who upset engineering??

[lalapanzi]

So who upset the engineer - this posted in the SLF section http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm2/cwm14.gif
__________________________________________
Why is it that airline pilots have such a high opinion of themselves and their profession? Surely they are just operators of a mode of transport, the same as bus drivers. Although saying that bus drivers dont have the same level of automation the modern jet pilot has and probably have to work harder. Is'nt it time airlines realised that these people are taking the p*** with their high salaries and expensive benifits. Would'nt it be better to pay the engineers more instead. These guys must be the true proffesionals in the industry.
____________________________________________

[Kiwiconehead]

Now that's the man we should be listening to :)

[Lisa]

Couldn't agree more. Although Pilots have an important job and are highly proffesional, the engineers have to have a far higher knowledge base and are consistently underpaid and underappreciated. They commonaly have to have extensive understanding off 3 or more a/c types.

...........................................

You break it we'll fix it !!


[This message has been edited by Lisa (edited 15 September 2000).]

[Capt PPRuNe]

Yep... whatever!!! :rolleyes:

Off to Engineers & Technicians forum with this one.


------------------
Capt PPRuNe
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

[exeng]

I have the greatest respect for our Engineers, after all it is they amongst others who keep us pilots in a job.

However to put things in perspective I'll say this. I used to work as an engine/airframe fitter (Airframe licence only on B.707) on B.707's and B.747's. Although the work was demanding at times , it was nowhere near as demanding as operating as an F/O or Capt. particularly in shorthaul ops., but longhaul also. The 18 years I spent as a Flight Engineer on longhaul could also at times be far more demanding then anything I had encountered on the ground. However what was particularly unpleasant whilst a Ground Engineer was the fact that one was expected to work in all kinds of weather. That could make for a good degree of hardship, particularly in the winter.

Also the maintenance of one's operating licence is a much more arduous affair than I was used to as an L.A.E., 4 days in the sim and an annual route check are not things we tend to look forward to.

I am not saying that you do not deserve more remuneration for you efforts, I'm sure you do. But then don't we all believe we deserve more.


Regards
Exeng

[CaptBlack]

The more money every one gets the better. The higher the responsibility the greater the pay. At the end of the day the Skipper is responsible for more. He/she has less time to make decisions. When was the last time an engineer lost his life when the @£$t hit the fan?

[Chad Helmuth]

Lisa,
did you have a lift called "LIL" ???

[near enuf is good enuf]

Danny,

I think you are well out of line sending this one "down here".
The original posting was querying who had upset engineering and I believe that was directed at flt deck.
I didn't realise that these forums were strictly for individual trades to discuss amongst themselves their own issues.
Personally I would have loved to have taken part in a lively discussion with "you boys and girls upfront" on this very topic.
Your comment "yep ... whatever :rolleyes: " leads me to believe that you have taken this personally which surprises me as you have always come across professionally. OK lalapanzi has gone overboard but we may have digressed into a sensible discussion.
SO COME ON DANNY AND PUT THIS ISSUE BACK WHERE IT BELONGS.

------------------
So that you may not be the martyred slaves of Time,
get drunk, get drunk,
and never pause for rest!
With wine, poetry, or vitrtue,
as you choose!"

[This message has been edited by near enuf is good enuf (edited 15 September 2000).]

[lalapanzi]

http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/nuts.gif think I left something vital out here. I cannot take credit for this posting, tis none other than Inspector Gadget, as posted in SLF.

Quite why it was posted there perhaps IG will tell us all.

I do agree with you though - foul play sending this out of the pilots arena http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/nono.gif unless of course Danny & co have something to hide http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net5/saiyan.gif

[fly4fud]

"lalapanzi" and others, I've been working 3 years as a Ground Mechanic, then as a Station Engineer for 9 years, then as a Flying Station Engineer for more than 8 years.
I am now in my second year as a pilot. Why should a pilot earn more?

