X licence for JAR 66

[spannersatcx]

I'm thinking of doing the licence by post correspondance course for modules 20 and 21 so as to get my JAR 66 licence.
2 questions
1 does anybody have experience of doing it this way, if so is it any good?
2 Does anybody have a data bank of multi choice and/or written type questions?

[silverfish]

I have a couple of friends that have taken their X licence, by licence by post self study. Both have passed but said that it required a lot of self motivation. Maybe a course at one of the colleges is easier on the motivation, but harder on the wallet?
I am trying to do all mine by self study for the JAR 66 conversion, but there is little or no information avaliable on this and the caa are a little confused.
Good luck anyway, I don't think there is an easy way!

[Blacksheep]

A correspondance course eh? This question certainly provides a good illustration of the reduction in standards :rolleyes: Time was that to certify electrical systems called for a type rated "X" Electrical licence. This required three years practical experience backed by certified worksheets, six months on type with a complete schedule of inspection work covering every piece of electrical equipment in the aircraft, a 'pass' result on an approved aircraft type course, a 180 question multi choice paper and a six question essay paper. This gained you admission to a six hour oral grilling to get the licence. Similar rules applied to "A" "C" "X" Instruments and "R" Radio.

Now, that may have been overkill, but it certainly highlights the fall in standards represented by JAR 66 http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif: http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif:

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Through difficulties to the cinema

[spannersatcx]

Blacksheep, I have 5 years practical experience does that count. Point taken though.

[jobsworth]

When doing the license by post you have to have a minimum of three years live a/c exp. But under the new rules i.e. JAR66 this will increase to five years.

You do have to remember that some of the guys doing the licence by post are ex armed forces with upto 22 years exp.

This means we can tell the diffence between a ring spanner and a hammer

[Raffles]

Jobsworth having served for 12 years in the RAF myself I must beg to differ. I have met people who have asked me which tools to buy when coming out metric or imperial, which gives me the impression of not being so bright. Another thing is going on about
"when I was in the RAF", the fact that someone has done 22 years does not always mean they are any good. You will find times when you leave that you will deny your ex RAF so as to not be mistaken for being a Donkey. Two positives about leaving the RAF
1. Overtime
2. No secondary duty crap
As far as the best route for a licence course is concerned I would suggest going to Kidlington, I did both my A & C with them and found them very good (passed both first time).
Good luck with the job hunting

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"Tally Ho"

[T-Brake]

Raffles

True,

But in GA your points 1 & 2 are sometimes NA if you get my drift? If not I'll just FO!

Eh?

[spannersatcx]

Jobsworth, as you will no doubt learn there is a vast difference between the RAF and the real world. I know because I've done it. At the time I did my licences, 1989, there were a lot of 22 year boys who thought they knew it all and couldn't understand why they were failing their licence exams. Because they thought they knew it all, they didn't put in the hard work studying and finding out what is what in civil aviation. I'm not putting you in this category. I studied all the books I could find for 12 months or so and then did a legislation course at Kidlington, at my own expense and time. What most seemed to ignore were the basics particularly module 2. It's not easy, even though it is supposedly getting easier, so don't think its a breeze otherwise you are in for a bit of a shock.
Good luck anyway.

[greaseytech]

Did my 'A' licence as self study, including LBP and passed too. I had motivation, but also a family too! But let's face it, if it was that easy then everyone involved in aviation maintenance would have at lest one ticket. Raffles, who did you get a job with when you left HM Flying club? I have heard of some horendous tails of people leaving the mob and finding it difficult to settle. Who knows, when this new regime in the military takes hold, people may find it easier to settle into a proper job.

But back to the point in hand, I have heard from colleagues who have taken modules 20 & 21 that it is not easy. I too have to do it this year, but seeing what OATS at Kidlington are charging, I expect it will be good old self study again. But I have a secret weapon; my lad is doing GCSE Electronic Porducts this year. I am sure he will be able to help me over the tricky bits!

