After 3 months of looking got my first airline job.... AND I TURNED IT DOWN

[thereceiver2004]

Finished the IR in March this year.. been looking for a job ever since... nothing then all of a sudden three interviews on the cards.

i went for an interview last week with emerald....
got the phone call offered a job on the BAE 748 flying approx 3 hours per day... 18K etc etc etc..

BUT have to pay out 10+K for the rating to enter the hold for the "next available" job...

So I said NO !!! now think maybe i am mad.. but did not want to jump into the first thing that came along especially as they are the only people to fly this lovely by antique aeroplane..

if i have made a good move or bad.. we will only see...

TR2004

[topcat450]

Personally I think you did the right thing, as you said, a 748 type rating isn't going to be much use after Emerald.

[checks-complete]

Gutsiest move I ever saw, man ! :cool:

[Freebird17]

Probably the right decision. There are people out there who paid out for their TR training with Emerald...............and waited and waited and waited. Several were offered jobs with other airlines but I think there might be one or two still waiting.

Brave decision and I hope I would do the same if I was in your shoes.

[Canada Goose]

Each to his own, but it sounds like you made a sensible decision to me !! Good luck !:ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Never pass a job offer.

500hrs of experience later you'll find a whole host of airline more interested in your CV than now.

Mind you it is about the crumiest deal around. Been the springboard for many a pilots later glittering career though. Only three years ago people would have been climbing over each other for the job you just turned down.

Things are looking up. Expansion in the Middle East, India, Asia and China is really starting to bite now and there are NO contract pilots out of work anywhere. Pretty soon the deals to go Expat will start to get good enough to tempt people out of the less well paying/too hard working airlines.

When that happens things will get most interesting. I'd hate to be the mug that predicts a pilot shortage but a lot of people are uttering the words under their breath again.

Experienced capable Captains have been a rare commodity for some time now. Experienced capable First Officers are finding they have more career options right now and in time they will become a more rare commodity.

All good news for the Wannabes. So maybe turning down this job will prove to be a good move. Hindisght will be a wonderful thing.

Good luck,


WWW

[jamestkirk]

That must have been a tough decision. Some people on prune have said that they would do what you have just done. Not sure how many actually would have had the guts to do it.

To not sell yourself under what you think you are worth is a dignified decision.

Hopefully more will take your example and so try and improve T&C's by action (if needed).

I hope you find the job you want. That would make two of us!

[superstall]

Gutsy move turning down a first job, even if it was on the 748!

Hope the other interviews work out for you

[YYZ]

I would like to think I would of done the same as you, But until it happens I don't know if I would? However, I totally understand your logic, Seems sensible.

Good luck with your future, I am sure it will come together?

YYZ

[Bean75767]

On your head be it! This post may sound angry but it is not supposed to so I apologise now.
As WWW said earlier, 500 hours of flying about in a commercial environment will send you to the top of the tree for interviews and type ratings for next spring and autumn 2006. I hope for your sake that you are not in the same position next year. 18K with a bond is not unreasonable for the experience you will get. If you work your sums, 500 hours will put you in the frame for that currently illusive jet job on a salary of about £35k with flight pay and extras taking you to about 40ish. I don't believe that the bond would warrant not leaving and paying it off. Always take the first job you are offered or why did you apply in the first place? Once you are in it is fairly easy to move about, I hope you don't stay on the outside too long. This industry is only so big, and all the training captains and fleet managers know each other if only by association. I hope this move doesn't return to bite you on the @rse.!!

[cavortingcheetah]

;) The 748 is a brilliant machine. At 21,000kgs (or thereabouts) it's heavier than an F27, and really comes close to being a Heavy Turbo Prop. (If you ever want a laugh, check out the drill for radio crate failure).(Very British).
As a stepping stone I would have thought the job a good idea.
After all, if you stuck it for a while and then moved on to jets; your increased pay would very soon allow you to make up the £10k you'd already forked out.
But the idea that you should spend a lot of money and then enter a holding pool is, in my opinion, usurious. In fact, I wonder whether such a requirement on their part is even legal?
I am sure that six months after you'd finished the rating you would be told that you were no longer current - more conditions, more moolah!
Let me refer you to the website: www. bad-aviationjobs.com, there you will find mention of Emerald under the paragraph on Eastern.
A lucky escape, I should have thought.
Good luck anyway.
:=

;) Sorry to butt in again.

