FLS/CAA

[morroccomole]

FLS have had their ability to issue concessions withdrawn by the CAA. My sources tell me that the reasons are the major management changes made by the new CEO (he didn't inform CAA), and an incident at LGW where on investigation, a concession was issued when it shouldn't have been.
This situation has the ability to seriously upset all FLS customers.

[near enuf is good enuf]

Why am I not surprised. Has anyone got something positive to say about FLS ?

[morroccomole]

Update; CAA have now condescended to allow FLS to issue concessions for customers other than Airtours. It follows an(other) incident where an airtours aircraft departed under a concession for a duct clamp being held together with ty wraps, which consequently failed and caused depressurisation.
CAA are currently camped out at Diamond Hangar going through all records. I am led to believe that they have given management a list of requirements to be met within 7 days, if not, who knows what could happen?

[near enuf is good enuf]

I don't know how genuine your info is , but if true what sort of quality dept would authorise such a concess.

[morroccomole]

My information is coming from a 2 sources. First post was from an FLs customer, 2nd from within the FLS nerve centre so hopefully very accurate.

[Bus429]

I am surprised that companies such as FLS continue to operate in such a manner given the liability of the Accountable Manager and increased awareness of Human Factors.
Few AMs realise what they have signed in the front of the MOE.
Let's face it, if the Accountable Manager is going down, he'll make sure his underlings go with him!

[The hippy]

OOPS!!!

Was this on one of their 9 day super c checks?

(ref an talking subject. 5 weeks ago!)

[morroccomole]

Latest news from Stan Sted: more mangement shake ups including; Tech Records chief, Quality Chief and easyTech Chief all being moved out of their jobs onto 'Special Projects'. (rumour has it that the 'project' is working out which way to turn the door handle on your way out). There is mass disbelief at easyTech as they are allegedly the only profitable line station and all staff (including boss) were given 100% personal bonus last month.
also yesterday a bad day for Airtours. CAA are camped at the Diamond and searching all records, paying particular attention to repairs carried out without supporting documentation, i.e IAW nothing. One such repair on an A320 cargo door has caused it to be grounded until done properly. Also an A330 had 30 hrs remaining to A check. Concession was asked for to carry until Weds, CAA said NO. Airtours then boarded pax, flew a/c to MAN, pax put into terminal, wait 9 hours while A check is done.

[Penn Doff]

Third party maint providors are no good, penny pinching to the point of ????. Line maint should be carried out by people who care about both the reputation and the safety of the airline that pay's them at the end of the month.

FLS? the reputation say's it all!, the sooner they go down the pan the better (with respect to the many engineers held back by poor management).



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"please report further"

[Bus429]

Hippy - heard of a "Formula 1" 9 day check on a DC-10 which was scheduled for 21 days.

Apparently, cracks were subsequently found on the horizontal stab.

Are the guys/gals certifying these checks mad? Remember, every certification you make lasts for the life of the aircraft and beyond.

[Phixer]

Have a look at http://www.eirhost.com/iabb/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000331.html. It's the Irish Aviation Bulletin Board.
Topic kinda died a death 'cos no one wants to slag off the nice chaps in TEAM now FLS HQ!
Also heard something happened (or wasn't done!) to a VS 747 or 2.

[The hippy]

Good point bus 429

Did anyone see "Airline" on TV the other night? "25 MINUTE TURN ROUNDS" on Easy Jet 737 A/C.

The question has to be asked can a ground engineer do an arrival/departure check in that time correctly.

(Are they using the emergency exits as well for disembarcation)

Correct me if I`m wrong but are not FLS behind the ground engineering for Easy Jet.

[growler]

Yes Hippy, FLS are behind the FLS/easyTech joint venture company, but mainly in only providing the money. 25 minute turnrounds can be achieved on a 737, (they are a bit smaller than an A320).Ask KP at your place, he did them when he was at LTN. The idea is that if the aircraft has snags that can be deferred, they are so and fixed on nightstop. If they cannot be deferred, the aircraft doesn't go, simple as that. Crews are briefed continually as to the importance of an early HF/VHF call to us if they are inbound with snags. This gives us a chance to do some t/shooting or provision spares if it is a no go situation. In my opinion, if everyone from the pilot down does his/her job efficiently, a 25 minute turn is achievable.

