TCX Sponsorship

[Kempus]

hey,

thought it would be up already but TCX are sponoring in conjunstion with OAT! Nice!

[EK4457]

Just read all the details on OAT's site and FI magazine.

The airline and Oxford Aviation Training (OAT), working together to meet TCA’s needs, have agreed to launch a brand new, jointly sponsored airline pilot training programme.

First class!

In addition to the security of ‘conditional employment’ successful TCA/OAT candidates will benefit financially by a significant reduction in the price of APP training as a result of the joint TCA/OAT sponsorship.

Cash Back!

For the new TCA/OAT sponsorship programme, the terms of the loan have been extended to enable all eligible candidates to qualify for a loan of up to £60,000, i.e. £10,000 more than for the standard programme.

Errr, hang on a minute.

Under the TCA/OAT programme, the APP course will cost £52,000, to which must be added mandatory CAA test and examination fees.... In addition, the costs of room only accommodation... and the 20-week flight training phase.... leading to a total package price of £60,000.

Right.....

you will need to provide approximately an additional £5,000 to cover any other expenses,

Hmm.

Now, here is my disclaimer: I think that it's excellent that these schemes are starting to pop up and show that the industry is on the up. This is very good news and makes me feel much more confident about my decision to study as a big bus driver.

However, it is clear that this scheme has never been within a long haul flight of a sponsor. You save £4,500, which is probably the loyalty discount given for providing a whole class of APP students anyway. You also have to live in overpriced OAT accom for the first 20 week further reducing your saving.

The only way this would be a good idea is if you have alredy have planned to go on the APP anyway and have nothing to loose (you still have to pay £195 to apply).

Don't get me wrong, excellent news for the industry. And I wish the very best of luck to those who apply. I just wish they'd be more honest with the marketing and remove the word 'sponsor'.

This 'part sponsored' scheme actually gets you into more debt than the normal APP and costs more than Jerez (which has a pool:) )

EK

[Blinkz]

Price is actaully about the same as jerez. jerez is 62k or so, not including a JOC. Oats course is looking to be about 65k ish with a JOC, not much difference really, and u get a job with TCX at the end.

[EK4457]

Without wanting to get into a petty argurement, I feel that you completely missed the point of my post, Blinkz.

You even show that the cost of the course is roughly the same as Jerez. It is marginally less than the standard APP. The word 'sponsor' just can't be justified.

It is OAT's equivalent of Jerez's Pilot Approved Scheme (Thomsonfly / BACitiExpress). I feel that these were more accurately and fairly marketed (and a better deal - they are paying for their cadets' JOC).

and u get a job with TCX at the end.

Come on, you know better than to post things like that. They'd love you to think it.

That kind of sums up what I'm trying to say. To understand what is on offer here you have to unspin the rhetoric and do months of research on FTO's. Thats OK for those who have, or who can afford £65k. Just a bit unfair on those who are new to the game.

Doesn't make any difference to me. I'll not be applying - £195 is a weekend in Barcelona!

EK

[Blinkz]

Sorry, yea I don't think its a sponsorship at all, and I agree it shoudn't really be marketed that way. Like you say it is just the same as the jerez schemes.

At least the market is moving in a decent direction.

[Sagey]

TCX already has a sponsorship agreement with CTC. Does anyone know whether this is in addition to CTC or whether TCX are no longer taking on CTC cadets?.

Sagey

[jb5000]

On a side-note, *ALL* APP graduates have found employment so far, so indeed what extra are you getting in this course, other than a few grand off?

[BigGrecian]

Looks like they've ditched CTC then?

[Dave Martin]

Surely the essence is in the tailored bank loan. The course provides security in the form of a job at the end (at least very very likely) to back up the original loan.

Not everyone can put the colateral together to cover even this, so this scheme, however worded, has got to be a great opportunity.

[colette]

It seems like a good scheme. If you check out http://www.oxfordaviation.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1854 oxfords forums it says HSBC offer the loan unsecured, which is great for all those who couldnt secure a loan or talk their parents into securing it on their house!

[EK4457]

I really do think that the airlines and FTOs involved need to be responsible with how they present these schemes. As I said earlier, FTE did a good job. But the more I read the literature for this, the more misleading it seems.