[Raffles]

Spanners, this reflects exactly what I found.
Indeed when at Kidlington (again like you at own expense) I found the guy's on resetlement
just treating it like a p*!* up. They had no clue about reality, CV's, job applications etc. One 22 year Cpl asked if he should wear a suit to an interview (what planet).
Greasey, my first stop was Marshalls, having worked the TriStar in the RAF and completed the Airframe & Engine course they ripped my hands off. The job was not the best but I learned more about the a/c in 18 months hangar work than 6 years line work. Tore myself away to join an airline at LHR (red tails, need I say more). They supported me with time off to go to Kidlington. You don't get anything on a plate, but try telling that to a 22 year Chief who knows it all.

By the way at least greasey can spell technician (jobsworth take note)
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"Tally Ho"

[This message has been edited by Raffles (edited 27 February 2000).]

[Radio Man]

I'm also an ex "crabfat". On of my first experiences on leaving the RAF was an ex Chief Tech who told me in no uncertain terms, "I was a Chief Tech, you were a Corporal so you'd better do as I tell you as I out rank you."

My reply was that as I'd joined the company before him, he could go **** himself.

I'm also trying to convert BCAR licences to JAR 66 and the CAA are certainly vague as to what I need to do.

[Blacksheep]

Jobsworth et al,

As you may note, I was being deliberately provocative and it stirred up quite a good response.

(BTW, my signature reveals my origins as an ex "Crabfat" - I did 14 years man and boy. When I left the VC10s were still shiny new things and some airlines were actually flying them as well!)

The point I'd like to make is that the qualifications for certification privileges are being continually dumbed down. The reason given is that responsibility for airworthiness should lie with the company rather than with individuals. The company system ensures airworthiness because the system is geared to provide a broader overview than any individual can handle.

This ignores the point that it may be better not to vest control of airworthiness directly in the hands of those who have a financial interest in keeping costs at a minimum. When times are hard, Engineering Departments will always find it hard to resist the pressure from Finance to cut costs to the bone. Finance departments are not equipped or trained to understand airworthines issues. An independant Licenced Engineer has it in his power to refuse to sign a certificate unless he is certain that compliance standards are met. A servant of the company has this right curtailed, he only acts on behalf of the company. Since the certifying engineer or technician only certifies that the company's system has been satisfied, the level of knowledge tested externally is reduced. In fact, since most JAR 175 training schemes are part of company's own in-house systems, companies will soon be responsible for examination standards too!

The end result is a gradual reduction in overall control of standards. Don't underestimate the downward pressure on engineering salaries either!

As some have observed, the people currently applying for licences have experience and qualification levels well above those called for in JAR66. True, but how about the future? Will the military forever turn out 22 year experienced men? Will there always be a supply of experienced men sufficient to meet demand? Bear in mind that JAR66 allows a person to walk into a hangar, off the street as it were, and without formal training he can be certifying airworthiness within 5 years on the strength of passing a few short multi-answer question papers. Think about it.

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Through difficulties to the cinema

[jobsworth]

I would like to thank all for their opinions and especially blacksheep who has highlighted a point i agree with, as does my SENGO who was reading over my shoulder.
I personally dont think that the civvy industry will be able to rely on the armed forces forever, as we are now down to a low man power level and people are staying in longer only to never work on aircraft again.
Maybe the civvy industry should look to train their own more and make it easier to get into at a young age. Who knows had there been the work oppertunitys i might never have joined the RAF.
Please dont hassle me over spelling as i failed my english at school.

[Raffles]

Jobsworth, Sory four mencheing yoor spelng, it doosnt meen evrythink yoo nkow.

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"Tally Ho"

[Bus429]

Spanners,

Email me, I need to update you.
Re JAR 66 - the JAA/CAA scrapped the oral because there was no way the consistency of examination could be verified across the JAA countries. The JAA data bank of questions currently numbers 5000 but has not as yet been released. When it reaches 15000 it will be made public. To quote a JAA rep "....if an engineer can remember 15000 questions he/she deserve the licence".

Personally, I do not think JAR 66 has turned out to be as bad as expected. I can hear the howls of indignation from here!!!

[CONES R US]

Getting back to the original question, I have a load of multi choice and essay questions that anyone is welcome to have copies of. I don't want to put my email address here so if anyone's interested, post a reply here or start a new message and I'll do my best to get them to you. :-)

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NO FAULT FOUND

[airsafetyreport]

Cones R Us,

I would like to take up your kind offer if I may.
My e-mail address is [email protected].
Any problems then let me know.
:) :)

[This message has been edited by airsafetyreport (edited 08 March 2000).]