- For the ones following the self improver route (such as myself), the outlay is important, around 70'000 US$ here in western Europe.
- In the company I work for, you have to pay for the type rating (do you have to do that?), meaning the 25'000 US$ spent are deducted monthly from my salary.
- To qualify as airline pilot you will need a few qualities such as ability for multitasking, multicrew work, reliability etc. Nowadays airline do employ only future Captains, no more "bare" copilots.
- Have to be fit. Example, as an Engineer if you don't feel too well (slight hangover...) you go to work, because it is still possible to work. Not if you are a pilot.
- Loss of licence. Eyesight, heart, etc, etc could all be reasons to lose your licence. Not if you are an Engineer.
- Responsability. Oh yes, as an Engineer you are responsible too, but believe me as a pilot you can do thousands of mistakes a day. You have to take decisions while flying. These have to be done quickly. As an Engineer, you have to decide too, but you "have time". You can tell the pilots to hold on, and then you go check your books and then eventually decide (or refer to the shift leader, maintenance control or whoever).
- Recurrency. As a pilot you are checked basically all the time (as you know with the ADAS for instance). You HAVE to perform. Annual, semi-annual (simulator) and annual route check will push you to the limits or over.
- Irregularities. Here all the niceties such as nightflights (ok, you work night shifts too), timezones, different climate, dry air, long shifts with no break (believe me I now fly quite often up to 8 hours a day, resulting in 11 hour duty, with no 5 minute break. Take-off late, hurry through cockpit prep during turnaround, and take-off again. On a longer flight (more than 1 hour block) you just get a chance to go to the loo.
- Public image. Being at work or off work, you are a first row company rep. The public, neighbours or customers, are watching you all the time. So you expected to behave and dress accordingly.
- Stress. Just doing a few approaches in bad weather, with the wrong Commander, running late and a few technical snags does it all. I garantee you that pilot is more stressful than Engineer!
- Health. Exposure to cosmic rays (no, please don't laugh!), bad (crew meals) irregular meals. Lack of sleep (ever heard about split duty?).
- Life expextancy. It just seems to me that many of my elederly colleagues go in their early sixties. Any stats?
So, those are just a few of the reasons I thought about.

So, if you still think pilots are overpaid, why don't you apply?

Ooops, I forgot, to top it all, you have to get along with the Engineers :) :)

[mriya225]

I have to fall in line with Capt.Black on this one...
I take enormous pride in being a good mechanic; there is a great deal of responsibility involved with the maintenance of aircraft.
Mechanics (or a/c maint. engineers, as my overseas brethren are called) are dramatically underpaid and chronically under-appreciated. But this does not, in turn, mean that pilots are overpaid or over-appreciated.
There is something quite compelling to the argument that we (as mechanics) don't have to go down with the aircraft when there is no other alternative. Although every good mechanic feels that responsiblitiy, it is not in the realm of our immediate consequence. Besides, trying to compare performing maintenance with the piloting of aircraft is inherently ridiculous. They are fundamentally different functions.
A good pilot knows, that they can only be as good as their aircraft will allow, and that that aircraft is only as good as the people who maintain it. So while pilots may not take the time to walk up and pat you on the back day after day - every time that a/c completes a cycle without incident, that is your pat on the back. It's part and parcel of what we do - we work in the background, and it stays that way ONLY if we're doing our jobs well.
If you, as a mechanic, end up in the spotlight - you've royally (how do you lot say it...) bulloxed...something up! In our business, no news is the best news.

[Bus429]

I'm just back from "Pilots' Salaries" in "JetBlast". Near enough the same sort of thread here but I think any sniping should really be confined to JB.
Come on down!
BTW, Danny, you seem rather exasperated.


[This message has been edited by Bus429 (edited 16 September 2000).]

[Inspector Gadget]

Yes it was me! Sorry guys, just trying to inject some life into an otherwise sad forum. Pilots, please dont take it seriously,it was only a joke!

[WenWe]

New to this site - but i'm glad to see that the "them & us" slanging match is alive & well..... NOT!!!

