Raising and Lowering Undercarriage - When?

[Sunfish]

The time has come for me to make the next great stride in my stellar career as an amateur PPL - a Constant speed and Retractable endorsement, hopefully this week.

After studying my notes I have discovered one or two things;

The commonest Constant speed props for twins and singles use increasing oil pressure the other way from each other.

There is such a thing as centrifugal twisting moment.

The old steam govenor principle with the little weights is still with us.

The section on undercarriage in the Arrow manual is approximately twice as long as it should be through the fitting of an"automatic landing gear extention system" that must be activated or deactivated regularly thus giving you four options and doubling the possibility for confusion and error.

However I'm missing a page from my notes that must cover when to retract gear after takeoff. When should this be done?

The Piper manual is not particularly helpful it simply says "after breaking ground", and if you like wait for the aurtomatic gear extender (if its activated) to do it at above 75 knots.

So when should gear be retracted and extended? I would have though that once the runway is behind you is a good time.

When should you extend the gear? obviously below 129 kts, and preferably before landing, but late downwind? After turning base? Or Final?

[swh]

Some instructors are in a rush to get them up, as they associate gear up with light twins.

Your in a single, you dont have to worry about trying to climb on one engine like in a light twin, you do have to worry about an engine failure after takeoff.

Down on downwind, so if they dont go down you have heaps of sky below to sort it out.

You could keep them down all day if you wanted.

[Not_Another_Pot]

I have always worked on this:

Best time to put the Dunlops up is after take off.

Best time to put them down is prior to landing.

Works for me:=

[Sqwark2004]

Raise them once a positive rate of climb has been established (and you are above stall speed).

Lower them prior to 500' agl so that by the time you get to that height, you are stabilised.

Do a final check at 200' to make double sure you have done it.

S2K4eva

[flyby_kiwi]

As far as extending the u/c for landing - Id suggest (depending on the type of a/c) extending it to slow down prior to taking flap - youll find on alot of light a/c the gear speeds are usually around (if not higher) than the flap speed - in doing this it makes it harder to forget to put them down as youll otherwise be going to fast. The time to do this would usually be downwind in the circuit.

As far as retraction is concernd, as another has already mentioned dont be in too much of hurry to raise it, as if the engine goes quiet youll need a good few seconds for them to comeback down prior to making the off-field landing. I myself have generally raised it once there is no more runway ahead to reland on should i need to, this equates to about 300ish feet (all things depending).

[Tempo]

I used to use the landing gear retraction point as my decision point to continue (in Multi Engine piston aircraft). Therefore, when a straight ahead landing was no longer an option (following an engine failure)-gear up. This meant that the gear retraction was different for every runway/strip that I went into depending on terrain/obstacles etc. I used the same concept when flying single engine aircraft but OBVIOUSLY with an engine failure you are going down therefore when you no longer have the option to land straight ahead raise the gear and you are then commited to an off field landing.

[Speeds high]

Tempo, im a little confused, i thought a single engine a/c had only one engine, so no such thing as a go no go height??? ie if the engine stops the descision has already been made.

On orginal subject, i dont know much about the arrow, but most of the retracts ive flown had quite a long cycle time; and i cant imagine much worse than a forced landing onto a half retracted gear. So dont be in any hurry.

Also remember that on some airplanes (again i dont know how this affects your arrow) bringing the gear up momentarly increases the drag ( and in the case of the 337 momentarly caused the airplane nearly to stop). Just food for thought.

[Biggles_in_Oz]

You'll get a low climb-rate in an Arrow with the wheels down because the wheel-covers make excellent speedbrakes when they're down.

Check if the Arrow you'll fly still has that 'auto-extend-wheels' feature enabled. It's been disabled on many craft after people had problems clearing obstacles when trying to get out of short strips.

[OpsNormal]

Biggles, I was under the impression that the feature you describe only activated somewhere around 12-13 inches MAP, not somewhere around WOT?

[Ultralights]

i usually do the same as Flyby Kiwi, up when there is no longer any runway ahead you could use.
and down on entering downwind to help loose some speed, or mid downwind if my speed is ok, during my downwind checks.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Agree with fly-by-kiwi.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Gear up when not able to land on remaining runway?...at Yred, where my Bonanza lives, that is almost immediately after positive roc. The reason is I don't want the gear down for a forced landing passed that point I want to slide to a quick stop rather than risk flipping inverted.

