Rooivalk crashes

[Deanw]

Air Force chopper crashes

03/08/2005 18:09

Pretoria - An Air Force helicopter crashed in Bloemfontein on Wednesday, the SA National Defence Force said.
No one was hurt in the accident, said spokesperson Ronald Maseko.

The Rooivalk helicopter based at 16 Squadron at Air Force Base Bloemspruit in Bloemfontein was on a routine flight when the accident occurred.

Maseko described the accident as an "uncontrolled landing".

Although the two crew were not injured they were referred for medical examinations as part of procedure.

A board of inquiry had been convened to investigate the accident, Maseko said.

News24

[B Sousa]

"Maseko described the accident as an "uncontrolled landing". "

I love that term. Lots of postings here lately on the greatness of African Aviation. One that hits home is in the Majors that said that they comprise 3% of the worlds Airline traffic and 28% of the worlds Airline accidents.
Then there are all the other Aviation assets.........

[barryt]

More taxpayer's money down the "tjoep". But hey, it's a drop in the ocean compared to what we're giving Bob now...

[Latent Heat]

..... prepare for some more petrol price increases...:mad:

[itaxi]

Gawd, no they have to wait another 12 years before enyone might show interest in perhaps buying one at less 50%.
That piece of crap has been exhibited everywhere in the world and they have not sold ONE over the last 12 years.
So, nothing to lose actually.

[Check Revs]

iTaxi,

If I remember correctly "that piece of crap" showed up the Apache a couple of times at airshows throughout the world. Were it not for the for the almighty Yanks(or was it wankers- sorry Bert) and their political influence thoughout the world, the sale of the Rooivalk might have been a different story.

True story -

I was commander of an Oryx a number of years ago during Ops Unitas in Puerto Rico. Before the Vertreps and Decklandings the Yanks, Canadians, Brasilians were o-so friendly. They hadn't seen an Oryx before so it obviously drew a lot of attention.

During the exercise we were paired with a Seahawk to drop off and collect our respective commanders on an island. We had a our Navy Commandore on board and they their Marines General. At the pick-up they took off before us and had about a 2 mile headstart before we lifted off. The yanks still said to us "we'll wait for you". We told him not to bother we'll catch up. Within 6 miles we caught up and passed them. I believe they are were looking for parking. His next comment was "Allright we'll slot in behind you" We didn't slow down and went straight to our ship. Still remember quite clearly them passing overhead just as our blades slowed to a stop after shutdown on deck.

After the exercise we went over to their ship to do the customary swap of momento's and plaques as we did with the others. They didn't even bother to invite us on board or to reciprocate the gesture. They obviously didn't enjoy the fact that they weren't the best in everything.

All of us, (Poms, Canadians and South Americans minus the Yanks) had a massive pissup that night. What do I remeber about that night? - not much, except that the Canadians came up with a concoction callled "Moosemilk" which gives the biggest babbelas.

Getting back to the Rooivalk - Even though the crew wasn't injured, it's never good news to hear about any aircraft crash or incident.

Deano, Any more info about the accident?

CR

;) ;)

[Gunship]

Ahh Chech Revs ... could have only be you ... Harry T told me about the story :ok:

itaxi " That piece of crap" happend to out "perform" the Apache on various aspects.

It is a well known fact that the Pom pilot's chose the Rooivalk ahead of the Apache when they did. I can not remember on the engineering side but definately from the pilot's side of things. (Those that count the most) ;)

A bit worrying to me is the "Beeld's" news which states that it hit the ground while on auto-pilot :hmm:

Well that is newspapers I pressume. Erika Gibson was dit jou berig ? :E:E:E

Cheers

Gunsss :}

[itaxi]

You guys crack me up.
Why has NONE been sold if it is better than the apache ?
waiting !

Stop looking at it from a pilots perspective, look at it from an engineering perspective and international armarments compatability.

On the other hand, maybe it was never marketed properly because a slogan like "better than the yanks" was just not true !

[Grizzly Bare]

My recollection on the lack of sales was that the Yanks would not allow the aircraft to be a platform for their weapons systems - so regardless of how good a machine it was, without teeth it would be as much use as a H269. :(

[Deanw]

Sorry guys, forgot to post this yesterday:

The following is a rough translation of an Afrikaans article that appeared in Die Beeld yesterday. Please excuse the translation, maar my Afrikaans is nie baie goed nie!


