Gay and proud(ish)

[back2skool2]

Bit of a weird question... I'm currently in the job market and applying to airlines. I am gay, not overtly, and it certainly doesn't worry me. How is it viewed on the flight deck?

I know with plenty of old military pilots kicking about there might be less open-mindedness than in other industries.

Any thoughts / experiences appreciated. I wasn't planning on screaming out on day one (if ever) but was just interested to see if aviation has made it into the 21st century!

Thanks in advance!

[redsnail]

If you don't mention it then it shouldn't be a problem.
Good luck.

[Megaton]

So you immediately assume they might be more prudish/prejudiced than other individuals? Good grief!

[toomuchradiations]

the airline industry is very open minded and most of the male cabin crew are gay. I reckon gay people are usually better in the customer service field and our industry is just about giving the best service to people!
I think you should be proud of yourself and very confident you will succeed!


tmr

[south coast]

i dont understand why you would feel the need to make such a statement?

[YYZ]

I'm heterosexual, with all the apparent gay stewards in the industry would I expect prejudice toward me?

Works both ways I guess, would only be a problem if you made it one, However, as in any industry, intolerance might be found with a couple of people but not the majority.

YYZ

[WindSheer]

It won't affect your chances at all. As mentioned above its standard throughout the industry now, everyone accepts it perfectly well!!

However, don't go into an interview doing the screaming camp thing!! There are too many gay men who just love to put the statement out there. It may help you pull, but it wont win you a job!!

[back2skool2]

The question wasn't about whether being gay affects your ability as a pilot, just how it might affect the attitudes of those working with you on the flight deck. Being a gay pilot really doesn't worry me - I will fly to the best of my ability either way, but just interested to know if the majority think there might still be some prejudice in the industy.

I know several gay pilots but was interested to note that none have come out at work. Just made me think...

[WindSheer]

It not neccessarily that they don't 'come out', its usaully as I mentioned above. They don't broadcast it like half of the cabin crew do.

You will get treated exactly the same on every flight deck, as long as you don't give it the old.....hi honey!!!.........to the guy on your left!:ok:

[timzsta]

I would rather fly with a capable, likeable, well humoured bloke, who just happens to be gay, then some stuck up old cronie "been there seen it all you know nothing" type that you still hear about.

Ultimately, your sexuality is no business but your own. My advice would be it's totally up to you if you choose to make it anybody elses. But you should also understand I am still looking for my first job so I can't speak with anything else other then my opinion.

Good luck to you mate. If we were all the same it would be a boring world.

[back2skool2]

Thanks for the post Timzsta (and everyone else!). I'm not entirely sure what i was expecting as a response from the debate, but I hope my colleagues have similar opinions to you!

Any other experiences very welcome!

[TenAndie]

I would say exactly the same thing. I previously worked as Cabin Crew with gay men and the guys at the front treated them exactly the same as me, so i would say it wouldnt be a problem as long as your not a total queen !! :eek:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its really not an issue. Some time ago I was the only straight member of the all male crew one day. Aviation still retains a little of the ethos of merit. Perhaps more so than in other industries where measurement of performace and thorough grading of a persons skills are politicaly incorrect.

I think it highly unlikely that your sexuality will be a factor in any selection or career progression.

Good luck,

WWW

[Airborne16]

I did all of my flying training in South Africa with a group of British " straight " lads and to be honest was a little wary of whether or not to tell people that I was gay. After a few months I made the decsion to tell people and was pleasantly surprised by the response. I did not experience any homophobia from anyone and it made me feel much more comfortable that I was no longer hiding such a huge part of my identity.

To be honest nobody was particularly bothered.

[Level Changer]

It's an entirely personal choice for you to make alone Schooler.

For my euro's worth, I can say that I'm 25 and have been exposed to various reactions from skippers concerning my sexuality since I first apeared in the right hand seat 6 years ago.