Another consideration which most people never think about is gliding speeds clean and dirty. My Bonanza glides best clean at 110kts and gear/flap down at 90kts. THE 90kts figure has built into it enough energy to round out and flare properly with no prop wash helping. Hand in hand with that is a gotcha that can really hurt.

People tend to be taught to rotate the aircraft on takeoff to quite a high nose attitude and climb away at Vy with the gear down in case an engine failure happens soon after takeoff....more height more options + gear down to obsorb impact forces etc like that.

What they don't consider is that if the engine fails at Vy and say 50-100' you will be so slow, and the extended gear will be creating so much drag, that by the time you lower the nose speed will be too low to have much if any control of the arcraft let alone your ROD. The result will likely be lowering the nose A LOT to regain best glide speed and not enough altitude to achieve that so you arrive with little control and a VERY high ROD.

Therefore I recomend the following technique on takeoff.

As the takeoff role begins have some modest back pressure on the control column to keep weight off the nosewheel. As the speed increases this will fly the nosewheel off asap. Let the aircraft fly as soon as it feels ready then let the aircraft accelerate quickly to best clean glide speed asap, raising the gear as soon as positive rate of climb achieved, and then climb away at best clean glide speed, minimum. NOTE: I DO NOT MEAN PUSHING FORWARD AND ACCELERATING LEVEL AT 3' WITH THE GEAR FOLDING UP!!!!!.

This way if you lose an engine at relatively low altitude you will have the energy to control the resulting forced landing.

For exactly the same reasons when departing in a light psiton twin accelerate in a shallow climb but this time to blue line speed (at least) before climbing away at that speed.

Gear down. I religously extend the gear abeam the landing threshold when doing a circuit or passing 1500' on a straight in approach, whether a visual or instrument approach.

[maxgrad]

agree with Chimbu C
Only thing I would add although has been mentioned is every take off is different. If there is an appropriate area to land gear down, not being the runway and it is effective after loosing the runway, leave the wheels down . Obviously each situation is different so judgment is needed as to an effective surface.
If in doubt, depending on a/c type, belly land, least it reduces chance of flipping over.

[4SPOOLED]

i usually pull gear when there is no USABLE runway underneith me and im established in climb.

its usually around 300ft Amsl(remember to use brakes to stop the wheels spinning as they retract), pull gear, set up CSU and check engine performance e.t.c

Downwind is where i extend gear, or if during a straight in, i use the gear as first stage of flaps.....

[swh]

Chimbu chuckles,

Techniques seem a little complicated for a beginner.

"I want to slide to a quick stop rather than risk flipping inverted"

Not aware why this would be so, many fixed gear aircraft have landed off an engine failure without flipping inverted, why would this be the case with a retractable with gear deployed ?

Engine failure at 50'-100' no problem, the aircraft does have momentum. Gear down increases vertical energy absorption. You also want to be at a slowest speed possible when crashing, every extra knot you have increases the kinetic energy in the aircraft, which needs somehow then be dissipated in the controlled crash.

As the saying goes in crashes...speed kills.

With a wet wing you could have 1 mm of Aluminum between the ground and the fuel tank, sliding to a stop will eat that away, let alone the increased risk of punctures for rocks etc on the ground.

"People tend to be taught to rotate the aircraft on takeoff to quite a high nose attitude and climb away at Vy with the gear down in case an engine failure happens soon after takeoff....more height more options + gear down to obsorb impact forces etc like that. "

That’s what the P charts are based on.

Redcliff is different, engine failure after takeoff your looking at ditching into the bay, not a forced landing, ditching I would have wheels up.

"As the takeoff role begins have some modest back pressure on the control column to keep weight off the nosewheel. As the speed increases this will fly the nosewheel off asap. "

I would describe that as a soft field takeoff technique, adds to takeoff distance on a normal runway and not particularly effective in a strong crosswind.

:ok:

[chief wiggum]

Best bit of advise I ever got was "Leave yer hand on the gear know until the gear is extended" ... ie don't put gear down, then rush away to do something else, and foerget to check that all three are down.

Gear should be down well before joining / turning base or final. A "STABILISED APPROACH" will never be achieved if you start throing out high drag devices when you SHOULD be concentrating on airspeed and attitude.

In an INstrument approach the old adage "Gear down to go down" still works for me.