Rooivalk helicopter flies into ground during test

A Rooivalk attack helicopter of 16 Squadron in Bloemfontein flew into the ground during a test flight yesterday - on the day that a report was presented to the Parliamentary defence committee which stated that another R600 million was needed over the next three years for the helicopters development.

According to the airforce, the the accident occured when the helicopter was on a routine test flight in the vicinity of the Bloemspruit airforce base. The two crew were not injured, but had undergone a medical checkup as part of standard procedures.

They are full of blue bruises and scrapes, but were able to walk when they were taken to hospital for the checkup.

The helicopter in yesterdays accident was brand new with less than 100 flight hours. The automatic pilot? ('outomatiese hangvlug-meganisme') had just been installed and the pilots were on a test flight to test its functionality.

The helicopter was on autopilot when it flew into the ground.

The main rotor was severely damaged and the nose section broke off, but it is not yet known if the helicopter will be written-off.

The report of the defence committee stated that R200 million per year for the following three years was required for the Rooivalk project, as well as a further R40 million annually for operations, of which R10 miilion would be needed to buy missiles.

The report indicated that Rooivalk sales had been hampered by the political nature of arms sales and the lack of sufficient weapons testing.

Twelve helicopters have been delivered to the South African Air Force but weapons and certain test involving advanced night flying and electronic warfare self-protection systems were still being integrated.

The helicopter's development was further retarded with the restructuring of its primary contractor, Denel, and the recruiting of and retaining of skilled personnel staff.
This is the second time that the Rooivalk has been involved in an flight accident. The first time was when one of the helicopters performed an emergency landing outside Pretoria and landed in an Aardvark hole during a test flight. The test flight was performed after the helicopter had been to Denel for maintenance.


Grizzly Bare wrote:

My recollection on the lack of sales was that the Yanks would not allow the aircraft to be a platform for their weapons systems - so regardless of how good a machine it was, without teeth it would be as much use as a H269.


That\'s what I\'ve been told too. The British wanted to hang the Hellfire on the Rooivalk, but the Americans refused to integrate the Hellfire on the Rooivalk, because, they said, of the embargo against Armscor.

Very convenient that embargo :E

[worsmasjien]

Before the fixed wing boys fly off the handle, the Rooivalk has auto hover etc, all for low level work so do not make hasty judgements without knowing the facts! The machine can do an autoland(of sorts). I know a few boys at 16 and none will fly a machine into the ground on auto pilot, no affirmative action there!

[C4]

Sounds like the "auto" part of the auto-hover system did not work too well...:O :O

[itaxi]

The arms embargo was lifted in 1996 !!!!!!!!!

anyway - anything that falls from the sky is not good, irrespective.

[Recuperator]

It is unfortunately a known fact that the Americans dominate the weapons industry by various means, mostly politically and by various forms of manipulation or bullying or what many would call plain and simple blackmail.

Either, as a foreign country, you buy American weapons/weaponry or they will boycott you on the other armaments you require or might already have e.g. fighter jets, tanks or whatever it may be.

If you don't buy American, they will just stop providing you with spares, back-up, training etc, etc and face it, no country can financially afford to just dump billions worth of sophisticated, expensive military hardware.

Not even the Iranians, sworn enemies of the Americans that are still operating F4's and F14 Tomcat's out of Bushehr and various other Bell Helicopter products around Iran, mostly bought in the days when the Shah's government had a good relationship with the Americans. Now I ask you, how do you maintain machines of that nature, so many years down the line, since the Shah's rule has come to an end without having a constant supply of parts??

And where are these parts manufactured?? America perhaps?? :confused:

Withholding or threatening to withhold, in whichever way it's masterminded, spares, training or back-up or by precluding a foreign country from future arms is a simple but efficient way of dealing with unwanted competition by a super power who’s economy thrives in war time and flourishes due to it’s weapons industry. The world has relentlessly been a testing ground for American weapons, 6 August and the atomic bomb proving this point.

Back to a superior fighting machine. The Rooivalk out performs the Apache and many other attack helicopters, in several aspects. It was the first helicopter of it's kind to demonstrate manoeuvrability only dreamt of by the American Apache. Rumour has it after the Rooivalk performed it’s loop at Farnborough, there was a mad scramble for the Americans to get clearance for the Apache to follow suite.

