worry about. their mec puts a vars on how to conduct yourself, you follow it, you are clear ( legally but not morally). however , some ( very few I believed) did cross picket lines when instructed not to do so by the mec. that is a fact, they scab and should be treated as such.

i believe there will be a merge and we should all put everything behind us and work together agains this antilabor management team. we have learn from our-your mistakesand they won'thappen again.

i will be perfectly content if after this is over with, no ones talks about it again except to point out what not to do on our next battle.

I believe both out CBA 's are subpar but we will get our chance to improve in 3 years or less.

as to who save who and who is prettier......it is over, it is done it has been overdebated.

i'm moving on to prepere for the next battle, hopefully with a 100% united pilot group almost 1,000 strong.

good day.

[Fr8Dog]

miafr8r, The one who is misinformed is you my friend. But I have the feeling after reading your previous posts that no matter what I say you will contradict it. Hell if I tell you the sky is blue you will probably say it’s green.

[miafr8r]

Sorry if I clouded the issues with facts.

Regarding the six month extension. Do you REALLY think that six extention had any affect on Atlas? Look at when we reached our 30 cooling off. Okay, back that off six months and where does that leave us? Your CBA would have still been in place for a couple of years? Do suggest we pulled an illegal job action? Atlas folks wouldnt even enforce a legal job action!

About our MEC at a piniic during your final hours? I dont know, I wasnt there, but to think Polar pilots would cross a picket line? Well, you drank too much Cato koolaid to believe that one.

By the way, how can you deem an ACMI contract as "struck"?

Dont get mad, I'm just asking...

If you had a picket line in front of ops, it would be honored regardless of what was in the airplane. A point many Atlas crews failed miserably at seeing.

And at times the sky is blue!

[Ct.Yankee]

:hmm: you've got to be kidding!
two weeks, (big deal, try six months
on the picket line and unemployment benefits) and then you're willing to vote for a
poorer offer than the original.
way to go polar mec!
you really showed cato!

[Fr8Dog]

You tell um Rodger

[Beaver Driver]

Hey Goatherder,
Do you want the full video, just the one where the idiots are kicking in the sides of the ACS van, or just the stills? If you want the stills I will have to edit out the cross hairs so it might take a while.

[miafr8r]

.The TA has been ratified.

It was approved by nearly 75%.

Beaver Driver,

If you want the stills I will have to edit out the cross hairs so it might take a while.

So, you were considering committing a capitol crime over this labor action?

Perhaps your email should be forwarded to the attorney in AK.

Speaks volumes of your character...

[Beaver Driver]

LOL - you have the temerity to question my character?

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Just taken thru a spotting scope - best way to get really close up shots of faces from a distance.

Are you really that nervous about your actions?

Well this was a REALLY stupid strike. What did it get the 'roids - less than Cato's final offer and now you will have to ride in the same cockpit as those Atlas pilots you think are scabs. Oh what fun!

[grazydedog]

we did't leave the pfe's or probatiorary member's behind,we got a 10.5% raise , a 5% contribution on the 401k,and a 4% payout next year. no change to work rules. all airplanes back.
perfect? no.
could we have gotten more? maybe
better than cato's false initial 10.5% with strings attached? yes
better than cato's last offer on the 16?yes
better than cato's offer on the 30? yes

we have learned a lot and we will not do to you as you did to us. you will not find one single polar pilot crossing your atlas lines if and when it comes to that.

good luck on you next contract negotiations.

[Fr8Dog]

I knew you Polar boys had no balls! You guys talked the talk really good but walk the walk? Took the money and ran just like last time.

[grazydedog]

we actually did walk. we walked picked lines and you scab right pass them.
you boys at atlas did not even have the balls to walk out last time.
we walked even after your weak MEC did not offer the support they had promised and after you atlas guys ( not all of them) scab.

[miafr8r]

beaverdriver and fr8dog,

Both of you are quite amusing!

Tell the truth, did you two steal your father(s) password(s) to get on this site?

If infact you do work for an airline, see your Chief Pilot and get a physc eval. You two are losing it...

If you SCABBED our picket line, you have good reason to be defensive and stressed out. Your career(s) will be changed forever.

Yea, I know. I expect to hear more banter, threats, insults and more child like behavior from you and your fellow SCABS and SCAB wannabe's.

[Fr8Dog]

miaf8r, you still refuse to address the 3 1/2% raise and the 6 month extension the Polar pilots took instead of getting on the "UNION BANDWAGON" The last minute change of mind of your then MEC about struck work and how many Atlas tails you
"BIG UNION CLOSED SHOP" guys would fly. And last but not least,
Filing of the grievance to have Atlas stop flying "POLAR" routes that were Atlas routes to begin with. Seems you have a very selective memory.