An airline sponsorship package seems to have been built out of nothing. TCX want X amount of pilots and they want OAT to train them. OAT can offer a few grand off the price as a loyalty discount. HSBC smell a buck and offer a £60k loan, which is the only real product on offer here.

Keeping the price virtually the same and increasing the loan amount is not a responsible way of making it more accessible. Do the sixth form students applying know what the monthly payments are like on a loan like this? Now try earning a reduced S/O salary 'cause you contribute to your type rating. You'll be living on about £700 pm at best. If you have the finances to support you during this then you could have afforded the APP in the first place!

This scheme is good for those who want to go integrated and already have the resources to do so.

It is what it is. It can be a good oppotunity for the right people. Just remember that the marketing people have attacked it and turned it into a product.

EK

[spaceman18]

Theyve still got 8 CTC cadets starting with them for summer 06

[jb5000]

Unfortunately you still require a parental cosignature, I quote Mike Griffith directly from the Oxford forums:

"A parental guarantee is a co-signature. Essentially the loan will be in both your names. This means that if you default on the loan, your parents agree to either make the monthly payments for you or payoff the full balance of the loan.

If they too defaulted on the loan, then the bank could take action through the courts to seize both your and your parents assets to satisfy the debt."

[Lolo737]

They haven't updated their website yet.
Still just full details of CTC scheme.

[Donandar]

Quote from Mike Griffith on the Oxford Forums...

"There are people wondering why this scheme is better than standard APP since it involves more debt. It is better because there is a job gaurantee and because the airline helps repay the loan on some very favorable terms."

He seems to suggest TC help to repay the loan? Maybe this is something that is only revealed to successful candidates? It could be better than it first seems.

Don.

[SamKitch]

Question

What happens if you didnt study A-Level Maths and Science, does this mean we cant qualify.

If there are going to be more of these training schemes, what will the People who havent studied Maths and Science going to do, this lowers are chances of finding employmen, Doesnt It?

Thanx

[Tallbloke]

Is it me, or is there no upper age limit for applicants?

[McLeod]

There is no upper limit which I was really surprised about; a good thing seeing as I am 28!

[no sponsor]

Some schools will actively seek out those for sponsorship schemes that have a minimum of an aero engineering degree. Cabair did this to a great extent with the BE sponsorship. However, they never stipulated this as a requirement in the ads.

The school will consider you less of a training risk for the groundschool part if you have some formal education in Maths and Physics. However, after taking the groundschool exams myself passing them all, and not having a Physics O-level, I think it is a reflection on the instruction rather than the candidate.

If you are serious about it, you might want to attend the OATS maths and physics brush up course to indicate your willingness. Might make a difference, but I really don't know.

Careful on the no upper age limit. It might not be stipulated, but I would assume TC wants guys under 26. Remember, no upper age limit means many more will apply - hence more people paying the £195.

[McLeod]

Well I posted something on the formum about the age limit and the bloke said there was none. Do you think they would be THAT sneaky to get £195 from us? :uhoh:

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1852

[Turkish777]

Hmmm well it is an airline/charter we're dealing with here, I think they would bend the truth a little to gather up a few 200 quids...guess someome's got to pay for the advertisement..poor us...:ugh:

[DickDastardly]

I've read alot of the posts above and followed a few of the links.

I think alot of people are missing another point here, ok the cost of the sponsored course is ~£4k cheaper than the standard course and the chance of a job if all things are still good but there are some down sides too;

- In 2 years time, if the market is good I'll be tied to a single airline and can't apply for any other
- Has anyone mentioned what TC are like to work for T&Cs wise?

Ok, this kind of deal takes some (some) risk out of the self-funding route because it is more likely you will get a seat upon graduating, but you could end up with a type rating on an aircraft that will be beginning to be phased out (remember it will be at least 2009 by then).

So in summary, do I want to tie myself to a single airline at this point in my career and potential find myself limited further down the line, or do I pay for everything myself and potentially have a greater upside but also a greater risk?

Wondered what your thoughts are?

DickD

[randomair]

I very much disagree with the comment you made about the rating!