Can we all accept that without any of the small cogs in this big cheese (Pilots/Engineers/Cabin Crew/Loaders/Pax Handling/Fueler's/ETC.) the show will not go on.

Why try to do others down? Fight the good fight together. Remember "divide & rule" is the mantra of the oppressors.

What have the Romans ever done for us?

All out Brothers!

[mriya225]

WenWe,

Don't be put off by a little lively conversation luv - there is little doubt that all of us have a great appreciation for one another - otherwise we'd all be pussyfooting around with politically correct posts, one after another (dull, dull, dull).
When push comes to shove we all stand united - no questions asked!
So stick around, and get to know these people - they're some of the brightest minds in the field today; you'll be glad to know them. :)

[This message has been edited by mriya225 (edited 17 September 2000).]

[trapper]

Why shouldn't pilots have a high opinion of themslves? Their job involves proffesionalism as does ours. When it comes to pay, who can argue that we are not trailing behind when you consider the four year apprenticeship plus on average a further 3 years to become licensed. However this is not a reason to knock the pilots as we should aspire to match the salaries that some of them draw.

[groncher]

I'm inclined to agree with trapper. Perhaps the one thing that really separates pilots &
maintenance is that pilots had the foresight and enough unity amongst their group to make
things the way they are. My Union contract
reads like a comic book compared to our pilots. I also have to admit I haven't been
overly active in making a change for the better. In my experience, we maintenance types, as a group, seem to lack a certain
finesse in presenting ourselves as a body of
professionals. Any ideas on how we could
manage an international change in the perception of our responsibilities and skills? How many times have you heard someone say they want the guy up front to be
very well-paid and happy? I don't think the
public paritcularly want to know that airplanes require maintenance, but I believe
the public plays a very big part in determining pay levels of those responsible
for their lives, and the ultimate goal of our
profession getting the recognition it deserves will be greatly influenced by our
public image. Bring on the ideas!

[mriya225]

trapper & groncher,

Good points, all of them!
Would either of you agree that our lack of presentation is, at least in part, owing to a kind of defeatism pervasive in our collective mentality?
I have meet so many extremely talented people in this field, but get them talking about our pay scales, benefits, and future outlook - it's like pulling the pin on a grenade. The first response is invariably anger and it never quite seems to progress beyond that point. They're all so conviced it can never get any better that they just grumble (in varying degrees http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif) and then give up.
I couldn't agree with groncher more that we need to search for, or create, an organization that is better able to represent our collective interests with finesse.
Pilots have extraordinary solidarity. In addition, their representation very skillfully forges and maintains respect for the people they represent, as well as strength at the bargaining table. I feel that typical representation for mechanics may have a lot to do with our public image.
So what now? Considering that we work hand in hand with pilot's to make safe and successful commercial flight possible; maybe an added division of the major pilots' unions - that works in tandem with their established strength? Or perhaps a new international organization for AMT's modeled after those organizations?
Whatever the answer, I am absolutely sure of one thing--we only stand to lose behind being divisive with pilots.

[This message has been edited by mriya225 (edited 18 September 2000).]

[Jango]

The solidarity shown by crews is commendable and unfortunately engineers in the UK have always suffered with the "British malaise"when it comes to sticking together for a cause. Companies of course have always shown more leniency towards crews demands than engineers. If push came to shove and your pilots walked out, they are hard to replace. Sadly for engineers, there is always a third party facility or contract agency, home or abroad who can do the maintenance on the aircraft at minimal disruption.

Engineers and Crews have always sniped at each other and it is all part of the banter that forms a working relationship. All professions have it and ours is no different. I like nothing better than a good flt crew put down and did it yesterday at lunch, and very enjoyable it was too. So any crews or engineers who take the banter to heart...lighten up.

As many have stated previously, the only way is to organise ourselves better and have the unions take our cases seriously. The idea of a combined union for crews and engineers is actually not a bad one, even if it were only for representation purposes for a start.

Is that the "Internationale"I can hear playing in the background ???

Out Brothers Out

[This message has been edited by Jango (edited 18 September 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Jango (edited 18 September 2000).]