The Rooivalk, has been proven to be a better and more stable platform for weapons delivery, otherwise the French would not have gone with their design on the smaller Tigre Attack helicopter, which hasn’t been designed for exactly the same role as the Rooivalk.

The Rooivalk is also known for it’s excellent mechanically and electronic redundancy, probably much better than in others in it’s class.

Weapons are available, but not to a NATO compatible standard and that is where the Yanks have the upper hand, and will unfortunately have for the foreseeable future. This other than political and financial reasons and with the Americans practically giving away the Apaches to keep the market, the weapons was one of the major reasons why the UK, Australia and Malaysia and others all declined the agile and versatile Rooivalk.

Can you imagine the development the Rooivalk would have had if the same amount of research and development money spent on it’s as was spent on the Apache to get it to the Longbow status.

The South African Air Force pilot's flying the Rooivalk are top notch, well trained and I am sure on an even playing field, with similar weapons, it would be a mighty adversary to any other enemy attack helicopter or tank on the digital battlefield currently in the market today.

I still would not like to be on the receiving end of any of them, albeit a Rooivalk, the Apache or even Gunship’s favourite, the older, yet deadly Mi 24 Hind. :ouch: :ouch:

Speedy recovery to the SAAF boys and hopefully they will patch up your machine real quick.

It's proven it's survivability in a crash twice now, giving it's airmen a chance to fight another day. There has unfortunately been many more deaths in the Apache... Say no more...

[goaround7]

....yeah but how many apaches are out there flying and they've been in actual combat whereas the Rooivalk has never been battle tested ?

Face it guys, even if it is better, noone will buy it and they should stop wasting our money on it. Better scrap the project and buy some old Apaches or Hinds. Who is SA gonna fight that needs anything better anyway ?

[currawong]

Or maybe nobody wants to buy off the ANC.

Sorry fellas.

[itaxi]

Seldom have I read such utter crap re the acculades towards the Rooivalk. Yes, it has some good features but to blame the Americans for everything is obsurd. After the arms embargo was lifted SA could put weapons of any kind on the Rooivalk but they had nothing of interest to anyone.

Imagine FIAT asking GM to supply technology so that FIAT can boost sales !!!!

The Rooivalk was let down by the strategists IN SA NOT the USA.

Rhe embargo was also there for obvious reasons which are quite apparent today. Can you imagine Mugaabs getting a few Rooivalk and weaponary for nothing !!!

Wit olifant is the only word that comes to mind - sorry, but its the truth. My sympathies to the pilots who have no alternative but to think otherwise because they have nothing else to fly, when fuel is available.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

A foreign test pilot who is known to be pretty clued up on these matters once told me it's one of the best he's flown. Reckons it's a contender with the right toys in place.

TM mean anything to anyone?

[itaxi]

the potential vs the reality

The Sarie Marais is also a vessel with fighting capabilities with the right tools in place.

Geez !

and aids can be curbed with the right tools in place
and SAA can actually make a profit with the right tools in place
and.......

[Kennel Keeper]

Rooivalks demise is as a result of our stupid management mentality in Denel.


When we gave the proposal to the Brits for 91 helicopters they had tested everything and Rooivalk came out tops. Our support plan (4 Tons of paper) was accepted.

PROBLEM : We had 362 "engineers" working on the paper and 5 mechanics in the then proto shop. Would you order 91 helicopters from a company that only had 5 people ( one or two of those may even have been foremen or managers) Then every time we had a sales failure all the best qualified people were retrenched and went to work for the opposition. Then we sold some (Read gave) secrets of our technology to Eurocopter.
Go to R&D at Denel and I bet you will find only french spoken!!!

The 600 mil needed is again probably only to sustain all those new managers they need to help steal BEE money. Ther arent any people left qualified enough or stupid enough to work for that behemouth!

Weapons : Did we not develop a lot of our own systems which we now market to the BAE Hawk etc??

Some of us believe that without American interference in our affairs in Angola and Rhodesia we would have a united southern Africa and there would not be any Mugabe. He was a terr after all !