A 757 rating is a very good rating to have, it may not be the most modern plane, but i can assure you it will be around for the next while.

Also its a heavy aircraft, so it would be ideal if you wanted to progress to longhaul aircraft (747 etc)

And not to mention, its power to weight ratio is unrivaled by any other, so it would be some fun to fly. its certainly an aircraft i'd like to have some time on before it eventually bites the dust.

[DickDastardly]

Randomair

Please don't think I am being derogatory to the 757 or those who fly it. If I could be a TR'ed FO tomorrow I'd snap at the chance.

But being someone just about to start a career, I wont reach the line until 2007, and it won't be 2009 before I reach 1500hrs to even think about switching to another type.

DD

[Re-Heat]

Quote from Mike Griffith on the Oxford Forums...

"There are people wondering why this scheme is better than standard APP since it involves more debt. It is better because there is a job gaurantee and because the airline helps repay the loan on some very favorable terms."

Regarding this quote that someone posted earlier, since when has a conditional job offer been a guarantee? Not exactly the same thing are they.

I rather tend to agree with many comments here that it is not a sponsorship and - to be fair - not worth much more than the type rating which many airlines will pay for.

Furthermore if the market declines again, it is hardly a guarantee to provide employment.

If only Mike's words were binding...

[schooner]

And then you back out in the cold competing with all the fresh faces to get type rated on a shiney new A350 or 787.

Hardly, you will have a job accumulating hours on a heavy(ish!), EFIS, FMC aircraft and thats what counts. Regarding it being a "Tier 2" airline, not everybody wants to work for Virgin or BA you know:) !

Cheers.

[wheelbarrow]

DickDastardly,

Tier two airline? Maybe mate, but with your attitude, we wouldn't want you anyhow.

I joined TC from OATS 5 years ago. I earn nearly £50k a year and am based at my local base where I grew up. I flew the (too old for dick ?) Boeing and now fly an A320.

Oh, I may fly the A330 soon too.

Additionally, I can work 6 months of the year only in Summer if I wish and still get paid 80% salary all year round.

Oh, also things are starting to move rapidly now in TC. Who knows what fleet we will have by the time DickDastardly joins us in two years? I just hope it's one that he likes. After all, it will be easy for him to get a better job anyhow if we are not good enough for him....

Terms and Conditions:

£30k to £100k from FO to Captain.

Extra for trainers.

Cheap holidays, as many standby tickets as you want.

A good pension.

Loss of licence insurance.

Permanent Health Insurance.

6 weeks leave.

No direct entry Captains.

BALPA recognition.

Paid uniform.

Car Parking.

Meals on duty.

Duty pay.

etc etc

Hope this helps.

Dick, I can't wait for you to join BA or Virgin immediately. A man of your calibre obviously deserves no less.

[DickDastardly]

Wheelbarrow,

You seem to confuse my objective comments as a personal attack on your career. They were general comments and I was looking for open feedback so I genuinely welcome your positive comments regarding your employer and I thank you for taking the time to respond.

Please don't feel that Tier 2 is a damming term, I borrowed it only as a way to distinguish between flag carriers / famous brands and those who are less so. It in no way implies that TC are Tier 2 employers.

I've searched these boards and not found anyone moaning about TC. The only comment was from someone saying it could take 8/10 years to get a command. If that is true, then people obviously don't want to leave, and that speaks volumes itself.

Should I assume from your own experience that TC are moving towards the A320/A330 in the longer term?

Anybody else want to flame-mail me???

Thanks, DD

[EK4457]

Wheelbarrow, c'mon mate. Be cool like the Fonz. :cool:

I can't for the life of me work out why you're on this forum. But, since you are, why are you getting your knickers in a twist? After all, you're on the flight deck and earning big bucks. Why not laugh instead?

If you read DD's posts properly, they ask a few questions which are quite legitamate to ask. The shelf life of the 757 TR. The T&C of TCX. The benefits of the training scheme. All put forward in an fair and objective context.

I personally would wet myself if I got TR on the 757 for TCX. So would he by his own admission.

He was just asking questions and making his point. Thats what forums are for.

Leave the attitude on the flight deck!


EK

[OBK!]

