ATPL/CPL Training: Ground School topics

[Cron]

Any recommendations please?

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London Tower this is Skyflash...

[Finals4TheOutsideWorld]

It was some time ago that I did my licencing so things may have changed but here goes. Nav Group - PPSC, Bournemouth. Good set-up. Quality instructors, didn't only teach you to pass the exam along with the self study they actually taught the subject. Technicals - Cabair, Cranfield. The instructor that I had there (Mike Burton I think his name was) was an absolute wizard, especially at electrics. He's had a few books published on the subject. His knowledge of the rest of the curriculum helped this idiot to pass on first attempt. He has left their employment now but still teaches around that area, ask around you should find someone who has used him lately. Best of Luck
Finals

[Robbo Jock]

I went to CABAIR at Cranfield for my CPL(H) course. Great ground school. Paul Hardie's their CGI now, a wizz at Met and Nav. All of them are pretty good and got me through first time.

[VSI]

Can anyone give me an updated position with regard to obtaining a national or JAR CPL(H)? Is it correct that you have to do fixed wing course and exams and then an add on for helicopters? Is there any training provider likely to do a "helicopter only" course in the near future? Does such a course exist? Thanks

[Bingo fuel]

Hi VSI,

If it is of any help you might take a look at
<a href="http://www.jaa.nl," target="_blank">www.jaa.nl,</a> go to JARs and click on section1.
From there you will figure it out.
I don't know where you're from but in Holland there is a flight school where you can train for a CPL helicopter WITH an instrumentrating.
As far as I know, you dont have to do a FW course
first, you just start from zero-hours.

Try it, you might even like it in Holland.

[advancing_blade]

The info' I was given by a couple of schools in the UK, is that as most of the course is universal ( Rotary & siezed wind), that the smart money does the Fw and then the Rw is only one extra exam. This gives you more options and doesn't take a whole lot more effort.

You have missed the deadline for starting National exams

[Heli-Ice]

Bingo Fuel

Please E-mail me on the mailbox in my profile.

I have a few questions to ask about this flight school in Holland. I can't read anything on their websites because of my lack of speaking Dutch. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Heli-Ice

[SouthXross]

I just started my ground school with Bristol for the CPL(H). And yes it’s a hybrid course between the ATPL for fixed wings and the substitution of 2 exams from the old CAA papers to complete the ground school. If you need more info contact Bristol they seem to most of the facts.

SX

[schle035]

Does anybody know if the course from HAI is ATPL? I was told it was but am not so sure! I am looking for a course and after that a job. I was told that I also need a IR for North Sea. A North Sea company told me that I get my IR when I do my type Rating exam there, does anybody know if this still works under JAA?

Thanx for the help!

Any Dutch people know some info about finance?

[Off road]

G'day DIF,

If you need any info regarding ATPL(H) and IR contact Heli Holland on + 31 (0)591351251 they trained people for IR for Schreiner.

Safe Flying

. .PS what are you flying at the moment in Holland?? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[schle035]

HI Off Road,

Did you train at Heli Holland, is that a ATPL course? I heared that there is no JAA course for heli in Holland yet. And how about the IR I heared that it has to be done on a two engine turbine, but they only have a one engine turbine.

At the moment I am only flying in my dreams!. .Just got my medical, now looking for finance and than find a school!

DIF

[Off road]

Have you tried lelycopters in lelystad?. .Give them a ring and see what they say:. .0320284288. .Cheers

PS Also have a look at the : So you want to be a cojoe . thread further down. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[whissper]

Wanting to do JAA ATPL(H) ground school. Holding CASA CPL(H) but means nothing to UK CAA body. Need to do several other things to get to JAA CPL(H) which is longer term plan.. .. .Anyone got any recommendations on ground providers for JAA ATPL(H) and what is involved? Discussions with other people indicate not worth doing CPL(H) ground theory.. .. .Thoughts appreciated.. .. .Whissper

[lionco]

I find myself in a similar position. I hold a SA CPL(H) and now have to convert to a JAA licence to work in the UK or Europe. After many months of looking around, it seems that the best option is to do the ATPL distance learning course through one of the approved schools. There does not however seem to be any school with the approved helicopter ATPL course so you will have to do the Fixed wing theory and when it becomes available, write helo as an addition. It's ridiculous realy but that's the way the cookie crumbles. . .If there is anyone out there who knows of another way. PLEASE let us know!. .If I could at least work whilst doing the course it would ease the pain.

[Helinut]

I heard an unconfirmed rumour that the Ground School at Bristol was about to start the rotary ground school elements.

[quidam]

As of Jan 02 nowhere semed to have a full proper ATPL(H) syllabus up and running. Reading between the lines I got the impression BGS was closest with a planned start during the first 1/4 of 2002.. .In the interim BGS are running a hybrid course. Uses fixed wing for all but the Heli priciples of flight and then Wagtendonks book for that topic. CAA have assured me (for all that at times is worth!) that all starting the hybrid course will be allowed sufficient time to finish it regardless of progress of 'proper' final course.. .I don't work with/for BGS and may be wrong in my interpretation buthave signed up with them for the hybrid course. First exams in July. Hope this doesn't add to the confusion..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

[Say again s l o w l y]

Evening all.

I'd like a bit of advice. I'm currently an ATPL (A) and I would like to change over to the angry palmtree brigade.
Does anyone know what would be the easiest way to go about this. For instance, does my previous flying experience count in anyway, or do I have to start from scratch.

Also, what is the job market like? Is it worth me even considering spending all the money on a CPL(H)?

Finally, would a fixed wing FI rating pass across? (I doubt it.) If not, are the requirements the same in terms of hours needed to start the course, or do my fixed wing hours count?

Thanks in advance:confused: :confused:

[johnnypick]

Do you get the impression no one on Rotorheads wants to answer this type of question! maybe they don't like people going from fixed to rotor. I've have a similar question on at the moment, and had one a few weeks ago, but alas no replies on any of them. At least this reply will refresh your post and keep it up there for a while, maybe someone will have answer eventually.

[Helinut]

We are not being unfriendly - the problem is under the new regime of JAR-FCL we don't know. In terms of prospects it is not good news either.

Under pre JAR-FCL, there was an established route for transferring either way between planks & RW. You could just look it up in CAP 53 or 54. No such luck under the new system where the CAA seem curiously reluctant to write down a comprehensive interpretation of JAR FCL for the UK. (Apparently, there is a new version of CAP 53 which deals with PPL licences)

As I read JAR FCL2, it seems to give very little credit for any plank experience or qualifications. The other place to look would be the CAA website where there are guides on how to acquire various licences.

Prospects for a new start to helicopters are less good than they were because it is more expensive to get both licences, ratings and flying experience, as a result of JAR FCL2.

You used to be able to instruct with a PPL(H) and an instructor rating - now you need a CPL(H) and (most expensively) considerably more helicopter flying time before you can instruct. Instructing is the classic way for hele pilots to gain more flying time.

The CAA impose a minimum helicopter flying time rule for CPL(H)s to fly PIC for AOC work of 700 hours, through requirements they force AOC holders to put in their Ops Manuals. Since almost all onshore helicopter flying is single crew, poor prospects for a low time helicopter pilot. Very little onshore flying is full-time employee - most is ad hoc freelance.

Offshore a low time CPL(H) used to be able to get work as a co-pilot, if the offshore companies were recruiting. Now even the co-pilot of a multi crew helicopter must have an IR. Since they cost a fortune (under JAR-FCL) this is a major problem - offshore companies are increasingly reluctant to pay for the IR themselves as they have had their fingers burnt.

However, if you really want to do it, it can be done. More smiles per mile, IMHO! :)

[Vfrpilotpb]

Hey Say Again,

Rotory flying is the tops, once you have got into it you will realise what a freedom sort of thing it is, .. jump in with both feet there's only one thing that beats it!!!!:D

[Kiwi Skiv]

Say again slowly and Johnnypick,
This probally wont help much as I'm in New Zealand(Hell of alot cheaper to train down here if you go for it)There alot of Fixed wing hours that you can transfer over to your CPL(H) here.You can transfer up to 20 hrs PIC(Must be in the last year),Intrument time(Both actual and Sim,Sim time can be up to 20hrs towards the 40 for a instrument rating).But the bottom line is I transfered from fixed wing to the Spastic Palm Tree and I never had so much fun in my life(Exceprt for the other thing:p )The way I look at it is if you are flying a Helicopter the money may not be great but youll never have to work another day in your life:D :D

Best of luck

[Whirlybird]

Can I second Helinut's comment that we're not being unfriendly; it's just that we don't know. I saw your post, and hoped someone else would answer it. Despite having recently got a CPL(H), and working on getting another 100 hours (oh, only another 60 needed now:) ) to do an instructor's course, I can't really answer your question. However, I do know you need 300 hours ROTARY (though not necessarily PIC), to do the instructor's course, because I checked that out. And most pre-JAR qualifications don't seem to count for much. But really, the person to ask is David Patterson at the CAA; he is a CPL examiner for them (maybe the only one, not sure), and the expert on JAR. Actually, I just realised I have his direct number - 01293.573076. Sorry I didn't say before, but I'm in the US for three weeks, with only intermittent Internet access.

Hope that helps, and at least proves we're not unfriendly. :D

[Say again s l o w l y]

Thanks for the replies.

The reason I asked about wether my fixed wing hours count towards Heli FI rating is that in JAR-FCL 2 it states that you need 300 hours FLIGHT time of which 100 must be solo if holding a CPL(H) or ATPL(H).

When I rang the Belgrano I got the same same response as whirlybird. Sort of. They don't seem to be able to make up their minds especially when I told them I was already a fixed wing instructor. When I asked them to justify why you need so many hours, the phone went strangly silent. The next response was "Oh it'll be coming out in a GID that's being sent round at the moment." To be honest this sounds like they've been caught out and are trying a typical CAA tactic when they don't really know the answer.- Give them any old bull and hopefully they'll accept it as we are the CAA.

I have it from a reliable source (!:rolleyes:!) that this is against the actual thinking behind JAR. I would be very interested to find out if this was the case in other countries in Europe.

If anyone feels like it, it may be an idea if we all ask them the question why and then ask them to justify it. Like most beauraucracies they seem to fold when put under any real pressure.
If we can get this rule changed, I can't see how it can hurt the Helicopter industry. In fact it will probably help as finding the cash for another 200 hours is not easy, and it is certainly putting me off the idea. (Still paying for the fixed wing training!!)

let me know what you all think.

Cheers:)

[Helinut]

Say again,

We are at least partly to blame for the situation we are now in, in respect of the UK interpretation of JAR FCL and its adverse impact on the whole UK aviation industry, but especially helicopters. We did not raise objections when the thing was around in draft form. We still seem to be having problems in raising coordinated feedback/pressure to the CAA. One aspect that concerns me greatly is the way that you get different answers to the same questions, depending upon who you are and who you ask. The CAA are reluctant to commit to things in wiriting which leaves me concerned as to whether they might try to backtrack if the S**T hits the whirly thing.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, there may be a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. I heard that a new version of CAP 53 was/has just been published. (this was the "bible" that set out in detail what you needed to do to get a PPL and other associated ratings - it covered the vast majority of special cases too and was invaluable for instructors and flying schools to refer to). If we get that and a new CAP 54 (for professional licences) at least there will be a hard source of information and some hope of a level playing field.

I would encourage you to raise your question with them, and if it copmes from more then one source, so much the better.

[Whirlybird]

Say Again,

I know it's written as 300 hours FLIGHT time; I kept querying that too, since I have about 180 f/w hours. That was why immediately after my CPL Skills Test, I specifically asked David Paterson, the examiner, if he'd check it for me. It's JAR, not the CAA. Ron Jenkins of the CAA had been telling people something different, but David Paterson apparently helped write JAR, and is the one who knows, or so they tell me. I was annoyed too, but finally decided to bite the bullet, raid what was left of the savings, earn some more money, and have a couple of flying holidays abroad (not sure this is a holiday, but it's great experience anyway, despite what some are saying on other threads). But I was in a different position from you, with less than 400 hours TT, and really not feeling like I should be teaching anyone anything yet, so I don't mind that much. I agree, it's crazy. I suspect it may get changed. Ring David Patterson and see what you can find out, and please let me know.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I've had a thought. If everyone thinks that this is a daft rule, why doesn't we try and get it changed.

As the wording is so open to interpretation a decent (I use the word lightly!) Lawyer would make mincemeat out of them. Instead of just accepting it at face value (p.s Whirly I'm not having a pop) if alot of people and especially companies make noises about this, they will have to change it.

I called the CAA this morning to try and get an answer about Bridging exams, but despite many calls and e-mails I've still not recieved an answer. i.e they don't exist yet.

This situation is laughable, I don't know any company that could get away with acting in this manner. But I'm not going to start an anti-CAA rant, All I want to do is get started with my training.

E-mail me if anyone wants to co-ordinate efforts.:eek:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Right, I've finally got an answer that makes a bit of sense.

I've just been told that for fixed wing instructors wanting to become FI(H)'s there IS some flexiblity. The reason that FCL 2.335 says flight time, is that it allows some allowance in each individual case. (My god that actually makes sense!!) Also that when actually taking the course there is a dispensation against the ground training, but not the flying side(Again that is sensible).

The amount of allowance is different in each case but personally I should see "about 50 hrs" off the requirements.

For the Ground school subjects until the Bridging exams arrive you have to do 4 of the subjects - A/c systems, Planning and I've forgotten the other two?!:o

I feel better now and Hopefully this may have cleared up any confusion that everybody I've spoken to seems to have had.
JAR don't you just love it!!

[CyclicRick]

I've GOT an ATPL(H) allbeit a German one, you should hear the trouble I'm having trying to convert that into a JAA license in the UK, it's a ****ing nightmare. I sympathise with the trouble you're having but good luck although if you want to earn any money stay with the planks.

PAS. gis a job anyone! I want to come home.....weep.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I've just recieved an e-mail from the Belgrano with some good news!
If you have a CPL(A) with ATPL credits, the only groundschool exam you have to pass is Principles of flight. What a result!

I still haven't got much further about the hours required before doing an FI rating. YET!! Though I've been told by someone at the CAA that the German version of the CAA takes a very different line.
Oh, isn't it wonderful to be in Europe!:rolleyes: Now we can tell the CAA "that's not what the French,Germans, Italians etc.. do, Therefore why are you different?" Then sit back and listen to the spluttering!!

[The Nr Fairy]

I'm getting a little bit peeved. I will shortly start my CPL(H) modular course, 30 hours, at about £200 per hour. This means I have £6000 or thereabouts to spend with someone.