[Kickatinalong]

4SPOOLED, I'm glad you are not an Instructor, retracting the gear at 300' amsl would just not work at alot of airports (think about it)
Kickatinalong.:confused:

[4SPOOLED]

my apologies KL, AGL was what i meant, just a careless mistake:ok:

[Kickatinalong]

I notice your profile has you listed as CPL Student.
How much time do you have ,
I could be one after my TIF.
Carless Mistakes KILL people.
:mad:

[DirectAnywhere]

Take a chill pill mate, seriously.....

The guy made a mistake and admitted it. Build a bridge.:hmm:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Gidday swh:ok:

Retractable undercarriage is, by its very nature, not as strong as fixed undercarriage. It is my view that unless you're force landing a retrac on a known hard surface you should leave the gear up. Witness the excellent job done by the young 210 pilot in the Kimberly recently. Many fixed gear aircraft most certainly have forced landed without flipping but quite a few have flipped over the years...given there stronger undercarriage and, usually, much lower mass I find it a little disturbing. (edit) and even if they don't flip they stop bloody quickly if the nosewheel collapses and the nose digs in.

Dude speed does NOT kill...hitting something at speed is what kills. (ever watched the motogp?) I aree that you want to be touching down as slow as possible but you need enough energy to control the aircraft all the way to a smooth touchdown. Witness the excellent job done by the chap in the Chieftain recently...albeit a planned gear up landing rather than a 'forced' landing....I would argue the last 20' were indentical and it's the last 20' that count.

How many SE aircraft have a wet wing...and no dihedral? Most aircraft of the type we are discussing in this thread have some combination of a highwing/fuel bladder/dihedral...all the Cessna, Piper and Beechcraft Singles I have flown have had a fuel cell...and I have flown all of them.

That’s what the P charts are based on.

That is correct...but not the whole story. P charts are based on clearing a 50' high obstacle that is situated at the physical end of the TODR. So the ONLY time Vy and/or Vx should be used on takeoff is in that very rare eventuality. I would go as far as saying the average PPL holder will NEVER see that. Precious few CPL/ATPLs will ever see it....in 6000+ hrs PNG bush operations I very rarely encountered it...maybe 6 airstrips out of the 318 I operated into and out of in PNG.

On 07 at YRED you're correct...if you get as far as the water...on 25 you're into boggy undulating, swampy ground then houses...I reckon the chances of flipping is VERY high at Yred...then you're a little higher you're going in the water/along the 'beach'...and higher still you MIGHT make it onto a road/ back to the runway.

No a soft field technique is lots of backpressure;) And we are not discussing 'strong crosswinds':p ...a regular feature at YRED btw. I would suggest if the added form drag of this technique is critical then you're already in extremely deep excrement.:ok:

Edit: Do we really want to/can we quantify the difference between the drag created by the elevator or that created by the friction drag from the nosewheel plastered into the runway?

[Biggles_in_Oz]

OpsNormal
The Piper system works on airspeed only.
Arrow IV handbook says
Some aircraft also incorporate a pressure sensing device in the system which lowers the gear regardless of gear selector position, depending upon airspeed and engine power (propellor slipstream). Gear extension is designed to occur, even if the selector is in the up position, at airspeeds below approximately 95 KIAS with power off. The extension speeds will vary from approximately 75 KTS to approximately 95 KIAS depending on power settings and altitude.


I generally put the wheels up soon after positive ROC, as the climb-rate is much better and also because there aren't too many wheel-friendly places to attempt a wheels-down landing where I am.

Chief Wiggum
Keeping a finger on the gear-selector until 3 greens are seen is an excellent technique.

[Kickatinalong]

You are right, I should stay on the pills, who was it who said "let him cast the first stone" etc. At least he had the balls to admit his mistake , I don't tell anyone.
Kickatinalong.:\

[DirectAnywhere]

Good man. Now doesn't that feel better!!

Humble pie; it really does taste quite nice when you get used to it!!;)

[Centaurus]

Tempo. A few points to ponder. In a twin it is better to select gear up as soon as you have a positive rate of climb. If you deliberately leave the gear down until in theory you can no longer land ahead on the remaining runway, then you are creating extra drag and thus delaying the acceleration to best rate of climb speed (blue line).