[miafr8r]

miaf8r, you still refuse to address the 3 1/2% raise and the 6 month extension the Polar pilots took instead of getting on the "UNION BANDWAGON"

Okay, lets chat about that.

We signed that 6 month extension AFTER Atlas entered the 30 day cooling off period. One had NOTHING to do with the other. Look at the timeline.

As far as Polar flying Atlas tails? Gee, you guys had been flying Polar callsigns for quite some time BEFORE you entered cooling off. Your staffing was as artificially high as ours was artificially low. I know you personally had nothing to do with that, but the facts are the facts.

You never answered my previous question. How do you justify calling an ACMI flight "struck"?

I'll help you out. You cant! All you CAN DO is picket your airport operations, training center, and maybe crew hotels and HOPE your union brothers and sisters honor your picket line.

SOUND FAMILIAR?.....

[Beaver Driver]

Your timeline is wrong. If I had the interest I would reseach it for you - but that kind of research usually nets me a few thousand bucks (kind of like the pictures I took). From my perspective it appears that once again Atlas Pilots -

Saved your Company's Arrogant Butts Before your Employment Died.


Oh and GD - Isn't the next contract going to be with the combined seniority list of both companies?? - once again you prove that you are in need of a brain as the one you are currently using isn't working properly.

[grazydedog]

BD, as of rigth now, aawwh will negotiate with Atlas for their next contract. at the same time, they will negotiate with a polar/atlas team for the combine contract of the combine senority list. the reason for that is that aawwh does not have to merge anything if they don't like what the arbitrator decides ( the arbitrator will decide on the merge contract, there is no way cato will agree to anything that polar/atlas offers). also , as aawwh said during our negotiations, they will seek pay cuts from atlas, so an arbitrator can compare to less ,not more.

you guys will have to negotiate on yuor own, maybe, in 18 months we wil negotiate as one, but maybe not.

that is why I said good luck. i say it again good luck , unlike you, we won't scab you.

good day.

[sidman]

I am glad to see the Polar guys are back you are all a good bunch of guys and were missed. We will see you at the UAB
Hilton 16th floor!!!

[Beaver Driver]

Not true - AAWWH will not be negotiating two contracts at once.

Additionally I am wondering what part of "binding arbitration" you don't understand. Perhaps you should actually read your ALPA policy manual on mergers.

[miafr8r]

BeaverDriver,

Oh Dude! You are TOO funny!

Come on, you're not really a pilot are you?!

You're a riot, I laughed so hard I got rum and coke shooting OUT of my nose!

[joetommy]

Great to have you guys back flying. 98% of the pilots at Atlas support your efforts.

[Fr8Dog]

So now when the merger takes place, what do you suppose will happen to the Polar Captains that are 3 and 4 years junior to some of the Atlas F/O's. Gonna be fun!

[grazydedog]

fr8dog, there will be seat and equipment locks, as in previous alpa mergers . as to how long those locks will be.....well, we could make some $ and run a poll , is anyones guess.

bvr drvr, we (atlas and polar) are binded by the arbitrator decision, and so is aawwh, unless, is not financialy viable for aawwh. that is what both our MEC have a big problem with ,
and yes, aawwh wil negotiate with atlas alone very soon .

again , if the merger doesn't happen, good luck and we will support you.

[MetAl]

we (atlas and polar) are binded by the arbitrator decision

;) ;) The word is bound, not binded.

Obviously not into BSDM, ... well maybe M.

[miafr8r]

BeaverDriver,

Your words:
So now when the merger takes place, what do you suppose will happen to the Polar Captains that are 3 and 4 years junior to some of the Atlas F/O's. Gonna be fun!

I wouldnt be so quick to make assumptions.

You were wrong about how long the strike would last...

You were wrong about Polar being shut down...

You were wrong about Polar signing the TA...

You're batting a thousand right now! Good thing you're not a professional gambler or an Airline analyist...

I suspect you'll stay on your "winning streak" with this assumption as well.

[Beaver Driver]

Actually NOT my words. That quote came from another person (Fr8dog I think). So now I will ask you - Are you really a pilot? What is your batting average? On this post alone it is ZERO.

I never opined about how long the strike would last. Read the thread.

If the Atlas Pilots had not supported your silly job-action you would have been shut down. Seems I underestimated your worth to your Atlas brothers.

I didn't publish an opinion whether the 'roids would sign the TA or not. Although If I had I would have bet they would chicken out just as they did. They didn't know how to (or were too lazy to) conduct a real strike, why sign a real contract.

Having said that, however, I do believe that the combined cockpit will be a mess. You have only to look at the Delta/Western and NWA/Republic mergers to see that the animosity is still on-going. This one will be no different.

Just remember my friend - what goes around, comes around.