[groncher]

I tend to think that any affiliation with a
pilot union would automatically put us in
second place, and also that they would not
want us. I think much of the problem with
maintenance representation at carriers is due
to contracts that are providing coverage for
too many diverse occupations (eg: baggage
handlers far outnumber technicians at most
airlines)Air Canada technicians are lumped in
with ramp, baggage, *pastry chefs*, and I
forget what all else. I am not being superior or judgemental to these people, but
I don't see how an AMT, AME,A&P can ever
achieve the status due when hugely outnumbered by groups with vastly different
interests and goals. Regarding the malaise
Jango mentioned, I read an excellent article
a few years ago about the difference between
pilots and maintenance technicians. The
upshot of it was that most technicians are
self-rewarding (take pleasure in a job well
done, and don't need outside approval) where
pilots are generally desirous of outside
approval. Apparently we also like to take
care of things ourselves, and don't like to
admit we can't do something. Pilots have no
problem being a squeaky wheel if it gets them
what they want. My point is, I don't think
it is necessarily a malaise on our part (I'm a Canadian AME, Jango, same thing here!) but
more of a personality type that chooses this
line of work, and we may be our own worst
enemies when it comes to asking for the
compensation we are due. I'm hopeful the
technician shortage will give us a big boost
in negotiating power, but also think power
through shortage isn't the full answer to
attaining the degree of respect most of us
would like to have, but don't like to ask for. (or DEMAND!)

[groncher]

What did I do? Reader's Digest typesetting.
going to bed now, I'll figure it out tomorrow.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Frankly the piloting establishment do themselves far more favours than we do ourselves. Look at the numbers

- To become a technician, about 5 years
- To become a CEng, minimum 8 years (I got in on the old rules with 7 years), usually nearer 10-12
- To become a frozen ATPL, can be done in a year, usually nearer 3 admittedly. Another 18 months of right hand seat flying will give the full ticket.

What the pilots did (and quite right) is make their tickets licenses to practice. Reach the required standard, or leave - very simple. Why the hell don't we do the same in Engineering (yes I know that there are CAA licenses etc. but hangars and design offices are full of people without them, using somebody elses qualifications and signature - you'd never stand for that in a cockpit would you!).

G

[10W]

And from the BA vs RAF thread on the Military Forum, our correspondent YakYak shows their opinion of civvy engineers............

Try making a comparison between driving and flying. You can either:

a) Drive a large bus along a pre-determined route, letting the computer do 99% of everything for you, dependant upon a ground crew who fell into their job because they didn't try hard at school - and that hate you for being better than them; or

b) Drive an F1 racing car around a difficult and taxing circuit at stupid speeds, supported by a pit crew made up of the most skilled people in the profession willing you to suceed.


From a wannabe, who I guess has obviously never had any dealings with aircraft engineering staff (civil or mil), those sorts of comments are a little rich.

I have several good friends in engineering, some civil, some military, and they're all dedicated professionals. Unlike our poster in the Mil Forum http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

------------------
10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by 10W (edited 18 September 2000).]

[Blacksheep]

Part of the problem lies in defining "engineer" Genghis is a C.Eng so he obviously qualifies. The LAE still earning his reputation at the sharp end, and with whom most pilots are familiar, is in all honesty a technician. To compare salaries with pilots it is necessary to compare like with like. The ATPL holding "Heavy" Captain is at the top end of the profession, having put his time in. His equivalent in engineering is the high time, high qualification engineer, usually in the "back-room" or perhaps the hangar foreman with his team of fifty or more technicians and responsibility for everything that happens on his watch. I am an LAE, most of us are, that's how we usually start out. I've been at the sharp end on the Line and in the Hangars, but the license is the least of my qualifications. I rate my degree and thirty plus years of experience a bit higher up the scale. In pay and conditions I come a long way behind even the ordinary First Officer, (possibly because there is no trade representation for people like myself? Also, if we withdraw our labour no-one notices for a couple of months :))