My problem ? I can't get people to speak to me about it !! I've spoken with the place I fly with normally, as they can do the modular course and I know the place and the people. Despite a few reminders, the guy I've asked hasn't got back to me two weeks after my initial enquiry so I had to ask someone else if they could chivvy him later this week.

I've also contacted another school, less convenient for me but with a reputation which seems good, from what I gather. Left a message, asked someone to get back to me, nothing.

Is it just me, or am I encountering something which isn't unusual ?

BTW, if I get unsolicited emails from people in response offering me their services, I'll read them then delete them without response.

[B Sousa]

Hey there are some hungry folks in the U.S. that didnt get all your money last time. Check out the HAI site at www.heli.com They do CAA/JAA stuff.........Its in Florida so easier for you to get there.....
Good Luck, dont give up your daytime job....

[Rotorbike]

I needed to do a CAA checkride and approached a UK school. Their response was to give me the CAA number to book a checkride first.

They then proceeded to bend overbackward to accommodate me for the required training for this date. Altogether a very stress free arrangement.

Should you wish to know whom I used please mail me...... Probably then find it's the same place as you can't get a response from!!!

[Whirlybird]

Nr Fairy,

You could try Heliflight, who I did mine with. I'd be surprised if they didn't get back to you if you wanted to do a CPL course. I think it was £195/hr (plus VAT), but might have been £205/hr. I think I blot all these figures out of my mind, because I really don't want to know how much I've spent on helicopter flying! :eek: E-mail me if you want phone numbers or any other details.

BTW, you may have to hunt around a bit to find an airfield that's open late enough for you to do the night flying - I gave up in the end and waited for winter. Though I daresay in the south, with more airfields, such things are easier. You can do it separately though, ie not at the school where you do the rest of the CPL course.

[Robbo Jock]

And I've no doubt whatsoever that my old Alma Mater, Cabair, would be more than willing to relieve you of any spare cash you may have (well, actually, ANY cash, spare or not :) )

Hopefully the "Recommendation Police" don't shout at me for mentioning names.

[B Sousa]

Just butting in again, I still find it hard that you follks in the UK let schools get away with 200 pounds an hour.... You can dam near get B206 time for that here in the sates... Maybe you all ought to get together..
What is the ridiculous price for anyway?? Why so high?? Taxes??, fuel? or just filling someones pocket....

[The Nr Fairy]

Bert :

Combination of all three, I think !

[Hoverman]

B. Sousa
That's one of life's great mysteries for anyone involved in UK aviation. It's true the amount of tax we pay on fuel is extortionate, but one thing for sure, the huge difference in price between the UK and the US is not all explained by the difference in fuel price.
I have a lot of sympathy for people trying to get their CPLs. It was always expensive, but I'm not sure I could afford do it if I had to do it now.

[Whirlybird]

Well, I compared fuel prices when I was in the US, and worked it out, and came to the conclusion most of it was due to the HUGE difference in fuel prices. Apart from that instructors earn about twice as much here PER HOUR. But because of the weather they probably earn less overall than in the US. And the weather's part of the problem; aircraft and instructors can be airborne for many more hours in the US than over here. I don't think it's lining anyone's pocket; running a flying school is not seen as a get rich quick scheme. I know schools who would love to undercut their competitors, but say they can't afford to. I only know of one that's a bit cheaper than the figures we've given. They are based at a small airfield and probably have lower operating costs. Apart from that...well, I have my own opinions about them; let's just say you usually get what you pay for.

[pilotwolf]

I had a similar problem when I started flying.

I knew that I was going to be spending a lot of money so I faxed just about every school I could find in the UK and US. I can't remember how many that was but the resulting replies speak for themselves:

UK - 4 replies over about 6 weeks
USA - without exception every school replied with literature or a call or both the longest reply was 4 weeks and that came with an apology for the delay in responding.

That's why I learnt in LA! And spent the majority of my money there. (And not just on flying!!!:D )

[t'aint natural]

B Sousa:
One of the fundamental problems here in the UK - and one that is estimated to increase the cost of a commercial helicopter course by almost 50 per cent - is CAA charges.
In the late 1980s we had a free-wheelin' free-market government that mandated that the Civil Aviation Authority (and a large number of other government arms) recovered their entire running costs from the industries they "served". In aviation, of course, that's a very big bureaucracy and a very small customer base.
Everything you take for granted from the FAA has to be paid for in full by the user in the UK. To get a star annual on my R22 signed off by the CAA (and all they do is stamp the document, they don't even look at the engineering work - it literally takes 20 seconds) recently cost me £950 or about $1400. A friend with an AS350 paid almost $5,000 for the same service.
Our biggest training organisation, Cabair, pays about half a million pounds a year in fees to the CAA. Acting as it does as an unpaid collection agent for the government, it also takes the flak for the charges. And don't even start me off about the Public Transport Category Certificate of Airworthiness, a hugely expensive piece of bureaucratic nonsense which cripples UK owners, especially those with low-utilisation aircraft, and only the United Kingdom has to put up with. The rest of the world seems to manage without it.
The upshot is that an R22 costs an obscene amount of money to put into the air in the UK, examination fees (non-existent or very low in most countries) are usurious, and any time the CAA wants more money, they just mandate another requirement and we have to pay.

[B Sousa]

As I figured but forgot to include. The "Gubament" has their fingers in the Pie. Same in the states, but not as much. In Aviation, its much much less at least financially....
Where would we be without government involvement......well, Im not going there.
Enough already, it was a wonderful day and a nice ride out in the Grand Canyon with a load of non-tipping Brits. How come every time I come to the UK, everybody has a hand out.. Guarantee, it will be empty on my next visit.
Its almost 1900 hours now and its still about 35 of your degrees, wait till summer arrives.... We all can say the word "Transient Torque"....

Rotor in the Green

[Check 6]

Bert, it is not just high fuel costs, but the EU has very high landing fees, Eurocontrol fees, parking fees, etc. etc.

Eurocontrol charges us approximately $400 in fees for a flight from S. Italy to the U.K.

Wasn't there a tax revolt back in the 1700s? I could be wrong. Maybe throw some tea in the Thames??

Cheers

:D :D :D

[pilotwolf]

Maybe I m missing something here but would the Eurocontrol fee really affect flight training?

Think it's probably just a case of Rip Off Britain again - fuel tax, landing fees, etc.

[t'aint natural]

Could anyone tell me what is the average price of a gallon of Avgas in the USA?

[Check 6]

Pilotwolf, you are correct, there are no Eurocontrol fees for flight training. If a flight plan is filed, indicate "flight training" in the remarks section of block 18 to avoid the fees.


:D :D :D

[Out of Balance]

I have to take my hat off to you people paying enormous sums of hard earned money for a CPL(H).

I have always loved flying and still get the same joy from it 25 years after my first solo, but I am not sure that I would have the dedication to spend so much money in today's economic climate.

I sincerely wish you all every success - you surely deserve it.

:)

[Boozer]

Have you thought about traveling to Australia to do your license, our dollar is pretty low at the moment which you could probable take advantage of?
Email me if you want details of a good flying school.

[B Sousa]

For info on fuel prices, try this. Dont forget our Gallons are a bit different and so is the Dollar.......

http://www.airbase1.com/avgfuel.htm

[Nick Lappos]

I flew helicopters around a bunch of times in Britain, and was always impressed with the number of people with Government jobs who are employed at tiny airports.

There was a guard at the gate, blue uniform, reading a newspaper. He was needed to keep the general public away from the 20 aircraft parked on the field. He lifted the tilt gate by hand to let me in. Of course, each of those aircraft paid 5% of his salary, one way or another.

There were three people in the tower (the tower!! Most US airports have a coke machine and a payphone). They operated a full set of radios and a radar. Everybody enjoyed their day, especially the several times they had to pick up the mike and talk to someone - sort of a special event, if you know what I mean. They had great reparte and good coffee, and helped with the flight plan (needed for VFR flight) and called someone on the telephone to read the entire plan verbally. That other person was Somewhere Else, but I'll be he was not a volunteer. I'll bet he was not alone, either.

There were some odd types at the airport, too, but thet were just regular working people actually doing something productive, like maintaining airplanes or pumping gas. They weren't as important, their salaries were probably paid by the service they provided.

As I flew across the country, I had to contact each airport along the way, about every 5 to 10 miles. They all said cool things like QNH and stuff, so I know they were needed. I'll bet the altimeter setting changes every 10 miles, so we need people to read it to us very often. They tracked me on the radar that some other guy with a government ID bought, and someone else maintained. They told me about traffic that would pass within 10 minutes, if I stuck around to create a conflict.

I seriously doubt that UK operators are rolling in money, the prices reflect the army is being carried on the backs of the users, because someone has to pay. I can picture the number of folks in the background, checking certificates, stamping papers and getting more coffee. They are all nice folks (seriously, I am always struck with the simple courtesy displayed by officials in the UK, That is worth something!) but someone has to pay them.

[t'aint natural]

On the basis of the chart kindly furnished by B Sousa I figure my R22 costs £16 (about $23) more per hour to fly in the UK than it would in the USA on fuel costs alone. The remainder of the differential is down to the situation so vividly set out by Nick Lappos above; it certainly isn't in margins for operators.

[Whirlybird]

Hey, Nick, did you fly in the same Britain that I live in? Where most of the time I fly around without talking to anyone? Where when I want to land at an airfield, I can't raise anyone on the radio because the one person there is making coffee and trying to answer the phone at the same time? Where in huge areas of the country radar hasn't been heard of?

Nah, can't be. Must be some other place. :D

[nickp]

The following is a quote from a senior individual in the CAA - I realise it is about fixed wing PPL tuition, but it does make me wonder about the standard of training in the US. This is unfortunately borne out only to frequently by the standard of US-trained PPLs that turn up at the school where I work wanting to hire aircraft. As the RT examiner who has to do their RT practical exams, I will not even begin to comment.

'I find the statistics curious, a PPL in the UK takes about 55-60 hours, a FAA PPL takes 70 - 75 hours on average yet a JAA PPL in the US with FAA instructors only takes 45 hours, something is clearly missing.'

It is difficult to avoid the impression that these individuals are not being taught to fly, they are being sold PPLs.

[Nick Lappos]

nickp,

I can't weigh the value of the two similar courses in the two different shores of the Atlantic, except to note that the typical flight school in the states takes about 35 to 50 hours when the course is done as a continuoum.

Many students in the states are trained in a flying club, or at an FBO in a less formal course, so they tend to treat the excercise as a once a week thing, stretched over as much as two years. This causes lost training effect and thus the longer average student takes much longer to complete the course. The cost for a club PPL is quite a bit lower than at an FBO, as well.

A while back, we bashed around the relative excellence of pilots from each system, and it is a very subjective evaluation at best.

I cruised the web sites to see what we might glean from the data relative to the popularity of flying in each country.

see: http://api.hq.faa.gov/clientfiles/CONTENT.htm

and: http://www.caa.co.uk/sitemap/sitemap.asp


For example, in year 2000, there were 217,000 airplanes registered in the US to General Aviation owners (149,000 single engine piston alone!) They flew 30,900,000 hours in 2002. There were 93,000 student pilots, 251,000 private pilots that year. The total of all types of certified pilots was 625,583 for 275 million population (2274 pilots per million). There are 789 aircraft per million population.

In the UK that year there were 31,885 total private pilots of all types, and 16,500 commercial and ATP's. Total was 48,385 for 59.1 million population (813 pilots per million). There were 16,000 currently registered aircraft in the UK in 2001. That is
270 aircraft per million population.

So, based on population, the US has 2.79 times the number of pilots and 2.9 times the number of aircraft. I do believe that economics are the biggest difference between the two sets of numbers.

Can you tell me again what we in the US are doing wrong?

[nickp]

Nick, you are not doing anything wrong. JAR-PPL students trained in the US are, for all I know, perfectly capable of flying in the US. Unfortunately, they seem to have little idea of the different conditions in the UK. There is an enormous difference between reading about airspace restrictions in a foreign country and being told by the man sitting beside you that you will be prosecuted if you go another mile on your present heading.

[pilotwolf]

Whilst being biased towards USA training, (although with a dual FAA/CAA-JAR instructor who teaches in both countries) I have to say it is definately the better. Its a lot more hands on and about pratical flying. It is also a know fact that a relaxed student learns better - I would find it difficult to relax in any of the UK teaching enviropments where CFI are in uniform with varing numbers of bars on their epaulettes.

I have flown with PPLs trained on both sides of the pond and I know who I'd rather have fly my family.

EG: A newly qualified PPL, with 65 hrs in which he just managed to scrap through the GFT(Checkride), didn't know have to workout a weight and balance nor did he know what purpose the Density Altitude chart was for! Guess you don't really need that page here in the UK!

Another UK trained PPL with a couple of hundred hours - theory OK, hands on flying a bit shaky, radio procedure even by USA standards was awful.

Yet another PPL with fast approaching 1000hrs failed the CPL oral exam miserably....

And I find it rather worrying that with the UK weather causing difficulties with continous training on part time basis how much knowledge is retained, as said Nick Lappos above when training is interrupted.

On a similar thread how much of the CFI knowledge base goes rusty through lack of student turnover? And yes I know a lot of CFIs, especially in the USA, are lowtime anyway but which side of the pond is their knowledge base going to improve and be maintained the best.

Also I would be more conserned that the UK schools are selling PPLs when training costs here are that much higher. A few extra hours training in the states hurts the bank balance a lot less.

Whirly as for no radio or radar you do live in Wales after all... :D :D

[Heliport]

nickp
I must admit I'm having some difficulty following your point. Anyone who trains abroad may reasonably be expected to take a little time to adjust to flying here. That doesn't mean he's not been properly trained.
I agree it's far better to train in the country where you plan to fly, if finances permit. But, given the cost advantage of training in the US, it may still be cheaper to train there and allow some money to do some additional local training when you get back.
I don't have any difficulty seeing the explanation for what your 'senior individual in the CAA' says. Don't make the mistake of assuming the FAA PPL and the CAA PPL are the same standard. And the more reliable weather explains the difference in the time it takes to get a JAA PPL.

Lower standards in the US? I doubt it. The safety statistics don't support your impressions. Could it be just a little patriotic bias showing through? Or too long a conversation with your 'senior individual in the CAA'? Bear in mind that it's a constant source of wonderment to the CAA that American aircraft don't constantly crash because FAA aircraft and airman standards are so low. They tend to attribute it to simple good fortune! :rolleyes:

What a pity we didn't simply copy the FAA system lock, stock and barrel instead of wasting so much time and money inventing a Joint European system which only makes life even more difficult and more expensive both for UK training organisations and for aspiring aviators.