"I joined TC from OATS 5 years ago. I earn nearly £50k a year and am based at my local base where I grew up. I flew the (too old for dick ?) Boeing and now fly an A320."

Ex-oxford, straight onto jets, a great wage at a local base and has flown both boeing and airbus. I wish I was a wheelbarrow. :rolleyes:

[wheelbarrow]

Hmmm,

Fair do's maybe I was harsh, but the point is , that in an industry that has been pretty crappy in the last few years.... TC are one of the first to actually guarantee you a job at the end of training.

It ain't their style to promise the earth and then let you down.

No redundancies etc post 9/11 shows that.... if you get on the course, I would take it Dick, with both hands and I would be prepared to fly a Sopwith Camel if they made you !

As for A320/330..... I have no idea. And that'sthe point...... things change very quickly...... you could well be flying a 787 for all I know with 200 hours.

[SuperJet]

Wow, this is a great thread. Just wanted to add my wee pennies worth here. I am, for my sins, on the CTC Sponsored course, and two groups of cadets have already gone to TCX, and there MAY be another group being trained up soon (so the company propaganda goes...), so I am really worried to hear that CTC is being outdone (and so early in their company's life) by OATs.

There were, I can confirm, a few issues with the CTC candidates who have gone to TCX - but it was not concerning the callibre or abilities of the cadets - it was unfortunate delays to their training schedule. TCX were just short for a while without the CTC groups getting to them on time.

That has all been taken care of tho.

I would ask Wheelbarrow to just confirm, if possible, that TCX has turned its back on CTC and is going to OATs now? That would be a real shame for us guys slaving away to get through CTC's program, as it is extremely demanding and tkaes up every drop of energy and drive!

CTC do have a large number of airlines interested in their cadets, but TCX going elsewhere would be a real blow. Perhaps TCX is taking cadets from CTC and OATs? Any confirmation or comments would be good guys and gals!

Thanks!

SJ

[gliding777]

AFAIK, there is a third TCX course going through training with CTC at present.

SuperJet, check your PMs please

[Blinkz]

I mentioned the OAT TCX sponsorship to CTC in my stage 3 last week and they said that TCX has not left CTC, they are just getting some cadets from a different route. Take from this what you will.

Lets face it, the CTC is better then the OAT scheme by a long way, if just for the extra training you recieve at CTC. Maybe this just shows how good the market is becoming with airlines needing more and more pilots?

[joe]

Before you all get too wound up in your own marketing bu**sh**t belief that you are better than god itself, all because you come from CTC, be humbled to know that in last years recruitment drive for TCX that 2 Cabair students were taken on and only one oxford student. Go figure. It does not matter where you study and once you step into the real world you will realise that no one cares where you trained.

[gliding777]

joe,

Your facts are incorrect about last year's recruitment.

Blinkz and SuperJet,

What you are suggesting is far nearer the truth of the situation.

[joe]

Whatever glider,
Unless you were there, (which i was) how would you know?

[mbcxharm]

For the last 2 years, since Thomas Cook recruitment restarted after a several year lull post 9/11 they have recruited from a range of sources in relatively equal measure - ex-military, CTC, self-improvers who worked in Ops and the large integrated schools. Variety is the spice of life afterall...

As far as CTC are concerned. CP1 joined in April 2004, CP8 joined towards the beginning of this year and CP18 are currently finishing off their training with CTC.

[gliding777]

joe,

Sorry I was referring to last year's recruitment equating to this year's intake of new guys, maybe you were talking about new pilots who joined the airline last year.

Unless I was 'where' exactly do you mean?

[Alicia.C]

I thought that the deadline for this scheme was Sunday 7th August, that's what it says on the details page, so why has it yet not closed? Has anyone received any news on their applications?

Thanks.

[Dave Martin]

The information is still on the OAT website, but the application is indeed closed. Click on the link and it should confirm that.

Results went out on Tuesday I think.

[Quincy M.E.]

I have stage 2 on Monday. Good scheme and all but I think TC could have at least paid for the assesment! £195 to shell out and I probably won't even get in (statistically speaking).

[ant000]

Im wondering has anyone got any idea what to expect on day 1 of selection? What do the tests involve?

Are they in any way similar to the tests run by CTC?