[Bus429]

Growler - good point(s) and probably works with Easy's sort of operation. Last year, I was involved in turnarounds of 45 mins on A320s with loads of cabin defects. We got through by excellent team-work: one guy meets and greets and the others tackle the snags. We all helped each other but it was knackering!

[LatinFlyer]

My ex works for FLS - he says what else can you expect from a company whose main interest is cement. FLS Danish principals are primarly interested in concrete. Who in their right mind would even attempt to maintain Premiair's ancient grotty DC10s especially at a distance! God knows how the purchasing guy ever finds the spares ! FLS just went through the staff at STN with an axe and sacked a whole bunch of people to reduce costs. That's a hell of a way to run a railroad.

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Latin girls have much more fun!

[Grubbykev]

I used to work for FLS & although I was made redundant It's not bitterness that causes me to say that as a company they are without a doubt the most unpricipled bunch of F**kwits you could ever wish not meet. They sacked a whole shedload of highly skilled engineers @ Bournemouth, Manchester, Gatwick & Lasham. Brought in contractors to do the jobs instead, some of whom are good but some of whom aren't quite up to spec, they know who they are. The main problem with the contractors that FLS use is that they will always use the cheapest & not the best. Anybody out there worked for Wynnwith? I'm surprised that there haven't been more incidents out of MAN & STN to tell the truth what with parts getting mixed up from one A/C rack 2 another in the unseparated environment of the diamond hangar. Scrap all Engineering Companies & insist that the work is going 2 be carried out by people who give a f**k about the A/C, the people who rely on them for their Christmas bonuses! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[Blacksheep]

Aircraft Maintenance Engineering is a SERVICE INDUSTRY. The service involves applying skilled staff, performing skilled tasks in a customised manner, to keep the customers capital assets in full working order. The major asset of a service company is not the premises, equipment or inventory, it is the skills of the employees.

Reducing the number of skilled people permanently employed is a good practice if the need for them is variable. You employ permanently only those needed for the regular work and hire just enough outside contractors to boost numbers when additional work comes in. An attempt to cut costs by substituting contract labour for permanent staff is the first step in corporate suicide for a service company. A sign of desperation. If I were employed in FLS I'd be looking for a new job without waitng to be laid off!

The UKCAA are not exactly a bunch of human dynamos. If even they are camping in the records section and paying an active interest in what is going on, the end surely cannot be far away.

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Bus429]

Can you imagine the effect on the industry if the CAA were to close, or severely curtail the activities of FLS?

It'll probably never happen. This is the problem with an agency that supports and regulates the industry. It doesn't work.
It should be made a part of the Department of Transport. The FAA and NTSB are both part of the US Dept. of Transport. There is no reason why the CAA and AAIB should not come under the same umbrella.

[This message has been edited by Bus429 (edited 27 June 2000).]

[gas path]

Interesting thread this!!!!!
I remember one of Skippy's (used to be Bobs!!) 74s coming out of there, did one flt. and got stuck down the line due to fuel t/x problems.
Fuel leaks from reserves to outb'd mains and outb'd mains to inb'd mains.
Crew refused to fly it (quite rightly) due to the structural implications.
A/C spent 3 Weeks in hangar at base having the leaks fixed. The tank sealant could be pulled off in sheets, unbonded, complete with fluff bits of carpet rivets etc.
BUT it did come out on time though!!!!!!!! ;)

[OldHand]

I don't really want to disagree with any of the real experts who contribute to these threads - after all I am a relative newcomer to the aviation business having only been involved for forty three years but FLS is not the slipshod cowboy outfit which some of you appear to infer. Is the general impression that no other company fouls up? or is it just a general gripe against third party maintenance facilities? Or do certain types of engineer just love grousing and consider themselves to be above criticism ??