[Whirlybird]

I'm far from being an expert on the difference between UK and US trained PPLs. But having just got back from the US I do have some opinions on this.

I was impressed with the actual standard of flying over there. People with the same number of hours as I have knew lots more about mountain flying, and had practised autos etc from 500 ft, which I'd never done. I did a lot of that kind of stuff there with an instructor, and learned a lot. But then I realised I have little use for it here. We don't have any mountains higher than 4000 ft or so, and that only in Scotland. We don't have any high altitude airfields. (Yes, I'd forgotten how to use the density altitude chart; hadn't used it since my PPL skills test). We don't fly around at under 500 ft because it's illegal; it's also unsafe because you're liable to encounter a highspeed military jets.:eek:

On the other hand, PPLs over there didn't seem to have a clue about navigation. People seemed to follow roads or coastlines all the time. I took a student who was just about to do his checkride with me when I flew from LGB to Santa Barbara. We got lost in LA, trying to follow the freeways. He looked around in desperation, then got out his GPS. I looked at the compass and which direction we were heading, noted where the coastline was, worked out my last known point - basic navigational skills; it works even in LA. But he didn't seem to even know how to try that.

Then there was weather. If the wind got up to 12 kts over there, people got worried. I did my first solo over here with 17 kts. And I think a lot of US PPLs would have problems with the kind of weather we take for granted in the UK.

I doubt if I could pass a US commercial checkride without a bit of extra training; I don't have the experience of mountain flying and suchlike. But I don't need it here. But I doubt if some of the US lowish hours CPLs would pass the JAR commercial skills test, certainly not the nav, finding an isolated farmhouse among many similar ones, having been given a gride reference in advance. But they don't need to. They don't do that sort of flying over there.

To summarise, it seemed to me, after admittedly very limited experience in only one area of the US, that you learn what you need to for where you're going to fly. At least at first. Neither is better or worse, but they are a bit different. For that reason, I think that initially learning in the country where you intend to fly is a good idea. After that going to other places to get different experience is good (and great fun, if you don't mind feeling like an idiot for a bit!).

[Indy Cleo]

Could I suggest you look at training in New Zealand. Real mountains, good climate, plenty of helicopters, and above all cost effective.

Try a search on the web for helicopter schools in New Zealand.

[nickp]

I think that Whirlybird has summed up the situation very well. The problem is that the student thinks that because he has a JAR PPL he has all the knowledge and skills required to fly in the UK. We recently had a US trained student who performed perfectly well on the handling check but then hired the aircraft and flew straight through the Heathrow and Stansted zones enroute, in a straight line, to his destination.
If the new PPL appreciates that some of the money he has saved by learning in the US must be spent by learning the differences when flying in the UK, then fine. But how many schools in the US make that point clear? Preferably to the student before he starts?

[Flying Lawyer]

nickp
Perhaps the US schools assume that anyone able to get all the way from the UK to the States, pass the ground exams, and get successfully through a PPL course might just be bright enough to work that out for themselves.

I'm surprised your school didn't require rather more than just a handling check before allowing a newly qualified and unknown PPL to set off on a flight which took him anywhere near the Heathrow or Stansted zones. :confused:

[George Semel]

Hey Bert, ypu always had a way with the written word. Sounds like you are becoming a wordsmith. You still flying for Rogers or did you jump ship? Hell In Vegas It gets hot in Summer, its a Desert and high field elevations to boot. What are you flying now a AS-350 B-3 or a BH-206 L-3 like I am right now.

[B Sousa]

"Then there was weather. If the wind got up to 12 kts over there, people got worried. I did my first solo over here with 17 kts. And I think a lot of US PPLs would have problems with the kind of weather we take for granted in the UK. "

Thats in the Training world.....The winds yesterday in Las Vegas were at times 22-27G45 and in the Grand Canyon it was a real Ass Kicker. Plus a desert sand storm reduced visibility to about 1/2 mile.....
Money drives Helicopters Companies so All were out there flying. Thats the world you are training for....

[nickp]

Thanks Flying Lawyer, I think hindsight is a wonderful gift too. Not long afterwards a hirer signed out an aircraft for Duxford and took it to Holland - maybe we could have searched his flight bag and asked him why he needed a passport.
Maybe we should just refuse to hire to US JAR-PPLs unless they do a supplementary course with us - 45 hours would probably be enough.

[Rotorbike]

nickp,

You seem to have a problem with anyone having been trained by anyone that hasn't been trained by the UK 'system' when each of the arguements you put forward are shortfalls of your school more than US ones.

The biggest complaint I ever came across in the US was the requirements of individual schools for European PPL(H) to have training before being allowed to fly solo.

But then again, afterwards they never violated airspace :) or took the aircraft somewhere other than they said they would. ;)

So what is your point :(

[t'aint natural]

I've flown with UK instructors and I've flown with US instructors, and the one difference I've been able to perceive is that the US intructors are a lot less pompous.

[RW-1]

It's just different on both sides of the big pond. but both sides have their winners and losers.

Whirly, sorry to hear you got stuck with one who didn't know navigation. Most of the time here I go by pilotage, being so low, or can do ded reckoning. On occasion I'll track a VOR radial! :D

On the other side you guys coming to the US can enjoy scooting along at 300 feet, something you likely don't get to do over there., which you mentioned.

Skillset is one thing, where you got yours is another; but one has to apply what one learned to where you are flying.

For example, I was in north county Sat. Watching traffic I knew what I could do for departure, etc. But decided to ask around to the local heli pilots I was sitting with, since I was unfamiliar with that field, in terms of whatever "local" procedures they had. Let's face it, no one wants to look like an idiot and have people wondering "What the F--k is he doing?" :D

No one said that when I left, er, ah, I hope no one said that when I left hehehe ....

[Whirlybird]

Bert,

Agree with all you said, but it's the training world we've been talking about.

Yes, of course US commercial pilots have to fly almost whatever the conditions. So do UK ones. I was booked today to do the flying and other tests required to get the R44 on my UK licence (more CAA hoops to jump through). Rain, high winds, low cloud, no-one else even thinking about flying. A year ago I'd probably have been told we weren't flying. Instead it was; "Well, you're a commercial pilot; you can't stop for a bit of wind!" We got it done anyway. :)

Yes, I know you have wind in Vegas. But US PPLs can still manage to get through the course without learning about weather. Over here you couldn't - unless you had a lifetime to spare. That's all.

[Hoverman]

nickp
Have to say you are coming across as having a bit of a chip about people doing PPLs in the US. I realise you're a FI here and may be concerned about loss of customers, but my impression is only a small percentage go to the US.
I don't think you can blame the US schools for failing to explain that further training in home countries is a good idea, and is likely to be essential in most places for self fly hire. Isn't it up to the UK school/club to impose a reasonable reqiuirement for safety reasons?
Flying Lawyer's point was a fair one wasn't it? And he made it much more gently than many would have. It's not really hindsight is it? You're Maidenhead based so presumably your school must be somewhere near LHR zone - or even just up the road in it? If a new PPL who'd trained in for example Scotland turned up, wouldn't it normal practice to make sure he was famil with the zone before letting him loose. Or for a FI to check his planned route?

[Aesir]

Does anyone out there know where I can buy a ready made JAR-FCL 2 approved CPL (H) practical training syllabus?

My country (Iceland) is in the process of adopting JAR-FCL 2 for us helicopter pilots and to get my school approved as FTO I´ll need to do a lot of paperwork which I do not have time for.

I already have the PPL (H) syllabus ready and I can just forget about FI training because no one is going to buy 300 hrs to be qualified for flight instructor training.

We have until now been able to do IFR training in our H-300 instrument trainer in simulated conditions, but we can forget about that to, according to JAR the a/c must be certfied for flight in IMC conditions.

So in the future we will only be able to do PPL (H) as RTF or if we get the FTO approval then we could continue CPL (H) training.

Please let me know if you know where I could get the CPL (H) syllabus.

Thanks.

[buttline]

If you go to the Flight Crew Licensing page on the CAA's website (www.caa.co.uk), you'll probably find them there. The ATPL(A) one's are definitely there.

Barry

[Irlandés]

Has anyone done (or is in the process of doing) a NZ CPL (H) to JAR FCL 2 conversion?? I've read the official guidelines but I'd like to know how it's being translated into practice. Can you give me an idea as to the process? Will I really have to do all the groundschool again??

Any information much appreciated!

Thanks in advance,

Irlandés

[Rotorbike]

Currently JAA do not recognise any other licences or instrument ratings...

Yes, you will have to do all the written exams!!!

:( :mad: :(

[Irlandés]

Thanks Rotorbike,
but it's not the exams I'm really worried about but having to do an obligatory ground course where I'll have to pay some FTO thousands of pounds to teach me something I already know! And probably a year to do it to boot!!

:(

Ciao!

Irlandés

[sunnysideup]

Rumour has it (despite no response from the CAA) that if you hold ATPL (A) theory, there are just bridging exams to do to gain ATPL(H) theory.

Anyone know of an outfit actually offerring this??? I've been looking for while with no luck.

[Draco]

I'm sure a call to one of the groundschool providers such as Bristol will give you an answer, or at least their interpretation of latest CAA inspirations.

the last time I tried to get an answer out of the CAA by email it took about 12 days, so don't hold your breath.

[sunnysideup]

Thanks

Called Bristol and a couple of others - they didn't know of anyone

Hence request for clarification and ATO's from CAA

Maybe nobody does it yet??

[buttline]

I'm looking at it the other way around. i.e. I've done the ATPL(H) subjects and looking to do the ATPL(A) subjects while I'm still in study mode.

CAA advised me that I'll need to sit POF, Performance and Aircraft General so I guess it's the same in the opposite direction.

Currently the CAA don't have a helicopter paper for Performance or Mass and Balance or Instruments. Flight Plannnig and Ops Procedures are currently being hobbled together for us in a couple of weeks.

Longer term, helicopter specific papers are:-

Intruments
Flight Planning
Ops Procs
POF
Perf
Aircraft General
(I think's that it - the rest are common to both)

If you get in quick (quick being a year in CAA terms) you'll probably get away with just doing POF. The reason I think that is because at the moment Oxford and Cabbair have an approval to teach their helicopter ATP guys the fixed wing syllabus for all subjects + Helicopter POF. In any case, you should email the CAA for confirmation - Simon White I think - check out the Saftey Reg Group page at http://www.caa.co.uk

Texts on POF by Pooleys and Wagdendonk's Principle's of Helicopter Flight. Helicopter Adventures in Florida may sell you their Heli ATP POF course manual (www.heli.com) ask for Sam Hayes.

[sunnysideup]

Amazing

Just after I'd given up I got a response from the CAA. In case its helpful to someone:

"I can confirm that if you obtain a JAR CPL(A)/IR with ATPL theory, under current arrangements you would only be required to pass the JAR Principles of Flight (Helicopters) examination at ATPL(H) level in order to obtain a JAR CPL(H). However, you should note that these terms are a temporary arrangement pending the availability of JAR bridging examinations which are expected to be available by the end of the year".

Thanks for your replies
:)

[Send Clowns]

As far as I know only Cabair do approved helicopter groundschool in this country (though one in Florida (Helicopter Adventures?) does so also I believe).

However the advice you have from the CAA says you only have to pass the exam, implying no approved course. Thus if you get hold of some notes you could self study. If you do so and get stuck, either look to Cabair for tuition or email me - I know someone who could probably help (and for the moderators, no I am not advertising my employer, the first person I would suggest was a colleague in SFT but now works for a rival). He is ex-Bristow groundschool, ex-army and North Sea. My helicopter P of F is a little rusty :(

Best of luck :)

[Fionnan]

Having just passed my flight test and received JAA PPL(H), I would appreciate some advice on good career moves for getting CPL(H) and a job soon after. Do I go for a turbine rating and some experience with it or stick with a cheaper piston type until after getting my CPL? If anybody knows of employers who will take on fresh CPL's, could they please point me in their direction. Any help would be appreciated as good heli opportunities are infrequent for low hour CPL's in Ireland.

[RotorHorn]

Frequent question this on the forum. Use the search facility and look for "CPL(H)" and I'm sure you'll find some info.

I'm a bit ahead of you - had my PPL(H) a year now but still only done 85hrs. I'm hour building VERY VERY slowly obviously.

I've done a rating for an R44 so i can take more pax up, but I'd still advise you to stick with the pistons for now.

Its going to cost you a fortune for your CPL(H) as it is, without paying for turbine time on the way. Although I'm not saying you shouldn't have a 'play' if the mood takes you! ;)

Whirlybird is a long way ahead of both of us, and no doubt'll she'll comment as soon as she has her next "tea-break" (good job you work for yourself Whirly ;) )

[aultguish]

Hi Fionnan,

I am also a PPL(H) with about 120hrs so far......(Blackpool too Rotorhorn).
I have cut back on my flying time and worrying about ratings etc just now, due to concentrating on getting the ATPL's out of the way. I'm booked in for the first 8 this october with refresher course obviously in September.
When the ATPL's are out of the way, then I will revert back to flying most days until I have the required hours (and feel ready) to take my CPL(H) skills test.
Once the CPL is eventually under my belt, then I will look to scrounging/saving/borrowing some more money to do a turbine conversion.
My main point is, if you are going to turn heli's into a career, then get the ATPL's done first, no point in having spent lots of money on conversions and courses if you cant pass the writtens.
Finally, after everything is completed, if the career situation is the same as it is now, then I wont just be looking at trying to find a job in the uk (or close proximity:) ), I've already prepared my family that I will probably have to head abroad and do the less paid, less glamorous jobs, that hopefully no one else wants to do, apart from me :) ...........unless I get my lucky break that is :D .
Anyway Fionnan, sorry if the above comes across as sounding arrogant because it is by no means meant to.
Hope my little bit of advice will help.
Good luck and hope everything goes well for you.

PS. The ATPL's are just as much fun as flying:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Irlandés]

Hi Fionnan,
nice to see I'm not the only Irishman on the planet stuggling to get a CPL. Drop me an email if you want to get in contact and we can chew the cud a little!

Irlandés

[Whirlybird]

Whirly's been away for the weekend, so not posting for a change. ;)

I don't know what's best; I wish I did. It's definitely a good idea to do the ground exams earlier rather than later. Apart from that, I'm not sure it's worth doing a turbine conversion at least until after you've done the CPl course. And since there doesn't seem to be much/any work for low hours CPLs right now anyway, perhaps it makes more sense to do everything on the R22, or do most of your hour building in the US or Oz or SA where it's cheaper. As far as I can gather, now the North Sea aren't recruiting, you're unlikely to be able to pay for enough hours for anyone to give you a job, and instructing seems to have the only openings. And you're likely to instruct on R22s, so it makes sense to get your hours on them. But I don't really know to be honest, and I'm not aure anyone else does either.