[Stitchman]

Yo BD, Should we tell them the best part............you guys are being sold and your MEC knows all about it. I knew we didnt have to worry about the merger. Cheers

[grazydedog]

let me guess stichman....kalitta , evergreen or southern are one of the buyers right???

:ok:

[Beaver Driver]

The latest word is World.

[sidman]

Not us at Evergreen... Life is good for now... I hope everything works out for the PAC gang.. Alot of old freinds from Evergreen at PAC. We still think and talk about you guys..

[miafr8r]

Well BD, you're right!

You actually never said any of that. I got you confused with Fr8dog. In general, your combative, immature tones sounded so much alike, I got a little confused. I apologize.

You actually never SAID anything, after doing a quick research of your previous posts. So, I dont really see the point of you posting at all...

Unless of course your venting frustration over your own career, if infact you have one in the airline industry. All you do is take pot shots at others who care about their career paths. Kinda sad...

Take care.

[Fr8Dog]

miafr8r, you said "In general, your combative, immature tones sounded so much alike, I got a little confused". I think you have been confused quite a bit. And don't you think you are the pot talking to the kettle? If World will have you, good-bye to bad rubbish!

[miafr8r]

Oh Fr8Dog....

If World will have you, good-bye to bad rubbish!

Oh heavens! If you're buying that line, you're a "for sure" wannabe!

I wish I had $1 for everytime I heard "so and so" was gonna buy us!

I cant believe you said that...

"Pot talking to the kettle"? My posts havent been filled with the vile filth yours has, my good friend.

I havent been the one jumping for joy when 300 pilots put their careers on the line by going on strike, hoping and gleefull at the prospect of them losing their jobs.

You sound like a child who's sibling got in trouble for playing hookie from school and you're the one who ratted them out to mommy. And you couldnt wait for them to get their spanking!

If you're really a pilot, I'll bet you're a real peach to fly with.

[Fr8Dog]

More of a nectarine

[Beaver Driver]

MF
Perhaps you should stick to flying those little 172's and leave the big airplanes to the professionals; and big problems to men who can discuss them without such defensiveness and churlishness.

If Fr8dog is one of those Atlas pilots that supported you he deserves your thanks not your nasty comments. Without him and his fellow Atlas pilots you would not now have a job as AAWWH would not have come back to the table. You were in effect locked out. It was only after the Atlas MEC asked their pilots not to cross your (soon to be determined illegal by the US federal Court) picket lines that AAWWH was forced back to good faith bargaining - as I have said in all my posts the Atlas pilots were the ONLY pilot group that could help you. And yet YOU STILL insist on dumping on them. You certainly fit the bill of the spoiled child crying to mommy a whole lot better than fr8dog.

[CR2]

Folks, ease off on the personal attacks.

[miafr8r]

BD,

I have nothing but admiration for the Atlas, Arrow and other crewmembers who honored our picket lines and struck freight rules.

Those individuals will never be able to buy a drink in my presence.

My comments were directed only at you two.

I suggest you review your previous posts and reflect on your comments if you insist on judging childish behavior.

Labor disputes stir emotions on both sides of the issue. You may be an intellegent individual and a thoughtful pilot, but your posts suggest otherwise.

If fr8Dog honored our lines, I'll gladly cover his bar tab! The tone of his posts however, suggest otherwise as well.

BD, perhaps you should get back in a 172 and remember why you got in this line of work to begin with. Hell, I'll give you a ride in mine if you want!

CR2, where were you a week ago?

Oh and BD, concerning your comments regarding the TRO\'s:
(soon to be determined illegal by the US federal Court)
Both lawsuits concerning the TRO have been dropped by all parties when the TA was ratified.

I thought you\'d like to know since you like getting the facts straight.

Take care

[Heilhaavir]

Kev,

Why you continue to stir the pot or to reply to some of these posts, I don't know. We've talked before and I know you're smarter than that. I'm sure the 2 guys that are going at it on these boards are big enough to defend themselves, and you know that neither of them is right. So why not let it go?

Did you ever really believe that they were going to shut down PO? Did you ever believe that AAWH had a buyer and would sell us as soon as we walked? Did you ever believe that the newfires would never come back with the airplanes? Did you ever think that either side, Mgmt or the PO MEC, would risk losing 4 slots on Wed and 2 more on Fri in NRT? That's really what brought both sides to the table, not the threats of being shut down. I'm sure that with your position you were privy to a lot of info, so why continue the game, it's over ;)

To come back to BF, many of us here have never even met the guy or seen what's on the infamous letter you're talking about. Why not educate the group? You can PM that letter to me if you want and I can pass it around since we never had the honor of reading it and understanding what many of you guys are talking about, from both sides BTW. If what you say is true then maybe we should both work on removing him from the merger committee, but until you show me/us the facts, how can we know if what you say is true? I repeat, a large number here don't even know what it's all about...