Judging how much runway you need from an airborne abort is difficult enough in day time and doubly hard at night (unless you are at Tulla 34/16) - and even there you would be at 500 feet after take off and still land with room to spare. By that time you would be well past blue line into a normal two engine climb and you would be unwise to then abort with an engine failure when you could simply conduct a normally flown single engine circuit.

Blue line is not the be-all and end-all of single engine flying in a twin. It maybe the best rate of climb but within a few knots either side you will get a reduced rate when compared with blue line - but it will still climb. It is vital to survival to get the prop feathered quickly on the dead engine and minimise drag such as cowl flaps etc.

On a normal take off in a light twin you will accelerate from lift off speed past blue line very quickly (3-6 seconds at the most). But by deliberately leaving the gear down just in case you have an engine failure, that time period extends and all the while your remaining runway to land on is rapidly diminishing. Keep in mind that an airborne abort with an engine failure will mean almost certainly a high speed flapless landing and with no anti-skid there is a good chance of going off thhe end. If the runway has rain on it then the brakes will not be very effective. It might be a safer bet to deliberately ground-loop the aircraft rather than risk killing people in the off field overrun. In my experience, few pilots have studied the mechanics of how to ground-loop their aircraft unless it is a tail wheel type where it happens naturally.

In most light twins there is a danger period of uncertainty of about 5-8 seconds after lift off where if the gear has not been selected up, you will have little choice but to close the throttles and land straight ahead and try to avoid hurting yourself.

Once the gear has been selected up on seeing a positive rate of climb, then the danger period is around three seconds if the gear is still coming up and you would probably throw it back on to the deck by selecting gear down and hope it locks and gives you brakes.

If one accepts that until the gear is up and the prop feathered you will not have a positive angle of climb (depending on density altitude), then it is simply a case of risk management and accelerating through the danger area as soon as possible. By retracting the landing gear as soon as you have a positive rate of climb you are in a much healthier position than if you leave everything dangling with slow acceleration and eating up runway and leaving an abort decision until the last moment. Every second of airborne flight immediately after lift off will affect or change the circumstances of a continued flight or an airborne abort.

The secret of successful handling of an engine failure in a twin shortly after take off, is speedy identification and feathering actions of the failed engine. For every 5 seconds delay in dithering around going through the classic dead-side dead engine -concfirm with throttle etc, you will decay 5-10 knots which can be fatal.

In a single engine aircraft where an engine fails on climb out, it is generally safer to extend the landing gear as quickly as possible depending of course on gliding distance to a field ahead. Immediately pulling the pitch control to coarse pitch will reduce drag markedly if you are scratching to reach a field.

Way back in another era when the first tricycle gear fighter jets such as the Sabre, Vampire, Hunter et al came into being, the RAF and USAF initially recommended that forced landings be conducted with gear up - just like the conventional gear types such as the Spitfire, Mustang and other similar types. Gear up landings in these tail-wheel types minimised the chances of turning upside down on impact if the gear was down.

However the higher landing speeds of the tricycle gear jet fighters with gear up meant that the chances of severe spinal injuries were significantly increased especially if they held off high. Research indicated that except for ditching (where all aircraft tried to ditch gear up), it was safer for the pilot to land with gear down in a forced landing.

The thinking was that on a rough surface the gear may be torn off or bent with impact but in doing so, the energy of the crash landing was taken by the wheels rather than directly transmitted to the aircraft belly to the pilots spine. And if the surface was reasonably good it may be even possible to use the brakes while the wheels stayed in one piece.

The same principle applies to todays retractable singles. Generally it is safer for the pilot to land with gear down regardless of the surface - rocks etc. You cannot cover every eventuality in a forced landing as there is always a risk of sorts. But you play the statistics and go for gear down forced landings whether flying a single or a twin in a forced landing - providing it is a tricycle landing gear type.

All of the above is a personal viewpoint only and one should check the aircraft POH for ther type you fly. In most POH there is no information and it is left to the pilot to decide the best course of action given the circumstances at the time.

[OpsNormal]

Biggles wrote:

OpsNormal
The Piper system works on airspeed only.
Arrow IV handbook says


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some aircraft also incorporate a pressure sensing device in the system which lowers the gear regardless of gear selector position, depending upon airspeed and engine power (propellor slipstream). Gear extension is designed to occur, even if the selector is in the up position, at airspeeds below approximately 95 KIAS with power off. The extension speeds will vary from approximately 75 KTS to approximately 95 KIAS depending on power settings and altitude.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I generally put the wheels up soon after positive ROC, as the climb-rate is much better and also because there aren't too many wheel-friendly places to attempt a wheels-down landing where I am.