[buttline]

Fionnan,

I've just completed the JAR ATPL / CPL(H) on a full-time course in Florida. I believe you only need to do the ATPL level exams if you want to fly larger (> 9 PAX eg North Sea) helicopters, otherwise CPL exams are enough if light charter is your end goal. If you are doing the ATPLs in the UK you will probably find yourself doing the fixed wing subjects and adding helicopter POF afterwards. No problem if you love all things aviation but there's an awful lot of stuff on FMS, INS and 737 systems that is not particularly relevent to helicopters. Before doing anything for the CPL, make sure you can get a Class 1 medical (initial must be at Gatwick for a CAA issued license).

The British Helicopter Advisory Board has some useful info on the industry. http://www.bhab.demon.co.uk/

If money is the main factor, the cheapest route to a paid job is probably to become an FAA instructor and teach in the U.S. on a J1 visa (because you now need 300hrs before you can do the JAA FI course). The conversion from a JAR CPL to an FAA CPL is not a big deal and would take about 2 weeks ground study and 5-6 hrs of flying, the FAA FI course lasts about 2-3 months and you'll need about 200hrs total time before flight schools in the U.S. will take you on. Pay range is about $15 - $40 an hour. 1000hrs seems to be the magic number to start looking for other work although I know instructors with 2000hrs who are struggling to get their first position at the moment. Instructors at busy schools such as HAI, Florida or Quantum, Dallas can get 800hrs + a year.

Feel free to mail me if you have any questions about the ATPL exams.

Good luck

[Flare Dammit!]

I'm always amused by guys like Aultguish who say things like, "...I've already prepared my family that I will probably have to head abroad and do the less paid, less glamorous jobs, that hopefully no one else wants to do, apart from me." First question: Do people believe that there really are such jobs out there?

...And by "heading abroad" you presumably mean to the U.S.? Or perhaps down here to Oz to do cattle mustering? Do you mean that since there isn't a market for your particular less-than-adequate experience in your own country, you'll head to another country to dilute their own pilot pool and scarf a job that might go to a more experienced pilot for more money? How noble of you! Come on down!

First, let us allow that even the lowest-rung helicopter jobs are PIC positions which require PIC qualifications. Oh, we might like to think that there are power-line patrol or traffic-watch or some other such type of job out there that nobody else wants to do so therefore you could slide right in. Sorry, Charlie. It doesn't work that way.

Those particular jobs are not open to pilots with a fresh CPL(H), and there are already plenty of applicants for them, mostly from guys who don't qualify under the insurance but would gladly "fly for free" just for the flight time. Even the Bell 47s that are hopping rides at state fairs are usually run by an owner/pilot. If he has to hire a relief or extra pilot, he's going to look for someone with more than a wet-ink license.

Admittedly, the first 1,000 hours are the hardest. If you get to that point, you're marketable (in the U.S.)

So...short of going in the military, how does a civilian-trained pilot get enough hours to get a job without spending a lifetime doing it? Easy: Instruct. Get your CPL(H), then your CFI. Then get a directory and find every helicopter flight school in the book; send them a resume or give them a call. Flight school owners know how "fluid" the CFI workforce is. (In other words, they know that their current instructors are probably not long for this world, and the get a feel for who's about to jump ship.) You'd be surprised at what kind of info or opportunity you might get from a phone call.

It's a tough industry to work in, and the road to "success" will be long and hard. But don't give up! It's worth it. The pay/benefits may be lousy to start, but it gets way better as you gain experience and flight time, believe you me. Why, in the U.S. alone there are guys who've been in this business for thirty years and are making HUGE amounts of money...and I mean, like, US$48,000/year! Oh. Sorry. Didn't mean to mention money. Ninety-nine percent of the pilots on this site would gladly forego their entire salary just to get to play with the sticks on a full-time basis. ...Which is I guess what makes this such a great career.

Have fun!

[buttline]

Fionan,

Lest Flaredammit's somewhat hostile view puts you off, many other very experienced pilots expressed the opposite view on a recent thread.... Looks to me like he lost the fight with the big boys and now wants to take a pop at the new kids! :-)

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=58285

But Flare is right to some extent. A new CPL is practically worthless for employment... Unless you can afford to get to at least 200hrs and think you'll enjoy instructing for at least a year or two, the options are thin if money is tight... To succeed in an aviation career seems to take an almost fanatical commitment that you don't see in most other vocations.

Even if you decide to just continue flying for fun, it's still good to have a goal and you'll undoutedly improve your skills on a CPL course. Check out the Private Flying forum also for an alternative perspective on flying without being paid..

[Flare Dammit!]

Buttwipe wrote:

Lest Flaredammit's somewhat hostile view puts you off, many other very experienced pilots expressed the opposite view on a recent thread.... Looks to me like he lost the fight with the big boys and now wants to take a pop at the new kids! :-)

Lost the fight? Grow up. What are you, in junior high school? There was no "fight."

But Flare is right to some extent. A new CPL is practically worthless for employment... Unless you can afford to get to at least 200hrs and think you'll enjoy instructing for at least a year or two, the options are thin if money is tight... To succeed in an aviation career seems to take an almost fanatical commitment that you don't see in most other vocations.

Yes, thank you for agreeing with me. I feel so much better now.

What I don't like is how people coming into this business get smoke blown up their arses by people *in* the business. Flight schools, yes, but experienced pilots too. Like...how newbies will be employable as soon as they get their CPL(H). Like...how this is such a great and wonderful career. It's almost as if the speaker gets some sort of perverse pleasure out of misleading the newbie.

Then the newbie gets into his training and finds out that A) his new commercial license will NOT allow him to get a job after all, and B) the jobs that are out there - even at the "journeyman" or very-experienced level pay WAAAAAY less than they "ought" to...way less than jobs in other risky, technical fields in which the participants have to be as highly qualified and experienced as we. Blimey!

I say: Let's be honest about this business. The ones who are truly dedicated to doing it for a living will perservere.

And if I'm not "PC" enough, screw you.

[buttline]

Crocodile Hunter said:

"Strewth! He's a bit grumpy this one!"

[Whirlybird]

buttline,

I agree; I definitely feel that the CPL was worth doing, even if it never gets me a job. I decided after I got my PPl that I'd never be happy just flying helicopters now and then and never really improving. That meant I could either end up with quite a lot more hours and nothing else to show for it, or do the ground exams (groan) and the CPL course and maybe, just maybe, get paid to fly in the future. Since I could afford to do it (sort of anyway), the choice was obvious - though I didn't say that in the middle of the ground exams. :eek: So I'd say go for it, but think twice before borrowing loads of dosh to do that - you might have a hard time paying it back.

Flare,

No-one cares that you're not PC - well, I don't anyway. But actually you'd make your point a lot more convincingly if you did so less forcefully.

Hmmm....do need to hide behind the parapet now? :D

[StevieTerrier]

Flare Dammit!

Always a pleasure to read your postings. You really have been beaten with the charm stick, haven't you? Is helicopter flying in Oz really that bad?

[aultguish]

Well Flare, arent you the happy one this morning.

Why take a dig at me? After selling my house and my car and scrounging money left right and centre, dont you think I know what the industry is like??
Just because I havent got licences and ratings coming out of my ear doesnt mean that I am a nobody.

Ok then, now that my heart has finished pounding and the veins in my neck have calmed down., I'll explain things a little clearer.

Firstly, I have no intention of heading off to Oz or anywhere as glamorous, I am fully aware of the job situations in those places.......why leave somewhere like the UK to go somewhere where my chances are nil also......give me some credit........the areas where I am going to chance my luck, are going to be these forgotten little places where even the guys with a few 1000hrs probably would not like to go (maybe some forgotten little country in the middle of deepest Africa), be it because of wages, family whatever...........is there something wrong with this, certainly in my previous careers it was considered an asset to put yourself out and chase positions and strive to better yourself. Rest assured, before I go anywhere, I will spend a long time researching the area, jobs, safety etc etc etc.

Secondly........."Less than adequate".........you where there once Flare!

I fully understand Flare, that when I get my CPL that it is not an opening to an automatic job, it may take me years to get that first position but I'll get it in the end, after all, all you guys out there with your thousands of hours got yours........one day I'll have my thousands of hours also. The one thing that I am not going to do however, is sit there and not try just because of low hours, every heli company in the uk is going to get my cv, I'm going to be turning up on doorsteps offering to wash helicopters and make tea, heck, I'll even shine the wings on the bosses jacket:D

I hope you dont take this as a personal dig Flare, I am just defending myself. I do take onboard the useful information that you have mentioned, not just in this thread but previous posts that you have left. I always listen and always will, to more experienced pilots but I also listen to less experienced pilots, we all have our own stories to tell.
The bulk of my information comes from two very experienced pilots who are out there plodding the North Sea......so far, their information has been spot on.

Thank you

[What-ho Squiffy!]

Whew, it's getting hot in here...:eek:

[ClearBlueWater]

Fionnan, I wouldn't disagree with any of the points made above but flying a turbine will add a new dimension to your experience and help you maintain enthusiasm during the dark days of CPL theory study! The down side of course is the enormous cost of turbine flying. That said there is a way of bringing it in line with R22 hire costs...

Chuck Street flies a B206 for the KIISFM traffic watch in LA. He'll sell the left seat to you for USD 135 per hour which is about half the price of all in R22 hire in the UK. You'll need to do a B206 rating before you go in order for the hours to count towards your CPL but my personal experience was that about 70 hours of flying the traffic watch saved the cost of the type rating, flight to LA and accomodation costs for three weeks, bringing the total cost into line with that self fly hire of an R22 for the same number of hours in the UK.

One other piece of advice, given the fact you are unlikely to be well paid when you do get a flying job I don't think it is advisable to borrow money to buy hours. I'm amazed at how many people do this. If you don't owe anyone anything you'll be that much freer to find that low paid dream job being shot at in Sudan.

[Flare Dammit!]

As if trying to force us to believe that he is "sane" and "rational," Aultguish asks:

After selling my house and my car and scrounging money left right and centre, dont you think I know what the industry is like??

Crikey! Ault, ol' buddy, in my career I have met plenty of pilots who have gone through to CPL(H) with virtually NO idea as to what this industry was really like. These blokes call me up with ZERO flight time/experience and ask if they can come and fly for me...or if I can find them a job someplace, anyplace...or if I can get them on with (insert name of company here). So, you've got a handle on this? Good on ya!

the areas where I am going to chance my luck, are going to be these forgotten little places where even the guys with a few 1000hrs probably would not like to go (maybe some forgotten little country in the middle of deepest Africa), be it because of wages, family whatever...........is there something wrong with this

Not if you take a lot of LSD. Then it might seem perfectly reasonable and realistic. But hey, you're welcome to your fantasies.

Secondly........."Less than adequate".........you were there once Flare!

Nope. Do not presume to know where I came from to get where I am in this business.

The one thing that I am not going to do however, is sit there and not try just because of low hours, every heli company in the uk is going to get my cv, I'm going to be turning up on doorsteps offering to wash helicopters and make tea, heck, I'll even shine the wings on the bosses jacket

You want to play boy-slave and arse-kiss some Chief Pilot? Come to my place! I'm sure I'll find some duties for you to, um, "perform." Hell, it's been happening to commercial helicopter pilots for years, and they seem to enjoy it. However, my other pilots might be a little offended. You know how territorial prostitutes can be when a new 'ho in town shows up. But heh-heh, I do love to watch 'em fight! It keeps them too occupied to bother Big Daddy Pimp (me) for mo' money.

I always listen and always will, to more experienced pilots but I also listen to less experienced pilots, we all have our own stories to tell.

Yes, best cure for insomnia around. Personally, I never listen to stories by less experienced pilots (meaning: pilots with less total time than me). I don't even listen much to pilots with MORE experience than me. I mean, at this stage of the game, what's left to learn? I pretty much know it all by now. And my time is too valuable to waste. In the first place, low-timers all think they're Ken Wallis or...who's that Yank that everyone seems to think is God (no, not Nick Lappos)...Yeager-something?

Every low-timer I've ever met tried to impress me with his vast knowledge and unparalleled skill. And I walk away thinking, "Man, that Robbo pilot sure has done a heckuva lot of flying in 500 hours! Wow! I didn't even know the R-22 could lift that much on the hook! Sheee-ZAM!"

And low-time ex-mil pilots who have 100 hours in a Blackhawk? Let's not even TALK about those mighty men among men...the true superpilots of our industry. But I can't wait for the MV-22 pilots to start strutting around the aerodrome. Lookout! And we all thought surgeons had big egos! Osprey pilots are going to be worse than Comanche pilots...oh wait, the Comanche will never see service, so I guess that comparison is invalid.

Sorry, but I digress.

Well anyway Ault ol' sport, all kidding aside, best of luck in your job search. But let me leave you with one bit of incredibly valuable advice, worth every tuppence you're paying for it. Someone said that it is better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone assume you're a fool than open it and remove all doubt. (It is advice that I do not personally follow, but I don't care, I have more flight time than you, nyah nyah nyah.) Let your logbook and your flying abilities speak for you. You will find that what you do and how you do it tells a far more interesting and complete story than anything you tell people you do.

That is our lesson for today. Class dismissed.

[Cron]

Does anyone know of anyone offering the ground school for JAA CPL(H) yet.

What folk's opinions as to whether it will ever be offered?

Many thanks

[advancing_blade]

The view that I've heard put around, is that it won't be commercially viable for the providers.

Take a deep breath and go for the ATP's

[callmeshirley]

:confused:
Greetings rotorheads!
Just a quick question regarding the ATPL theory for (H). Just how different is it from Aeroplane Ground School? I am a PPL(A) holder(MIN requirement for rotor wing sponsorship consideration I`m told) and will not have the money to fly for quite some time and would like to do the ground theory now when I have as much time as I`m ever likely to have. It is actually helocopters that I wish to fly but do you think prospective employers would frown at fixed wing theory? The reason I would choose fixed wing theory is that even in these hard times I am more likely to get a fixed wing occupation. Eggs and baskets I think.
Any help/advice/realignment much needed and desperately wanted!
Callmeshirley.

[ATPMBA]

I'm qualified to answer your question. I am working on my ATPL(H) theory through Ground Training Services, they modified their FW program under interim CAA arrangements. Originally I was told the interim arrangements were good until 12/31/2004, however, I just read a post where it seems like this arrangement might become permanent as helicopter exams are on hold.