Do I or my fellows contribute as much as a Captain? I don't know, there is no way to measure such equivalence. What I do know is that we are getting fewer and fewer all the time. I love meddling with aeroplanes, that's why I do my job, its not just the money. However it gets harder to resist the offer of a non-aviation job with share scheme participation, company BMW and much nicer salary and conditions. In the not too distant future there may be yet another hole in the list of old-timers. Certainly my place will be taken by another, the indispensable man doesn't exist. The thing that ought to be of concern to pilots and public alike is that there are fewer and fewer people entering aviation engineering and thus fewer people on the ladder. The safety record isn't getting any worse, the accident rate is more or less static. Does this mean there is no problem? I don't think so. If there was no problem the accident rate would be contiually reducing towards the ideal of zero. Engineering compensation is at least part of the problem and as the pilots continue to grab more than their fair share of the revenue the day when they will really earn their inflated salaries gets ever closer.

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Genghis the Engineer]

I agree absolutely with both 10W and Blacksheep, the question is what do we do about it?

I try hard as a company Chief Engineer to only employ properly qualified people, and keep them properly trained, up to date, and as well rewarded as I can (which isn't very). But the cards are stacked against me - what do you do if you advertise for a CEng job and none apply?, you get a mix of self-taught and just graduated and have to get somebody to do the work. (Answer, employ the best of the bunch on probation and make becoming properly qualified both a condition and right of employment.)

I think the only answer is for the whole Engineering profession to unite and agree ground rules. Last year it became illegal to call yourself an osteopath in the UK without all the proper qualifications, why the hell is this not yet the case with Engineering? As a profession we have existed for several centuries without solving this, which is not very impressive.

Who to blame? I'd start with the EngC, who really should be doing something about this but isn't. Every year I see the EngC council elections, and I've yet to see a candidate whose policy is to make Eng.Tech / CEng / IEng a license to practice - as it is in France or Germany!

G

[mriya225]

Sounds to me like we're all pretty much in agreement here.
For 10W - I think your conclusion that the post in MIL forum was a "little rich" is probably very acurate and fair. It's easy to get defensive behind having to justify yourself as both someone who can turn a wrench and also possess a mind. I'm guilty of getting doing that myself when people get too cavalier about what it takes to be a decent mechanic. I don't know how it came to pass that people would see the tools come out and automatically assume that any monkey could do the work; shame on them, and I guess, shame on me too for getting rattled when they clearly just don't understand.
I have pretty good mechanical insticts and skills, but I also know that I can work on aircraft everyday for the next thirty years and I'm still going to be learning something new.
If pilots are able to over-inflate their salaries, that will eventually find it's way back to the mean - but it clearly illustrates what can be achieved with savvy respresentation and formidable solidairity. I envy them - and wish we had more of the same.

[redtail]

If only our unions had a good public relations department like the pilots have...

Seriously, the pilot's unions sell a professional product, and work very hard on their image. We should follow their example, even if it means recurrent testing and culling some deadwood.

[spannersatcx]

http://www.lae.mcmail.com
Associations are, by definition, a body of persons joined together for a common purpose. The ALAE is an Association registered as an Independent Trade Union. As such we may negotiate the terms and conditions for members where the ALAE is recognised by the Company.

Licensed Aircraft Engineers formed the ALAE when the United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority were looking to abolish the License that many Engineers held with pride - especially as it had been earned through personal effort, experience and knowledge.

Aircraft are increasingly becoming more sophisticated and, again, efforts have been made to remove the Engineers Licence. The ALAE has had to apply pressure to both the United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority and the European Joint Aviation Authority.

Engineers are the lifeblood of any Industrial organisation. The Aviation Industry is no exception. Its Engineers - many of whom are members of the ALAE - help to ensure the smooth, safe, low profile operation of that Industry.




Registered office:

Bourn House

8, Park Street

Bagshot

Surrey GU19 5AQ



Tel. ++44 (0)1276 474888




[This message has been edited by spannersatcx (edited 19 September 2000).]