Firstly, you'd be very surprised to learn just how many pilots out there are gay. I'm openly out at work and always have been. Responses from fellow Captains have ranged from (the exceptionally rare) silent treatment, to some guys opening up a whole new discussion topic to keep you both awake on those long night time asia crossings! I even had one Capt ask me directly if I was gay just after TOC ex Heathrow (still 9 hours or so of flying ahead of us), only to then pull out a stack of photo's of him and his partner (male) on their recent hols!

You'll find that even some of the hard line ex military guys (sweeping generalisation I know chaps), numb their edges after a litttle exposure to the real world.

Ultimately, be yourself, do your job to your absolute best, and you'll be very unlucky to come across anything but respect from your work mates.

Anything else, feel free to private message me.

LC.

[smllisland]

I donot understand why someone should
bring their sexual preferences onto a flight deck, is it not personal buisiness?. Is there a need to go about telling everyone your gay, who needs to know and who wants to know anyway. I guess if you say you are 'proud' then an in your face gay would get on peoples nerves and you can then expect a negative reaction. Its down to personality in the end.

[Airborne16]

" I donot understand why someone should
bring their sexual preferences onto a flight deck, is it not personal buisiness"

I don`t think that its a case of anyone wanting to be in your face, but is it not a normal thing when you are in work to chat about your partner, wife, kids etc? Straight people can do this without having to worry about what type of reaction they will receive.
Its an important part of you and if you have to "edit out" parts of your life in conversations with your colleagues then that it is pretty sad - its certainly not in your face.

[recceguy]

Well, I'm a long-range Captain and I'm normal (I use that word on purpose) Working with homosexuals is a nuisance in the civil aviation world, but how can it be avoided ? there are simply too many of them.
A couple of F/Os have this infirmity in my company. Without even discussing the subject with them, I acknowledge we don't go very well personnally, and we limit out our talking to SOPs and standard calls. Probably like dogs : I never kick them, but they immediately feel that I don't like them.
By the way, I also don't like smokers and muslims - but I can fly with them without crashing the aircraft, and I can also be quite courteous and talkative, with a good CRM attitude.
You can hate people with no need to be rude with them - ask some recent terrorists....

To make things easiers for the expected opposition, I will add that I used to be a fighter pilot for 24 years, with combat and command experience .... also I'm not a native english speaker, that might be a contributing factor ?

[back2skool2]

Well it started off fairly promisingly...

It's a pity that there are some bigots out there, but then that was to be expected.

I guess on balance the thread has made for good reading. I've had several PMs from pilots in various jobs and at various stages of their careers - some gay, some not. I think that they don't feel it has been an issue for the most part.

Keep the comments coming!

[toomuchradiations]

RECCEGUY YOU'RE DISGUSTING, RACIST, AND STUPID.

I just hope you'll terminate your career soon as your behaviour and way of thinking is an hazard to aviation.

I'm really ashamed that somebody else may read your post and think that that is an average pilot thought.....BECAUSE IT'S NOT!

[Turkish777]

I think you should just warn the Captain and say, look if you drop your check list on the floor you may have to kick it all the way down the aisle to the rear toilets in the tail before bending over to pick it up because I am infact gay...:E

[WindSheer]

Well, I'm a long-range Captain and I'm normal (I use that word on purpose) Working with homosexuals is a nuisance in the civil aviation world, but how can it be avoided ? there are simply too many of them.

Who do you fly for??
You could easily get the 'push' for making remarks like that in the UK.

By the way, I am as straight as they come!!

[Turkish777]

Recceguy or is it Race-guy Im a social smoker, can I be your freind, I only have a couple a day, more so when I have a beer, just want to be your mate because you sound such a nice guy...So you live on Clipperton island are you sure you're not a pirate..???

[sexygirl]

Recceguy

As a 'long range captain' you're probably getting on a bit and therefore thankfully will be retiring in a few years. This is 2005 - Queen Victoria passed on quite a while ago...