To answer your question most of the components are they same as FW, for helicopter they are using the UK CAA syllabus for the following areas: Principles of Flight Helicopters, Engines, Electrics, and Helicopter Systems.

I have 4000 hours of FW and it's boring, helicopters are neat!
Helicopter flying is raw flying, real flying !
In the airlines you can make good money but they way the industry is going now you can be furloughed anywhere from 1-5 years or more, I know of Pan Am guys who never went back.
Airline pilots today are more like computer operators, typing stuff into their MDU's. I also heard on the news today that SAS airlines was planning to furlough 400 pilots. If your flying FW and a lot of pilots are on furlough you will end up competing with them for jobs.

In the states one major airline is in bankruptcy and United might be next. CHC, Offshore Logistics, and Petroleum Helicopters each has more market capitalisation (stock price time number of shares) than United Airlines.

You should look into coming to the states to do your CPL(H) and CFI. For a CPL you need 150 hours and a CFI could be 15-25. To get a job instructing you may need 200 hours of heli time.
Get a J1 visa which would allow you to work here, check into this as things change. Be careful, I heard one story were a pilot got his CPL in his home country and then denied a J1 as he already had a CPL. I was trained by Norwegians who went this route and all 4 of them went home with 1000 hours of heli time.
One of them told me that he should of come to the U.S. under a tourist visa to do his PPL(H) and then come back under a J1 for the CPL(H), he would then have more time to instruct and build time.

This could be interesting times for heli pilots. In a recent discussion with one of my ex-instructors, now flying a S-76, made a comment that in the next 10 years a lot of pilots are going to retire and things will get interesting. Now this is in the states, the U.K. could be different. Things to look at is the growth of helicopters (usually slow), age of the pilot base, new pilots training for helicopters, number of military helicopter pilots training and leaving the service. Also, how is the oil supply holding up in the North Sea, number of years until the reserves are depleted.


Best of Luck, post any other questions you may have.

:)

[Dai Chopper]

I did the exams the other way round - ie rotary licence used to gain exemptions for ATPL(A). The only difference was the PofF for rotary as all the other systems were common. There were a few questions on heli systems in one paper. However, the new exams may be different.

The best advice I can propose is calling Alex Whittingham at Bristol Groundschool - he is also on this forum (see delayed exams thread). He has his finger on the pulse ref what you NEED to know and is a fine instructor to boot. What you need to know in the cockpit is slightly different! When I took the Hel PofF the exam wasn't written by a rotary pilot! Good Luck.:)

[DBChopper]

Greetings fellow Rotorheads,

Now, this is a bit of an idle enquiry, but if any of you CPL's fancy giving your opinion then I'd be grateful...

I'm a PPL(H) with 105hrs in the R22. I plan to do the CPL(H) and I'm slowly building the hours. I'm in the pleasant position that I enjoy my job so I have no plans to give it all up for helicoptering and there's no rush to complete the CPL. It's just something I'd like to do with the licence...

My questions are: (i) has anyone any views on the best place to complete the ground exams? Any good or bad recent reports? (ii) if I get to the stage of having a CPL(H), with hours only on the R22 (although I'm toying with the R44 conversion), what is the next best step? More hours, I suppose, to make me employable, but the B206 conversion would seem sensible too, simply because of the number of them about.

Any opinions are welcome, along with any cold cures because I'm currently grounded by my third this winter! :(

DBChopper

[Whirlybird]

DBChopper,

I'd definitely recommend Bristol Ground School for the exams. You'll have to do the specific helicopter ones more or less alone (unless that's changed since I did mine), but they are excellent otherwise.

What to do next? I wish I knew. Most of us in your kind of position gradually get to 300 rotary hours, then do an instructors course. Of course, that means the UK helo world is drowning in newish AFIs, with a shortage of QHIs. I did the R44 conversion... and haven't flown it since. I asked if it was worth doing a B206 conversion, and was told it wasn't really worth doing a conversion for its own sake; you can do it when you need it. I did a US quickie conversion anyway in California and flew 25 hours with the Traffic Watch guy on the B206 - great fun, good experience, but is it likely to make me employable? I doubt it. Of course, I haven't tried that hard for work. I do know one newish CPL who got some part time work - he knew the right people and was in the right place at the right time. You could do an instrument rating at a cost of £23,000 ( I think) and maybe (but only maybe) get a right hand seat on the North Sea. Or you could go abroad - probably the best option if you really want to fly helicopters for a living.

Sorry to be so negative - I'm not really because I've done the same thing and I think it's all been worth it - but that's how I see it.

Good luck (so long as you don't take my job anyway :D )

[whirlycopter]

I can also recommend Bristol Ground School .

Good luck!

[Woolf]

Must agree with Whirlybird - not easy at all! I think the most important thing is to be absolutely sure that you want to fly helos for a living - 100% commitment is a must and unless you are extremely lucky, a lot of personal sacrifice. But having said that if you really want to - there is always a way!

Hey Whirly, right hand seat = commanders seat, we lowly co-pilots have to take the left hand seat (=all the leaks and you can´t use your cupholder because of all the vibration there!) - but I am sure you knew that! ;-)

Good luck hope it works out for you!

[Cron]

Going sideways a bit here but am I barking up the wrong tree by thinking that if one has say 22's, 44's and 206 conversions then would the likelyhood of freebes increase?

[Whirlybird]

Woolf,
Time I knew right from left isn't it. Maybe I should get some of those red and green socks. :D


Cron,
I was told no, but you could be right. Probably down to a mixture of luck, persistence, where you live, who you know - can't do any harm, but keeping all those types current could be expensive. Try it and let me know. ;)

[kissmysquirrel]

CRON:
I have a CPL(H) and Instructors(R) rating plus the 22,44 and 206 on my licence in the belief it made you more employable. It's definitely not the case. I think most people will agree with me that it's not what you know, but who you know in this industry.

Just the 206 rating alone is expensive but you need a few hours before anyone will let you lose with a more expensive machine. Unless of course anyone knows otherwise?

[SFIM]

i think you should get all the ratings you can,cos you never know when you will be useful, I got a lot of 206 time doing engineering flights, cos the engineers attitude was that if you had the rating you were legal.

also as far as instructing goes most likely place you will get it is wher you did your instructor course, I did more than 1000 hours flight instruction at the place I did my course, and that started with the CFI saying i could only do the odd trial lesson every now and then ( from small acorns mighty oaks yada yada yada)

unforunately it is a very cynical business, people will always tell you you have the wrong experience when it suits them but anything goes if they need you, i have seen people being sent off in a 206 cross country by someone who wouldnt let them start it themselves, because they didnt trust them not to overtemp it, but they did trust them to fly it apparently.

lately people have been telling me I have too much IFR time, they used to say I didnt have an instrument rating. apparently I cant navigate anymore visually, they never said that when I was flying robinsons.

in some ways the heli business is fun in a lot of others it is sh*te

[Cron]

I appreciate it is probably on the CAA site but I'm at work on my break and require the bitter truth as to keeping types on Licence, don't tell me, 5hrs on each per year?

[Whirlybird]

No Cron, only two hours per type I believe. Not really that bad, but a lot of money if all you're doing is keeping the rating in order to keep the rating.

[northern flyer]

Why does the JAR-FCL CPL(H) require 500 hours of theoretical training when the CPL(A) only requires 200?

[Go-Around]

As far as I can remember, the ATPL(A) theory is 800hrs.
I didn't think that many people did the basic CPL stuff anymore, but please feel free to correct me.

I stand corrected. From LASORS

Modular CPL(A)
The course consists of a minimum of 25 hours of
flying training and 200 hours of theoretical
knowledge instruction for CPL(A) and 650 hours
theoretical knowledge instruction for ATPL(A).

Modular CPL(H)
The course consists of a minimum of 30 hours of
flying training and 500 hours of theoretical
knowledge instruction, for CPL(H) and 650 hours
theoretical knowledge instruction for ATPL(H).
courses.

[Helinut]

It may only be of theoretical interest, since there will be few opportunities to just do a CPL course, but the reason will be fascinating.............. Except that no one will ever take responsibility for it, and it was probably just a typo when they copied the fixed wing stuff wholesale from JAR FCL1.

[northern flyer]

I have been told that under the JAR's, for helicopters there is no ATPL theory, only CPL (500hrs) + IR theory... strange really.:rolleyes:

[Go-Around]

Northern Flyer,

From LASORS again,

Airline Transport Pilot (Helicopter)
Integrated Course

The aim of this course is to train pilots to the level
of proficiency necessary to enable them to operate
as co-pilot on multi-pilot, multi-engine helicopters in
commercial air transportation and to obtain the
CPL(H)/IR but not any further specialisation (e.g.
aerial work activities).
The course consists of a minimum of 195 hours of
flying training and 750 hours of theoretical
knowledge instruction. The course also includes
training in multi-crew co-operation for the operation
of multi-pilot helicopters.

[northern flyer]

To quote JAR-FCL 2:

2.285 Theoretical Knowledge

'The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) satisfies knowledge requirements for the issue of an ATPL(H)'

So... I guess there is not actually ATPL(H) level theory´but maybe an ATPL(H) integrated course!!!

[ChopperJockey]

I'm about to start my commercial helicopter license, probably via distance learning on a modular course and I was wondering if anybody particularly recommends any school (i.e. Oxford, Guildhall, Cabair, Bristol etc.) as I'm really unsure which one to go for.

I have a PPL(A) and PPL(H) with insructors rating and have taught for about 6 months.

Any ideas?

[Whirlybird]

I too used bristol, and I entirely agree with kissmysquirrel. :ok:

[ClearBlueWater]

I concur with the above and although I don't know the current prices when I did it BGS compared favourably with most other reputable establishments.

[Student-pilot]

Hello,

I currently hold a CPLA in Australia with about 300 hrs and now want to venture into the world of the angry palm trees, and I'd like some suggestions on where to train?

I'm looking at doing the theory before I start flight training and was wondering what are the best books for home study, as I already have my CPLA I will only need to do Flight planning, Aerodynamics, Systems and Airlaw.

Thanks in Advance.

SP.

[pohm1]

Try www.aft.com.au for aviation theory (A or H) or call Professional Helicopter Services in Melbourne on 03 95807433, Phil does the theory classes and will be able to advise you on your needs. (I think they also offer online theory.)

[headsethair]

I want to do my JAR-FCL Commercial Heli license. I have the hours & I'll soon have the medical. How/where can I do the (H) theory ? The CAA's website offers one institution - but it's in Florida. It says that "interim" courses are available at 7 UK locations. But doesn't interim mean learning a load of fixed wing stuff ?
Where's the dedicated (H) Theory ? And is there a Distance Learning version ?

[Slotty]

Sad I know but you are required to learn lots of fixed wing stuff, Bristol, Cabair and Oxford are just a few who offer distance learning, it can be frustrating but thats just the way it is, Sorry:(

[Jarvy]

The old CAA exams mostly comprised fixed wing stuff
and it was thought that under JAA there would be
helicopter specific exams but due to a very small
helicopter question bank it has not been posible.
So yes you must do the fixed wing stuff exept POF(A)
and PERF ,but POF(H) instead. I'm doing mine with
Bristol :D

[headsethair]

Thanks both. I did speak with Atlantic in Coventry. They are hoping to have a dedicated (H) Theory distance learning course in 5 or 6 weeks.
Maybe I'm naive, but this all seems a bit "amateur night out" - shouldn't our regulatory bodies be doing everything possible to ensure availability of relevant, highest standard training?
Seems bizarre that the sole (H) Theory recommendation from the CAA is in Florida! :confused: :eek: :( :mad:

[Slotty]

.....shouldn't our regulatory bodies be doing everything possible to ensure availability of relevant, highest standard training?...

Great one!! Can you imagine what it'll be like when we get the EAA take over? If its just PofF(H) you may be able to get some one on one tuition from the main schools. I'm sure it will all be ready just in time to change over from JAA to EAA. Good Luck!!

:O

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Hello there

Quick question.

What is required for a corporate Frozen ATPL (A) with 1k hours all fixed wing need to do to obtain a CPL/ATPL (H). Do I get ATPL credits on Exams etc etc. Would suspect theres going to be some (H) POF exams to do, what about PPl (H) exams???

Hours requirements??

I have an FI rating (Fixed Wing) how many hours involved in FI (rotary).

Sorry to be any trouble, all answers/info gratefully received!

Ta

[MightyGem]

Why not ask those nice people at Gatwick? Get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

[ShyTorque]

I agree,

What with JAR changes etc, best to ask the CAA.

See if they know :)

[The Nr Fairy]

I have found a one-day single-pilot CRM course, to be run at London Metropolitan University in the next month or so. There are 2 places left (I've booked mine, don't worry!). Anyone up for it ?

Cost - £150 per seat, if all 6 seats get filled we **may** get a reduction.

Current mooted date - 24th June. Yep, got the holiday request in !

What's included ? The first part of the day will be taken up going over HPL, a revision paper for which will have been sent out to be completed prior to the course. The rest of the day desla with single pilot CRM stuff. Dunno what it's all about, ask me AFTER the course.

Date and price is subject to change ( the price subject to change downwards, not up and not guaranteed). The course is being organised by someone other than me, but I'll liaise and put you in touch with them directly should you so wish.

If there's anyone in need of such a course, drop me a PM or email [email protected]. And if more encouragement were needed, perhaps I could suggest a post-course mini London bash ?

Mods - can you make this sticky for 10 days or so ?

[Snoop]

I have had a search through the forum, but have not been able to find a definite answer to this.

I have a UK CAA FATPL(A) with associated IR and 426 hours tt. No rotary experience.

I am looking to find out what I would have to do to get a CPL(H) & IR issued and a rough idea of the cost. This would be with a view to trying to get a job as an FO flying offshore ops.

I know that I will have to re-sit principals of flight for helicopters and I believe I will have to 110 hours of rotary flying and subsequent skills test to get the CPL(H). I would then of course have to do an IR. However I have not been able to confirm any of this and seem to get differing answers when I talk to training organisations.

Has anybody tried this with any success and what did you have to do?

[redbar1]

Hi Snoop,
If you get hold of JAR-FCL 2 (Amd. 2 version), you'll find all the details regarding the credits given in:

Theory credits: Appx 1 to JAR-FCL 2.050, Subpart A, page 1-A-18 will give you a comprehensive list.

Flying credits towards the CPL(H): JAR-FCL 2.155, Subpart D, page 1-D-1, with further references. This crediting is a little complex and dependant upon a number of issues, so you will have to look up your own relevant situation.

The IR(H)-related info you will find in Subpart E.

You can also find the FCL 2 on the JAA website (jaa.nl), select 'JARs' then 'Section 1', and you'll find them all there.

