Shooting for the stars, it's in the right direction.

[redtail]

In another forum, ( http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/010067.html )this was in the middle of a news article about airline wages after the United pilots negotiated their new contract.

"The mechanics’ union at Northwest Airlines, represented by the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA), has taken a lead from United’s pilots with an aggressive pay proposal that is also staggering the industry. AMFA is pushing from a base pay jump from $22.50 an hour after five years to $40 after two years. Northwest’s mechanics have made an issue about recognition of their skills. They dumped the International
Associaton Of Machinists & Aerospace Workers
last year because they felt lost among other trades that were represented by the IAM."

Maybe things will change for the better for our field.

[mriya225]

Bravo, on both counts!!

I need that boost to my spirits today redtail, thanks! :)

[Blacksheep]

OK chaps, lets all jump into the ALAE, turn it into a proper trade union - no-one allowed in without a licence sort of thing - and refuse to certify anything until we are properly paid. That ought to do it!

But hang on a minute, the Management might send lots of our jobs to Hong Kong, Abu Dhabi and China (or even Brunei maybe!)then where would we be? Maybe we need to get the UKCAA and JAA to stop approving foreign maintenance bases first.

Like the Americans did.

Damn! Does anyone know a sympathetic M.P.? As usual politics gets in the way of a good idea. And I was always taught that the Labour Party was about people power. :rolleyes:

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[This message has been edited by Blacksheep (edited 24 September 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Blacksheep (edited 24 September 2000).]

[H721]

What is wrong to have heavy maintenance done in HKG?!?! We are holding UKCAA issued approvals and also have FAA Part 145 accredited.

FYI, we also perform heavy maintenance works on Northwest and many other N-registered aircraft.

Our industry have a global scope. CX also have 4A/A Checks done in Heathrow / Bangkok / Taiwan...

------------------
Not much of an engineer



[This message has been edited by H721 (edited 24 September 2000).]

[redtail]

H721, I think it is shortsighted of mechanics/engineers/technicians/whatever to work on another airline’s aircraft for less than what that airline is paying for the labor in house. Yes you have a job today, but at what price? If you work on a Northwest airplane, why don’t you get paid Northwest wages? Is your work worth less than a Northwest mechanic’s work? It shouldn’t be. Are you being paid less for your labor than UK or US maintenance worker? Why?

If you do the same work, you should get the same pay. If needed, vote with your feet. With this contract we hope to lead the industry. Join us.

[Blacksheep]

H721,

There's nothing wrong with getting work done anywhere that has the skills and approvals. BUT, labour rates are issue here. HAECO, GAMCO, GAMECO and RBA undercut the UK labour rates by using cheap local labour. Assuming you're a local, wouldn't you rather get the same pay as, say, a Brittania LAE for working on one of their aircraft? As long as we go around undercutting each others wages then engineering technicians the world over suffer. Sure we have jobs, but in the long run everybody suffers. Even the airlines themselves suffer when well qualified people move out of the industry and new entrants are discouraged by the pay and conditions.

The American guys used political clout to prevent US registered aircraft from being certified in foreign FAA repair centres. Now they can squeeze more cash out of their employers. Their employers cannot transfer the labour costs overseas and have to pay up. As pay and conditions improve, more people will stay in the industry and new entrants will be attracted. Maintenance standards will improve and everyone, including the employers benefit in the long run. Its as simple as that. 'Destructive cost-cutting' has gone on long enough, lets get back to the basics.

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[greaseytech]

Has anyone heard the expression 'You get what you pay for'? With a few exceptions, all of Britannia's aircraft that have been farmed out, and this goes back from 737 days to date, have come back in worse condition than they went out. Lowest quote maintenance has and never will be cost effective. If you go for the lowest quote you must leave something in the pot just in case you need to fix things left undone. So in reallity you can afford to have a better job done in the first place! I firmly believe that aircraft maintenance shouldn't be treated as a service industry. In the end it will lead to a compromise in safety as items will get ignored, being deemed as too expencive by airline accountants who have very little insight into the real world of aviation maintenance.

[somefokker]

Guys, Don't take it out on H721. The Engineers in HAECO are very well paid, in fact the basic salary is a lot more than you would earn in the U.K. That's why there are a lot of ex-pats out there.
O.K., mechanics in Hong Kong might not earn as much as their European or American counterparts, but they are very well paid by Hong Kong standards when you compare them to people who work in the clothing or plastic toy type industries.
Hope that sets the record straight. :)
Regards
SomeFokker

[WenWe]

somefoker - u r right. h721 is either a very well paid (but not as good as it used to be eh guys?) expat or a local guy who wants to work at home.
Why should either turn work away just 'cos the local rates undercut uk/us?
Some peeps need to wake up to the fact that this is now a global business - the only way to make your case is on time back into service/quality of work.
JAA/CAA/FAA approvals for foriegn repair stations give a level playing field to the bean counters, we need a strong counter argument to outsoursing, not one based on political/xenophobic lines.
_____________________________________________
Fueled by "Cotes du Rhone" - WenWe

[redtail]

Who implied that work should be turned away? I believe we are suggesting that everyone should be paid more for the work that they perform. Why sell yourself short, is that how the pilot’s think? Are you losing the fight before it starts?

[Jango]

The JAA/CAA/FAA/ICAO should take more responsibility for the approvals they issue to any facility. It should be much harder for these facilities to get the approvals, that in essence take work away from home based companies. It should take into account more than just if the company have a copy of the ANO and take the surveyors out for a good lunch.

In UK it would only start by getting a good MP (ha frigging ha) to back the ALAE (once it was a recognised union) to lobby through parliament...drone, drone, hear hear, another scotch for the right reverend ... by which time most of us will be 143 yrs old and with any luck retired at least. But no doubt some company will find a method of preserving us in semi frozen state so they can still use our authorisations from the grave.

[reracker]

Way back when redtail started this topic, he started by saying the pilots had negotiated a new contract. Engineers and especially contractors have the ability to move around very easily. You could work for the worlds favorite today and be certifying for flying carpets tomorrow (many have!). Flight crew tend to stay in the same job, get perks for seniority and therefore more money (expenses, best routes). I totally agree that the ALAE should represent us ALL, and as a proper union. There is a rumour that JMC hold there engineers in higher esteem that first officers (hooray). A nice prescident. As the skills shortage starts to bite and before the JAA start to give licences away to our european cousins, we need to take a stand and close the pay and conditions gap with the pilots. They do have a tough job. They also have a tough union and they get suitably paid. We also have a tough job, the other two would be nice as well.