[Quincy M.E.]

Presuming you are attending, hav'nt they sent you the details?

The tests are more or less that same as the normal APP selection but according to one of the posts on the OAT forum this morning the qualifying scores are extremly high. (Higher than the normal APP requirments.)

[ant000]

I dont think the qualifying scores are higher than the normal APP requirements.

If this were the case then those people applying for TCA who have already passed stage 2 at an earlier date would have a distinct advantage.

[Dave Martin]

Ant,

As stated by OAT themselves they only took something like 1/3 of the applicants who had already passed the evaluation days.

It would appear the standards have indeed been ramped up for this one. Not surprising when you have so many applicants, but certainly makes the fingernails diminish faster.

Good luck to whoever makes it!

Does anyone have any further figures on how many will be taken on by TCA? The figure quoted at OAT was something like 3%-5% of the total applicants, which were looking like they numbered around 400 or so.

[Smirnoff Ice]

I thougt a "Wheelbarrow" was just a freight dog thing??!!
Obviously not!!!

:mad: ;)

[stansdead]

smirnoff

Check your pm's

[Rajen]

I got through stage 2 day 1 at OAT for TC scheme :ok:

[dietcokes]

RAJEN

Any hints or tips on what to expect and how to do well... for those of us attending later in the week??

[colette]

First few hours, COMPASS test, tech test and 10FP test. For COMPASS test just concentrate and make sure your comfortable. Adjust chair so you can reach rudder pedals alright, a few of us took our shoes off as well! For the maths test work quickly, its 24 questions and is timed so if you're struggling just move on to the next one however once you've moved on you cant go back again to a previous question. Nothing too tricky, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, basic algebra, pythagoras etc. For orientation test you'll need to read instructions a few times as it can be tricky!
tech test is just physics really, resolving forces, little bit about lift=weight, pistons, valves etc, rotating cogs and magnetism, its multiple choice which helps.
10FP, BE YOURSELF!!! 200 questions and very repetitive so try not to lie or it'll probably show.
Second day,group exercises, general discussion about yourselves then a desert island type scenario and you get to build a bridge too then interview.
try to relax, its actually not too bad, all the staff are really friendly and helpful, Mike Langley even gave us some of his crisps!!
Dont worry if you dont get through, we were told they were testing 60 of us, putting 12 forward to Thomas Cook and of the 12 Thomas Cook were taking 6!
Good luck, enjoy yourself.
:ok:

[Dave Martin]

So, anyone get through to stage III?

Lasted to day two of stage II, but not good enough on the last day I think.

Anyone from Wednesday/Thursday?

[Ockham and hold]

12 got through to the final stage, any one get through?

OCK

[Dave Martin]

From the OAT website -

"We have sent 12 applicant's results to Thomas Cook Airline by courier. The airline will choose, which applicants they wish to interview. We do not know whether they will interview all 12 or not nor do we know when they will announce their final decision."

[Quincy M.E.]

Is anyone who finnished day two of stage two of TCX applying for the Excel scheme? I am though I am doubtful as to whether I will fair any better this time round. If they didn't select for Thomas Cook, why should they for Excel?

Any thoughts?

[fly20]

Why have these two sponsors decided that applicants must have both MATHS and PHYSICS among their A-levels, not just "preferably" like all the other airlines. TCX and XL are automatically excluding a lot of candidates that would otherwise be very good - if you can pass the tests they set then who cares what A levels you have - especially if you have a degree as well - although they don't seem to consider this in the application form.
Sorry - just a general rant - guess who doesn't have maths A-level?? Have physics though - which is basically the same - but TCX/XL make it quite clear you need both. Ooo I have a degree to, but it's not in maths - and a PPL. Oh well.
Lets just hope not all future sponsorship schemes go this way.

[Tallbloke]

The Excel application has a section for maths qualifification. If you read the application it asks for an advanced certificate standard of education (or equivalent). If your degree was science or engineering based this is where I would be pointing it out. I also have no A level maths, it was a long time ago and I was much more interested in getting laid than integration in 1986, however in 2000 I did a foundation year of maths and physics prior to entering my degree course, so I will be sending my application in.