Good luck, and cheers.

[Snoop]

Many thanks redbar1.

Will check out the website.

[gulliBell]

Whilst I wouldn't want to discourage our fixed wing friends from making the leap to helicopters, they should be aware that a newly qualified CPL(H) with IR doesn't usually mean they're qualified for an entry level job in the helicopter offshore support industry. Oil company aviation advisors are very particular with setting minimum experience requirements for pilots. Even entry level offshore co-pilots usually require at least 500 helicopter flying hours experience in order to meet minimum experience requirements. So if you're planning on getting a CPL(H) then great, but be aware you'll probably need at least a year of solid PIC helicopter flying experience before being looked at for an FO job by most oil companies (unless of course you're prepared to work in Africa where you only need 200 hours helicopter time for some offshore co-pilot jobs).

[The Nr Fairy]

Baze :

I've tried PM'ing with no joy. Can you drop me a line at [email protected] ?

[Cron]

Any recommendations please?

[headsethair]

Just heard that Atlantic Aviation are close ("maybe 3 weeks") to being able to offer the distance learning JAR CPL(H) theory.

[DBChopper]

I'm looking to start studying within the next year and have had Bristol Ground School recommended by almost everybody I've asked.

[Martin1234]

Note that with Bristol you need to read the fixed-wing counterpart in regards to the airframes and systems exam.

[heliheaven]

I think you will find that if you use Bristol Groundschool you will have to do the ATPL exams. Still bite the bullet there are good notes and good support. Oh and dont tell anyone but they are quite interesting!! Does that make me SAD!:8

[simfly]

Im pretty sure that you have no choice but to to the ATPL's now, dont think CPL's exist.

[floppyjock]

Bristol dont do the CPL (H) distance learning only ATPL and recommended Atlantic to me.

I signed on with Atlantic this week. They are expecting the final nod from the CAA any day.

Floppy

[Whirlygig]

I've just tried to find a website for Atlantic Aviation but failed.

Please could somebody post a link or give contact details.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[DBChopper]

Talking of studying...

How much of a difference is there in the work/studying/depth of knowledge required between the CPL and the ATPL?

Am I right in thinking that most used to do the ATPL exams but now that they are only required for multi-crew machines more people do the CPL?

Thanks...
:confused:

[Helinut]

DB Chopper,

In the UK and pre-JAR FCL there only was one set of helicopter exams for both CPL and ATPL (H). The only difference between the two licences was how many hours flying timeyou had. When JAR FCL arrived for heles, they copied the fixed wing definition across for the two licences - In practice it does not make much sense in the UK but the committee that made the decision only had one pilot on it!

[cyclic_fondler]

Whirlygig - use /www.flyaft.com

They only talk about ATPL and CPL(A) there at the moment, no mention of a helicourse :(

floppyjock - what's the course sylabus as I heared a rumour (!) that there's only 7 exams involved ? Is this true or just wishfull thinking !!!

[floppyjock]

Not sure i,ll let you know when the paperwork gets here.

Floppy

[rotorrookie]

Theory on the JAR ATPL(A) courses 40% needtoknow
50% nicetoknow
10% crap
For example it really sucks that you have learn flight planning on B-737 across the Atlantic.
:* and the FCL,2 is no good and full of fixed wing crap that does not work for helicopters. :ugh:

[Martin1234]

...or the "need" to know how a pressurized cabin work, or how to best manage "jet lag" when travelling through time zones. I agree that it's almost unmanageable to cope with the great time difference when flying from London to Paris.

It's awkward that they tend to ask questions about the terminology instead of the knowledge behind the terminology.

[Darren999]

Floppyjock,

If you could post a note on here when you know about the exams that would be great. I'm looking to underatke the CPL (H) soon, and after reading this page may go to Atlantic, and if there are now only 7 exams that would be marvellous! I'm in America building hours as a flight instructor on Bell 47's.
Hope to be home soon.

Darren

[Cron]

9 exams
Atlantic Flight Training
R

[2bart]

Bristol my fellow buddies say is good with new cdrom learning packages but exempt some exams.

[quidam]

Finished hybrid ATPL(H) course with Bristol in August :p

Didn't have to take fixed wing performance paper :p

Found course notes to be excellent. Brush up courses even better and exam feedback superb.

All groundschool instructors know their stuff and the guy they use for Aircraft Gen and rotary PoF was a god send

Did whole lot in 11 months whilst working full time. Even as a 100hrs heli student with zero prior fixed wing knowledge passed all exams first time.

Heard rumour that a JAA ATPL(H) syllabus might be coming, but thought CPL plans had been scrapped :confused:

Appreciate current examining situation is far from heli friendly but I couldn't fault BGS :ok:

[frequincyadaptor]

it is true that there is a lot of none relevant stuff in the theory but its a hoop that you have to go through
Oxford avaition is where i went and it is the best, they will get you through without any messing, take my word for it, they are good not the cheapest but hell this is aviation but if you are serious about first time pass then get there

[wobs]

I want to start CPL(H) by distance learning as soon as I've got my class 1. dit a bit of phoning around a few weeks ago. spoke to ATA , Bristol, Oxford, Cabair & AFT.
Only AFT had a distance learning course, so not much of a choice to make.
Spoke to Nigel Roche at AFT, said they already had CAA aproval for the first half of the course & were expexting second part to be aproved "any day", this was in october.
I see on their web site that CPL(H) distance learning is now available £1495.
Only option for me i still have to live & pay the bills !!



I am not the messiah!

[Decimal]

Hi All

Does anyone know of any way that you can reduce the time/no. of weeks study that the UK CAA and theory FTOs insist that you do, prior to being recommended for JAA CPL(H) exams if you hold a professional licence from a non JAA member state?

There seems to be zero recognised reciprocity between a CAA approved theory course and a relatively similar course in a non JAA state. i.e. you would have to undergo approx 30 weeks self study (CPL) or 6months (ATPL). The FTOs and the CAA pass the buck back and forth as to whose responsibility it is to make a dispensation or credit in light of previous experience.

I appreciate that I would have to study - a lot, and pass all exams. No argument there. But surely not as much as someone who is totally "green" or a PPL.

At the moment, one option open to me is to go to Norway where their CAA will approve me for the exams at the FTOs discretion, who have agreed that 1 month in the classroom should be sufficient for the whole lot. This seems incredible to me, that a country with around 4 million and English their 2nd language can do this, yet the UK are still dragging their heels on this issue, amongst other FCL2 issues.
I would rather do this in the UK, so any ideas?

Any suggestions/comments appreciated - PM if you wish.

Decimal

[Heli-Ice]

Hi Decimal.

I think you can't get any more reducion on the study time. I guess you'll have to study hard to pull through the 14 exams if you haven't studied the JAR stuff, they are tough.

I have been asking around the JAA countries for the last 2 years about this same thing but I have never gotten a sensible answer from anyone, doesn't matter if it was CAA or FTO's! No one wants to be the first step to do this for you.

Do your theory at this FTO you found in Norway, no question about it, and please give us the name of it for us to do the same, they might even give you a discount on the course if the business picks up ;-)

Good luck.

Heli-Ice

[CyclicRick]

I had the same problem with my German ATPL. The CAA quoted me ALL 14 subjects and 50 hours flying to get a UK-JAA license.

They introduced JAA-FCL here last May so my licence will be automatically converted to JAA now upon re-newal in April after doing a ONE DAY seminar on differences.
Makes you wonder what the hell the big deal is supposed to be doesn't it!

Try Austria, I've heard they might be a little easier going at the moment but apparantly not for long so hurry up!

Good luck :ok:

[Decimal]

Heli-Ice -

I would understand having to study for quite some period for the ATPL stuff -14 exams (still based around fixed wing!). But I read early in 2003 in Lasors, that there were exam dates for subjects pertaining to CPL(H) - 9 exams in all. When I asked the CAA if I could self study (as there is a wealth of relevant study material out there) and then write the exams - I was refused, told I had to go to an approved theory FTO to get the study packs. But at that time, no-one was doing an approved course - in fact right now no-one has a fully approved course.

SO, the CAA have specific dates for exams, where no-one is allowed to turn up and write the exams - good eh? When asked if they had a syllabus for the course material (as do most other countries) - the CAA replied "No, that is the responsibility of the FTO"

For the majority of work in the UK, an ATPL is not required. Why should you have to write the 14 exams, then find a couple of years later you don`t meet the experience requirement to "unfreeze", and have to write again! Fortunately, the CAA do have plans to introduce "bridging" exams to go from CPL to ATPL in the near future. Too little to late I fear.

I`ll PM you the Norway school - but I would suspect that all of the four main ones will do this.

CyclicRick - I`m not sure about Austria, but Norway`s general English is excellent (compared to our Norwegian!) and the written exams can be in English aswell. Glad to hear your getting yourself sorted with the JAA licence.

I`d like to hear from anyone that has personal experience of this or similar - `cos I don`t think I`m the only one.

Thanks guys

Decimal

[Whirlygig]

in fact right now no-one has a fully approved course.

Decimal,

There is a company, based near Coventry, that, I believe has approval for CPL(H) theory. Called Atlantic Flight Training and there has been a previous thread about them which I can't work out how to post but search for CPL(H) Groundschool.


Cheers

Whirlygig

[Decimal]

Whirlygig,

Thanks - I have looked into them, and this is where the problem stems. The CAA and AFT want the other one to make the concessions. The CAA say they do not have a problem with doing their course at an accelerated pace, provided it is in line with AFT`s approved course guidelines - which is phases 1 & 2, 15 hrs self study per week for a total of 30 weeks. This is still over 6 months - which I understand would cater for someone new to the rotary world -but not someone with previous knowledge.

Plenty of approved fixed wing FTOs doing ATPL theory, give credit at the discretion of the head of training if you have a non JAA ATPL - and it does vary with experience. So far my emails to AFT have gone unanswered.

I believe AFT are awaiting CAA approval for phase 2.

Oh the splendid JAA.....If it aint broke don`t fix it.

Cheers

Decimal

[floppyjock]

Hi all

Ive been on the AFT CPL (H) study for 2 months now.

About 90% of the subjects Ive never come across before and I have an FAA CPL(H) and (A) with IR.
I was also an army pilot with 1500+ hours on heli so I was short of the 2000 to get the exemptions to the exams.

As the army dont cover most of the subjects, hasnt the CAA openly admited that the exams are total b*****ks in the first place. When will I ever fly a heli at FL 330 over the atlantic for christ sake.

The CAA is also compromised my safety as the cost for doing the study and exams means I can no longer keep my flying currency.

Floppy (pissed off)

[Decimal]

Floppy

I know how pissed off you must be. Essentially the theory accounts for about 5% safety, and the rest the practical flying test.

Why have the UK CAA taken over 3 years to get JAA FCL2 into shape? When other countries have done it ..no problem.

I am probably opening up a can of worms here.... but do UK pilots still think they have some kind of elitism over foreign pilots? that then migrates to the CAA in some way.

How many items in everyones AIP coiincide with every other? Answer 98%

I am sorry floppy, for doubting you, but I think 90% is a little exaggerated. I might guess 15%. I know there are differences, but apart from Air Law; Bells are Bells, Aerodynamics don`t change, humans don`t change, nor does RT, on top of that you need a good sense of mental arithmetic!!

Without wanting to piss of the FAA community, I have friends that have said to me that they have read(or were given) the FAA exam papers prior to writing them, and they are a walk in the park.( CPL only!!) But that is a system fault with the FTOs. I am not surpirised that the UK CAA takes exception to them, becuase of that reputation. NB - that does not mean FAA pilots are substandard - this is purely theory . Remember that the whole idea of JAA, is to achieve harmonistion with the FAA - not Europe!!

Other International CAA`s have reputable systems, far more helo pilots per head than the UK,far less accident/incident, rates yet our UK CAA expects everyone else to follow suit, when other countries have a vast amount more experience than them.

I suggest boycott the b@stards - WHO`S WITH ME?

I can`t wait for the replies to this one

DECIMAL .

PS. Floppy, hope you`re finding the material good. Surprised the CAA couldn`t give you an equivalent licence based on your military background without too much fuss - they like that.... But soon the military pool will run dry.........

[Watchoutbelow]

If you have a military backround you could get a job working for the CAA, seems like a job for the boys type organisation, run by people who have no understanding, knowledge or respect for the commercial operators or pilots.

As for the FAA Cpl written exams, all the questions are their in a question bank, so technically yes you could learn them all, but realistiaclly you have to know what is going on, if you don't and manage to fluke a pass it will show in the oral portion of the test.

As for eliteism, I have been through both systems, and think the FAA while it does have its short falls is a far superior system, and will go on to make a safer pilot, so many people can go on to get an Instrument rating in the FAA system and may even have a bit of spare change, to further taining, that is unheard of in the JAA system.

Boycotting the CAA would be great but they really got us by the balls. Hopefully one day it will regulate itself out of exsistence.

[ossie_lation]

I have info. for cpl(h) from Atlantic flight training. Does anyone know where else it can be done or has anyone used AFT for their cpl exams. Thanks

[Martin1234]

Will there be an IR only theoretical helicopter course in the near future?

Also, do we know for sure that it will be enough with CPL+IR in order to get an ATPL issued in the foreseeable future?

[Darren999]

Has anybody heard the rumour that they are thinking of dropping the CPL(H) exams down to 7?

Looking to sit the writtens only, I know people may have asked. Any ideas greatly appriciated..

Darren

[TOT]

OSSIE CHECK YOUR PM

TOT

[chopski]

Hi all,

Have heard that the JAA now have a cplh theory package available as an alternative to the ATPL.

Is this correct? Iam not in the Uk to call them up so any help would be great.

Cheers:=

[cyclic_fondler]

Atlantic Flight Training do a cpl(H) which comprises of 9 exams


1. Air Law
2. Human Performance and Limitations
3. Meteorology
4. Navigation
5. VFR Communications
6. Operational Procedures
7. Aircraft General Knowledge
8. Flight Performance and Planning
9. Helicopter Principles of Flight

rather than 13 for the ATPL.

[Banjo]

Just a thought for you to consider,

If you were to think of applying for an offshore position or other work that may require an Inst. rating then these exams would not cover you and you would have to sit the required jaa exams at the atpl level.

Could be worth simply sitting them in the first place, as charlie says at least the atpl's are a known quantity with plenty of feedback to target the areas you need to learn.

[PIC]

It is an option to do the ATPL exams straight off, but all you actually get is a frozen ATPL, which means you are unable to exercise the privaleges of said licence until you have 1500 hours. As an extra little kick in the guts if you have not flown ATPL within 36 months of completing the exams the CAA says you have to do them all again! So you have to decide what are the chances of you getting 1500 hours and a twin IR job within three years - none at the moment. Do the 9 exams for the cpl and at least you are on the ladder. At some point in the future when you need to you can go back and do the atpl at leisure and at least you will only have to do it once.