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true happiness is a grounded DC10

[juicy]

Hear, hear oldhand, there are too many of us who are too quick to judge with or without all the relevent info.

[Blacksheep]

I hear you "OldHand", but if you follow the general gripes aired in this forum you'll be aware that that what worries us younger men (I've only been in the business for 37 years so I'm still relatively inexperienced :)) is the continuing pressure to deliver aircraft in less and less time using fewer and fewer people. We KNOW that standards are falling and, being responsible people, we are worried about the situation. Even "Auntie" CAA is starting to show concern and they already published a discussion paper on the shortage of qualified engineers. Read it for yourself, it provides cold hard data in support of its conclusions.

As for poor old FLS, our opinions don't count for anything. The customers will decide their fate one way or the other.

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[This message has been edited by Blacksheep (edited 28 June 2000).]

[aeroguru]

No I do not agree with old hand.Seems that 40 years experience has taught him little.
When a few groan,yes ,but in this case everyone I meet professionally,complains about them.They talk sweetly to airlines on targets but for the maintenance engineer they have been chipping away at standards since their beginnings.But they are just one of several worldwide that are the same.

[Bus429]

Sure, other MOs make errors, as do individual engineers (hands up all who have never cocked up!).
Thought so.

FLS have been making cock-ups (or is it cocks-up?) since they were FFV. They seem not to learn from their mistakes.

[The hippy]

Well said Bus 429

The comment of the CAA closeing fls is frightning, at the moment the UK is getting worried about the shortage of engineers, but two major hangers like FLS hold a lot of trained /qualified men put these in the market and I think pay talks won`t have the bite they have at the moment.

Do you think the CAA have the B*lls to remove their operation when at least 2 large operators would be very badly effected (maintance AOC for:- Airtours A320 and Easy jet 737 are in their hands.)I think not!!!

Growler, KP states that when he was working with you he was not a surporter of 25 min turnrounds, claims that there are sevral pages / items to be looked at in an arrival/departure check. BUS 429 did state to do it properly was knackering ,part of human factors maybe?

[Penn Doff]

Come, come now Mr S i don't think she deserves that. I would gladly work with her any day and dream of the day she gets her hands in my toolbox!!! We must do more to promote the industry to our sister aviation types (if only to have our tea made).

On the subject of our Stansted friends, the quality from them is not much better than the rubbish turned out by our trog friends at Cardiff. They are lucky at FLS as they have a constant stream of Ex RAF types who will bend over backwards to get approval courses and put up with anything to achieve them.

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"please report further"

[This message has been edited by Penn Doff (edited 29 June 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Penn Doff (edited 29 June 2000).]

[OldHand]

The nail was hit squarely on the head a couple of posts back. It is the relentless pressure for Charter Operators to make a profit(and why the hell not??) that puts companies like FLS in a spot. When the charter people operate ancient clapped out aircraft with the intensity that they do it is little wonder that some horrible cocks-up occur. I am not condoning those of course - as a former engineer and also a former pilot I have a very great personal interest in flight safety. I suspect that on a percentage factor, FLS may possibly be responsible for less foul ups (fouls-up ??) than many of the operations which appear to perform better. I have great confidence in the abilities of the engineering guys at FLS
(Ducks head and waits for the incoming !)

[This message has been edited by OldHand (edited 30 June 2000).]

[This message has been edited by OldHand (edited 30 June 2000).]

[aeroguru]

First post by FF CAT from a hotmail email address.You have tried to defend them but it is as unconvincing,as your email address.
Suspect you don't really know the workings of this organisation.

[Multi-X]

FF Cat - Yes there are inaccuracies in the thread but you must also remember that many of us have been customers with FLS for several years & seen a decline in the standards of service. At dozens of meeting we have been suggesting how to make checks run smoother yet no notice has been taken. Post C checks reports sent to FLS have never been acknowledged or responded to. Probably because the report of cock ups was the same as the previous C checks.