As for the sale of PO, come on Kev, although it would probably be best for both sides, it's really getting old. So old that if it actually does happen one day, no one will even pay attention to the press release :E

I'll end by thanking ALL Atlas pilots that helped, and I know that NO PO pilots will forget them. I know many who will have the list in their back pocket and will thank & treat them at the next layover when they meet them.

Kev, I'd really appreciate a PM with that letter. It might be time to educate the group that doesn't know what you're talking about.

How about breakfast in ICN?
Cheerios:ok:

[pakeha-boy]

Not much to add ,as this is a very contenious issue.I use Polar to commute back and fro to Kiwi through Oz.The Polar boys are a bloody good lot,all the best to them in this endevour.You are welcome on my jumpseat anytime(HP)

[Po Boy]

CR2,

Why don't you just close this thread, it's getting pretty damn boring!

[miafr8r]

Heilhaavir,

Yea, you're right. It was entertaining for a while, but it's gotten a little boring.

See ya on the line.

[goatherder]

Words and threats...but most were from the Polar wives!!! Do you know that they were the primary cause of the foul language and trying to roll over the Atlas crew vans???? Oh, and it is also rumoured that the person who kicked in the DHL van door was also a Polar wife...Damn, no wonder Polar pilots like to stay out on the road for 23 days...and willingly!!!!!

The TA included protection for the pilots who set up and honored the picket lines...it did not include protection for their wives...

[Tiger Guy]

I don't have a dog in this fight but I think that it is time Fr8Dog and Beaverdriver get a grip. I walked the picket line with the Polar guys and I never saw any of the nonsense you ramble on about. Also, I will give you a quote by Erickson"The reason I will not raise the bar above 10.5 for Polar is we plan to cut the Atlas salary in the merger" unquote.
Isn't time to call it quits to this thread.

[Beaver Driver]

hahahahaha....

.....and where is THAT quote?
Atlas isn't paid a "salary" and Erickson never said that.

And, if you don't have a "dog in this fight" then why say anything? And why would you walk a picket line without having a dog in the fight? All of us had pretty much called it quits on this thread (I certainly had) - until you found the need to post. wtfo?

Oh and which picket line did you walk? The one that picketed the Dimond parking lot on 7th avenue in ANC? Or perhaps you were on the line in Burwash Landing that struck the whole state of Alaska? Or maybe you were on the line in SEA that struck the entire continent of North America? Tell me oh wise one - WHERE DOES IT END?


READ THE THREAD. The 'roids were not picketing the common enemy! They were focused on the only entity in the world that could have REALLY helped them - the Atlas pilots. They were picketing individual Atlas pilots, not AAWWH. Why?

Pat,
Maybe you can explain it. If you figured that AAWWH would come back to the table from the mourning for their "lucrative" Japan landing rights then WHY did you feel the need to focus on individual Atlas pilots and not picket the office or the airport like you should have.

The simple answer is that your MEC felt that the only way he was going to get movement from the company was by shutting down Atlas through the pilots. When the ATLAS pilots shut down ANC - and AAWWH got a TRO, it backfired. AAWWH could have (within the TRO) required Atlas pilots to fly Polar Cargo and Polar routes as well as Polar airplanes (if they could have shifted them to the certificate in time). The simple fact of the matter is that the TRO is why Bobbbbb even went back to the table - because he recognized that the TRO was REALLY bad for you guys. Sorry but "thems the facts."

[Skipness One Echo]

So are Polar and Atlas going to merge to become one (very grumpy) company?
The moral of this thread is that if you hire the proper lawyers and accountants you can prove anything you want to be true.......
Sadly. Good wishes and godspeed to you all.

[MetAl]

Ok, Maybe it's my turn to close a thread. But I suspect not.

Polar entered their strike hoping to get the same hourly rate as Atlas. Wasn't gonna happen, considering their work rules and rigs.

Polar is pissed at being a step child. Born of Ned and Mark, given up to GE, and now in the hands of AAWWH. And not making any money.

Polar figures that the Japanase LR are more important than anything, and strikes.

Polar forgets that they forced a Judge to validate tha Alliance agreement.

Atlas flys their schedule, drops all the Polar flights, to no affect, Polar is a losing proposition, dropping the PAC flights actually results in a net gain for AAWWH.

Polar then shuts down Atlas. Now the "stuff" happens.

Assertions of scabbing, assaults, name calling, etc.

Polar finally got back in, not cause of a concerted ALPA action, because of a unified Atlas Action.

Polar should be sold. Again. As a stockholder in AAWWH, that's my recommendation.