[chopski]

Thanks for the info guys. Probably more confused about what to do and who to speak to now although the ATPL's are probably the one to go for. I was just hoping for an easy way around getting the uk licence, even though i knew there wasn't really such a thing!

I also have my IR from Australia, does this count towards converting to the JAA IR or do you have to do it all again?

Thanks for all your help again guys certainly given me a little more to ponder over for my inevitable return to sunny BLIGHTY!

Cheers again!!!:)

[PIC]

Charlie S Charlie is right about the 3-7 year thing; I was assuming that you wouldn't have a twin and instrument rating. It sounds like you are right that ATPL is the way to go for you. Charlie is also right about 1000 hours being the experience requirement- that's what I get for posting information off the top of my head. The only way to decide is to get a copy of Lasors 2004 from the CAA which sets out in detail which hoops you need to jump through for each different licence.

Good luck.

[DBChopper]

I am just about to commence studying for the dreaded exams and my investigations so far reveal the favoured schools seem to be Oxford, and Bristol Ground School. My question is, therefore, to those of you who are currently studying or who have recently finished: quite simply, who would you recommend and why?

All opinions, on this thread or by PM, are very welcome.

Thanks in advance for your input. :ok:

DBChopper
:cool:

[helicopter-redeye]

Have a look at GTS at Bournmouth as well (www.gtserv.co.uk from memory). They are the third rotary ATPL training est. apart from Ox and Bris.

Smaller classes and a bit more personal (but thats just my opinion).

h-r

[Jarvy]

Recomend Bristol every time. All staff helpful and if they got me through exams then they can get anyone through!!!!

[Helibelly]

Did it all through Bristol for both the H and A exams, all done via the internet and from both sides of the planet. Passed all the exams first time (all right I did perf A twice!!).

[Governormalfunction]

I went to BS while they were at Lulsgate and they were brilliant, can't recommend them highly enough!

[Pofman]

DB Chopper

Exams for the JAA ATPL(H) are available as follows:

Fixed/RW common: Air law; HPL; Met; Radio Nav;
Comms-VFR & IFR.

RW specific: Inst; M & Balance; Performance;
Flt Plan & Monitoring; PoF(H); OPs Procedures.

021 Aircraft General is still based on the old CAA exams, as the syllabus is being reviewed under a NPA.

All the above have been in use for some time now but are only being taken by students at the one helicopter- only integrated school. Eventually the CAA will insist the all schools teach helicopter candidates helicopter specific subjects.
Sadly there does not seem, as yet, to be the demand to make it commercially viable to set / teach CPL(H) only.

[DBChopper]

Guys,

I'm very grateful for your replies and pms. It has been interesting to note your opinions. Armed with these, I'll speak to the schools at the Flyer show at Heathrow in November and come to a final choice.

Thanks again,

DBChopper
:ok:

[leee]

Hi,
Just been looking in the Bristol ground school forum .....
AHHHH........
:{ :{ :{
i need to convert my heli license but it looks like you need to understand flaps and other fixed wing stuff ( fingers crossed, garlic round my neck:ok: ) any one gone through the process recently care to share thier experience of it???

Cheers Lee...

[Paul McKeksdown]

Welcome to the world of confusion!!:\

I am also in the position of trying to convert my heli licence! The first question has to be from what to what? I am converting ATPL to ATPL and for that I require the fixed wing training hours i.e. CPL hours plus multi IR and, according to the CAA, a 'Bridgin Course' which covers the non rotary bits of the ATPL theory and then Performace and P of F Fixed wing.

Performance and P of F are relatively simple in comparision to the flying bumble bee!!! If you have any form of aerodynamics experience on big helos (S76, S61 etc) non of this should come as a problem. If not PM me and I can send you a PP presentation with some helo P of F (reads across almost). Contact the 'on-line' JALS database (30Euros for three months) they have the question bank in there and, although I thought 30 E's a bit steep at first, it is excellent.

The biggest problem lies with the bridging course. NON OF THE B*&%$Y GROUNDSCHOOLS OUT THERE WILL PROVIDE IT!!!!:* :*

The CAA say that they have written it and therefore it must be sat however without the CGI's signature you can't apply for it. Without the course you won't get the CGI's signature and the schools won't write the course's 'cause it costs too much for too few people :mad:

So, if anybody out there also would like/need/wants this facility to be available, and it makes sense to have both IMO, then call Bristol or CABAIR continuously until they cough up and set the course!!!

Rant over, relax, count to one hundred, go flying!!!
:cool: Remeber, the light at the end of the tunnel could be an oncoming train

[cranefly]

As to bridging courses, I hear that Bristol Ground School can do them for helo pilots - are you certain?

On another note: interestingly, the first JAA CPL(H) theory course has just been started by Dragon Helicopters in Sheffield. They could convert the license for anyone wanting to come to this country I think. The details in front of me state that there will be nine exams clearing you for VFR ops only. this means that you could still be an instructor and line pilot to begin your career and if you wanted to go to the rigs or do twin IFR charter later on, you could bolt on the further 7 exams (IFR related) to get the frozen ATPL (H).

All sounds exciting since it brings the cost of becoming a professional right down. Hope this helps some of you who are scratching your heads due to the astronomical costs of licenses these days!;)

[helicopter-redeye]

I think you can do this with GTS as well. Details http://www.gtserv.co.uk/cpl(H)_course.htm

[leee]

Well thank you for your replies,
just looked at the dragon website and looks like they use bristol GS, didnt see any details for just doing the cpl(h) portion but that sounds good to me at the moment ( assuming that there are jobs for cpl only??)
What is the job scene like at the moment?? rigs busy and the easier way to get your foot in the door???much work for VFR only??

Cheers Lee...

[Paul McKeksdown]

Leee,

Which way round are you going?? From your origional post it would seem that you are going from rotary to fixed wing. Is this correct?

The reason I ask is because the various schools do offer the conversion from A to H, it is the other way round that is difficult.

At the end of the day contact the CAA who will assess your log book and advise you of whichever exams you need to sit. For example if you have a PPL(H) then you will need to sit the performance and P of F for fixed wing in order to gain a PPL(A). This reads across for the CPL as well but for ATPL you will be required to dig a bit deeper and cover the 'parts' of the fixed wing syllabus not covered by helo flying. I.e. Long range nav, NATS, air con, Perf A, oxygen systems etc....

Hope that helps
:p

Remember! The light at the end of the tunnel could be an oncoming train!

[cranefly]

Leee the job scene is looking fairly bouyant at the mo since the horrendous price of licenses and hrs required have sadly left a lot of people unable to justify the costs of going professional. However, on the positive side, there seems to be a general deficit of instructors nationally (ie VFR flying only)! Also, you may be aware that the North Sea has some large impending contracts so worth digging there a bit. (you would have to do the ATPLs if you wanted to go up there)

As to Dragon Helicopters, they haven't put the CPL(H) details on their website yet, but info is available on +44 (0)870 8110203

Good luck! :)

[leee]

PAUL:I am going to Heli to Heli, sorry i didnt make that completely clear in the begining ( i just reread the post.) And now you understand my fear of flaps etc..

So to make it clear....
I have Faa CPL(H),CFI(H),IFR(H) and Canadian CPL(H),Night (sat ATPL exams)
1500+ hrs and now i am coming home, so i need to convert to a JAA, hence wondering about CPL(H) or ATPL(H) job scene etc..

CRANEFLY: Cheers for that, i emailed Dragon after reading your post and they sent me an attachment, I thought it would be cheaper to do the CPL but it was $1900 ( no pound sign) same as the distance ATPL with Bristol.

Cheers Lee...

[Paul McKeksdown]

Okay, that clears things up a bit :D

What you are looking at then is a direct read across from FAA to JAA, something that didn't happen for decades in the CAA but I am now led to believe, from a spy in the Belgrano building, that a read across will soon be available early next year.

The details are still being worked but the general intention for experienced pilots will be a direct comparision issue.

However, that will get you CPL, if you have the theoretical credits for ATPL then I don't know if they will be carried across. Otherwise you will need to do the ATPL exams which are, currently, fixed wing orientated but the CAA are introducing the rotary exams as we type!

At the end of the day you need to speak to the licensing section at the CAA and ask them for the details.

Hope that helps.

[leee]

If i could get a straight CPL for CPL that would be great, i read about it a few years ago but didnt think it would ever really happen!! then i would just need the extra ATPL exams, could live with that even if they are fixed wing biased!! hey i might even be able to earn some money whilst i study!!!

sounds to good to be true, which means it must be.
14 exams here i come....

Well i arive back next week, got my medical booked so i guess i will have a chat whilst i am there ( or is expecting the medical and licsensing depts to be near each other to much to ask??)

Cheers Lee...

[Hedski]

Bristol GS has the best reputation. Those in the know both fixed-wing and heli have gone.
Risky attending a newish ground school, like being a guinea pig really. Not the wisest. Your choice though.
Find out the experience of the instructors at Dragon, if they have plenty of CPL experience go for it.
If not I'd be wary. Bristol guys, ie Alex Whittingham have years of experience, do it day in day out. They know it like the back of their hand. Makes sense, lots of 'bang for yer buck!'
You might as well get all the exams done, most of the hard ones have to be done for the CPL anyway.
Hope this puts you in the picture.:8

[popa'schopper]

Cheers for all your help so far guys it is really great in narrowing down which path to take!

But i have decided to do my ATPL(H) ground school here in the UK before i go out to the US.

IM looking at Bristol, Cabair, Oxford. Has anybody been on these courses and got any reccomendations or even reccomendations for other schools?

Once again, Thankyou in advance!

Popa

[NicePuppies]

went to oxford last yr and am in states now. thought it was good. heli theory instruction was pants however and didnt prepare us for the exam. passed it through sheer hard work and and some extra tuition.
us heli people had to do one less exam than the fixed wing students (performance) and replaced fixed wing p of f with heli p of f.
overall thought it was a good/ proffesional set up. i got what i paid for, all first time passes and and an 86% average...
good luck

[thecontroller]

I think you have to dress like a security guard at Oxford.

[Whirlygig]

If you do a search on the Wannabee's Professional Training forum, you'll get all the gen you want.

Nobody has a bad word to say about Bristol there.

Although that would be mostly from a fixed wing point of view, the standard and professionalism of the school with apply to both A and H so you should garner a lot from there!

Cheers

Whirlygig

[DFTCH]

I did the ATPL(H) at Bristol last year and passed all first time.

I think they now do a dedicated H syllabus but at the time all H bods were in with the fixed wing crowd.

They split the exams into 2 modules and do PofF(H) in mod 2.

As you don't do performance there is plenty of time to revise PofF and on the middle Sunday you spend a day in the classroom with Mike Burton.
He's wrote a few books(!) and knows the subject inside out.

You'll find lots of info about Bristol on other forums but I certainly recommend them.

[lionco]

Have you had a look at Dragon Helicopters. They run a full ATPL(H) ground school. The CGI is an old hand at ground school and a very good instructor.
Here's a link to their site. http://www.dragonhelicopters.co.uk/cplhleaf.pdf
Good luck
Lionco

PS. I have nothing what so ever to do with Dragon Helicopters.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Can certainly reiterate the usual about BGS - you will not fail with their course. As previously stated about Mike Burton - being locked in a room with an old man wouldn't usually bring cause for excitement, but you'll have a great learning day with Mike, God bless him ! Ask him how he learned to fly in the RAF when he was PAX in a fast jet and the pilot passed out ! Got one of his books here by Poolys, I think.

[popa'schopper]

Cheers guys i will look into them. How have you guys found distance learning? Do you wish you had done it residentially knowing what you know now?

Popa.:confused:

[boomerangben]

I did the Cabair correspondence course a few years ago and it was ok. Passed first time with a high average. I had some experience of the Bristol FS JAR version and that was good also. Distance learning requires much self discipline, but if you have the time and one or two suplementary books (eg Wagentdonk and Shaun Coles book) it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[Bravo73]

Nice Puppies,

I'm afraid that I've got to take exception when you say that 'heli theory instruction was pants' at Oxford. Unless things have changed, the theory instruction is normally given by Andy G. And as anybody who knows him will confirm, Andy has probably forgotten more about helicopters and the theory behind them than many of us will probably ever know.

And as for 'passed it through sheer hard work and and some extra tuition.'... Erm, were you expecting to be spoon-fed the information? Of course it's going to require a level of self study on your part. Wagtendonk has got most of the answers.

Good luck anyway in the States. I notice from your profile that you've got an ATPL(H) on the R22. Impressive!


Anyway, apologies for the thread creep and back to the original topic. Pilot Ground Training (http://www.pilotgroundtraining.com) have recently started up at Kemble and have been getting good reports over on the Wannabes forum. They are run by a number of ex-Oxford instructors. Try giving them a call. (And no, I've got no connection to them).


Hope this helps.


B73

[NicePuppies]

ouch!
wasnt getting personal or mentioning names, just telling it how it is.
As its clearly important to you old buddy am current on R22,R44,S300....will keep you posted on my progress....one day i could be as great as you?
In my humble opinion and for all its worth i agree about Kemble, sounds like a new option worth a look.

:{

[Ewe Turn]

Nice Puppies

ATPL(H) and NO turbine ratings???:confused:

et

[Minty Fresh]

popa'schopper

The new ground school course at Dragon is purely for CPL (H).

Only nine exams and more related to Heli's.

As with lionco - not related to Dragon but have spoken with them as i'm in a similar boat to you - but worth knowing for us Rotorheads

[Bravo73]

Sorry for putting your nose out of joint, NicePuppies, but it's just that I try not to claim something that I'm not. My manner can seem a little brusque at times in printed word. It's not meant to be.

FYI, (in JAAland at least), an ATPL(H) involves lots of hours, an IR and multi-crew time (tricky on an R22, or any single piston for that matter). A complete answer of what is needed can be found in LASORS. I suspect that you're a lowly CPL like the rest of us (with ATPL theory credits)! :ok:


Fly safe,

B73

[NicePuppies]

B73

I see! But i thought the querry WAS about ATPL groundschool?...which ive done.
Wasnt trying to pretend am anything im not, and as far as i can see i havent?
LASORS ...i thought that was what they shave with in japan? thanks for that must get a LASORS....do they sell them in hardback? RSVP

;)

ps nose is small but perfectly formed.....just checked :ok:

[Bravo73]

This is really detracting from the topic but here goes, NicePuppies:

Wasnt trying to pretend am anything im not, and as far as i can see i havent? Well, your profile (as no doubt everybody has had a look now) states under 'Licence Type': ATPL(H). It doesn't really matter on the grand scheme of things, but do you hold an ATPL(H)? Please don't confuse it with either a CPL(H) or a PPL(H). These things are important to pendants like me.