[Superpilot]

I'm not having a prod at you, just asking a question, but when you were ready to proceed on to 6th Form or College, didn't anyone mention to you that Maths and Physics A'Levels were essential for a career as an Airline Pilot?

I admit myself, it's a slightly backwards attitude and it's nonsense to suggest you need A' Level Maths to be able to fly a plane, but surely if you were dreaming of this career as a schoolboy you would've spoken to a career advisor, who would've told you these very things, no?

I'd apply with your subjects anyway. I'm sure other's in your situation would do so anyway.

[SAS-A321]

Grades does not really have anything to say about your ability to fly an aircraft and being safety minded!

[NT42]

Super pilot - my careers advisor didn't help much at all. Last year, before 6th form, I went along for some help. After telling her my situation she basically said "do whatever A-levels you enjoy" and then told me to do engineering basically.

As for the carriers requring maths and physics - rubbish in my opinion. I can't take both next year as grades will go down. AAB's the target for English, physics and geography. That'll be more like BCD if i take maths, physics and English. Not a posibility for me I'm afraid. The real shame is that they'll be losing out and good pilots...

[no sponsor]

It's got nothing to do with flying, but with getting through the ATPL ground studies. It is easier to teach people some subjects at ATPL if you have Physics at A-level.

Personally I think it is a reflection on the schools ability rather than the airline. Cabair only took Aero Engineering degree folks for their sponsored courses in the past.

[Bealzebub]

If they are offering sponsorships and putting their money on the table they can of course ask for anything they like. Years ago when British Airways and its forebears offered sponsorships through Hamble they still insisted on Physics and Maths as prime subjects. Both of these subjects had a high relevance to the subsequent training courses. By raising the bar you simply cut down on the number of applicants who are eligible for interview. Those that do qualify will also likely prove to be good pilots and safety minded.

A point to consider is that a driver who has recently passed their test may well consider themselves to be "good" and "safe". In reality they are very inexperienced and would be wise to keep learning rather than offering such self proclamations. Somebody with the wit and foresight to aquire the right set of educational credentials, is not by and large likely to be any less of a pilot or lacking in aptitude, so the sponsoring airline loses nothing by setting its standards at a level of its choosing.

Having said that, there are many ways to skin to a cat. For all the doors that are closed, there are other avenues that can be pusued. It just takes effort and determination and the early realisation that the world owes you little and certainly not a living.

[GuinnessQueen]

I'm not having a prod at you, just asking a question, but when you were ready to proceed on to 6th Form or College, didn't anyone mention to you that Maths and Physics A'Levels were essential for a career as an Airline Pilot?

Plenty of us out here who didn't do maths or physics A-level and still managed to pass ATPLs OK.

It's a bit of an odd limiting factor really, and often I wonder if the HR people who read the applications have any idea on qualifications other than A-Levels. My second degree involved a mix of flt ops and aerodynamics (so rather applied maths and physics), but alas the HR lady claimed, that despite these aerodynamics qualifications I did not meet the A-level requirements!

But don't be conned into thinking that you can't gain an ATPL based on the requirements stated in a sponsorship advert!

GQ

[Dave Martin]

Given the rarity of these sponsorships I think you have to accept TCA/XLA can place all kinds of limits and still come out with a high number of candidates who exceed their requirements - and who ultimately go on to win a place on the scheme.

If they didn't set some kind of limit then they would quite simply be inundated with applications, and ultimately all there would be to choose between two top-class candidates might be their grades, in which case the one with A-level s would surely win anyway.

That aside, every other sponsorship seems to have an age limit which those of us over the age of 26 just have to put up with. To me, this is rough going, but the sponsoring airline is quite entitled to do so. In this case the limiting factor is A-level results instead of age. If you don't qualify with the A-level grades there are other schemes out there.

[scroggs]

I'm not having a prod at you, just asking a question, but when you were ready to proceed on to 6th Form or College, didn't anyone mention to you that Maths and Physics A'Levels were essential for a career as an Airline Pilot?

Maths and/or physics are not essential for a career as an airline pilot, and never were. Unfortunately, there are a few dinosaurs out there who think that they should be, and a few numpties in HR departments who 'once heard' (probably from the same reliable source that you did) that pilots needed maths and physics and so include it in the job spec.

If you have educational qualifications at a higher level than those demanded by these airlines, apply anyway. What have you got to lose? A stamp? If these airlines stick with this policy rigidly they're being somewhat foolish, but you unfortunately have to accept that they have the right to make any specifications they want. Most are not so short-sighted!

You'd be surprised how many pilots there are in 747s and A340s who haven't even got maths GCSE!

Scroggs

[EGTC]

I agree that these A levels are not essential to pass the ATPL ground studies. There are many aspects of A level Maths and Physics courses that will most probably never be needed when studying for the ATPL ground exams.

However some of the knowledge will be required, such as the gas laws and electromagnetic induction etc. So while the knowledge from a complete Physics A level isn't required, I'd say knowledge over and above GCSE level is definately a good advantage and making these requirements is just Excels way of ensuring that all applicants will have the required knowledge.

I've known I wanted a career in flying from a young age, and everyone I spoke to told me to do Maths and Physics A levels, so thats what I did.

[scroggs]

However some of the knowledge will be required, such as the gas laws and electromagnetic induction etc. So while the knowledge from a complete Physics A level isn't required, I'd say knowledge over and above GCSE level is definately a good advantage and making these requirements is just Excels way of ensuring that all applicants will have the required knowledge.

Sorry, but you're wrong. You do not need to know the principles of gas laws or electromagnetic induction. You will be taught all you need to know about these subjects when doing your ATPL ground subjects; once you have passed them, you will probably never touch most of this stuff ever again. Having maths or physics A-levels may save you a few minutes' study during the ground exam phase, no more than that. Once you begin training on modern aircraft, you will find that the training will not require any kind of detailed knowledge of scientific principles.

I spent the first 22 years of my flying career in the RAF, including many years as a Qualified Flying Instructor (QFI). The RAF requires a far more detailed knowledge of basic ground subjects than any airline employer I know of, yet it still asks for maths and a science only at GCSE level. Many - probably most - of my pilot colleagues both in Virgin and the RAF do not have science or maths beyond that level and have never been at any disadvantage.

There is nothing to justify Excel's demand for maths and physics at A-level other than the prejudices of their recruiting/HR department.

Scroggs

[EGTC]

Ok. I only said that knowledge over and above GCSE level would be an advantage, not essential, and even then not a complete A level course.

Science and Maths A level courses vary between exam boards so two students with these A levels may have studied slightly different things. So I always thought that the requirement for A levels was just to show that we are able to learn a given subject, not that we have any specific knowledge of it, this goes for university entry requirements aswell.

So assuming that A levels aren't really required then whats the reasoning behind Excel making them entry equirements? I know most sponsorships over the years required A levels, but they weren't so specific.

[scroggs]

I think I've explained the muddled thinking behind Excel's demand for Maths and Physics A-levels in an earlier post; in essence it's a misunderstanding by HR people of the demands of the job. However, Excel are free to make whatever demands of you they wish. You aren't compelled to apply! I suspect that they may be a little flexible about this for those who have a degree, but that rather depends on the pragmatism of those who do the initial filtering of applicants.

All jobs requiring passes at particular exam grades are looking for little more than confirmation that you are capable of study and knowledge assimilation at a given level. Only a few jobs require professionally-related qualifications prior to professional training, and flying isn't one of them. Even Geography or History graduates can fly!

Scroggs

[Kempus]

hey there!

who of the final 12 got into the scheme and what were the T&C's regarding the financing through HSBC and with Thomas Cook at the end of the course?

kempus

[philip2004uk]

Is there anyone like me that performs really cr*p

E.G. At work in retail when the managers watching i talk to passengers less and more quieter and then when the manger has gone i go back to confident and talkative.
That's why i don't think i'd do well in assessments as my cabin crew one's have proven.
so i hope that i can becom a pilot on my own by going to training schools that will accept anybody, although it wouldnt be this countrie because of prices and i will have to save up for year's anyway.

[mcand]

Hey

Is any of the TCA guys who got to interview but were not selected applying for Excel?

[Quincy M.E.]

Hi

Do you mean an interview with TCX or day 2 stage 2 at Oxford?