[aeroguru]

Me too please at [email protected]

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Any chance you could let me have copies of the multi choice. will pay postage etc.
thanks

[spannersatcx]

Cones, brilliant, e-mail is [email protected]

[jobsworth]

Cones,
It would help me no end if you could get the papers to me. Please email me with your email address so I can send you a stamped addressed envelope.
My email is [email protected]

[H721]

Thanks in advance.

my email : [email protected]


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Not much of an engineer

[greaseytech]

Me too please Cones. You can e-mail me from this link. Ta very much. By the way, any rumours out there as to who is putting in bids for Britannia's maintenance?

[growler]

me too please cones, e mail is on my profile

[Captain Rat]

I would love a copy of the questions if possible. I have just started down the road of LBP/self study. All help appreciated!!
e-mail to

[email protected]

[agazou]

Manchester based and I have questions and answer for electics, inst and autopilot combined. First come gets them. E mail me at [email protected].

[airsafetyreport]

Agazou,

Have e-mailed you to take you up on your offer through the above mentioned e-mail address.
If you don't receive it please contact me though the e-mail address listed here.
[email protected]
Thanks.
:)

[This message has been edited by airsafetyreport (edited 15 March 2000).]

[This message has been edited by airsafetyreport (edited 15 March 2000).]

[Desert Dweller]

Cones... please drop a copy in for me aswell.. thank-you
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
[email protected]


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Thank-you, from a student-of-life ...

[CONES R US]

Sorry to all concerned about the delay in getting questions sorted. I'm having technical problems at home and work, ie too much work to get things done, and when I do get the time, my scanner goes tech. In the meantime if anyone wants questions posted out to them, e-mail me at: [email protected]
It may be a while before I can publish them to the web as I don't know how long it will take to get my scanner back.
Sorry again guys.

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NO FAULT FOUND

[bluewh]

Hi Ya, yep, can you email the notes.

Thanks Mate

[email protected]

[jetfueldrinker]

Coones R Us,

Did you ever get those questions sorted? If so, could you e-mail them to me? Thanks.

[Flying Banana]

A couple of useful links:

There is a fair bit of info on JAR66 on the 'Campaign Aginst Aviation's' website: http://www.caa.co.uk/

And also worth a look:
http://www.jar66.com/listes-cours.html http://www.jar66.org/ http://www.airmech.co.uk/index.htm http://www.lae.mcmail.com/

[Big Bad Wolf]

Well Black Sheep, you're obviously full of sheep dip. After your comments, notice that all the replies are about getting the JAA questions. This is the real world, nobody wants to hear you go on about VC10's and how you met Wilbur Wright and how Wilbur asked you for advice on how to build an aircraft.

I am over 50 years of age and in middle management in a major airline and I never heard of a 6 hour oral in the UK except for people who just about scraped through the exam. My exams took 1 1/2 hours each and that was it!! They were typical times.

You should try move with the times, you've obviously got your head so far up your rams bottom you can't appreciate that the system is turning out some excellent young engineers. They don't all need to be made to stand to attention and get (or give) 6 hour orals to become good engineers, "just like they did in the old days".

Nothing wrong with JAA standards, just problems with how some people interpret them, and by the way.....what is JAR175??

How come aircraft maintenance related accidents are not increasing with the illeged reduction in safety standards. Have you noticed more accidents since they abolished the 6 hour oral? No, safety is on the increase, certainly in the UK. It's just whining old farts who like to go on and on about the old days and how things were so much better that makes people think standards are reducing.

Think positive, aviation is becoming a better place to be. JAA is here to stay and all you young engineers get out there and pass those exams and follow the industry safety standards. So when they tell you on your human factors course about the guy who says "but thats the way we always did it" now you know who that guy they're talking about is!!!!! BAAAAH

[as,I,see,it]

I have recently been to a CAA presentation on Safety Management and Maintenance Error Management Systems. Their research has shown an upward trend in maintenance error related accidents. If the trend continues there will be 1 significant hull loss every 8 days by the year 2012. This is also supported by major manufacturers and the FAA. This is not to say that Engineers are worse than they used to be, possibly in a number of instances are/will be better. But the whole system of A/C maintenance and the massive growth in air transport presents us with more opportunities to get it wrong ie. more aircraft = more opportunities for failure. The CAA promote the sharing of maintenance error details between companies and airlines, and a NPA145.60 which will be incorporated into JAR145 requires a maintenance organisation to keep a database of reportable incidents (MOR's). Errors not neccessarily the making of the inexperienced but of the numbers and the system!