I have just read Bean75767. If you were actually offered a flight job then I must agree absolutely with him. I was under the impression that you paid your 10k and entered a pool.
If a decent heavy turbine job is available; go for it with both hands. You will indeed then be Cock Robin after the magic 500 ours.:)

[Meeb]

Why do people not read properly...:rolleyes:

Bean, old bean, the guy has been asked to pay 10 grand up front, a very big gamble knowing how this company operates with regards actually getting a start with them. If it was a bond, then yes take it, but pay up front is a different matter.

thereceiver2004, who are the other interviews with?

[Bean75767]

Just Re-read it. The bit that stood out was "got a call & offered Job". A bit of research on Emerald would show fairly high turn over of staff so holding time not likely to be that long. However nothing to stop one accepting offer and carrying on search with at least 'something in the bag'. If thinking of spending that kind of money on a type rating then try other t-prop operators too. You never know who might need a self sponsoring F/O at this time of year. Good Luck

[Pin Head]

Bad move mate, lets say there was a terrorist attcak on a BA jumbo tommorrow or a 9/11 event. You would be stuffed for 5 years. What is wrong with people nowadays, a licence is not a right to a job. Yes the market is good but unless your high houred you cannot be so fussy.

Good luck.

[Leo8]

I dont think it was a bad move really. I think you might be better off funding something like an ATR rating. It wont cost much more and there are loads of ATR operators worldwide.

[salapilot]

Sorry Bean and WWW, but there was no "job offer" just another rip off scheme ! If there was a concrete offer of a job, then you could argue your point. I personally think receiver made the right choice and should be commended for it !

Well done mate !
sp

[Germstone]

if emerald want crews they will have to pay for the TR and bond



emerald as a company is on rocky ground at the moment so it could be 10K of your hard earned being wasted if they do go under.

I say plucky move and if there is any and i mean any other job take it

i would steer clear of emerald at all costs take it from someone whos been there

as mentioned in other threads

great crews/engineers /support staff BUT crap management with no management skills between them and a tyrant CEO

[Mobster lover]

Good decision. None of the naysayers have ever worked for this shower....

Avoid!!

[SKY's4ME]

Personally I would have said yes as at least it is a secured start on the long ladder and it is a better place to start than other possibilities!
However you have taken a brave step and now other options are available such as mentioned before the ATR/Dash are becoming highly sought after recently and a great place to start from ratings starting at around £16000-£18000 (a bit more than 10k though?)

[GASH !]

Well done for turning this down. How anyone can call paying £10,000 to put an obsolete type on their licence a ' secured start' is beyond me.

[Mercenary Pilot]

I know of at least 3 people who got nothing out of an earlier scheme having paid for thier own TR. However, one of my mates attended a recent interview for Emerald and they told him things are on the up there and they need pilots. I told him to proceed with caution but I think the prospect of getting into a large aircraft will sway him into taking it. Personally, I think turning it down is the right choice but I would be interested to find out whos paid and who is actually flying the line.

Good luck to everyone involved whatever they decide.

P.S. Ive also heard that Atlantic are probably going to take over Emerald? Rumour or truth? Is that a good thing for the new pilots or not? :confused: Anyone know?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If the £10k doesn't buy you the job plus type rating with no bond then that's different.

Perhaps on reflection there are better ways of spending £10k if there is any real risk of Emerald never giving you a job or going bust. One of the problems at Emerald is the lack of flying hours.

You might well be able to fly another small operator willing to take you and your £10k type rating donation on. Who will then give you a lot more hours.

Or there are options such as flying instruction - there's a real shortage developing and terms and conditions are improving as a result.

Good luck,

WWW

[Germstone]

one of my mates attended a recent interview for Emerald and they told him things are on the up there and they need pilots


there hardly going to turn round and say there on there arse are they ?

after all if they did would you want to take a job with them

[YYZ_Instructor]

Don't worry about it at all!

I did the same thing with Emerald....You are better off not flying with them. I fly to Liverpool almost everyday and the operation is horrible. If you type rate yourself on any of those planes, the next time you will ever see one after is in a museum. Since I know a lot about the Euromanx deal, I can tell you that Emerald won't be lasting long on the Isle of Man either.....so those ATP's won't be flying.

Smart move to walk away from that... I did and there are probably a few others out there that have as well!

Good luck with real work....

G

[Say again s l o w l y]

Have a look at the thread in the Freight Dogs section about the Emerald Sheds.

Then pass comment.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=185012

[thereceiver2004]

Part of the reason i turned it down was the fact I can not get the cash quickly for such a risky outlay.

also a friend of mine has told me there are plans from Air Contractors to base an ATR at Bournemouth to do mail runs to the channel islands.... i was thinking surely there is not that mail to warrant two companies doing the runs...

Anyway good move or bad.. i will have to wait and see and continue my search.. to all of you looking good luck

TR

[silverknapper]

Would say you have done right. I heard recently of two guys who forked out and still haven't started a course. Not sure if they'll go bust - people have been saying it for years and they always sem to keep going. If I were spending £10k I agree with above. Get an ATR, dash 8 or even jetstream 32/41. You should then be able to get a job no problem.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

But the I've been hearing that Emeralds about to go bust since I became a Wannabe in 1997 and it ain't ever happened.

There's no right answer on this one.

Cheers

WWW

[Say again s l o w l y]

To be fair, the mantra "Emerald is on the way out" was an old and tired one. Emerald never had any debt and owned all their own a/c. They may have looked crap, but the company was pretty rosy (financially).

Life has changed hugely since the ATP's were bought and Streamline was purchased. All of a sudden the company had a mountain of debt and not enough know-how to actually get these new purchases up and running properly.

Fast forward a couple of years............. They are now in the do-do.

This might be personal opinion, but thereciever has made a good call in my book.

[Mercenary Pilot]

there hardly going to turn round and say there on there arse are they ?

You dont say, thanks for that :rolleyes:

Actually my mate says they were quite up front about alot of things, like the fact that most of the pilots hired are just there to build up hours and they accept that. Still I think hes going to make a bad choice...

I noticed Atlantic are advertising for ATP captains, correct me if im wrong but AA dont have ATP's....yet!;)

[moku]

It was the right thing to do!!

Well done mate! If I was offered that last year I doubt I'd have the balls to have done the same.

Best move though.

Moku.

[Officer Dibbles]

agreed, good move. If you have any doubt about anything that involves paying out then it is best to hang on to your cash.;)

[angelorange]

a brave move

since sept 11 lots of operators have either left their entry salary's low, introduced a B or C scale or expect you to fork out for a type rating - even if no other firm operates the type!

Be careful what you sign...

[timzsta]

How many hours do you have? I spoke to Emerald a few months ago and they told me they don't accept applications from people with less then 1000hrs.

Have their requirements changed? Or was it the fact you were willing to pay for your TR that got them interested in you?

Different things can interest different airlines. I had an assessment with a jet operator recently (sadly didn't make the grade) but they told me they were interested in me because my notice period with my (non-aviation related) employer is just 2 weeks.

[Mercenary Pilot]

They had an open day recently and as far as I know there was no minimum requirements (other than fATPL). My pal definitly hasnt got 1000hrs.

[The Red Max]

requirement was min 1000 hrs OR to live near a base

[Germstone]

requirement was min 1000 hrs OR to live near a base

mmm yeah i can see there logic :confused:

because being a mile from a base is as good as having a 1000hrs!!

[Fretwanger]

Turned it down!!!
Bravo, you have big balls, your a better man than me, amongst many...

[Mr R Sole]

You made the best move. At least you won't have to get a pair of flying goggles and a silk flying scarf!:D

[Ice Magna]

Hi All

I have been invited to the open day coming very soon. Going through the posts I am getting very unsure of the prospects at emerald.

Can anybody offer an advice on whether its better to go through CTC or get a job with Emerald as i have been invited to Stage two of CTC as well.

Replies very much appreciated

Thanks

Ice:ok:

[Say again s l o w l y]

CTC without even thinking about it.

[Bluebaron]

Well done for having the balls to turn the job down. If more pilots did it then T & C's will improve and airlines would have to pay out themselves.

Unfortunatly CTC is effectivly the same thing, If nobody went there then airlines would have to recruit directly pay the type rating and pay their recruits decent money. However as it seems unlikley that inexperienced guys are not going to turn down the chance of working on a jet for peanuts for 6 months then you might as well go for it.

It took me 5 years from finishing my ATPL to secure my first airline job. Even without sept 11th it would have been 3 1/2. So don't give up. I believe some one was doing poll to see how long the average guy/girl takes. 18 months seems to be the norm.

BB ;)

[hazehoe]

Looks to me your not only paying for the TR, the "pool" thing is anybody's best guess.


letter,

--------We are pleased to invite you to our pilot recruitment day at the Holiday Inn Hotel at Runcorn on Thursday 25th August commencing at 0900hrs local. Directions are attached.

During this open day we will tell you more about the operations of Emerald Airways and you will have the opportunity to ask any questions that are relevant to the position you are seeking.

The format of the open day will be a company presentation lasting for up to an hour followed by open question time and completed by way of individual interviews of approximately 15 minutes each. These 15 minute time slots will be allocated on the day.

You will need to bring with you your licence, MCC certificate, log books etc to back up the information supplied with your CV.

The reason for this open day is that we are looking to increase our pool of First Officers on all three fleets for varying bases throughout the UK and Europe. An MCC Course Certificate is essential for all posts. It is expected that those looking to join the BAe 748 fleet will be recruited first with courses for the BAe ATP scheduled for October and November of this year.

Emerald Airways operates a self-sponsored type rating system for all new FO's, the costs of which are outlined below.

BAE ATP £11,000

BAe 748 £10,000

SHORTS SD3-60 £9,000

The course costs include all ground-school training and examination fees as well as all flight training including the LST. In addition the First Aid training, Aviation Security and Dangerous Air Cargo training, Fire and Smoke training and CRM training is covered in these costs. Accommodation if required is not covered in the cost of the course.

Please respond ASAP if you are not able to attend.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------:(

[Ice Magna]

Hi All

How about working there for a year getting some multi time/hours and move on to some better operator.

I understand the aircrafts are no future but the 20,000 plus weight rating will add a shine to the CV.

I may seem inclined towards Emerald but like everybody else it will be my first job if offered.

Ice :confused:

[sabre 60]

Ice


I'm not in a position to tell you what a job is and what not, but do you believe that maybe waiting in a poole for months after you already paid for your own TR , and maybe be put to work part time after that is a job? I would say that if you pay 10 or 11k in pounds for a TR that you can not use anywhere else, the least you can ask for is to start flying what you just PAID for.

I'm sorry, i get more and more upset every time i see that there is no limit to what some poeple are willing to put up with.

Without turning this into a self funding discussion, i hope that poeple who jump on the first opportunity they see, without any regard to the conditions, understand what they are doing to the industry in the long term.

I have very little faith that some of you will wake up,instead of working the fuel truck or taking any other job out there ,will try to force there way in without thinking about anybody else, and maybe do a lot more damage to this industry then you would feel good about if you really knew how much it was!