Oh and I do sleep with men - but then I am a sexygirl!!

[scroggs]

Don't feed the trolls - in this case, Recceguy. His post is intended only to wind you up; ignore it. However, his redneck attitude exists out there, in any walk of life, and you will have to learn to deal with it. However, don't worry too much about it; people like him are thankfully getting fewer.

Scroggs

[reynoldsno1]

I know with plenty of old military pilots kicking about there might be less open-mindedness than in other industries
so you're close minded about "old' military pilots??
RECCEGUY YOU'RE DISGUSTING, RACIST, AND STUPID.
stupid and bigotted yes, but he/she never mentioned race.......

Each to their own, but you don't have to wear a badge all the time....

[toomuchradiations]

Dear Professor reynoldsno1,
you do not think that people who admit they don't like gay people,smokers and muslims are to be considered RACIST??????????.......Sorry to remind you that you can be racist even if you don't talk about race.

[scroggs]

OK, that's enough.

I will not have this topic taken over by extreme points of view on either side of the argument - not that there was an argument until the idiots stepped in.

As a point of information, those with prejudices against habits, religions or sexualities may be all sorts of things, but they cannot be described as racist unless they make an overtly anti-race comment. :rolleyes: :hmm:

Scroggs

[recceguy]

OK, my turn to answer, after a short bunch of flights back and forth over a little pool of saltwater.
It's my pleasure and my right to dislike who I want. I just don't have to spoil the working environment (understand the safe prosecution of the flight) by making my distaste obvious through inappropriate comments - which up to now I have been quite good in - and to the displeasure of some, I will be in the business for another 15 years.
I just got irritated by the first 19 posts of that thread, with everybody congratulating everybody, and positively stating that they would be happy with everyone behaving in any manner, and more if you want. And you will have noticed that by just expressing an opinion different of the one from the apparent majority, I got my fare share of insults and threats (without much argumentation, isn't it ?) There used to be names in the past for that.
So enough of political correctness, once again. I would have got problems in UK talking openly about my feelings ? Great, I'm from another civilisation, featuring a little bit less of focus on those poor human deviances. Maybe there are more of them the other side of the Channel ? (yes, I agree, that's an easy one)
And to give fuel to my detractors, the aircraft I flew were Mirages and Jaguars, and during more than 20 years of front-line squadron service, I never met any of ... them (and as Sqdn CO, I was aware of much) No, I had countless problems with NCOs and young pilots chasing the local beauties on overseas tours, and I had to wait to be out of the French Air Force to meet that nuisance which is the subject of the thread.

[ssg]

Just the subject is making me laugh.

At this point does anyone really care about someones sexual orientation. Hasn't that subject been beat to death.

I think a more interesting issue is HIV/AIDS. Sitting in close proximity to someone infected, breathing recirculated air, touching similar controls, switches ect.

It's not a gay thing as anyone can have this bug. What do you guys think about sitting for 5 hours next to a guy who's HIV infected?

[Sagey]

SSG are you being serious? - if so I think you should do some research into how the HIV virus is contracted, it certainly cannot be passed on by sitting in re-circulated air, touching the same screens etc

[smllisland]

Gay men are high risk for HIV and HepB due to the fact they change partners frequently and are promiscuous generally. It is a known medical fact and proven.
This often means they talk about sex a lot.
This is what straight guys may find offensive in the cockpit, we don't want the bedroom secrets in our face and i would consider this un wanted banter as sexual harrassment.
The guy who is proffessional and maybe mentions friends trips away, restaurants,
hobbies in his general chat ... then who cares if he is gay?
Lesbians are are lot more low key and generally fit in better allround.