Jislaaik ,, Nou's ek %#$@*&^%$# KWAAD

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Perhaps if the gentleman in question would care to comment, presuming he occasionally browses this forum. I'd take his word on it as I've debated the point with him in the past and he puts up a fairly convincing argument.

Just a wild stab in the dark here, itaxi, but have you ever flown the machine or any equivalents?

[DualDriver]

iTaxi

Read an article a while back. It compared Rooivalk and The Apache in depth. The thing that stood out to me was that Apache was NOT allowed to fire it's Hellfire missile UNLESS in combat, and then only from the starboard (right) side due to debris from the missile going into the tailrotor, with obvious consequences. IT SHOT ITSELF DOWN!!!!!! So I would then assume you view Apache as a piece of S$%&@T too....:suspect:

Never heard of Rooivalk doing that......:ok:

'nough said

DD:cool:

[currawong]

For my money, the Rooivalk is a contender.

Acquisition must also consider the reliability of the supplier though.

Take the Swedes, deal in weapons, but refuse to support if the buyer actually uses them. Unreliable.

:ugh:

[itaxi]

Maybe you should read Kennel Keepers thread again.
We might have a lot more in common than you think.

You need a "workable" sales plan, taylor-made for the customer. What works in UK does not necessary work in Dubai.

enough said. The chopper is now to old. I never said that the Apache was without fault.

You do not have to be a pilot to determine the apparent differences on paper and drawings. It's called engineering.

[Recuperator]

You sound like a frustrated South African expatriate, stuck in America, with the American patriotism embedded in your mind but not in your heart.

The Americans are and have always been meddlers in every aspect of world affairs, as you pointed out, read Kennel Keepers thread again.

The Rooivalk is a great product and definitely not too old by Apache or any other standards. The French Tigre as favoured by the Aussies, being the latest on the market, hasn’t been around that long. And as mentioned, lots of the technology came from South Africa for that project.

South Africa has the technologically to go at it alone and even had nuclear capabilities, the Koeberg Nuclear power station in Cape Town being evidence hereof.

With some very bright and capable people and with apartheid and the subsequent sanctions and embargo’s, we developed an arsenal of weaponry, well suited to African conditions, born out of need to then "protect" our country during the bush war. So if anything the embargo’s forced us to develop our own and made us self sufficient in many aspects.

These weapons developed in this time were second to none in the world e.g. the G5 and G6 canon, Ratel IFV etc, etc. Some of these weapons were exported successfully, ask your new buddies that walked into them in the first Gulf War. So there is nothing you can say about engineering and development in South Africa as it is world class, otherwise we would have been like the rest of Africa a long time ago.

And yes, aids can be curbed with the right tools in place, it’s called a condom and education and SAA can actually make a profit with the right tools in place, it’s called proper management and probably privatisation…
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
the potential vs the reality

The Sarie Marais is also a vessel with fighting capabilities with the right tools in place.

Geez !

and aids can be curbed with the right tools in place
and SAA can actually make a profit with the right tools in place
and.......
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and.......

if Sarie Marais, read this and saw you called her a vessel with fighting capabilities, she would give you such a slap that you would not only see stars and stripes, but you will hope you still have all your tools in the right place.

Where there is potential, there can be reality… :ok:

[Check Revs]

Well thought out post and well said.:ok: :ok:

CR

[Deanw]

itaxi write:

The arms embargo was lifted in 1996 !!!!!!!!!


I'm not referring to the general arms embargo against South Africa.

The US State Department only rescinded a ban against Armscor, Fuchs Electronics and Denel in July 2004!

The debarment was originally instituted in 1994 as a result of activities undertaken in the US by these companies during the pre-1994 arms embargo era.

[Gunship]

Recuperator read my Afrikaans mind and pasted in English .. my thoughts exactly mate.

Sorry that you have to be in the US itaxi :suspect:

[itaxi]

My friend, you are lacking a lot of information re the technology and source of technology for the 155 gun.

Even more information is scewed re the arms embargo but we will leave that as well.

As far as the Ratel is concerned, when new combustible ammo was being developed, they could not even budget enough money for two ratels to pratice for longer than 9 miles per month.
The ammo was never completed. The Olifant was only granted HE ammunition which my dear friend was the easiest of all to develop. The 105 mm APFSDS ammo was copied from the Israeli's.