[TwoDeadDogs]

Jesus wept! That shower want you to pay for the Fire, Dangerous goods, etc as well. Stuff that any decent company gives you because it's the law. I'm surprised you don't have to bring your own bogroll, teacup and ream of paper for the copier, as well. It just goes to show, FR didn't start the trend of ripping off pilots, Emerald are way ahead of them on that!
You made a good decision. Let scammers like Emerald rot.
regards
TDD

[Ice Magna]

Thanks everybody

I understand ur point and i share the same opinion.

The airlines should invest in people like they do in any other sector and should not manipulate them just because they are desperate.

I think I will go there to attend the interview and put this point across. May be this moves the stone a bit.

Ice :ok:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Any one thinking of doing the Shed rating take heed, ALL the Emerald Shorts have been put up for sale recently.

Don't say you weren't warned.......

[tonker]

After 4 years of instructing and looking got my first job.......and took it gratefully.:ok:

ps not with Emerald

[Air Mail]

Say Again Slowly

Get your facts straight before you post your rubbish and scaremongering here.

Three of the sheds are for sale, as they were during your unproductive time with the company.

Emerald have gained a several new contracts recently.

[Say again s l o w l y]

So it's suddenly changed to only 3 for sale? Or was it 3 all along?

Good. I rather hoped that none of my ex-colleagues would be in the cr*p.

As for rubbish and scaremongering, have a look at the post in the Freight Dogs section. If you know who put that info up originally, you wouldn't doubt its validity. Why would he have put the info up now if they had been for sale for a long period?

Just a quick question, how many of them are worth buying?

Unproductive? Moi? I think you're confusing me with rostering!

[Germstone]

Emerald are very good at gaining contracts...its holding onto them that are the problem.

Similar situation with staff they have a very high turnover....

Reason being as soon as you realise what you have let yourself in for you know its only a matter of time before you go onto pastures new.

In all my years I have never worked for a more poorly run organisation ever and thats saying something.

Crews and engineers great...rest of em cant do there job for toffee

all IMO of course :-)

[Parcelpup]

Air Mail (sorry,MOB)

Say Again Slowly.
Get your facts straight before you post your rubbish and scaremongering here.
Three of the sheds are for sale, as they were during your unproductive time with the company.

Interesting reply. Before you attack other people, you should tell the whole story. Perhaps, if you are being honest, you should actually point out that the website says that there are a choice of 10 Sheds. Thats the whole fleet.

Further several of these are permanently grounded and no longer airworthy.

So what Emerald's website says isn't actually true, is it?

Apart from the willingness of the company to rip people off for training on a fleet that might not exist soon, you have to wonder about the job security of those remaining. The company previously refused to let any crews transfer off the Sheds onto the ATP unless they paid over £10,000 for it.

For new starters, it could be a case of losing your job on the Sheds when they are sold or paying another 10k for an ATP rating.

An ATR rating would be a much better deal I think. At least they are still in production.

[sabre 60]

ice manga

quote
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I will go there to attend the interview and put this point across.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"hazenhoe" posted that this"Interview" was taking place on the 25th August.

Where did you move the "stone" , hope you did not sign any off the B.S. contracts



:ugh:

[Piltdown Man]

Sir, you are a sensible man. They want you, they pay!

[Ice Magna]

Hi

I went there and CEO said:

1. They ask for the TR to be paid by the individual so that he can stay a bit longer owing to there high turn over.

2. Its a norm for the low cost operators to do this due to the nature of the business.

My question:

Do you want to wait for the first jet job and then pay £20,000+ for the TR (In most of the cases nowadays)? or

Gain some experience to make yourself valuable so that you can be employed by bigger operators to get TR free.

The industry is all about timing and employability which are very sensitive to the things happening all around the World.

I will wait what they say and then look at the broader picture to evaluate my situation.

Thanks

Ice Magna :ok:

[starman2001]

this company has contacted me 1 year ago.
I turned it down too.

I had to pay my type rating, with no guarantee.
It sounded to me they wanted make some cash from me.

they have not replied to my emails.So why should I bother???