And I'm sure the CAA can provide you with a hardback version of LASORS, if you're willing to pay for it. It's always just easier to download the pdf version from caa.co.uk. I should, of course, provide you with a link to help you but frankly I can't be bothered to do the search for you. I'm sure that you can manage by yourself.


Back to the original topic (once again). If I was to rank the various schools according to personal experience and anecdotal evidence (ie what I've heard on the grapevine) then in my opinion, I would rank them as follows:

Residential:
1. Oxford (Old and established, might be faltering at the last fence).
2. PGT @ Kemble (Young filly, ridden by ex-Oxford jockeys).
3. Cabair (Rank outsider)

Distance Learning
1. BGS (Out in front by a length. Favourite with the crowds).
2. Oxford (see above).
3= Cabair & PGT. (Not even sure if they are in this race).


This is all, of course, IMHO.


B73

[popa'schopper]

Hi Guys,

The PGT at kemble also looks good! How do they stand with regards to Helicopter theory as it all looks plank based?

Anybody done the course?

Popa.

[Bravo73]

re PGT.

I think that they are too 'young' to have completed a full course.
Try giving them a call. The number's on their website.


Regards,

B73

[Whirlygig]

Popa,

Can I suggest that you give them all call? Have a chat; they'll be able to explain how their courses operate and to what extent the exams are helicopter-specific.

I spoke to Alex Whittingham of Bristol a while and found him very helpful and informative. Atlantic Flight Training were similarly informative when I chatted to them at the London Airshow.

My dilemma is whether to do ATPL or CPL exams. But once I have made that decision, I'll be 'phoning or visiting each of the schools.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[DBChopper]

Whirlygig's got the answer - visit them, talk to them and make your mind up on that basis.

I took a trip up to Dragon Helicopters, Sheffield, to chat to them about their new CPL(H) course. It seemed to fit the bill for me as I can never envisage flying multi-crew, IFR etc. I was impressed with their attitude, setup and the books which are written by Bristol Ground School, so I have taken the plunge. They had also taken the trouble to have a set of notes ready for my perusal and were nice people - customer care goes a long way in my books.

Not sure if I'll be quite so pleased when I get the results of my first progress test though...

:rolleyes:

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

and don't forget when making a choice, that you get 3 years from your last exam pass to obtain an IR or your exams will all expire, and 7 years from your last exam pass to get your ATPL unfrozen - or yep, you've guessed it, you'll have to do them again ! ( well the extra ATPL portion ones in the latter case but ALMOST ALL OF THEM again for the IR ) BIG decision !! If you have a plank ticket it may well be worth getting a single engine IR to stop the exams expiring if you can't take the heli plunge for what ever reason - it's the cheapest way to buy yourself some time )

[BigMike]

Question for the UK crowd. Is there a self-study kit available in the UK for the JAR CPL (H) exams? Books, practice exams, that sort of thing. Or does anyone have a recomended list?
Should be working soon in Europe on a 1 year local validation but need to sit the exams in the future. Any advice?

Cheers


BigMike

[Sabre Zero 1]

Try either Dragon Helicopters, Bristol Ground School, Atlantic Flight training (?) or Cabair. As far as I know they all do correspondence courses.

It'll cost you about £2000 though!:{

[SASless]

2000 UKP.....!!!!!!!

It is time for you guys to take a page out of the American Taxpayers Handbook (1776 Edition). Revolt.....throw the bums out of office! The cost of aviation regulation is getting completely out of hand.

[puntosaurus]

You think that's bad. It's then £55 per exam (*9 for CPL *13 for ATPL), £674 for the CAA examiner for the day, £450 for a class 1 medical, and £174 on top of that for CPL license issue. That's before you've paid for any flying.

I think Dragon (http://www.dragonhelicopters.co.uk/cplgroundschool.html) are the only ones doing the CPL(H) theory (9 exams) distance learning in the UK, and they are based on the Bristol (http://www.bristol.gs/) notes. Everyone else does ATPL (13 exams with a lot of unnecessary FW stuff).

CAA = Cash Again & Again

[SASless]

Hey Punt....don't forget that lovely renewal fee....what is it for an ATPL....600 UKP now?

Brits talk about gun violence in the USA....the only thing missing at the CAA is the gun.....it still amounts to armed robbery! At the very least it should be called extortion. Shows what government monopoly will do for you.

[Sabre Zero 1]

There must be some good reason for it costing so much more in the UK! Mustn't there? Surely there must!?:confused:

[BigMike]

Thanks for the replies so far. The total price as quoted above, adds up to 3793 GBP. I now understand everyone heading to Oz or the US to learn. Where did the CAA come up with these prices from? Do licences cost more to print in the UK?

When I studied for the CPL theory in Oz I dragged out my old fixed-wing books and on the instructors advice bought the required helicopter manuals etc. Studied at home, then went off and sat the exam. Are you not allowed to do this in the UK? Do you have to do a distance course with a flight school?

Cheers BigMike

[paco]

PM me for details of an alternative that is not "approved" but is nevertheless on the CAA list of resources and is way cheaper

phil

[Cullear1]

hi big mike I am on the dragon route at the moment, i finding it tough going and impossible to do in the recomended hours, notes are good though drop me a messge if i can be of any help to you at all

[helicopter-redeye]

Everyone else does ATPL (13 exams with a lot of unnecessary FW stuff).


There is GTS at Bournmouth as well, which I my math is correct, is the lowest cost CPL (H) course in the UK but has the most face time with instructors (all ex RAF).

www.gtserv.co.uk from memory

h-r

[Whirlygig]

Atlantic Flight Training also do the CPL(H) course and I think were the first to offer it.

For the UK JAA CPL or ATPL, the ground study has to be with an approved school but there are exceptions. I'd recommend a chat with any (or all) of the schools listed here to find out about this.

However, if it's just the study material you want, suppliers like Transair sell the manuals.

Cheers

Whirlygig

PS - CAA class 1 medical now costs £337.00; I know 'cos I just got mine!!

[helicopter-redeye]

I just got mine too. hey Whirls, was that you in the changing room ... ??

;) :O

[Whirlygig]

In a ridiculously oversized white, fluffy dressing gown that would have swamped a loose-head prop? Yup, coulda bin!!

Cheers

Whirls

[birdaman]

I am just beginning my cpl(h) hour building and was wondering if someone might have an idea of how long the groundschool might take me to complete? I hope to study about ten hours a week, Jar in the uk. Also how much longer to do atpl(h).

I know it seems a silly question but trying to decide whether full time study might be better. Thanx in advance hope you can help.:ugh:

[puntosaurus]

You should ask the schools what they think, but you can get a rough idea from the hours required.

The 13 ATPL(H) exams are supposed to be 650 hrs work, the 9 CPL(H) are supposed to be 500. Taking the distance learning approach, the pre-exam brush ups are going to absorb around 150 and 100 of those respectively, which leaves 500 and 400 hours to you. At 10hrs per week that gives you about a year for the ATPL and nine months for the CPL. The classroom people seem to quote five months for ATPL.

I've no personal experience of the CPL or the classroom approach but the year or so seems consistent with the guys I came across who had done ATPL(H) distance learning on a part time basis. Those who could manage to do it full time cut this down to about five or six months, ie. about the same as the classroom.

Allegedly the record is six weeks, and some nutter at my school decided to do all 14 (ATPL(A)) in one sitting (and passed !) just to show off.

The distance learning/classroom thing is really up to what you prefer, how you work best, how easy it is to take time out, and how much money you have.

PS. This assumes no resits of course.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

I did the ATPL(H) exams under the tempoary JAA system. It took me around 13 months with a three month break bewteen the two modules. I was working every day - I mean EVERY DAY - at least 4 or 5 hours study. I still had to work to keep the roof over my head. It aint easy. All I can say is make sure you think very, very, very carefully about where you ' expect ' to be in 2 years time. Ask the guys on here if you have to. Don't be afraid of them. There's advice here you will not find elsewhere !:O Good luck !

TFS

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi Guys

I have held a UK CPL(H) for about 8 years now but my ATPL(H) theory has ran out, I never gained an IR with in 3 years after passing the theory so I need to repeat the theory and the ATPL(H) exams before I can obtain my IR and then ATPL(H)

Which school would you recommend in the UK for distance learning I'm looking more a Bristol, Tell me what you think.

What is there question bank like in comparison the CAA question bank?

Thanks in advance.

[Whirlygig]

You might want to post this in the Professional Training forum especially as there is little difference between ATPL(H) and ATPL(A).

However, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone with a bad word to say against Bristol.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Whirlygig]

Whoa, TFS, ever heard of libel laws???

To redress the balance, I found him to be very courteous and helpful even when I didn't avail myself of their course!

Cheers

Whirls

PS - If I wanted to do the ATPL exams, I would have gone to Bristol but, given I reckon the chance of me getting an IR in three years is the square root of diddly-squat, I've opted for the CPL(H) which BGS don't do.

[Simon853]

square root of diddly-squat


Wouldn't that resolve to an infinitely high number? ;)

Si

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi KMS

I need to decide whether I just want my IR or I want my ATPL in the future. If I decide on the ATPL then its easier to do the ATPL exams straight off or Ill have to do them in the future.

[Whirlygig]

Si darling,

Go and do your maths homework like I told you!

SQRT 4 = 2
SQRT 1 = 1
SQRT 0.5 = 0.7
SQRT 0.1 = 0.3
SQRT 0.01 = 0.1
SQRT 0.001 = 0.03

Diddly-squat is a small but finite and positive number!

See me after class!

Cheers

Whirls






To all the pedants out there (and I know who you are!), I have done these to one significant place 'cos I CBFA to type in the rest of the numbers. I'm an accountant, not a scientist any more!

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

yeah but Whirls, you're a bird aint yer ?

( Not posted in a prune fan 1 kinda way ! )

[Whirlygig]

Yes, TFS, I am all woman. Your point is?

No, let me guess. Is it because I can do maths!

I can also read maps and, if I try very hard, I can leave the loo seat up!

Cheers

Whirls

[212man]

Well, whirls, to be a pedant....
Not sure you need the apostrophe with 'cos, that would imply becos was a word!

Intrigued by your profile "fast men". Reminds me of the old boast; "it's not big but it's b***dy fast!"

[Martin1234]

I need to decide whether I just want my IR or I want my ATPL in the future. If I decide on the ATPL then its easier to do the ATPL exams straight off or Ill have to do them in the future.

The only theory you need for the issue of the ATPL is CPL + IR, no need for ATPL theory when it comes to helicopters. It's just a smart way of getting CPL + IR theory at the same time. However, you never know if it will change in the future.

[Whirlygig]

Not sure you need the apostrophe with 'cos,
I am.

And don't argue.

As for my profile.... there's a long story about that and I ain't telling!

Cheers

Whirls


PS - I have noticed that poor PPRUNE FAN #1's name has now become synonymous with "rude", "insulting" etc - perhaps we ought to have a new smilie to indicate "Not in a PPrune Fan sort-of-a-way!"

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

where did you find that hash sign ? This new Iboooook aint got one?? That means I can't reply to PF1's rude and insulting commentry on your behalf Queen Whirly, alass !

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi Martin

This is pasted direct from the email sent to me by the CAA, For ATPL(H) you need ATPL theory;

if you wish to endorse an IR(H) on to your JAR-FCL or UK CAA
CPL(H), you are required to;

(1) attend a JAR-FCL Approved Theoretical Ground Examination training
organisation and complete the JAR-FCL IR(H) theory course.
(2) Sit and pass all of the JAR-FCL IR(H) professional flight crew
examinations.
(3) Complete a JAR-FCL approved IR(H) Modular Course.
(4) Pass a JAR-FCL IR(H) Skill Test with a CAA Staff Examiner.

If you wish to have issue of a JAR-FCL ATPL(H), you would be required to
pass all the of the JAR-FCL ATPL (H) professional flight crew examinations
and meet the additional requirements as per JAR-FCL 2.280.

[Martin1234]

Very odd. I just had a look at the Amendment 3 (newest version available on JAA.nl) and under JAR-FCL 2.285(a) it says;

"The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) satisfies the knowledge requirements for the issue of an ATPL(H)."

Maybe the CAA were thinking of the fixed-wing requirements when they wrote to you?

[helicopter-redeye]

If you have completed the exams for CPL(H) and the exams for IR(H) then it is the same exams as ATPL(H).

The difference is the first batch are done in two bits and the second in one.

The rest of the ATPL(H) is based on hours of a certain type (night/ multi pilot/ etc).

Therefore if you have a CPL(H) and more than 3 years from the completion of the ATPL(H) exams the next step is to do the IR exams again (like KMS is doing).

This will give the theory credits for IR and ATPL subject to completion of the flying part.

(in a nutshell)

h-r:)

[Lightning_Boy]

I'm probably miles off the mark here, but if you know your not going to get your IR within 3 years of completing your ATPL exams, why not just do the CPL exams and licence, and then do the IR exams when the time is right?

Again, I have very little knowledge of the JAA system, but would be interesting if this is an option.

Many thanks

LB

:ok:

[Whirlygig]

It certainly is an option and the option I have taken!

Sitting here studying Met as I type -oh no, I'm not studying, I'm typing! Never mind!

Cheers

Whirls

[hemac]

Whirls,

Where are you doing your CPL(H) course? I don't mean where I mean who with?
I am thinking of London Metropolitan University modular course but not sure if they do only CPL.
If I can get away with just the CPL(H) exams for the time being and do the IR later then that is the kiddie for me.

H.

[Whirlygig]

I am doing my CPL here in Sheringham and there's nobody else in the room with me!

There are only two places that do CPL(H) being Dragon Helicopters in Sheffield and Atlantic Flight Traning in Coventry. I am doing it through AFT.

Cheers

Whirls

[thecontroller]

Doing the CPL-only route is an option, although the support/feedback you get from Bristol gs seems to be top notch, they have been doing it a long time.

hardly anyone has a bad word to say about bristol, then again.....does this sound familiar LB???

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi Martin & Heli Redeye

I really hope your both right, It will save me lot of hassle excuse me for being a bit sceptical though (No offence intended)

I read what it says in FCL 2.285 but take a look at JAR FCL 2.295 b also see LASORS J1.7 according to this if you resit and only do the IR theory as far as I can see it only credits you for IR it doesnt mention the ATPL credit. Thanks.