Lots of promises of improved service yet nothing in practise. I have seen 6 day C checks on A320s take 14 days! Who sets the time for the check? FLS not the customer. The staff on the floor do an excellent job, mostly, but they have never had any back up. Poor tooling, lack of the most basic spares, no projects or technical service back up.

The LAEs are inspectors, supervisors, progress chasers etc. It is little wonder mistakes happen.

You are obviously one of the survivors of the redundancies or the foreign nationals who have just joined FLS and believe as do most of the management that the customers is ripping off FLS. Before you start slagging off the customers look closer to home for the problem.

I hope FLS can do 9-day DC10 checks & the quality does not drop.

It is not hard to achieve. The old system of moving manpower from aircraft to aircraft dependant on which was the panic job never helped get an aircraft out of the door nor did the day shift finishing at 4 & nights starting at 9.

Everyone in this industry makes cock ups but FLS don’t seem to learn from theirs, it’s a pity we have to see the CAA move in before anything happens.

[OldHand]

The whole thing is getting just a little bit silly when people are judged by their e-mail address. On what grounds does aeroguru (now THERE is a totally unconvincing nickname) justify the comment that FF Cat probably doesn't know what he(or she) is talking about.
Now for Multi-X. Whilst I greatly respect the licence cover (higher than I ever had) there is a tendency for a 'them and us' attitude in the civil aircraft industry. Engineers on the hangar floor who actually produce the revenue for FLS probably feel that they get minimal support from their desk-bound colleagues. Conversely, even the most highly qualified and perceptive of engineers frequently prove beyond doubt that they are prone to making administrative mistakes such as mis-quoting a part number or demanding a part which is shown in the IPC as being NP (non-procurable) RF (reference only) or even just inventing a part number - yes I SWEAR that happens.
As regards the lack of spares, FLS engaged a team of 'consultants' who advised them that they should not actually stock spares but rely on their suppliers, going to prove that only aviation folks can actually run an aviation business. The lack of basic everyday spares is certainly a significant factor. How can anyone justify going AOG for the same spare three times in ten days??
Lastly for the moment, I find it hard to believe that the customers are ripping off FLS. I suspect that some of the contracts may have been drawn up by theorists with little or no experience of airplanes and the realities of operation come out to the detriment of FLS. I recall hearing somewhere that FLS have done a very good job with the BA Airbus fleet by the way.

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true happiness is a grounded DC10

[OldHand]

Multi-X, I am sure that we actually know each other do you have an e.mail ?

Aeroguru, I have just read your profile. Do you really expect to be taken seriously? Why is a Talk21 adress more professional than a Hotmail address?

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true happiness is a grounded DC10

[Multi-X]

Old Hand - You seem to have misread my posting. I was not having a go at the LAEs at FLS & yes they did bring in consultants regarding spares. This was when they were doing 747 section 41 majors. With long inputs you can purchase spares as required for defects but FLS have been pushing the PMO sales bit- a one stop shop. Unfortunately their purchasing department is not up to the job & many consumables have very long lead times, this blows the no spares idea out of the water, delays the check & frustrates everyone.

email - [email protected]



[This message has been edited by Multi-X (edited 02 July 2000).]

[aeroguru]

Old Hand.I never expect to be taken so seriously!Incidentally,train spotter?Get a life.And yes,I agree with eeryone,the hands on guys and gals at F.L.S are the bees knees.
The problem is their immediate superiors.
And their Q.A./ dept. has always had it's nuts squeezed.

[OldHand]

OK aeroguru, we call a truce?? lol!
Meant no offence just get so grubbed off when I feel that people are pontificating without knowing all of the facts!

FLS was a very good outfit and once the wrinkles are smoothed out, it will be again.

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true happiness is a grounded DC10

[plainoldfitter]

formula 1 ??? do we get Mr Walker running round the hangar commentating - "Here comes store's 1 issuing spares to the wings, no he has spun and the cabin delivery stores person slips by in to pole posn!"

We get the same old story, communication is of the utmost importance. Good comms= good work, so we are still in the mushroom phase then.

Did the 9.75 day DC10 check mean the a/c flew defect free or did it have to stay on and have defects rectified?????? come on six smegma tell us the truth

[dash80]

With the trouble in fls recently it is wondered how Dublin will integrate into third party maint. as at one time it was owned and run by the national airline. A lot of Dub has not changed dramatically since then (except for the increasing pressure in the business all over etc.)With the "English situation" it will be interesting to see the impact in Dublin which still seems to be fairly stable.

Does "formula one" work?
is the question on many lips as it is only something heard from a distance by many interested parties.

Overall will Dub succeed on it's own and is "formula one" the way forward?

How big a success was it in Manchester and is it the way forward?


All interested parties opinions this way please.....................

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oops! i did it again or did I..........?

[dash80]

With the trouble in fls recently it is wondered how Dublin will integrate into third party maint. as at one time it was owned and run by the national airline. A lot of Dub has not changed dramatically since then (except for the increasing pressure in the business all over etc.)With the "English situation" it will be interesting to see the impact in Dublin which still seems to be fairly stable.

Does "formula one" work?
is the question on many lips as it is only something heard from a distance by many interested parties.

Overall will Dub succeed on it's own and is "formula one" the way forward?

How big a success was it in Manchester and is it the way forward?


All interested parties opinions this way please.....................

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oops! i did it again or did I..........?

[juicy]

Come now simmonds, 3 months is a little unfair, its at least 4 years, and as for you penn, i'll deal with you later in private !!

[Penn Doff]

Juicy i'm rubbing my screwdriver in anticipation, are you sure your husband won't mind!!!!!!! Aaaaah the thought of a nightshift with a buxom wench, time for a cold shower me thinks!!!!!

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"please report further"

[castin]

Heard a good one about Virgin pulling out of maint with FLS any truth in this?

[dash80]

Castin,
at the moment there is no mention of virgin pulling out of F.L.S. There is not even a snicker on the grapevine,

so I,d say its complete bull. at the moment.

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maybe not today probably tomorrow.......

[airsafetyreport]

FLS & the CAA are having problems at the moment but at least the moral on the shop floor seems to be improving. FLS have some good people working for them it is just taking time for the management to see that.
:)

[old-timer]

no excuses for engineering mistakes.....
but here are my thoughts....

I have seen the sort of unreasonable pressure applied by
operators, on the overworked & under appreciated guys & girls who fix the airplanes, which almost invites mistakes to
occur (dont forget, JAR OPS
makes operators legally responsible to
ensure that their airplanes are maintained properly, so they are not blameless in this)

Its easy for an airline rep' to try to bully
folk into doing things which they are not too happy about, but, he/she never has to sign the airplane off !

FLS are looking to make money,
like the operator,
BUT....
there is a limit,
if safety is compromised, I say the game is over, period !!!

The punters want a cheap holiday, but they do expect to get there & back safely !!

[dash80]

It seems to me that with the increasing pressures associated with A/C maint. are being amplified with the lack of approved people.
The current policy of the "accountable manager" simply can't work if that person happens to be the crew supervisor.

The function of the supervisor is increasing on a daily basis due to all the heat generated by recent events.

The super deals with everything from the bottom up to the top down, more approved people are required to ease the pressure on all concerned and proper incentives must be in place to encourage more staff to take this
option.

at the moment who is accountable in real terms despite any "company policy"


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"thats not my signature.......errrr!

[plainoldfitter]

just how badly off are fls?
are they involved in a merger? take over? or just a buy out by Honeywell, Boeing, or just at the end of the line fiscally?

STN seems to be the poor relation at the moment.

Formula 1 may be a gimmic to late to save peoples jobs.

[This message has been edited by plainoldfitter (edited 19 July 2000).]

[old-timer]

my pals there are cautious about the
whole thing...
seems there must be a serious financial
situation developing/developed...
glad I'm down at southend now...