[aeroguru]

Big Bad Wolf?Do you ever get out of the office?Open your eyes and ears to the people who know.
Also can anyone tell me why a U.K./CAA licence holder is to pay such a large amount for a JAR licence when most other member states are rubber stamping their changeover ?
Some of those states will issue this euro licence on the basis of a FAA qualification!!

[SchmiteGoBust]

Cones me old mate,
Could you please include me in the list of people to send questions to.. my e-mail is [email protected]
Thankyou very very much in advance!!!

[SchmiteGoBust]

Well BIGBADWOLF, You appear to have eaten too many little red riding hoods. You should get out of the office every now and then and take a look round. I have noticed a definite decrease in standards and more worrying still there are accidents related to maintenance that have occured recently involving fatalities. Ask the CAA..There is a definite errosion of standards going on probably due to many causes. The main one as far as I can see is lack of engineers and commercial pressures being applied to them. As far as the standards for the new JAR66 licences go I think it is too early to tell.I haven't converted mine yet so am unable to comment.

[Blacksheep]

Big Bad Wolf,

I looked back and sure enough I did say JAR175. It is JAR 147 of course, how silly of me. Who the hell is (or was) Wilbur Wright? I must have been demobbed before he joined.

As you say, there are indeed a wonderfully keen, energetic and dedicated bunch of young men and women arriving in the industry every year. There always has been and I always enjoy being around them, it keeps you on your toes. In case you never noticed there are many fewer of them than there used to be. I may be a boring old fart but I do remember a time when LAEs got paid more than the average engineering technician's wage for for their efforts. They no longer do. Our working conditions have never changed but everyone else's have. Mostly for the better. (For those that work round the clock in foul weather and dirty conditions, think about how the oil industry compensates their workers.) This makes our industry less attractive to many of the brightest school-leavers and graduates. To compensate for the shortage in supply, JAR66 represents yet another reduction in the standards that will in future be applied to certification staff. I can't help noting that and its not just because I'm a boring old fart. Its a fact that the experience requirements are lower than previously. Yet the CAA have the temerity to charge ever more money for their ever less useful licences.
The industry is letting those bright keen young school leavers down and I consider that people who share your attitude are responsible. I don't need to worry, I'll retire soon and spend my days in the corner of the Rose and Crown, dribbling down my moleskin waistcoat and reciting war stories.

But its a sorry state that we are passing on to the next generation of aviation professionals.

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Through difficulties to the cinema

[HEMAVPAN]

Dear CONES R US

In reply to your messages dated 8th March 2000---i would like to have the multi choice & essay questions if you still have them & if you r still online here!! I would like to have all of them --all the printing & postage paid by me--please let me know if you can help me with this!! My e-mail is [email protected]

Your message:

Getting back to the original question, I have a load of multi choice and essay questions that anyone is welcome to have copies of. I don't want to put my email address here so if anyone's interested, post a reply here or start a new message and I'll do my best to get them to you. :-)

[Blacksheep]

With the resurrection of this thread I just noticed what I wrote six years ago. I still stand by every word.

There are still a few bright, keen young engineers coming into the industry only to be let down by the ever downwards spiralling effects of cost and corner cutting. Then many of them leave. Even Flight International has woken up and reported on the lack of maintenance engineers.

On the bright side, the resulting shortage of qualified people is starting to exert an upward pressure on wages and conditions. With any luck aircraft maintenance engineers will get back to the privileged position they deserve on the engineering industry salary scales and we'll attract more well qualified and motivated youngsters to replace us old farts on the firing line.

I'm off for a dribble down me waistcoat and another glass of Glenmorangie...

[HEMAVPAN]

Well not only the pay sacle standards are very low---there are instances of firing off on petty issues. The cost of studies is so high that i have to resort to internet for help!!