I've flown with both companies, and I'll be glad when Polar is a total part of my past.

Someone, please give World 25 bucks to take these guys off my back.

[WhaleDriver]

MetAl,
Couldn't have said it better. We find out about some of the "Stuff" Friday from the MEC.

If they do go thru with the merger, an arbitrator will decide what the merged list will look like. Polar will want Atlas stapled to the bottom of theirs because they are the real men here, having gone on strike and "won". Besides, it will be on their certificate. I bet we end up with some kind of ratio, and a two year seat lock.

Of course, it sounds like they'll only have nine planes, so not as many folks to deal with. I bet less than 300.

Then Cato and company will walk in and offer Polars pay and Atlas's work rules....duhhhh. That's why they wanted to stick to 10.5%. And you guessed it, when the dust settles, an arbitrator will decide.

As long as Polariods are going around with a list in their back pocket, their will be real issues around here. There will be accusations of eyedrops in coffee, luggage messed with, ect. Their MEC has to make clear that it has to end now.

[grazydedog]

Whale driver, Polar's MEC has made clear that it is over and we must move forward.most of the Polar guys will do that . some( like at Atlas with your last contact) , won't.
the list that some guys will carry in their pockets is a list of those guys suspended by AAWWH management for refusing to cross Polar lines. the reason they carry that list is to make sure those guys don't ever pay for a drink in front of a Polar crew ( small token of gratitude).
when it comes to the "scabbing" incidents, all the "strike incident reports" are being investigated. I believe most are not real incidents and will be dismiss.
you are right when you say that an arbitrator will decide on the "new" contract and on the "new "senority list and the time of the seat locks. however, Polar's crew staffing will remain at the current level no matter how few airplanes we fly, as long as an Atlas plane flies with a Polar call sign (part of our scope clause alliance thing).
as far as I'm concern, I heve alrady moved on and I'm ready, if we merge,to work together to achieve a better contract next time around. we can't do anything about the past but learn from it and prepare for the future.
if Polar gets sold, then good luck on your future contact negotiations.

my 2 cents

[Miamfreight]

This thing could have turned out so well for the cargo pilots. Defining struck work was a "bone of contention" between Atlas and Polar during Atlas' contract negotiations. During this round the Polar and Atlas MEC's worked so closely together to deal with this issue. The Polar group spent a lot of time identifying specific flights that they have historically done. The Atlas guys acknowledged these flights but came up with the best solution ever. "We can not be compelled to cross a legal picket line." What a graceful solution to a tough problem. What happened? After the strike the definition of a "picket line" was a hot topic. Shakey guidance from the Atlas MEC results in indecision. This was followed by brave guidance from the Atlas MEC Chair. (I am confused now.) Injuncitons follow. Net result in my opinion. The aviation community in general sees Atlas Pilots (except for a few stand up individuals) as scabs. ASMI (Aircraft Scabs Maintainance Insurance). Stand by UPS and FedEx.

Next step integrating two hostile pilots groups. Gee, doesn't this company do it's best to operate safely.

I think Polar is history. The law suits against AAWH and ALPA will go on for years but in the long run the Atlas crews will prevail because they have shown themselves to be the most malleable to management. Cato holds all of the cards. He loves his pilots to be subservient. Polar has not proved to be easy to deal with.

It was a brave move but futile move by the Polar pilots. Unfortunately corporate America rules.

Think twice before applying to Atlas. I'd rather have my back covered by an Evergreen or Kallita guy any day.

[WhaleDriver]

GD,

Sounds like the way to go. When I heard about the lists, I assumed the worst, thanks for straighting me out.

As for furloughs, while Atlas is doing alliance flying, AAWH "implies" your scope clause can be read differently. Check out the good ole AAWH Rumor Board, question 3042. No, I didn't ask the question. I bet the question and answer were written by the same fellow.

[cfire]

I had hoped this had died, but it hasn't. Recent confrontations in ICN and ANC at the provoking of Polar crews indicate otherwise.

The MEC present and past at Polar (Bobb Henderson now and past Bob Fell previous) has continued a hate campaign against the Atlas crewmembers within our industry.

Despite the fact that the Polar MEC Chair (at that time Bob Fell) was willing to fly mutually agreed upon struck work, Atlas aircraft and customers, in our 11th hour of negotions/countdown to strike, we supported Polar during the 2005 Polar strike despite their complete lack of support for the Atlas crewmembers during our turn in the slot.

We supported Polar 1000% times more than they ever did us. I'm sorry, 1000% times no support from Polar is nothing. So let me say we supported Polar when they never supported us in the past. Figure the math yourselves. Of course they stabbed us in the backs on many other things, but that is besides the point.