[back2skool2]

Before Scroggs or another moderator wades in (justifiably)... (and this was originally my post) - I'm delighted to hear what everyone has to say about sharing a flight deck with a gay guy. Points have been made on both sides of the argument, which is what a debate is about. Sure I don't agree with some of the comments, but I DO have to draw the line at bringing HIV / AIDS into the thread. That is NOT a gay issue, it's a universal, omnisexual one unrelated to my question.

Every reply to the thread is appreciated, but do not deviate from the original question.

Are you happy to have someone flying with you that has a different sexual orientation?

[scroggs]

I think this can be quite adequately answered by saying that anyone can be a jerk, dislikeable and difficult to work with, whatever their orientation (sexual or otherwise). And, obviously, the opposite holds true. I'm sure that, despite his somewhat old-fashioned prejudices, Recceguy is a thoroughly professional operator who would not let his personal feelings outweigh the need for crew cooperation whilst in the flight-deck. I doubt he'd buy you a beer, however!

Anyway, the point is that sexual orientation should be (and normally is) irrelevant to the safe operation of an aeroplane. Beyond a degree of pub-level humour, it is not generally a subject for discussion on the flight deck, as equally are not membership of the Freemasons, model railway clubs, or birdwatching. I have nothing against these diversions, but they are minority interests and thus unlikely to be fruitful territory for flight deck discussions. Sexuality is not just an inappropriate discussion topic in that environment, it is actually not that interesting and therefore is unlikely to be brought up. More important is the ability to do your job and just get on, at an admittedly fairly trivial level of discussion, with all of the crew.

Scroggs

[fireflybob]

I feel that to an extent this is a "generational" issue.

Talk to the "younger" generation and the issue of being gay (or bisexual) is just not an issue to that age group and, in my opinion, rightly so! The younger generation are far more accepting of a person's sexuality - this may be because of more awareness and education or the advent of equal rights legislation etc.

When I entered the airline industry in 1970 a flight engineer told me over a beer that nobody cared what you were like so long as you could do your job properly - I think he was correct!

An earlier comment assumes that all gay men are promiscous. This is not the case and it is timely to comment that some straight people are promicous also.

Perhaps we also need to be reminded of the fact that (in the UK) it is now illegal for an employer to discriminate in respect of a person's sexual orientation.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Slightly at a tangent but here goes:

Young people are far more PC than older people. Some young people are very righteous in their level of PC'ness.

I therefore think that differing attitudes to politcal correctness are the most likely area of CRM conflict in the flightdeck.

Sweeping generalisations I know. But I have been suprised a little recently by just how PC some 20 year olds can be. Things, society and school have changed a lot in the decade since I was that age.

A friend of mine experienced an illuminating incident recently:

Whilst eyeing the passengers boarding his aircraft he noted a young male passenger approaching with a very large portable music system under his arm. Clearly it was far too large for cabin luggage and he remarked to his young FO; "he's not carrying that Wogbox in the cabin - jeez look at the size of it!".

Now my friend is in no way a racialist. He simply grew up in the 1980's in a part of Britain where large portable music players were called Wogboxes. An unfortunate term that has gladly passed into disuse for a variety of reasons.

Apparently the First Officer reacted as if the Captain had just donned a pointy white hat and had pulled out a cross and matches from his flightcase. He spent the rest of the day trying to convince the mortified and outraged young FO that he wasn't some kind of monster. Doubt still lingers he suspects.

My point - if there is one - is that both partied need to be aware of PC sensitivity levels and BOTH need to moderate their behaviour. The Captain was at fault though innocently. The FO caused the bulk of the CRM issue though innocently.

Me, I blame the schools.

Cheers

WWW

[starship]

back2skool2

What has been said above by the majority is how it is in reality.

I would make it your duty to operate every flight to the best of your ability and to become a competent and valued crewmember.
I would also give that advice to any other new f/o regardless of sexuality.

In time, when people realise that you do not talk about having a heterosexual relationship, the open minded crews may start to make reference to their acceptance of gays. The not so accepting may not ask you anything. I think these situations all depend on your ability to deal with people, and their differing attitudes to life.