Sorry mate there is a micro on the throttle system on most of them as well, this I can assure you from first hand experience working on them. Even the quote you referenced stated... "depending on power settings"... Last time I looked WOT is just that, wide open throttle.

Just out of interest, what is the Vx of an Arrow IV? Wont you find it to be a lower speed or somewhere around 70-75 KIAS? (You'll have to excuse me for not being current on small Piper aircraft numbers as it has been many years since last flying something of the performance catergory of an Arrow).

All the best

OpsN. ;)

[Tinstaafl]

The throttle micro switch activates the gear horn. As I recall the automatic gear activation is activated purely by airspeed, sensed by the pitot head protruding from the L. fuselage below the pilot's side window.

One of the reasons for disabling the system was to overcome the problem of the gear not retracting after take off or during a go around if the speed was below the system activation speed. You could find yourself in the situation of full power with gear selected UP but the auto extension system would override the retraction selection until the speed was sensed to be above the threshold. I think it was ~75 kts.

[swh]

Centaurus,

"In a twin it is better to select gear up as soon as you have a positive rate of climb. If you deliberately leave the gear down until in theory you can no longer land ahead on the remaining runway, then you are creating extra drag and thus delaying the acceleration to best rate of climb speed (blue line)."

If I was taking off at one of the larger airports with say a 3000m runway, and I used 600 m to get airborne, I would personally leave the gear down until a couple of hundred feet up, engine failure..close both land on the remaining runway. (say gear up at 200' with 1500 m remaining)

On a normal day in Australia, you are not guaranteed any climb performance in a light twin on one engine, as most times we are ISA+10 or 15, you are no better off than in a single at low altitude.

:ok:

[Tempo]

Centaurus,

What I am saying is similar to what SWH has just said. In my experience with Piston twins, at MTOW on a typical 30+ day none of them would climb away well at all on one engine at blue line. Therefore, when taking off from a runway that enables you to land straight ahead following an engine failure at lift off etc-it makes more sense to leave the gear down that bit longer until that option is no longer available.

[Ace on Base]

I generally try and get the gear down abm the downwind threshold to give me time to ensure I have three greens and set up for a stable approach :ok: - just bear in mind, sometimes all three DONT come down:mad:, its then an entirely new issue - then the SOP will / should cover what to do next!!:confused:

BTW - Gear up with positive rate of climb, but that may vary with the surroundings and situation at each individual departure point-which of course would be briefed PRIOR to power application on T/O roll by any diligent pilot - regardless of licence type, single or multi!! :ok:

[tinpis]

Therefore, when taking off from a runway that enables you to land straight ahead following an engine failure at lift off etc-it makes more sense to leave the gear down that bit longer until that option is no longer available.


:hmm: What we do at night?

[Continental-520]

Jeez tinpis,

Don't open that can of worms! I've heard of people surviving engine failures shortly after takeoff at night, and not only surviving, but bringing the plane back to earth reusable. That spins me out, I tell you.

Sunfish,

As Ace On Base and a few others have outlined here, it really depends on the particular airfield you're departing or arriving at and its surroundings, to determine when is the best time to retract/extend the gear. I wouldn't start associating it with "downwind" checks though, cause in the event that you do a straight in approach it does create a window to forget about it.

As far as retraction goes, there are a few situations where you'll find it will be favourable to retract it ASAP, once you're off, nose up, gear up (common sense and judgement included, not too early). There are strips where if you leave it to 300' you may well hit obstacles, obviously, if you're flying in the bush at high operating weights.

In Pipers and Beech's you'll be right, but in a Cessna retractable you also need 10 feet or so ground clearance for those main legs to clear the ground whilst in transit. It's not pretty if they don't.


520.

[Chadzat]

bloody hell stupid "Pprune is updating server" deleted my essay after I posted it. Lucky for you guys I guess.

The crux of it was, I have flown Arrow IV, what I do is gear up after USEFUL runway remaining. Gear down early downwind if approaching after a descent, or late downwind if doing circuits, otherwise you are flying a Warrior for most of the circuit.

You flying a T-tail Sunfish? If so, good luck with low speed handling....or lack thereof.