After this, they continue a campaign of hate against Atlas crew members for them settling for less than what was offered prior to their strike despite our extra ordinary support. Yeah, I have what was offered before versus what was offered during the strike. More than one guy added it up and you are getting less than what was on the table before the cost of the strike from your paychecks and signing bonuses lost. I guess Chairman Henderson didn't mention that or he is sticking to his line of kick the Atlas pilots for Polar problems.

Here is the cut down version of the Atlas VARS in MP3 for the Polar guys that can't read. (http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/oct31vars.mp3)

Here it is in in PDF (http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/atlasoct31vars.pdf)

Here is the Woerth Letter that goes with it.
In PDF (http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/CaptainBourneOct3105.pdf)

http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/woerthletteronpolar.jpg

Polar MEC Bobb Henderson even touches on Polars lack of support for Atlas while coveting support for themselves. All while behind the scenes he was/is bad mouthing us to every MEC within ALPA that he could and to his membership. I bet this letter never made it to the Polar membership as it was agreed upon.

In PDF (http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/HendersonJointLetter.pdf)

http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/HendersonJointLetter1.jpg
http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/HendersonJointLetter2.jpg

[MetAl]

Ya know, Bobb isn't worth the paper or black pixels he takes up.

My two cents.

[MetAl]

Hats off to Danny Fine, the proprietor of this web site for his removal of the purported Atlas Scab list.

Our only hope is that Danny will divulge the identiy of the poster to the appropriate authourities.

Good on ya Danny.

[Engineer]

No hats off for this and the guy was wrong to remove the list

It should have been left has a testiment to those brave individuals that stood up for what they believed without cowering to intimidation and bigotry.

If you want to remove your hat do so to one and all of those people mentioned in the list. :ok:

[JW411]

I have to admit that I was starting to enjoy it. I had almost forgotten how bigoted those Eastern guys were before they blew themselves out of the water for example.

Then there was Tigers, Transamerica, Capitol etc all of them convinced that the management was hiding money under the bed.

Some of that was possibly true but was it worth dying for?

[CR2]

Lets leave it at that. Its time to move on.

Thanks to the many of you who emailed me on this subject. I was away for the weekend without computer access, so I only saw the thread Monday morning. Fortunately one of the "higher up" Mods managed to pull the post. Thanks for your understanding & patience.

[joetommy]

Do you guys think the so called scab list will be sent to the various jump seat coordinators?

[Beaver Driver]

I doubt if any of them would care. Everyone in the industry with the exception of a minor few Polaroids knows the truth of the matter.

[zerozero]

The "list" isn't even sactioned by ALPA.

[Beaver Driver]

Currently thinking is that the Atlas Pilots will be stapled to the top of the Polar list.

[WhaleDriver]

BD,

Thats not the way to do things. Tell ya what, let's put it up to the pilots to vote. Polar stapled on the end of Atlas, or Atlas stapled on the end of Polar. The one with the most votes win. Now that sounds fair and democratic to me.

[Beaver Driver]

WD
Makes about as much sense as anything I have heard. Unfortunately, no one will get to vote on it. According to ALPA merger policy it is up to the merger committee to come up with a list - if they cannot do so then, like anything else these days, it comes down to lawyers and arbitrators. That is one reason why I find Furlough Fodders post so ridiculous, hence my equally ridiculous reply to him.

Additionally, there will soon be no "Polar side," it will all be ATLAS AIR worldwide holdings. Something the Polaroids seem to forget is that they are owned by ATLAS AIR worldwide holdings. All the airplanes (or leases) are owned by ATLAS AIR world wide holdings. The Polar employees are paid by ATLAS AIR worldwide holdings. Both certificates are owned by ATLAS AIR worldwide holdings.

Furlough food is there any part of Polar being owned by ATLAS AIR that you do not understand?

[non sched]

Beaver Diver

Just a question about the China route authority granted to Polar. If the company shifts all planes and crew to the Atlas ticket will they lose those rights or will they be trasferred to Atlas' certificate?

[Intruder]

FYI. The current straight scoop from ALPA National:

======================

Received: from mail.alpamail.org (reviewer.alpamail.org[12.109.46.79])
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Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 13:17:28 -0500
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
From: "AAI072 Fastread" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: ALPA, AAI MEC, and PAC MEC Statement on "Scab" lists
Sender: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]

----- Original Message -----
From: "AAI072 Fastread" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 10:17 AM
Subject: ALPA, AAI MEC, and PAC MEC Statement on "Scab" lists


Memo

To: Atlas and Polar Crewmembers

From: Captain Paul Rice, Vice President- Administration, ALPA
Captain Dave Bourne, Chairman, Atlas MEC
Captain Bobb Henderson, Chairman, Polar MEC