You will hear all sorts of stories on the line regarding what people have, are and will get up to in their personal lives, and I can guarantee that some of them will put your being gay into somewhat of a shadow!

At the end of the day, be respectful and a good operator, and you deserve it back. Those who are not the above are probably known for it anyway, and those who are will become friends or colleagues you enjoy working with.

Some people just do not feel comfortable being subjected to this issue, just like you may not be interested in what your Captain did with her girlfriend. This happens not just with the gay issue, but with many.

Just be competent, friendly and respectable - you won't find any problems and you will find people who will accept you for who you are.

Good Luck, and enjoy!

cheers,

starship :cool:

[back2skool2]

Thanks for that Starship... makes sense to me. The flying was always going to be the most important focus for me, and a range of views has certainly been aired.

Now I just need to start finding that elusive job!

Fingers crossed and thanks all.

[VFE]

Interesting story from WWW .

Terminology, attitudes and behaviours change between ages and the key to a healthy flight deck and healthy society for that matter must surely be the ability for everyone to realise that the reason we're such a wonderfully creative species is variety. As such we should learn to respect it even if we disagree.

How boring would life be if we were all the same? All marching in the same direction. All inspiration for creativity and advancement in understanding of this weird and wonderful planet would be quashed if everyone thought in the same way wouldn't it? Normality is only relative to what you've experienced in your life. Hitler would've been served in any American restaurant in the 1930's and 1940's. He was a non-smoking, non-drinking, vegetarian in a smart suit (perfect guy for 2005, eh?!) but contrast him to black US olympic champion Jesse Owens who was refused service in many American eating establishments after his success in Berlin in 1936.... mankinds narrowmindedness creating unnecessary negativity.

But back to WWW - how much longer before 'Ghetto-blaster', for similar reasons, is found to be unacceptable terminology too? The times are a-changing. ;)

VFE.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I guess that's the point.

Cheers,

WWW

[fade to grey]

Back2Skool,

I don't think you will encounter many problems -its your business and yours alone.
I don't shout from the rooftops that I am straight and enjoy boffing the ladies and I wouldn't expect a gay person to do the same about blokes.

Scroggs- and what is wrong with discussing modelling interests on the flight deck ? Have you confused modellers with train spotters ? I know alot of pilots who model trains,boats and planes - a harmless and constructive hobby.
It must be better than the constant cycle of flightdeck chatter that goes something like:
girls, beer,cars (yawn),rosters,pensions ...repeat until you die of boredom.

And if you cannot discuss the freemasons...surely that means alot of very quiet BA flightdecks ?or am I stereo typing ?

regards,
FTG

[VFE]

Fade to Grey - LMAO! :}

That told him!

Are you going explain yourself now Scroggs? :D

VFE.

[south coast]

i understand the original question, but i am not sure how relivant it actually is.

i say this, because whether it is in the cockpit, an office, in the operating theatre, in a supermarket or where ever, it is just a personal choice as to where you decide to draw YOUR own line in morals and how we each decide to live our lives.

i am not going to say one way or the other, but someone who considers homosexuality to be immoral is, by definition of freedom of speech and thought, equally as correct as someone who considers it acceptable.

put it into context, if we allow people to publicly condone the death of innocent people on news interviews on tv, underground bombings and twin towers, then i guess one is allowed an opninon either way on homosexuality.

[Altostratus]

As a gay airline pilot I find that most of the people I work with respect me for my professionalism and consider my sexuality a private matter........ attitudes vary according to upbringing and society. In africa/ middleast its taboo and the western world more tolerant, but I find the pilots with Big egos have the most problem with a guy who is bold enough to be 'out' at work.