The 155 guns and ammo was exported but if you can show me one shot that was fired from a 155 mm or a G6 in the gulf war I will concede. These armourments were never used because the troops were never trained.

The G6 is a fantastic vehicle. Been in one, fired a few modular charges , and drove one.

Go back to my threads. I say that the Rooivalk is outdated, of no use and will probably not be sold to anyone soon (10 years) due to vital strategic errors. With a dwindling industry in that sector the chances are even slimmer.

[The Claw]

You sound like a frustrated South African expatriate, stuck in America, with the American patriotism embedded in your mind but not in your heart.

Seems your patriotism is getting in the way of the truth?

How is Koeberg South African? Even the finance was put up by a group of French Banks? Framatone supplied the reactors and a Belgian/French company supplied the fuel rods.

The G-5 was developed by Space Research Corp with Canadian, USA, Belguim and Swedish input. The list of countries grows as you follow the path to South Africa.

The Ratel was developed from a prototype from the West German company Bussing. It was used to develope the Simbmas ICV(Belguim) which is what the Ratel basically is.

Without sanction busting, South Africa would be like the rest of Africa:E

[Gunship]

Very interesting Claw - very interesting - thanks for that (I for one did not know ... ) :hmm:

[itaxi]

OK guys,enough said. The history lesson is well known to some of us, better still, the downfall is also well known to some of us.



I love SA, I just love working here more
;)

[Recuperator]

With all our hearts we all love our country South Africa, doesn't matter where we are albeit in Australia, America or even just somewhere else in Africa. (Enjoy America if it works for you Itaxi.)

Through good times and bad we have and always will vehemently protect what we think of as the good produced here as our "own". We do this with pride in our achievements, which might have been through our own peoples ingenuity or even as Claw stated just maybe begged or borrowed in a bid to survive and to come out on top. All aspect though had our abilities, knowledge and technologies woven into these products and were adapted to suit our needs and in doing so I feel we made it part of our own. No man is an island.

But nobody can deny that, even today, we do have some of the greatest, brightest and most capable people on earth, right here in South Africa, in every field possible. And yes even as politicians, the old man, Madiba himself had been a bright light on a sometimes very dark continent! Even financially, South Africa has never been better of than now, so the government must be doing something’s right even though we might not agree with what is happening in all aspects of governing the country.

The definition of being patriotic is to be inspired by the love for one's Mother-Land, love of one's birth place and complete devotion to its safety and protection and to love, support and be willing to sacrifice for it and to feeling pride and respect for one’s country.

Patriotism can however also cloud one’s judgement and people can easily be brainwashed into certain ways of thinking. I suppose however that this is one of the things that make it so hard to accept the things that went wrong here, that we could not prevent from changing or what might have slipped beyond our control.

And that is why I think we get so mad and protective when we see South African successes slipping away, like the Rooivalk, like SAA, like the SAAF, mostly unfortunately due to mismanagement, as stated throughout, but still things where a lot of money, energy and effort were put into to make it work. Unfortunately mismanagement seems to be something that haunts the whole of Africa.

But on the bright side, there still is great potential, the reality is it is just a little harder than what it used to be and might take a little longer to develop, as long as we keep on standing up for what is ours and never stop believing in our countries and our awesome abilities. :ok:

[Parrot]

When the Aviation Show was still at Jan Smuts I was standing next to the Rooivalk that was on display and there was this guy who was taking thousands of detailed photographs of the Rooivalk .. so I said to him he had better stop before the Rooivalk starts blushing !!!... and I followed that up with ...how the heck do you pay for that much film processing...
He turns to me and says ...no problem...uncle Sam is paying ... and that he is from US Airforce Inteligence... and cheek of it ...gives me his business card ...with a YF-22 Raptor pin attached !
I cant say which is better Rooivalk ..or Apache... but I gues we had the Yanks worried !

[itaxi]

Recuperator, that was well said, thank you.

Its frustrating. I do however always promote the items I think the US should investigate and evaluate, whhich has been developed and manufactured in SA.

Spying, if you will, has been around for centuries. The people from the east actually have camera's built into their brains if you ask me. We always used to prohibit pictures and joked that everytime they winked their eye-lids, they were snapping something of importance, to copy.