Date: November 11, 2005

ALPA has been informed that anonymous persons have purported to disseminate so-called "scab" lists of Atlas crewmembers. Such lists are not authorized and are repudiated by the Atlas and Polar MECs and ALPA. ALPA and your MEC remind you that the only body authorized to make findings that an ALPA member has actively participated in strikebreaking activities is a Hearing Board established pursuant to Article VIII of the ALPA Constitution and Bylaws. To date no findings have been made by a Hearing Board that any Atlas crewmember has engaged in strikebreaking activities during the Polar strike. The persons who are attempting to disseminate such lists are warned that making such reckless, inaccurate and inflammatory allegations is a serious matter that subjects the accusers to possible discipline, potential Article VIII sanctions, and potentially significant personal liability. ALPA calls on anyone engaging in such acts to immediately cease this inappropriate conduct.

cc: Executive Council

[Beaver Driver]

Non Sched,

Belated answer to your question is that apparently some route authority is transferable and some is not, and without a lot of research I can't tell which is which. Probably AAWH or the DOT can tell - perhaps you could ask them.

I have heard a RUMOR that the China routes may be transferable. For example if Atlas were to sell Polar to UPS it would probably be for the China route authority, thus allowing them to compete with FedEx. However, I wonder if the aircraft leases and the route authority would be utilized by UPS and the Polar pilot group go the way other UPS purchases have gone.

Others have told me that some route authority can be transfered within the business. So it is possible that the China, Japan, or SA routes could also be transferred to Atlas from Polar (or Vice Versa).

Having said all that, it appears that in most cases the route authority follows the certificate. This is one reason AAWH has said the Polar certificate will be the "surviving certificate." However, AAWWH has proven itself adept at creative accounting, so it would not be a stretch to think that creative certificate and route authority manipulation is out of the question.

I guess the short answer is - who knows - best bet if you work for Polar OR Atlas is to have your CV polished and ready to mail.

bd

[WhaleDriver]

Lack of faith in the managment team in place, is more like it. If they spent half as much effort in growing the business as they did in fighting labor, they would have to turn down work, and be hiring like crazy.

Instead, they spend ten million to keep the employees from getting one million.

[MetAl]

No one has touched this tread for 2 months, but there's still life in it.

Just read a letter today from the VP Ops at Atlas World Wide Holdings, (parent company of Atlas and Polar). In that letter, he says that in his opinnion, and the opinion of the Company in general, the Polar MEC has violated their back to work agreement.

Specifically, the Polar Pilot Group has instituted retribution against the Atlas pilots, with the full knowledge and more than overt support of the Polar MEC.

It certainly looks like bad times are coming for the Polar MEC, not only from AAWW management, but from ALPA National.

[Tiger Guy]

In a previous life it has been my "luck" to have had the experience to come in contact with the individual who calls himself V.P. Flt. Ops of Atlas/Polar and just about everything else.
He has done a very good job of keeping up disharmony between the two pilot groups by playing one against the other.this only to satisfy his own end and gain. Unfortuately for both groups some of you are falling for his B.S. One thing to remember is that--
"If his lips are moving he is lying". I have not nor probably will not read this mentioned document. But if it came from this individual I can guarentee most of it is pure fabrication.
Good luck with your merger.

[jumbojet1159]

:eek: Someone at Atlas gave me this:
======================================================
Good evening crewmembers, this is MEC Vice Chairman John Caputo with a VARS update for Friday evening, January 13, 2006.

This week, the MEC and members of the Negotiating Committee met in Washington with ALPA staff and Polar representatives to pre brief for the planned meeting next week with the company over the company’s proposed merger protocols.

While it appears some protocols are possible, more discussion remains on some key areas of concern. Since the company still has yet to provide all the required data, we still have questions about how they are proceeding with the merger.

After the meeting, the Polar MEC advised us that they intended to file Article 8 charges against approximately 160 Atlas crewmembers. To call this disgusting is a gross understatement, especially in light of the fact that the Polar Strike Chairman himself advised the ALPA Executive Council that NO Atlas pilot was a scab.

The inescapable fact remains that the Polar crewmembers were set up for a strike by an MEC Chairman who caved into management 36 hours into a 30 day cooling off and set his own pilots up for failure…and when he screwed that up, he tried to force us into violating our CBA…

When a Federal Judge issued a TRO against us…he went out and lied about it not only to his own crews…but to other ALPA carriers…because what he wanted, in his own words, was for this MEC and ALPA National to order YOU to violate the Federal judges order…disgusting.

After being proven wrong time and again in his interpretations and protestations, he then began a cheap, gutless assault on the staff and employees of ALPA National and to this day continues to encourage the spreading of lies about Atlas pilots worldwide…

Folks, there are not words yet written to describe this lack of morals.

He stood on a soapbox time and time again over the past two years, wailing that we really have one common enemy…well…WE Atlas pilots do. The same people who openly volunteered to scab us at the end of our cooling off…who screwed up the Alliance Agreement arbitration which affected us as well. The same people who have lied to us, ALPA National and every other airline…they’ve broken promises and abused people wherever they go.

These are the people we are supposed to merge with? First they cry, and then they lie…a pattern they have exhibited since “they” bought “us.”

How pathetic.

But, they wanted a fight…they’ve got one. Every step of the way. We will fight the Article 8 charges and we will assist each crewmember wrongly accused who seeks redress in the civil courts as well. A team of crewmembers is working right now with lawyers on a separate civil suit against each and every Polar crewmember involved…and the damages sought should well be in the millions of dollars…against those people.

As always…Polar knows better…ALPA National has made it clear time and again to Polar that they were on thin ice and should not be stupid and attack you…and has advised them again that they will get NO support from ALPA National on the lawsuit. In other words…they’re on their own.

Yesterday, an unsigned letter from an unnamed, so called “Strike Breakers Committee” sent Dave Bourne a certified letter, demanding he provide addresses for crewmembers they did not have. Or that he order ALPA to provide them…DEMANDED???

After they used every lie possible to try and trick ALPA staff into violating ALPA policy to provide the addresses. And then went to other cargo airlines, hoping to get the information. Again, pretty pathetic. But, as we said…they started this fight.

We’ll finish it.

Stay tuned for updates. And despite these individuals, stay professional…like you always have. And fly safe.



Re; John Caputo Atlas MEC Vice-Chairman
Caputo is ex. Eastern Airlines. To the best of my knowledge he does not have a valid medical. Due to being grossly overweight don't know about being sent back from Anchorage but he was not allowed into the Polar Strike Center in Herndon. Due to his antics verbally attacking personnel in the Center and also as a suspected conduit to Cato.

[WhaleDriver]

Three things to note on the above post. One, the statement was made in the public with no fear of retribution by those he talks about. Why, because it's the truth, or close enough to not fear legal action.

Two, Polars MEC response, none, nil, nadda. A VARS response tonite that has a bunch of fluffy words about not talking to another pilot like this, or being unprofressional, but in the end, no response. Trust me, there will be responses at breakfast tables and bars, where no one will question them, or challenge them, but not in the public where it has to face the lite of truth.

And number three. No response in the above post, just comments about the person making the statement for the Atlas MEC.

You Judge?

[trashhauler]

You want a response? Well, here is one. First, a lot of what Caputo said is just plain wrong. Secondly, comments like that do not deserve a response. Two questions and then a comment.
1. In the final agreement Atlas demanded a statement that the MEC would not initiate any action against any Atlas crewmember that crossed the line. Hey, if no one crossed, why need that clause?
2. If no one crossed why worry about it at all? I was on the line and if you were in the right, why run around the back, you weren't doing anything wrong, correct?
Finally, our MEC had the foresight to get all the ducks in a row before making these very serious charges and while I deplore the unofficial list that was posted on this forum, I am pretty sure there was a lot of scabbing. All I needed was my portable radio to listen to the "Polar" call signs on departure, and the ones that changed call signs in flight, to know that something was up. And, a few with long range lenses got another bunch.

[turrbntrip]

Agreed, Caputo was out of line.

Just what is he afraid of, anyway?


TT

[WhaleDriver]

All I needed was my portable radio to listen to the "Polar" call signs on departure, and the ones that changed call signs in flight, to know that something was up. And, a few with long range lenses got another bunch.

Now your just making stuff up...I'm done.

[CR2]

Just a comment about callsigns. I guess you all know I'm CLX/CV. We've used AirFrance/Luftie/El Al Air Vietnam and many others. ACMI is not our primary business (it is yours...) but it gets done from time to time. Air Atlanta use ours everyday. No big deal.

[Tiger Guy]

As an ALPA member I find it appalling that any ALPA member and especially the MEC Vice Chair would get on a forum and spew this kind of crap to and about other ALPA brothers.
There is the proper place to settle this type of riff not on open forums.
If I was a member of the Atlas council I would be embarrassed to have him as my representive and would take action to have this individual removed from office. I have been in this Association for a long time and he is a disgrace to the organization.

[zerozero]

Ok, one more time, real loud, for those in the back or who may be hard of hearing.

A scab is someone who takes another's job.

In other words, Polar strikes and someone flies a Polar airplane full of Polar "stuff". Then that's a scab.

An Atlas guy who flies an AMC flight in an Atlas airplane is not and can never be scab.

Not even if he crosses some arbitrary line in front of some arbitrary hotel.

Not even if you wish really, really hard. It just can't be. I mean whose job was stolen if I go to the hotel? The maid's? Give me a break.