Innuendo is harmless, but what has got to be most important is the airline managements responsibilty and response to any clear case of discrimination towards a Gay/lesbian/muslim/black/ asian... etc pilot

Its a Great job and being in the cockpit is heavenly:O

[scroggs]

Fade to Grey I know there are plenty of modellers within flight decks around the world (though perhaps most commonly in British carriers) - I'm one of them! However, railway modellers seem to be held in about the same level of esteem (esteam?;)) as train (or aircraft) spotters... As for Masons and BA flightdecks, who knows what goes on in either institution? :suspect: :E

[recceguy]

It's not too much a problem with F/Os - after all, monitoring an autopilot down to the flare is not so difficult, compared to other branches of aviation. But as soon as you start considering leadership and bringing a team together, quite often by virtue of example, it's another story. Everybody will agree that there is something inherently flawed in their mental picture, should it come from childhood, city life, lack of sport, or chemicals in the food - nobody cares in fact, but it is there.
Those people saying "but I'm a good professionnal " are usually in their very first years in the business - and remember, in some majors, it's close to ten years to become a Captain, so in that not-so challenging environment, it's quite tempting to get distracted with deviations.
Some years ago on a major TV Channel, a human being was interviewed (in full US Navy uniform!) while doing what they call his "coming out". He was presenting himself to the good american public as a fighter pilot. Looking more closely to the subject, it appeared that he was only a navigator on A6 - so the behaviour became more appropriate.

When you say the western world is more tolerant, try to be a little bit more accurate - I assume you speak only about the english-speaking part of it.

And eventually, you will be delighted to know that I'm a recognized modeller !

[Iz]

South Coast, you're obviously right in that every person is entitled to his or her opinion. However, when your opinion is based on arguments that are long-proven to be untrue, and you swing that opinion around and hurt other people (whether you intend to or not), it's a whole different ballgame.

If I were to be of the opinion that all people with brown eyes are dumb and should be stoned to death because they are inferior to people with blue eyes, then I can have that opinion, but it is not based on facts and would in fact hurt people's feelings.

Having flown with gay captains (being straight myself), I truly have not noticed the slightest lack of competence, in any area.

I also frequently fly with straight colleagues who spend the entire flight talking about their sexual conquerings and adventures. Promiscuity is certainly present in our world, especially if you have lots of layovers in outstations.

So the bla-di-bla generalizations should end here. Get with it:
- Gays are not inferior people
- Gays are not gay by choice or got the 'virus' from someone else
- You cannot get HIV by touch or even kissing
- Gays are not by definition more promiscuous than straight people. Heck, we straighties outnumber them by 9 to 1.

What disgusts me is any person who deems himself superior to ANY other person in this world.

[scroggs]

Iz, I think you have misunderstood South Coast's post. Nowhere did he suggest that homosexuals (or any other group) were inferior, nor did he imply or state that he felt himself to be superior. All he did was express the perfectly reasonable point that it is not compulsory for everyone to hold the same opinion on the morality of homosexuality. After all, many religious organisations regard homosexuality as immoral and incompatible with their principles. You are entitled to disagree with them, and express your disagreement. South Coast didn't even express his own opinion; merely suggesting that it is perfectly acceptable to hold a contrary point of view to most of those expressed here.

To use your allegory, while brown-eyed people may be perfectly capable, I don't have to like them, or have them in my private club. You can disagree with me, but you can't force me to change my opinion, even if the fact that I hold that opinion upsets you. Fortunately, political correctness has not infiltrated society far enough to dictate our opinions - yet. Long may it remain so.

Scroggs

[south coast]

thanks scroggs, but i will answer this one myself.

iz...

i have a good friend who is gay, and i have flown with him as my captain and also with him as my f/o...fine, no problems good fun and great crm.

we are friends, i dont agree with his choice in life, but i accept him for it and that is that.

i dont understand your statement.

quote:

However, when your opinion is based on arguments that are long-proven to be untrue, and you swing that opinion around and hurt other people (whether you intend to or not), it's a whole different ballgame.

what arguement, and what is untrue?
what opinion am i swinging round?