[Sunfish]

Found out a bit about the T tail yesterday, but with 20 knots of headwind and 70knots over the fence all went very well.

[Kickatinalong]

I thought someone like you would have known what to do at night if you loose the engine.
(1) Trim for best glide speed.
(2) Do all your checks.
(3) At approx. 1000'
(4) Turn ON the landing light.
(5) If you don't like the look of the terrain.
(6) Turn OFF the landing light.
I hope this helps you when next you have the engine fail at night.
Kickatinalong.:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

[ConwayB]

Hello all,

I have been very interested in this thread. Being a (relatively) high hour rotary wing pilot (2650hrs) but an intermittent fixed wing pilot (210 hrs), my way of doing things may not be the perfect solution... after all, there are many ways to skin a cat and everyone has their own way.

This is my way and I'd be interested in getting constructive criticism from those with more experience or close calls. You are never too old to learn from others!

On downwind, abeam the down wind threshold (or in an instrument approach prior to commencement):
BUMFFISHC checks
Brakes - off,
Undercarriage - down (three greens),
Mixture - full rich if in a piston,
Flaps - as reqd for approach,
Fuel - tanks selected, quantity checked, fuel pumps on if nec.,
Instruments - (including Engine instruments, as reqd for this approach (IF checks already done),
Switches - set, (such as lights, etc),
Hatches and Harnesses - closed and secured,
Clearance - requested and obtained.

On Finals or at Take Off (see below) I use PUFFIN Checks.

On approach at about 300' AGL
PUFFIN checks

Pitch - Full fine
Undercarriage - Check down, three greens,
Flaps - as reqd for this approach,
Fuel - Pumps on (if not already selected),
Instruments - checked (mainly compass at this stage just to confirm my heading bug or CDI which I set for the cleared runway, is aligned with the runway I am actually approaching,
N (for NOW CONCENTRATE, GRASSHOPPER).

At Take Off WHEN THERE IS NO LONGER ANY USEABLE RUNWAY LEFT TO LAND ON IN THE EVENT OF AN EFATO
PUFFIN Checks

Pitch - Full Fine
Undercarriage - select Up
Flaps - as reqd for this part of the take off
Fuel - Pumps off above 1000' agl or as reqd
Instruments - Quick Check of engine Temps and Pressures but mainly checking take off direction still aligned with departure runway.
Navigation - PREPARE TO NAVIGATE onto crosswind, SID/RADAR/Assigned heading, TOP of CLIMB checks, radio calls, whatever is next.

I'd be interested in the opinions of others. Constructive please.
(The checks above do not accommodate all acft types and the POH is the final authority. I have found that these checks are good to fall back on).
CB

[tinpis]

:( um...Kicka I have an engine failure after T/O on a hot summer night in my cheeftan and Im heavy and I know it wont fly so I turn on the lights right?

:{ the lights are on the U/C I have just retracted....

[maxgrad]

Tinpis...spot on, this is a piper design feature for the Chieftain, they know as well as we do that the damn things don't fly well on one engine. Due to this they have encorporated the landing light onto the wheel. What we don't see is not going to scare us:sad:

[OpsNormal]

Tinny and Biggles I do accept that I have probably confused the Arrow with one of the myriad of other retractable Pipers and their system.

My apologies, as I said it was some time ago now... :}

OpsN.;)

[Super Cecil]

ConwayB, relatively high hour with 2650? surely you jest, I recently heard that expression used with 2000 hr GA pilot. What would you call somebody with 5000?

I think you can overdo the check side of things, basics I agree but not everything including the oxidation rate of the buss bar. KISS principal.

I see a bloke take off in a PC12 the other day he didn't put the gear up until at least 1,500 AGL maybe a bit behind the Aircraft? Are there any special proceedures for a PC12 that would require that? With that sort of power I spose wheels up wouldn't make a lot of difference to the performance.

[swh]

Super Cecil,

PC-XII performance is not really a good example, at 1000 feet you can easily do a 180 degree teardrop and land back on the runway, try that in an arrow and your dead.

1000ft...3-4nm from the runway in a PC-XII you will need to used full flap to get it in, they have a very good glide capability...did a failure at 30nm, FL150, ended up over the aerodrome at about 9000 ft and descended for ages in the circuit. The whole lot done with the autopilot on, set to best L/D airspeed.

That being said, they recommend gear down for forced landings.

:ok: