Islamist Web Site Warns U.A.E. to Expel Non-Muslims [Archive]

AMX10

26th Jul 2005, 21:57

Wastafarian;

Your input is far too logical for any of the participants in this forum and is only a pre-amble to events taking place today, but reflects the same state of mind.

LAPD went to every extent to justify their actions in the King case.

What we must remember now is that all Arabs and muslims are terrorists, whether we like it or not and Arab streets are not safe for anyone.

Or so they say.

Locals with their influence have not made a better impression either when given a chance, nor have other Arab governments.

Today they hide in negation and assume publicly that this is the result not of their imposition of Islam on the other residents, but on those who have no authority to live out of their grip.

Westerners live a life of their own and they at least have more liberties... The booze license being a perfect example of unspoken segregation.

At the end of the day and like it has been said by somone else earlier on this forum, those at who the finger points, are the cause of this worlds pain and suffering. It is not the interest of the multi national conglomerates or the willful act or unwilling governments that support them.

And ignorance of westerners or their lack of desire to know more about Arabs and muslims does not help. How many times, does one hear comments in this country that would otherwise be deemed politically incorrect had we been in a western country. Yet socially they are not only acceptable but a savoury piece of conversation.

Now find me a westerner who understands these facts, beyond feeling comfortable behind the bigotted spinning exercised by the media to make them feel good about the colour of their skin, their creed or religion.

The worst is that the west in its position as the "developped world" is speaking like Gaddafi's government 20 years ago, with bigotry as the plane of the subject at hand.

Bush, Blair, thank you!

And these are pilots who have travelled, what about those who haven't.

:suspect:

Glorified Donkey

26th Jul 2005, 22:36

So what your saying is my muslim neighbours are only feeding me to make me fat and then roast me and make me their dinner? Thats why they gave me a ginger bread house! :p :}

SASless

26th Jul 2005, 23:09

Well boys your usual anti-American prejudice shows itself in spades here.....contrary to what you think I have been to a few places about the world....and lived there at length....and not by benefit of the US Government.

I have been in the close company of King Hussein the father of the current King....taught Iraqi pilots from their VIP flight in days gone by....done the Pakistan,Jordan,Saudi, Bahrain, Somalia and Iran gigs as well.

If you think for a moment that Al Qaeda, or whatever you wish to call the current crop of Islamic terrorists, do not consider you a target.....your commonsense is lacking.

Whether you wish to admit or not....when it becomes the right thing to do....terrror attacks will happen in the places you live. You may be the best of friends with many fine people of the Islamic faith but when the terrorists select you...or your favorite restaurant for an attack....all that will mean nothing. If your friends are sitting there with you ...they join you as a target too.

I would imagine it will come as a surprise to you when it happens....if it happens...but no place is immune from this violence...not even he holy cities in Saudi (if you read the papers).

Sneer all you wish and put up your cutesy photos but while you do....jump over to the beheading videos....and consider those as well....that was not LA...and it was not Americans doing it. The victims were not just Americans either.

Its your head....bury it in the sand.

Me....I would consider developing a keen situational awareness of what is going on around me and consider what I am doing that might make me more vulnerable....and do something else that puts room between me and the potential targets.

That was my only point ....that a bit of awareness does not hurt.

If I shook up your comfy bit of life by suggesting some ugly truth....please do accept my apologies.

billy34-kit

27th Jul 2005, 03:33

Wastemytime farian, do me a favour, go on google engine search and tape ' pictures of hostage'.
I have too much respect to print any picture here, but you have to go see for yourself....a lots of brave guys with mask, big knives and lots of blood, chanting Allah blah blah! you know the rethoric!

Payscale

27th Jul 2005, 03:39

No you are right. Terror can hit anybody anywhere. I dont agree that we are more at risk in dubai, than citizens of London or NY.

AMX10

27th Jul 2005, 06:37

SASless;

We should give you a distinction for your round of duties, but obviously even after so much exposure your attitude is one of disregard and petty consideration.

The King of Jordan is no representation of the Arab man in he street with a PHD in his pocket and no job to feed his family, at the behest of governments that import foreign labour like you to take his posting.

Please spare us the rethoric of Colonial two step sorry dance, the timing is wrong and is only a reminder of the same philosophy that is the reason of today's problems.

Can you define Islamic?

whatever you wish to call the current crop of Islamic terrorists

Glorified donkey

Locals today will do anything to maintain the peace, even if they have to feed a neighboor who is foreign to show how hospitable they are. A really big step considering they were never friendly before.

billy34-kit

27th Jul 2005, 07:48

AMX10...

Ready to do anything to preserve peace hum!....I guess you right in your statement....

there is from the press few months back

''THE government of Qatar is paying millions of pounds a year to Al-Qaeda in return for an undertaking to spare it from further terrorist attacks, official sources in the wealthy Gulf state claimed last week.

The money, paid to spiritual leaders sympathetic to Al-Qaeda, is believed to be helping to fund its activities in Iraq. In a recent message broadcast via the internet, Osama Bin Laden told followers that operations in Iraq were costing Al-Qaeda more than £500,000 a month.

The sources said a deal between Qatar and Al-Qaeda was first made before the 2003 invasion of Iraq amid fears that the oil state, a close ally of Washington, could become a terrorist target. The US Central Command for the invasion was based in Qatar.

A senior government source said that the agreement was renewed in March after an Egyptian suicide bomber — thought to be associated with Al-Qaeda — struck a theatre in Doha, Qatar’s capital, killing a British teacher during a performance of Twelfth Night.

“We’re not sure that the attack was carried out by Al-Qaeda, but we ratified our agreement just to be on the safe side,” said a Qatari official. “We are a soft target and prefer to pay to secure our national and economical interests. We are not the only ones doing so.

Enough said!!!

AMX10

27th Jul 2005, 08:28

Ready to do anything to preserve peace hum!....I guess you right in your statement....

It is not the case Billy that is not what I am trying to do.

......Qatar is paying millions of pounds a year to Al-Qaeda in return for an undertaking to spare it from further terrorist attacks, official sources in the wealthy.....

My understanding and clearly it is the case although not mediatised is that all sympthisers of Al Qaeda are in Jail, and if they were not in a police state like qatar's I wonder where alse they will be?

For your information Qatar does not have an army and has hired the US to defend its borders.

....operations in Iraq were costing Al-Qaeda more than £500,000 a month....

So we have an agreement that it is all about money.

....the agreement was renewed in March after an Egyptian suicide bomber — thought to be associated with Al-Qaeda — struck a......

Always the case, terrorist, muslim, Egyptian and "thought to be associated" in this case everyone who is muslim and Egyptian or whatever is simply bonifide for an Al Qaeda association, where is the scientific fact that shows who is Al qaeda and who is not, can you answer this question?

We've been watching these intelligence agencies with all their technology that can monitor what you spend in a supermarket and what brand of condoms you use but no one can define Al qaeda or who belongs to it.

Yet anyone who challenges that is immediately made a target by the same agencies and branded Al qaeda, and accused of supporting terrorism;

I was under a clear impression and factual knowledge shows that Al qaeda like bin ladin were set up by the US to rid Afghanistan of Russians, can you deny this?

Yes enough said, live in your little mind that the big bad wolf is there to get you and its name is al qaeda, unbeknown to to you, perhaps you need not look any further than your home turf to realise that its none other than your own government creating a mirror for it's own needs to move forward in its agenda at any cost.

Considering little westerners know more about Arabs and Islam I am not surprised to read these statements one after the other, simply anchoring ignorance in a subject matter that is far subtler than your mind could ever fathom to grasp.

Yes Enough said! But perhaps the following article can enlighten your quest for truth and the similarity between events during WW2 and today's malgamation of religion and politics.

http://www.grisda.org/origins/23003.htm (http://http://www.grisda.org/origins/23003.htm)

Is this the next step in the fight against terror?

http://www.remember.org/image/378.gif

Or this of the occupied territories?

http://www.remember.org/image/395.gif

or does this remind you of recent events in Gauantanamo?

http://www.remember.org/image/lineup.gif

Make your mind up before raising the flag of of morality or rights none of your statements will stand in the face of history or fix todays problems!

Skinny Dog

27th Jul 2005, 10:22

I thought it was pretty well accepted around the Gulf that the theatre bombing in Qatar occurred after the Qataris didn’t make their scheduled VERY LARGE payment to certain Islamic “charitable institutions”. I was told the payment was made forthwith immediately after the attack and - surprise, surprise - there have been no follow up attacks since then. And nor will there be, as long as the money keeps flowing in.

No one will admit to it officially, but again it’s pretty well accepted that Dubai makes similar large payments to the same “charitable institutions”. Dubai also has a very heavy CID presence virtually everywhere on the street / phone / fax and email, who keep a very close eye on anyone even likely to step out of line.

I’m sure they also keep a close eye on the (many?) main players said to reside in Dubai, but I don’t think they really have to, as the last thing those main players want it to stir up any problems for themselves in what amounts to a very comfortable main base, a no-questions-asked international banking centre and their major transport hub (or yes, no guesses about their airline of choice).

A standard joke around town for some time now is that OBL has been living in a penthouse in the Burj for quite some years now, and every time he needed to make a “from my cave” video, he’d just slip across to the fake rock grotto in the Jumeirah Beach Hotel basement with his camcorder. [Note to the CIA: it’s just a joke, guys!]

Could an attack occur in Dubai? Quite possibly, but for my money, if one does, it won’t be by one of the main player Islamic Terrorist organisations, not unless there’s some major change in the current status quo, for all the reasons I’ve quoted above.

For my money, if one does occur, it will be either by two or three young bloods who get all stirred up after watching too much Al Jazeria, or far more likely, we’ll see a repeat of what has already occurred some years ago. Some local will get riled up after some half-cut expat slapper knocks back his advances in a local night club. He’ll leave (or be thrown out of) the night club, go home, pick up his AK (or God knows what else) and return to the night club to settle things in the traditional way. The Western media are a bit thicker on the ground in Dubai these days than they were last time this happened, and they’ll turn what will quite likely have little or nothing to do with terrorism into a classic CNN-style feeding frenzy.

AMX10

27th Jul 2005, 10:32

Skinny dog You could not be closer to truth when you speak of the media presence and it's spinning impact on the most mundane of topics.

I will disagree though to say that it is not Al Jazeera that will stir the young man up but rather the ill reflected amalgamation of terms and creed exercised by western media that will do it; for these institutions are not any longer serving their charter as information sources but rather misleading and spun inofrmation sources.

Al Jazeera is only the balancing weight if anything of networks like FOX and Christian scientist networks and if you asked me I would tell you that it is also poor beyond the sensational in informing anyone on real facts so it is also failing miserably!

SASless

27th Jul 2005, 11:11

Who is the Fool? The Fool or the man arguing with the Fool?

There is such a thing as blind ignorance that is disguised by self deception.

There is one very lost soul amongst us...humour the guy Billy....you are not going to change his mind until he opens his eyes and heart. He hears but his own voice.

billy34-kit

27th Jul 2005, 11:15

SAS...good call thanks!

AMX10

27th Jul 2005, 11:18

Yes, lets rally and show the imbecile......Typical answers coming from those who hold the universal truth........ These answers are no different ffrom the rethoric of terrorists, it is called the wooden tongue...toc.toc.toc.

SAS, knowing the king of Jordan does not make you more human than others, more learned than others, or entitle your views to go on unchecked.

After all you were just ahelicopter pilot for him, not his financial, political or well-being advisor. So stop ranting as if you were above the rest.

What surprises me is that neither you or billy are from this part of the world, yet you want to impose your view on others and are suprised why they do not prescribe to it. The only statements that seem to materialise from your mind, is how savage and cruel these muslims are...... I mean what a load of ........!

I wonder who has to open their heart, those who walk blind into a trove or those who are in a ditch see the light but can't get out.

We are all the same mate, all the same, you just want to be better and if you were, your language would not be one of disregard but of dialogue, and you cannot accept dialogue because you are prejudiced.

And I know your answer to come: Oh but look I come from the US where everyone is equal tatt radirara.......etc..... Which brings me to the point of what wastafarian was saying in his post, please stop criticising others when you cannot clean up in front of your own house.

Only kings seem to befit your mental realm, the people don't.

Hence spoke Zaratoustra......

You can live in your ignorance, but you can never see it, like others see you.

gccpro

27th Jul 2005, 11:42

Does anyone mention the christian and conservative organisations, asking to expell all muslims from the west? It happens daily

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/2001/0904kelly.htm (http://)

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/opinion/12206162.htm (http://)

http://english.daralhayat.com/opinion/OPED/07-2005/Article-20050725-4ea52e56-c0a8-10ed-00ed-f4c8529f51db/story.html (http://)

But it does not make the news like the heading of this topic.

I dont think anyone read the link of AMX 10s post earlier?

THE DISADVANTAGE OF COLLECTIVE IGNORANCE
Ariel A. Roth
Origins 23(1):3-5 (1996).

EDITORIAL

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

World War II was a monstrous event. The most dominant figure was Adolf Hitler, who by persuasion and military power gained control of much of Western Europe. In persuading friend and foe of his worthy motives, .In persuading friend and foe of his worthy motives, Hitler had a powerful ally in his friend Dr. Joseph Goebbels, who became his Minister for Propaganda and Public Enlightenment.

Goebbels had a lavish lifestyle, including fancy homes which he could ill afford. However, one of his representatives explained to newsmen that the Minister was really an extremely modest man who put up with the inconveniences of such an opulent life because of the needs of his official position. Using his persuasive talents, Goebbels was effective in convincing France, England, and the United States that, regardless of appearances, Hitler's actual goal was to control Bolshevik expansion from the east. Goebbels' craftiness is reflected in one of his often-quoted statements: "We can do without butter, but, despite all our love of peace, not without arms. One cannot shoot with butter but with guns." His approach to conquering a country was to first establish a friendly neighborly relationship with the country. After this relationship was firmly established, a program of criticizing the policies and leaders of the country was begun. This was followed by threats of violence and of the need for the people to get rid of their leaders and to capitulate to his demands. The last stage was to allow deliberate confusion to grow, followed by invasion and taking control of the nation's radio stations.
Eventually, after many conquests, the tide of World War II started changing, and conditions went from bad to worse for Hitler. Many of his associates, perceiving unquestionable defeat, deserted him. Finally Hitler and his wife, whom he had just married the day before, along with Goebbels, his wife and their six children, all took their lives in an underground bunker in Berlin as the Russians were overtaking the city. Despite this tragic ending, the success of Hitler and Goebbels, which had lasted for a number of years, remains as one of the puzzling events of human history. How could the stratagems that led to plunder and mass murder be justified and engender the loyally that they did? A significant factor in that success was Goebbels' crafty promotional endeavors which took advantage of the pervasive ignorance of humanity.
On a less dramatic scale, but more insidious in its effects, a similar problem exists when experts on a given subject are instructing laypersons. Typical settings would be the public lecture hall, the classroom, the convention hall, or the church. There the lecturers or teachers are at an advantage over their audience, because they are much better prepared and know, or should know, much more than anyone else in the audience about the topic under discussion. Often the listeners have the same philosophical "flavor" as the speakers, because they have come to hear about a subject they are already interested in, or they want to have their worldview affirmed. In the classroom the instruction can reflect a particular political, nationalistic, or religious viewpoint. The type of books and journal articles emphasized can stimulate a particular bias that the innocent reader does not recognize. With the specialist-laymen arrangement, the eagerness of the laymen to learn and the enthusiasm of the specialist to promote a particular view can generate a not-so-healthy synergistic enthusiasm in which the expert takes advantage of the ignorance of the listener. In life we are too often at the mercy of the experts whose credentials may be impressive, but whose integrity, wisdom, and knowledge remain unevaluated by the listener.

Our worldview, or as some prefer to call it, our personal basic philosophy or religion, usually extends beyond simple facts as we address the more complex questions such as the meaning of existence and the ensuing implications about life beyond the grave. These deeper, complex and extremely important questions are easily influenced by the pronouncements of experts, and because of this they especially need to be sheltered from the pitfalls of collective ignorance. The fact that worldviews are complex and not as easily evaluated as simple facts makes them particularly susceptible to the innocence of collective ignorance. In this area we can easily be deceived.
It turns out that our collective ignorance has the collective disadvantage of mass delusion; whether it be the influence of Goebbels, the specialist of Madison Avenue, or a host of what we respectfully call experts. The solution is to be constantly on our guard lest advantage be taken of our ignorance, of which we all have an abundant supply.

Be independent

But this maybe above the scope of Billy and SAS

billy34-kit

27th Jul 2005, 12:32

So to be independent means, make my own decision without any external influence ( in this case pseudo-call specialist) ...it's very ironic to see you guys using a pseudo-specialist(Roth) to convince me that I'm wrong and you are right ! Just like Goebbels did.

So let me be independent, thanks for your advice!

SASless

27th Jul 2005, 13:08

I was not his helicopter pilot....sorry.

The point you missed is I have had the pleasure and benefit of dealing with Arabs and Muslims from all walks of life....from Kings to nomadic shepherds and thus have some insight of my own....formed firsthand.

If you would open you eyes,ears, and brain.....you would see that I have said nothing disparaging about Muslims or Arabs. I did however speak ill of Islamists that preach jihad, killing, and hate who perform Terrorist acts. I am sure there are many Arabs and Muslims who agree completely with what I say and would consider your comments as I do.

That being so....your opinions are just that....you are welcome to them but they are not immune from challenge just as mine are not either.

The difference dear boy....is I at least will listen to the other side and agree or disagree as I understand their positions to be. I do not understand yours and that must be apparant.
You on the other hand....find it impossible to consider there might be valid views that are not your own.

That is the sad part to this whole situation. That one can be so caught up in self indulgence that reality is as desired....not as it really is.

Engineer

27th Jul 2005, 13:18

You guys are really getting stuck in to this topic. To the point of overlooking the fact that you are not going to change it so what is the point of discussing it.

The point of view that may prevail here is that of the law of averages. In the sense that when the killing starts you may be lucky not to be in that spot at that time. Good luck :ok:

AMX10

27th Jul 2005, 13:39

Ah please!, Condescendence is the only resort you have to make a point. Go on....

The difference dear boy....

SAS, difference of opinion is what it is all about I must hand it to you, "dear Boy" for at least acknowledging that fact.

The facts are that western press does write about the desire of some factions to rid their country of muslims, so do not detract from the original thread into personal diatribe on the essence of my character. so is the subject of this post something new?

No it is not, simply that when it is about a "terrorist, muslim, arabic" entity expressing a view like AL Jazeera does for example everyone is thrown on the bandwagon and tarnished with the same brush: "All terrorists"

Yet you come to live here, eat the bread and harvest the benefits, but will never accept or respect their opinion before shooting it down with contempt.

I am not really worried of what you think, I only think it to be my obligation to perhaps point the right direction.

Now if you have difficulties with that and cannot see beyond, it is indeed your problem and not mine.

Please remember that the age of "Saheb" Old boy is gone.

Now the reason of the links that I have posted isn't to prove you wrong, on the contrary but to show how right you are in your opinion about Arabs and muslims in General, and behind that mask of "I have met and seen kings and peasants" lies the ubiquitous colonial spirit of Justice blinded within her own interpretation of others' opinions and facts.

And finally, I do support my findings with supporting documents, where are yours? Because apart from the twisted regret that colonialism is gone, I do not see anything factual past a sorry rethoric.

You have your modern day hitler, live with it, but that does not mean we have to too.

Bye bye old boy

Glorified Donkey

27th Jul 2005, 14:33

I have yet to have any problems with Arabs, especially Muslim Arabs. Overall good people, very hospitable and outgoing everywhere I go. I think its really our attitudes now theirs. If you go into their country showing no respect to their culture and look like an ignorant westerner then of course they are going to hate you.

I think the biggest problem is not the Arabs but the media, they blow everything out of proportion and twist the stories to make them look so terrible because as they will tell you theres no news like bad news. I mean why would you tell the world that your country flushed a Quran down the toilet??? You must be out of your mind. Thats why they hate the west! We are ignorant Capitalists who will kill for money because thats more important than our families.

The Muslims are worried we will bring that kind of life to their homelands and they dont want that.

SASless

27th Jul 2005, 15:09

Bloggers law held as conventional wisdom is that one who first brings Hitler into the discussion has lost.....seems appropriate here.

AMX10

27th Jul 2005, 15:22

SAS,

That is the easy way out, Hitler, no Hitler what is happening today is no different and if we were to ignore the past because one name is deemed unacceptable, than the history of this world has no meaning and no reference, and our objective aimless.

Say it for what it is and not what it is not, the terrible consequence of the shoa is something we all live it is not the property of one people or kind, like human rights are not the property of the west but the basic right deserved by each and every individual on the face of this planet and that includes dignity that is often forfeited for the sake of individual interests.

Easy to pull out by saying the first we who pronouces the name ..........

Get a life, you have not countered any of the postings that refute your state of mind with a logical statement, but you are quick to hide when confronted with the truth.

Glorified Donkey

27th Jul 2005, 16:34

Ok...where exactly is this topic going because we went from a Islamic Web Site warning about attacks to Hitler. Leave it to an American to screw everything up :p

montys ex teaboy

27th Jul 2005, 17:05

Bombs and traffic jams

Hope I am wrong about this but when the first bomb goes off, there will be a traffic jam alright, full of expats high tailing it outa there.

It is not a question of if but when. It's the reality of the world we live in now.

AMX10

27th Jul 2005, 18:33

The day that happens, Dubai is finished, now we might disagree and have different opinions, but one thing we agree on is that the longer we stay here the better off we are, or somwhere around that idea.

Payscale

28th Jul 2005, 05:31

AMX

That just about the only thing you have said, that makes sense on this thread.

Otherwise just poiltical rants.

Keep politics and religion apart. Mixed they become explosive.

Fubaar

28th Jul 2005, 09:10

The day that happens, Dubai is finished, now we might disagree and have different opinionsI disagree and have a different opinion.

Should an attack occur, Dubai will be like any other expat-dominated city or state. Many, particularly expat women and children, will leave - temporarily. Many - probably most, (but granted, not all) - of the men will stay, because they have to earn a living. Recruiting managers will have a bit more trouble finding candidates, but they'll either up the pay rates to attract enough or look for candidates from areas they might not usually look. And for those not personally affected, life will go on, perhaps not quite as pleasantly as before.

Some tourists will stay away, but, unless there are follow up attacks, they'll be back if the prices are right. Look at Egypt if you don't believe that. Let's face it, unless the attack is on a tourist hotel, how many tourits in Dubai would even be aware something had happened?

Someone's said it already - it's probably not to the (what do we called them?) the bomb setters' interests to cause themselves any problems this close to "home". Unless the local status quo changes in some way (always a possibility), I think the professionals will steer clear of making any problems for themselves in Dubai. (I wish I was so confident of the young hot heads worrying about consequences.)

Not wnating to make light of a very serious matter, but have you considered that maybe they've been at it already for some time and nobody's noticed? (I mean terrorising the expats.) Let's face it - Dubai residents face a never ending succession of people hell bent on committing suicide daily on Shk Zayed Road.

DPWN

28th Jul 2005, 09:15

I am interested to see this topic on an aviation forum.

So far the topic as it is all based on how Muslim extremists ultimately will affect the quality of life and security of western expats who live as guests in Muslim countries. It is apparent to me that some (not all) of those posting in this topic have no idea of the Islamic values that make up what is a very peace loving and pious way of life.

The majority of Muslims pray, give charity to the poor every month, live a pure way of life, have firm family values, and importantly don't want to offend or harm anyone. I know many Christians who fail to achieve any of the above.

Having looked at the threads i notice one issue has failed to be mentioned.

On a daily basis the number of Muslims killed by Muslim extremists is increasing alarmingly but all you hear about are the few westerners who are, unfortunately, unlucky enough to fall victim to the few anti west attacks. There was wall to wall coverage of the London bombings and, quite rightly, outcry regarding the attack. However the numerous (over 100) Iraqi Muslims killed (by a Muslim!) during this period received no coverage in the UK. Does this mean the life of a Muslim is less valuable than that of a westerner? Obviously not, but in the west media it is definitely less news worthy.

Please remember that the Muslim extremist is no longer Muslim once he refuses to follow the true teachings of Islam. They are only Muslim in name. E.g. it is a sin for a Muslim to commit suicide so this going to heaven with x amount of virgin’s thing is a myth. A lot of the attacks are carried out by young impressionable people who are misled by extremist groups who are simply criminals using religion to base their rationale. Ask yourself this, what would it take for a so called Muslim to blow himself up to kill other innocent Muslims and what would it achieve?

If the same bomber was to divert his attack to a western target there would be many opinions as to why and what it achieved. This is because westerners perceive that Muslims are out to get them due to various reasons. I remember speaking to a US serviceman in Iraq who views were that Muslims don't like America because the Americans have everything (like in the movies) and the Muslims don't. Believe me the Muslims don't envy the west at all and are happy with what they have got. They see the west as ungodly and are happy to live as they are. I know many Iraqi Muslims living outisde Iraq who are just waiting for the chance to return home even though the qualitiy of life will be less.

Remember this, it is not a Muslim vs west issue. It is a criminal organization vs the world issue.

To all of you, life is a lottery. Whether you get hurt in a bomb attack or hit by a bus, it is all fated. Live a normal life and take everyday as it comes. Also use common sense and you will reduce the chance of witnessing or falling victim to an attack.
If we are continually worried about attacks then it means the terrorist are winning a battle but not necessarily the war. Don't give them anything including wasted space on aviation forums

To everyone of all faiths, stay safe.

AMX10

28th Jul 2005, 10:12

DPWN;

Thank you for an enlightening appercu.

I will agree that the issue is about crime vs the world and not Islam vs the west, the latter being a creation to impose a dogma on a western population that is often ill at ease with something they do not know. (This is not criticism of the people, but of those in government posts who regulate media and impose curriculums to suit their own agenda)

Had western media been more pragmatic, we would not have raised any of these issues, because they would have had no reason to exist in the first place. However the contrary has shown that the gap is getting wider and the ignorance is often counterest with unfounded patronising.

Boys, Girls, we are in an industry that depends very much on a non fallible security apparatus, if it were to fail tthe risks that we would be out of a job are immense and would snowball into other regions just as they had for 9-11.

However before we impose a view of who is doing what there is no good or bad, because we are all fighting the same evil and it is not Islam, it is rather crime.

Criminals exist as we know in all walks of life and although we should not mix (I agree with someone else's post above) we need to be in a context in which everyone understands what they are trying to say and not associate names and religions with an adjective that is inadequately placed and the result of an ongoing crusade by western media.

Please do read the link in regards to the research by Prof Roth and you will see clearer what I am trying to say.

Peace to all and keep the thread going it's interesting that we get theis broad and wide scope of culture and beliefs, perhaps some politicians should use this example before making anymore blatant statements about religions and culture. (e.g. the war of cultures, Berlusconi)

Omark44

28th Jul 2005, 11:10

A sensible post DPWN but I think you are wrong in saying that western media ignored the deaths in Iraq that took place at the same time as the London Bombings.

I was in London at the time and I know that the day to day events in Iraq, including the shocking death toll was regularly reported on the BBC and in the broadsheet newspapers.

I also noticed on the many interviews with the UK Muslim leaders that within twenty four hours they were refusing to accept any blame and trying to turn it around and blame it on the UK's foreign policy or anything else they could think of except themselves.

AMX10, you sound very much like a totally brainwashed Iranian I once knew!;)

AMX10

28th Jul 2005, 11:52

Dear Omark44;

Thank you for taking the time to post on our favourite subject.

I do not mean to disappoint you, but I am not related to Ayatollah Assahollah, although I do think, that your association of thoughts could be jeopordised by the sheer eloquence of my posts.

I certainly hope that your brainwashed Iranian friend is doing well and is happy with many friends. Could yyou specify in which direction he was brainwashed, and if it was in the direction of the hair or opposite as this tends to affect the impression he may have left on you and others, and I might know him after all.

We will endeavour however to keep these posts going.
Wahed wahed:8 :ok:

Did your Iranian friend look like this?
http://theseoultimes.com/ST/db2/images/676-20040628123915.jpg

FlyingCroc

28th Jul 2005, 12:14

I agree with Fuubar, AMX10 that nothing will happen. A terror attack could happen anywhere, London, Madrid, Egypt, it even happened in Qatar. And it is interesting how the British and US government immediatley blame muslims and Al Qaida for everything without first conducting a proper criminal investigation. As there a re many unsolved facts in the London bombing the media still focuses on suicide bombers and the police is free to shoot and kill innocent people in the streets of London.

The posting of the Al Qaida Islamic website points always back to familiar places in England or the USA. Why not Karachi or Tehran?

http://www.sofir.org/sarchives/004190.php#back9

Note the Qalaah name and [email protected] email address which we have previously linked to Al-Fagih via the whois information for the zuair domains.

The following companies are involved in providing services to Mr. Al-Fagih:

United States - web servers:
Everyone's Internet, Houston, TX

Canada - domain name registrar:
Tucows, Inc., Toronto, ON

United Kingdom - domain name registration service:
PIPEX Communications Hosting Ltd (dba 123-reg.co.uk), Nottingham

Germany - email for Al-Fagih:
Lycos Europe GmbH, Gutersloh

AMX10

28th Jul 2005, 12:25

Flying croc,

you are well informed, who are these people?

Who supports them?

What do we know of them?

Who else are they associated with?

boofta

28th Jul 2005, 14:41

Yes
Not all Muslims are terrorists
But
All terrorists are Muslims

AMF

28th Jul 2005, 19:50

The Arab/Muslim world sat by and didn't band together to eliminate the biggest killer of Muslims since Tamerlane.....Saddam Hussein. In fact, deposing such a homicidal tyrant now earns one the title of "Nazi" (from those with no sense of irony or grasp of history to know Baathism was patterned in large part on National Socialism). Immediately after the Iraqi army's destruction, the journalistic focus became about how the ease with which it was defeated embarrassed the rest of Arab world. This loss of face in "the Arab street" became more important than a genocidal dictator being removed from power, and the press simply fed that notion.

So it's foolish to think there will be any serious, concentrated attempt from that same quarter to squelch Islmamic fanaticism that kills far fewer Muslims than Saddam, and more Westerners in the course of it's crusade. The insurgency in Iraq as well has more to do with "saving-face" and unchecked macho-stupidity that it does any coherent political aim. "Shoot an American, brag to your friends. Blow yourself up with a street full of Iraqi kids, your friends will say you went to heaven". Assigning deeper motivations or intelligence to such morons is a mistake.

Besides, as a twenty-something male it's far more fun to stay out all night with your friends packing AK's and building bombs than get up early, grab a broom and clean up rubble, or actually go to work.

Apologists such are yourself, AMX10, are more concerned with managing the image of Islam through deflection and whitewashing....asserting we're dealing with nothings more than crime or "criminals".....than idealogical extremists spawned within societal groups obsessed with it's fundamentalism and death, and acting on that obsession.

Listening to you, you'd think that mosques were going up in flames and Muslims hung from every street corner lampost by vigilante groups running wild. If the Western media was the anti-Muslim propoganda machine you'd like everyone to believe it is...controlling everyone's thoughts....then they would be. Last time I checked, that wasn't happening.

And if Guantanamo were a Nazi concentration camp, they would have gassed or machine-gunned everyone held there within the first few days or weeks.

Fitzcarraldo

29th Jul 2005, 01:37

Please remember that the Muslim extremist is no longer Muslim once he refuses to follow the true teachings of Islam. They are only Muslim in name. E.g. it is a sin for a Muslim to commit suicide so this going to heaven with x amount of virgin’s thing is a myth. A lot of the attacks are carried out by young impressionable people who are misled by extremist groups who are simply criminals using religion to base their rationale. Ask yourself this, what would it take for a so called Muslim to blow himself up to kill other innocent Muslims and what would it achieve?
Thats what we'd all like to believe DPW, but the facts aren't stacking up in your favour. If OBL is such a heretic, why is he so revered by the average muslim in the street?
Don't try to deny the fact, I'd rather hear you explain it.

GotTheTshirt

29th Jul 2005, 01:54

As an older person who has worked in many countries I think the post of DPWN is well balanced. As someone who has many Muslim friends I agree with his sentiments.
One of the problems is that so many Americans think that terrorism started on 9/11.
Please take a look at the Red Brigade, Red Army Faction, IRA and see some of the terrorist problem that the rest of the world has faced well before 9/11 that was nothing to do with Muslims.

Terrorists are terrorists and as DPWN says they are just criminals exactly the same as the guy that holds up a liquor store for money.
The US thinks that by throwing billions of dollars at the TSA they will contain the problem. Sadly a myth. The US government pays $9 for every air passenger and 5 cents for every transit
( Rail/metro) passenger, so guess where the next target will be.
Lets face it this was an easy target in London.
I watched the CNN woman in London just after the bombings ( Annapour?) saying "the questions that the British Governement will be asked is how could this have happend so soon after the July 7 bombings"
I dont know if she was born stupid or had lessons for her journalism career.
Does she know how many people use the tube in rush hour ?
Should we search everybody ?

Then we have the Civil Liberties Groups in New York going to court over the very idea that people on the transit should be searched to see if they are carring a bomb !!

I see threads on prune saying " don't tell the terrorists the hi jack transponder codes " Give me a break. This is the first mistake to treat these people as stupid !
The guy that is the suicide bomber is not the brains behind this !
On the 9/11 how many people with a few hours on light aircraft could fly an airliner with the precision that those guys did ?

Lets face it, smart as you are could you convince some guy to go and strap a bomb to himself and blow up a bank and let you walk in and take the money I dont think so.

Sadly I dont know what the answer is, I do know that security is a state of mind and not Government decrees.
All one can do is be aware of the dangers and stay vigilant. The rest of it as our Muslim friends say is "inshalllah"

Hazrail

29th Jul 2005, 02:52

Got the t-shirt

Funny you should mention the statement made by Amanpour, but you should know that she was brought up in the middle east, Dubai to be exact and I am surprised as well to hear that statement coming out of her mouth, could it be editorial guidelines?

http://www.scripting.com/images/2001/11/17/amanpour.jpg

AMX10

29th Jul 2005, 03:07

AMF's deep reflection although much appreciated seems to stutter on the same issues raised by this post.

Who are the terrorists?
What does Islam have to do with it?
What is the link?

It does not answer them yet widens the grey area that everyone is trying to avoid.

As to the Iraqi crisis, AMF tries to whitewash US involvement in the crisis again in the names of democracy and freedom, portraying the Arab or Muslim Layman as an ignorant sod with no other satisfaction than seeing Westerners killed.

What he fails to say is that the Americans went into to Iraq to control it, and what they have done is lost control of the whole situation, not to blame the US for today's ills, but the fact that they are out of control in Iraq, does not reassure me one bit.

To add insult to injury, the Americans are now finding every possible excuse to justify their failure, e.g. foreign insurgents, Al qaeda etc...

Now to refresh AMF's mind, I will ask one question:

Why did everyone oppose intervention into IRAQ,
simply because we wanted to avoid the crisis that we are currently living, and Saddam then, contained is better than this situation everyone has to suffer as a consequence.

So it is not the US invasion as such, its the destablisation of the region that is now resulting in bonafide retaliation.
Why bonafide?
Is it because they are American, chrisitan, no but rather because they have invaded, killed and maimed.

Why would an Iraqi not be entitled to his own pride or justice or is that also only the property of the west too.

AMF could not be further from the mark and I do hope that time will certainly give him the chance to reflect on his statements and perhaps join us by enlightening us further rather than dim us with his sarcastic remarks on how Arabs should be.

I quote him below:

Apologists such are yourself, AMX10, are more concerned with managing the image of Islam through deflection and whitewashing

Islam does not require me to manage its image mate, its a religion that is Iconless, because it's faith relies on universal science vs. belief.

He ends his post by saying:

If the Western media was the anti-Muslim propoganda machine you'd like everyone to believe it is...controlling everyone's thoughts

We have to date not seen proof of WMDs everyone has determined as the cause to the invasion, and AMF further ties himself in controversy by adding from those with no sense of irony or grasp of history to know Baathism was patterned in large part on National Socialism

the link between Saddam and Al qaeda is henceforth established when Bathism and NAZIS are mentionned.

AMF cannot even reason in a short paragraph without contradicting himself

And if Guantanamo were a Nazi concentration camp, they would have gassed or machine-gunned everyone held there within the first few days or weeks.

So in his opinion Guantanamo is right.

Get a life mate wake up to reality and stop daydreaming!

We lived with Saddam but at least we knew how close we could get to him and avoided making the mistakes that everyone is making now. Western media is lying do not deny that fact, give me facts that they have given us since the start of this conflict, WMD's where are they?

So stop the BS mate and get on!! Don't think we can be fooled by two smartly placed words, I sincerely recommend a little history 101, before you post anything else.

superman_32

29th Jul 2005, 07:08

ÝÞÏ äÔÑ ãæÞÚ ÔÈßÉ "ÈáæãÈíÑÛ" Bloomberg ÇáÅÎÈÇÑí ãÞÇáÇ Íæá ÈíÇä ãÌåæá ÇáãÕÏÑ ÞÇã ÈäÔÑå Ýí ÇáÓÞíÝÉ ÇáÚÖæ ÇáãÓãì (ÇáÈÑÇÁ Çáãßí) æíåÏÏ Ýíå ÏæáÉ ÇáÅãÇÑÇÊ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ ÇáãÊÍÏÉ ¡ æíØáÈ Ýíå ÈØÑÏ ÛíÑ ÇáãÓáãíä .
æäÍä ãä ãäØáÞ ÊæÖíÍ ÇáÑÄíÉ ááÌãíÚ ¡ æÊÈíÇä ÇáÍÞíÞÉ ¡ æÍÊì áÇ íÊÍæá ÇáÃãÑ Åáì ÒæÈÚÉ ÅÚáÇãíÉ ßãÇ ÊÑíÏ áå ÈÚÖ ÇáãæÇÞÚ ÇáÅÚáÇãíÉ ÇáãÛÑÖÉ ¡ äÄßÏ Èßá ÞæÉ ÃääÇ áÇ äÚÑÝ ãÕÏÑ åÐÇ ÇáÈíÇä æÃääÇ ÖÏ åÐå ÇáããÇÑÓÇÊ æÇáÈíÇäÇÊ ÇáãÛÑÖÉ ÇáãÌåæáÉ ¡ æÃä ÇáÈíÇä Êã æÖÚå ãä ãßÇä ÏÎæá ÃÌäÈí ¡ Ãí Ãäå ãä ÎÇÑÌ ÇáÏæá ÇáÚÑÈíÉ ¡ æäÚÊÞÏ ÈæÌæÏ ÎÏÇÚ æÊÖáíá æãßÑ æÑÇÁ æÖÚ åÐÇ ÇáÈíÇä Ýí ÇáÓÞíÝÉ .

This is an extract from the web site, which denies attribution to the clamed news.

Cheers.
http://www.alsakifah.org/vb/index.php

loc22550

29th Jul 2005, 08:43

What happens in london or egypt recently is just barbaric terrorism,.They are absolutly no excuse for that.
The "iraq excuse" is just ridiculous. If those people as they pretend are against the war in iraq, why they don´t do there to fight american or english soldiers.. , this will make sense...instead of killing innocent people who have nothing to do with this!

Concerning Qatar and the fact they may have bought their safety by paying Al Qaida... i can berely believe it, but i heard it before as well....if it´s true, how can a country like qatar still dare to be call a muslim country..by sponsoring terrorist organisation?
Not really good for the image....??

AMX10

29th Jul 2005, 09:39

Loc22550

What a load of nonsense, go to Iraq to fight the allied forces for what?

It is said that they are there to set up the new Iraq not to fight a war.

Or perhaps we should call it a war now, shall we?

Your thinking is a reflection of the small mindedness of WASP think tanks, the same generating the aggressive policies leading to the invasion of IRAQ.

You also deem it natural to attack Iraq as if it was an obligation of the US government to rid us of a dictator, where do you get your common sense from, kaballah class, or zionism? Why don't you rid the arab world of the other dictators, mubarak, abdallah, gaddafi, Al Ali, the GCC rulers or is it different stop this multi standard indoctrinationmeant for the ignorants of the corn belt.

The average Arab/Muslim in the street speaks 2 languages and is more cultured than your average westerner who still thinks that Arabs live in Shanti, what is it with your minds are you really blind?
..
"........If you think this war is wrong you should go fight the US in Iraq........." where have you landed from with a statement like that, I bet you can't even name the 52 states making up the US and you want to come and lecture us on how we should live and greet you as saviors.

You are only here for the money and if anything is of interest to you it is because you are afraid for your life, that in your opinion is worth more than that of an Arab.

How would you feel if Iraqis invaded california and tried to impose their rule there, would you be happy about it? Or shall we call you freedom fighters then?

The middle east is paying for specialised labour to come in, but not for anyone to tell us how to live if we wnated that we would have asked, thank you.

What does the west have to bring the middle East? War, Crime, drugs, decadence, with the seven deadly sins.

Why is it that everyone who comes to the middle east like to tell middle easterners how to live their life and their faith, do muslims and arabs tell the west how to live theirs?

And finally I will also add the cherry on the cake to everyone reading this post, Anti-semitism applies to all semit people and that includes Arabs, just in case you have forgotten that Arabs are also semitic.

DPWN

29th Jul 2005, 10:55

Fitzcarraldo

You state:
If OBL is such a heretic, why is he so revered by the average muslim in the street?

Please tell me where you got this information about Osama Bin Laden being so revered and please tell me what makes up the "average Muslim on the street"?

Can explain that one to me because i don't know the answer to that one?

Perhaps you are mixing with extremists who are pretending to be Muslims or did it say so on an Extremist website perhaps??

You are right that Osama Bin Laden is a heretic being a non Muslim who has declared that he doesn't believe in any god or the teachings of Mohammad. But i don't think he is revered by the average Muslim on the street. The Muslims i live and work with don't actually hold him in high regard and despise the man for creating the anti-Muslim culture that we are seeing today.

I see some threads referring to Saddam Hussein which i would like to add to. I do know many Iraqi Muslims who still hold Saddam in high regard. Despite all the atrocities that he did (which were many) he provided those in the cities with a high standard of living. Ok we all know he persecuted the Shia and Kurds in the later part of his dictatorship and the Sunni population had an easier time but as a nation as a whole things improved when he first came to power. I personally think he is a criminal who will pay for his crimes but consider the "average Iraqi Muslim on the street".
Saddam increased the literacy rate in children, provided state funded education for all children up to university level, state funded hospitals with excellent health care, electrical power for the major cities, telecommunication provision, clean water, jobs for life which covered their social security etc, security through an active police force and army etc. etc. (security through fear i might add)

Now consider an "average Iraqi on the street" who has no longer worked or received funding from the Iraqi Government since the downfall of the Baath Party (support which reduced due to the UN sanctions between the wars). He may have been in the army or other services which were disbanded by the US Government post OIF creating over half a million unemployed in one day. Consider also the current lack of schooling, lack of jobs, lack of good communications, lack of regular electricity, lack of water, and severe lack of security for the guy on the street.

This is still the case in Baghdad now over 2 years after the war ceased. Life is not good. If there is any anti US feeling here it is because things have not improved as promised and the US failed to make an effective post war rebuilding plan which has made a complete shambles of the OIF mission. Iraqis who are forced to work for western companies just to get any source of income fear for their lives on a daily basis. There is no effective security on the streets and the extremists regular set up road blocks on street corners and immediately execute those Iraqis who are found to be working for "the enemy".

I hope some of you can see why many Iraqis will state that "things were better under Saddam". A westerner may find this statement beyond belief after all that has been done for them by the coalition and maybe put it down to brainwashing under the Baath regime. However good intentions by the coalition do not provide clean water or put food on the table or allow you to walk down the street in safety.

This is a situation now but don't ignore the bigger picture with the anti west feeling caused by the anti-semitism that has been lying under the surface for years. Extremist (not necessarily Muslims) have been waiting for years for a chance to get back at the west and the Muslim-Jewish conflict will always be a main justification for anti west feeling whether we like it or not.

Being English i have seen how the British Government dealt with the IRA and the strict rules of engagement enforced to reduce the number of civilian casualties etc. The Isrealis have almost no limits on their rules of engagement.
If a British Soldier was to shoot and kill a 10 year old because he was throwing rocks at a tank there would be condemnation.

However if it happens on the west bank (and it does) there is no condemnation. An F15 can drop a guided bomb onto a terrorist's car at a road junction outside a school killing innocent people in the traffic queue and injuring children in the playground. Isreal make a statement stating the collateral damage was necessary but there is no real condemnation. The F15, the bomb and the pilot have all got made in the USA written on them.

The US is restricted in its actions by the controlling Jewish factor in its politics. The Christian bible belt in the US makes up a huge percentage of the potential votes that will be cast in any election and add this to the large Jewish population who have a strong influence in finance, law and politics. The US Christians support the Jewish in their fight against anti-semitism whole heartedly and any government who would show support for the Palestinian cause would not get voted into office.

There is no simple answer for discovering the views of the "average Muslim on the street". There is a long political history to all of this and it is a political minefield. You need to have an understanding of this history as well as Islam and their culture before know what the views of Muslims actually are. I don't know what the average Muslim is thinking because i don't fully understand these three elements. Also bear in mind that Muslims come from different cultures. OBL gets much of his support from Pakistani followers which are very different from Arab Muslims. You don't often get many suicide bombers from Qatar, Bahrain or Kuwait etc. A large number are in fact Syrian and you note that the London bombing involved those with links to Pakistan. Muslims are all very different but are all tarred with the same brush and would be persecuted equally. A Pakistani Shia extremist may attack a bus in London but an anti Islamic backlash may persecute a Sunni Muslim from Kuwait who has absolutely nothing in common with the extremist other than Islam.

I wish to point out that i am not anti-semitic or anti-Christian and repsect all faiths equally and that all the above is my opinion only. It may give an insight as to what is going on in the real world, watching local arab tv, not CNN or even Al Jazera, tends to do that or you may dismiss it as a load of old tosh. Having lived in Iraq for a few years i can tell you that most of what is in the news is b*ull****. The media have to sell a story and they all get the same briefs so they add there little titbits of information which normally is based on hear say through a contact of a contact and quickly becomes chinese whispers. The news reports in Iraq would always differ to what we knew was actually happening through the reports we would get from official sources. We all have views to share but those based on real experiences will always be more valuable and productive than those based on the news reports or internet.

As a footnote i would like to re-iterate this. Despite all that has happened to Muslims they may feel some hatred to the US but i know this much. The "average Muslim on the street" doesn't want to "kill an American". They don't want to hurt anyone, they just want to live a normal and safe life. If everyone adding to this forum had the chance to sit with old boy Muslims in a typical souk, drinking tea and smoking shesha and putting the world to rights through a Muslim's eyes i am sure everone would see them in a different light and show more understanding and perhaps see them as the victims too.

barffmeister

29th Jul 2005, 11:26

Hitler invaded Europe - people resisted - who won the war eventually?

Vietnam , Somalia . Beirut etc ....say no more!

Bush jr invades Iraq - people are resisting - biggest American f :mad: p ever, after Vietnam. Getting close now to repeating said history.

Unless the fuel given to wouldbe bombers are taken away ,ie the Iraq invation cockup or if somebody can openly explain to them that you are not going to heaven to have endless sex , but will be poked by the Devil with a firery rod up your arse every minute for eternity - nothing will change.

Who's fueling the real fire then? Duh !!

Go Hillary - only tree years left.

AMX10

29th Jul 2005, 11:40

7 virgins?

Just imagine how bad it is with one let alone 7, there would be no Arabs left, they would have all committed suicide by the time they reach the second one.

Pontious

29th Jul 2005, 14:09

AMX10

Islamic Fundamentalists tried to bring down the WTC in New York and there was no big US "Hammer cracking a nut" reaction fron the US' was there? Just the arrests of a few perpetrators and inciters.

In addition do you recall there was an attack that was thwarted against LAX around the start of the millenium? That resulted in a few individual arrests and convictions.

The bombing of US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania resulted in a limited strike against OBL, his assets and his shelterers in Afghanistan.

The US wants a stable, peaceful Iraq built on solid foundations NOW so that it doesn't have to come back again and again and again to sort the mess out.

As for the recent attacks and arrests in the UK, they were unwelcome but long overdue. Personally I'd give any Police/Security services far greater powers regarding surveillance, stop and search, detention and shoot-to-kill but the more effective cure has to come from within the Muslim communities around the world, not just in the US,UK, Europe or the UAE otherwise if the attacks on Christians, Jews and Hindu communities by Islamic Fundamentalists continues then the backlash will harm mainly innocent Muslims and seriously disrupt those economies so heavily dependant upon expat skills, experience, expertise and labour.

Patience and tolerance are finite commodities.

loc22550

29th Jul 2005, 14:21

Amx 10,

Relax, take a deap breath, and come back with a mature post.
Don´t transform my post and invent your own story....
cheers.

amx 10, mentioning i said " If you think this war is wrong you should go fight us in iraq...." no really AMX10... i don´t even want to answer this crap, your imagination is working hard!

AMX10

29th Jul 2005, 15:22

HI Pontious;

Terrorism in my knowledge is crime.

Calling a terrorist or a criminal a muslim, Islamic terrorist is wrong.

Are IRA terrorist catholic? Yes they are but they are not called Catholic/christian terorists.

I have no doubt that your statements about the who is who in the trrerrorist world is right, it is not however a clear end in itself.
There are issues that relate to the credibility of the western media in general, of the security agencies that are unsolved. It is very fine to accuse and point the finger, who says that these people speak in the name of Islam? I do not see their statements as bonafide and credible as easy as it may seem and salutary for intelligence agencies who just want to come off the bandwagon and say that they are doing the work they are supposed to.

Pontious, where are the WMD's, where is the link between AL qaeda and Baath.

Where we live in the Arab world, the security is tighter than anywhere in the west, most Arabic nations are police states, and all muslim fundamentalists in the 80's were given assylum status in the UK, US etc.... Today everyone is blaming the Muslim world and Arabs, where is this logic? Why did these governments welcome them in the first place.

I am not in the business of defending terrorists or criminals, there are people I will never speak to because of their narrow views and they come from all corners of this world, don't be one of them.

Look, listen and seek knowledge prior to retracting into WTC events in 94, and embassy bombings, there is something going on that is much bigger and if you are not analytical in your survey of media exposure, you wont see much beyond the easy little ranting that gives easy answers to problems that are much bigger.

Whatever arrests in my opinion that were made then were welcome but why did it stop there? who is to blame, Arabs? What aboutr these intelligence agencies are they doing their jobs?

Why always blame the arabs and muslims for events that are the realm of crime and not religion.

billy34-kit

29th Jul 2005, 17:57

AMX10
I give you a little exercise to do, take a world map, do some little research to find where are the hot spot in this planet...then you will understand...............and don't forget Sudan please! I know everybody in the middle east like to keep it quiet about this genocide run by arabs!
I can't wait to see your excuse!!

AMX10

29th Jul 2005, 20:05

Ring, Ring, Ring..........Hellllllloloooo, Billy it's time to take you fix!:E

Unfortunately, ignorance is not something you buy, but you can carry it a long way! (This is my quote, not Billy's in case anyone is mistaken)

Money is not enough for Billy and so he states, in blistering scientific post, forgetting the current situation and disregarding it, with Iraqi civilians dying everyday, Israel supported without condition in their oppression of Palestinians and this is what he has to say :

I know everybody in the middle east like to keep it quiet about this genocide run by arabs!

And then he adds to this by starting his post with:

take a world map, do some little research to find where are the hot spot in this planet...then you will understand...............and don't forget Sudan please!

Is he really on planet earth?

I recommend another exercise take a globe ( rotating one), flip it so it turns really fast, point your index in the air, then stick it all the way to your elbow in your right eye, and tell me what you see!

Come to Dubai if you can see it on the map , I''ll give you directions to the American hospital where you can have your weeballs relieved obviously your quest for money has taken its toll on you.

Difference between you and me is that we don't even compare, so go look for me in a busy intersection at midday on foot and see if I am there, in short GPIT, or Go Play In Traffic. And it sounds better than SPIT an acronym that I can also explain if you wish.

With Love AMX11
:8 :8 :8 :8 :8

Fitzcarraldo

30th Jul 2005, 00:25

You state:
If OBL is such a heretic, why is he so revered by the average muslim in the street?

Please tell me where you got this information about Osama Bin Laden being so revered and please tell me what makes up the "average Muslim on the street"?

Perhaps you are mixing with extremists who are pretending to be Muslims or did it say so on an Extremist website perhaps??
Nope - I got it from talking to 'average muslims in the street' and from LISTENING to them. I also got it from watching average muslims on the street being interviewed - and not on FOX News either. And I realised it was certain when I saw T-Shirts for sale in Kuala Lumpur (moderate secular Malaysia!!) with OBL's picture emblazoned all over it in a heroic pose, with the burning WTC in the background, and I felt sick when I saw little kids riding their bikes around the leafy suburbs of the Malaysian capital - wearing their OBL T-Shirt.

How much evidence do you demand?

I think its disingenuous of you to deny this admiration - after all, the guy has done a lot for Islam, has he not? He struck right into the very heart of the infidel America - the persecutor of Palestine and supporter of the cursed Israelis (just quoting the usual rhetoric here by the way).
Osama is lauded in websites from here to Baghdad and back as the pious muslim who gave up his wealthy inheritance to fight against the godless Russians who invaded Afghanistan. And he DEFEATED them! What a hero! Don't try to disown him...you're talking rubbish.

Speaking of rubbish.
AMX10.
In spite of all your articulate prose and sophistry, you just revealed yourself to be a one-trick pony and as ignorant and biased as any of those you condemn.

The IRA were not a Catholic terrorist group. The ethos behind the IRA is in fact Marxism, which rejects religion. You might be familiar with Karl Marx's reference to religion as 'The Opium of the people'.
And if you need a further reminder - no IRA operation was ever carried out in the name of Jesus Christ, the Pope, the Catholic Church or anything else remotely to do with religion - you're getting confused with your muslim brothers, who like to saw peoples heads off in the name of Islam and Allah.

billy34-kit

30th Jul 2005, 02:55

what's wrong amx, UN are wrong too!

UNITED NATIONS, July 22 (AFP) - UN envoy Jan Pronk on Friday expressed cautious optimism about the situation in Sudan's western Darfur region, but urged the Khartoum government to take more forceful action to disarm Arab militias and stop rapes.

"The ceasefire seems to be kept by the parties," Pronk, the UN envoy to Sudan, told the UN Security Council, adding the African Union (AU) had helped bring more stability.

But the envoy made it clear that the situation remained delicate.

"(Government-armed) militias have not been disarmed. Arbitrary arrests and inhuman treatment of prisoners still take place," Pronk told a council debate on Sudan.

In his own report to the Security Council, UN Secretary General Kofi Annan called on Khartoum to do more "to address the disarmament of the Janjaweed (Arab militias) and other outlaw groups, which would also greatly facilitate the conclusion of a political agreement that settles the conflict in Darfur."

The UN chief also deplored the fact that recent clashes between the rebel factions "have exacerbated the difficulties faced by humanitarian organizations" in delivering aid to those who need it.

Turning to the issue of rape, Pronk said: "a new Government policy to help the victims of rape and to investigate the crimes of rape has been adopted, after long and intensive discussion with the UN, but its implementation is still deficient throughout Darfur."

The Annan report made the same point, noting that: "Sexual violence committed by soldiers, police, and Government-aligned militias remains a widespread feature of the Darfur conflict," Annan said. "Although the government has taken some action, it has not done enough to end the culture of impunity behind the widespread sexual abuse in Darfur."

Pronk for his part urged the Khartoum government to "not only arrest foot soldiers who killed and raped, but also their commanders, and their leaders who instructed them to do so."

He also underscored the need to expand the AU force in Darfur soon.

The AU plans to more than double its Darfur monitoring force to more than 7,700 by September.

An estimated 180,000 to 300,000 people have died in Darfur, with some 2.6 million civilians left homeless, since February 2003 when fighting erupted between rebels and government forces backed by local Arab militia.

salamalikum2

30th Jul 2005, 02:59

Another question for you AmX 10:

I known most of the arab world (the rest of the world as well), blame american to be present in iraq, well this is one point, But during more than 20 years when Sadam was the president in iraq, how many thousands of poor iraqis were killed, massacre, torture under this brutal dictatorship and during 20 years!!
Everybody knowns that...

Why didn´t the arab or muslim react at all to stop him to do that during all this period?????Why the arab world let him do that massacre?

Are you not feeling ashamed?:bored:

billy34-kit

30th Jul 2005, 03:29

Good with charity hum!

CHARITABLE donations to help people affected by the Asian tsunami disaster are falling into the hands of radical Islamic groups linked to terrorists in Indonesia, a leading expert on the global al-Qaeda network warned yesterday.

Relief money had become the "primary source" of income for two militant groups, including one founded by a Muslim cleric serving a prison sentence in connection with the Bali bombing in 2002 in which more than 200 people were killed.

Dr Rohan Gunaratna, head of the international centre for political violence and terrorism research at Singapore's Institute of Defence and Strategic Studies, told the Asia-Pacific Financial Crime Conference that the Boxing Day disaster had given "unprecedented opportunities for these groups to expand their areas of influence".

The UK Department For International Development (Dfid) said it was "concerned" about his comments and urged him to provide more information so it could take action if necessary. However, the Red Cross, Oxfam and Cafod aid agencies insisted that strict accounting procedures saw to it that no money given to them had fallen into the wrong hands.

Dr Gunaratna, author of the book Inside al Qaeda: Global Network of Terror, said the radical Islamic groups Mujahideen Kompak and Majelis Mujahideen Indonesia, or MMI, were moving into the Aceh region, where 130,000 people were killed and entire villages demolished by the devastating tsunami.

He told the conference, organised by banks in Singapore, that steps had to be taken to ensure that charitable donations did not go astray.

"Charities are a primary source of income for these groups," he said. "That's why there has to be more accountability in where donations go."

MMI, which has been called the Indonesian equivalent of Sinn Fein, was founded by militant cleric Abu Bakar Bashir, who is serving a 30-month jail sentence for conspiracy in the Bali bombings. Its name means the Council of Mujahideen For Islamic Law Enforcement.

The Brussels-based International Crisis Group has said Mujahideen Kompak plans to wage holy war in Indonesia.

And, according to the US-based analysts Global Security, Mujahideen Kompak has been responsible for attacks on Christians, including the nail-bombing of a church in North Jakarta during evening prayers in November 2001. Its leaders are also sometimes drawn from the infamous Indonesian terrorist group Jemaah Islamiyah.

Indonesian authorities have arrested scores of al-Qaeda-linked militants suspected of being involved in the Bali bombings, last year's attack on the Australian Embassy in Jakarta, or in the 2003 attack on the city's Marriott Hotel. But some critics still accuse the government of being soft on terrorists for fear of escalating conflicts in a land which is home to more Muslims than any other.

Dr Gunaratna said: "Indonesia must suffer more from terrorism for the people and their leaders to realise that terror is serious business and you can't flirt with terrorists."

Terrorism expert Professor David Capitanchik, formerly of Robert Gordon University, told The Scotsman that terrorist groups were known to have set up charities to act as money-laundering operations.

"Around mosques, there are lots of people standing outside with boxes asking people to give to charity," he said. "It is rare that people who donate money know exactly where it is going. Organisations banned in this country - like Hamas - raise funds like that here."

Patrick Nicholson, of Catholic aid agency Cafod, who was in Aceh in early this year and again in June, said that while radical Islamic groups had first tried to exploit the situation to whip up anti-Western feeling, they appeared to have given up.

"I would challenge him [Dr Gunaratna]. There aren't the same sort of groups [in Aceh] as you see in other parts of Indonesia," he said. "They [Islamic extremists] turned up after the tsunami and tried to get Western aid agencies kicked out.

AMX10

30th Jul 2005, 06:11

NOw why would I feel ashamed?

I have one head two arms and two legs, and am quiet capable of providing for myself and my family.

Now asking of Saddam Era reaction to the suffering experienced by the poor Iraqis, I must remind you that Iraq was the trump card the US played against the Islamic Republic of Iran during the war betwen the two nations.

Saddam, enjoyed the status of an untouchable dictator and no one in the Arab world would have seen it right or could have done anything about what happened inside his borders.

Also do not forget that although sentiment in the street did show concern for Iraqis, few Arab Nations then (and today) enjoyed any democracy.

Billy34-Kit

Stop reading batman cartoons, they are polluting your mind and that of others. None of your books are reference when it comes to factual writing. They all have an anti-Arab and anti Islamic bias to their studies.

However I will quote your scientist where he made a statement that actually shows how wrong you are in the interpretation of events in the region and answers a question I did ask in my previous posts that no one has been able to answer:

“Al-Qaeda hates the Iraqi government for the way it treated the Kurds in northern Iraq after the Gulf War. There is no reason why it should be any different now. .. Iraq has been involved with Palestinian groups such as Hamas, but not with al-Qaeda.”

Although a reference on terrorism, He is however no reference on Al Qaeda.

Please advise us when the US will go into Sudan, I'll take my camera.

Fitzcarraldo,
Thank you for your correction, the point though is they are still not termed by religion. The IRA was and still is predominantly catholic, and Marxism came in much later in their plight for freedom from the Brits. My statment although not precise perssay is still not wrong.

In spite of all your articulate prose and sophistry, you just revealed yourself to be a one-trick pony and as ignorant and biased
Well at least I do speak clearly, thank you!

Finally

Many complain at the views that I expose on this forum and I am thankful for everyone's input, I feel however that very few responses are structured or sourced for evidenced and everyone seems to be in a jamboree of good ol' wave the flag feeling.

Let me reassure you that it is not and if there is one thing that disappoints me its the lack of maturity and humour of some, regardless of the sometimes insulting and bigotted comments that are posted.

Fitzcarraldo

30th Jul 2005, 12:18

The IRA was and still is predominantly catholic Must I give you a history lesson?

I realise as a non-Irish person the whole conflict there is probably as unfathomable to you as the subtleties of the muslim nations internal love/hate relationships are to non-muslims. But it is hypocritical of you to criticise us for our 'ignorance' while you continue to display the very same ignorance when spouting about our little internal problems.

Let me explain something to you.

The modern Irish Republican movement grew out of an organisation called The United Irishmen founded in 1790 by Wolfe Tone a PROTESTANT!.

The United Irishmen was led by a protestant, and its membership was constituted from members of both religions, catholic and protestant.

Wolfe Tone led the uprising against British rule in 1798 and was executed for it.
For that reason he remains one of modern Irish Republicans greatest heroes. And a fitting one - because he was non sectarian.

While the modern Irish Republican movement drew most of its membership from deprived catholic areas it was not a CATHOLIC organisation.
Those who joined were motivated by deprivation and oppression and a desire for freedom. Not some mad aim to make the world a catholic khallifate!

The leadership of the Irish Republican movement have always been scrupulous about separating religious identity from the conflicts causes. They NEVER harangued protestants - they addressed their criticisms to Loyalism.

The whole religious element was one introduced by the British in the 1600's, who hoped that by keeping the two sides at each others throats they'd be easier to govern.

Seems you fell for that bulls**t.

I know you muslims have great difficulty in understanding the concept of separating Church from Politics - but try to get your head around this, the Republican movement is a political one, not a religious one. We can do things that way in the West.

AMX10

30th Jul 2005, 12:48

Thank you for the historic brief, so I am not wrong in saying it is predominantly Catholic, I am only aware of the part under Cromwell which I understand did not go to well and perhaps is a reminder of what is happeninng today.

Is the conflict today a war of religions?

Was Henry 8's great matter a religious cause or simply a means to control the ressources of the church, by taking possession of the dime?

I don't believe today is different, the West uses religion to impose a new vision while below it is the interest of natural ressources that is the main cause.

They can demonise any leader they wish to and mediatise how horrible he is what he does to his people all that is manipulation and we need to see beyond that.

Islam as demonised as it may be is no worse than christianity or Judaism yet today it is tarnished for the sake of creating a superior, unilaterla view of the world.

Most westerners do not see this beyond their everyday fear of who is going to be next. Easy to forget the same humanist principles that gave rise during the renaissance to the modern societies of today, when everyday you are reminded that your neighbour Mr. Ahmed who you could have known for 20 years is going to be your killer, Big Brother? Well worse Great Brother, modern day feudalism etc......

this is my point.

They NEVER harangued protestants - they addressed their criticisms to Loyalism.

No they just spit at one another, throw bottles and shoot, kill and maim but they don't harang.

I agree with you I know as much about Irsih politics as you do of Arabs and Islam.

Having said that, what impression you get of a Khalifat is remote from the reality, when most Arabs are living under oppression and dictatorial governments, most just want the ability to express their frustrations much like we are doing on this forum.

It does not speak of a Khalifate, this is exactly what medias are wrongly publicising and that I disagree with, can you imagine a Khalifate of the US, although they already have one with their pseudo christian organisations.

I do not doubt your knowledge and character, and the dialogue of knowledge is the way to understand better not the brushing without distinction. I do not care for a Khalifat and nor would you care for one.

I am not sure you would accept an Arab at your side for his/her just value, you seem to immediately reason from a perspective that is biased with mumble jumble;

How can you expect your views to be tolerated when you want to impose them on others and expect to be respected?

The difference is that I read while you jump as soon as you see a new posting from AMX.

Call me AMZ while you are at it, that way you can associate me with a famous Bulgarian motorcycle brand that never evolved beyond the 2 stroke stage.

Fitzcarraldo

30th Jul 2005, 13:36

The difference is that I read while you jump as soon as you see a new posting from AMX.
You talk to me, I talk to you.
Its called a DIALOGUE and requires at least two contributors.

Is the conflict today a war of religions? Not as far as America was concerned when she entered Iraq, but it is certainly being turned into one by the Global Islamic Jihadists who see that as the best way to unite and defeat the invaders.

Islam as demonised as it may be is no worse than christianity or Judaism yet today it is tarnished for the sake of creating a superior, unilaterla view of the world. And by whom is it tarnished if not the murderers who kill in its name.

AMX10

30th Jul 2005, 17:01

Everyone here seems to be focused on Islam and its killers, forgotten are China, surely making its way in.

Then there is North Korea that has suddenly become a viable dialogue partner even though they estimate that 100000 North Koreans die of hunger every year, why are the americans not there with their army? north Korea is producing WMD but I guess its ok!

NO worries we will continue turning a blind eye to all the rogue states and look after Iraq because they are the most dangerous at the moment.

The truth is The US went in thinking it was going to be easy in and out, what they have landed with is a security problem worldwide that they would like to blame on muslim extremists, that is the truth and if you do not wish to see it its your choice, its fine with me, it does not disturb me one bit mate, carry on you will be fine.

Now, where are the US going next? The largest deficit ever, Sudan? Syria....... I mean it's ok with me too but what is the point?

Fitzcarraldo, you carry on with your frame of mind I really have nothing to say to folks like you who are just wrapped in their patriotism to a point where they do not see what's coming.

Tomorrow you will look back and if you talk of dialogue you should show interest in others' perspectives but you don't still slammering away at this myth that Arabs and Muslims are there with a sole purpose in liffe to kill christians. We will see what the US will leave of Iraq, it already looks promising. Future will tell though and I hope that everyone on this forum will see better then.

I would laugh if after the US leave Iraq, all we find is either Saddam back in power or just another dictator just as bloody and cruel, it will tell us of the success of the "Allised " efforts there.

I really do not have time for people who need to be repeated to 10 times and whose only objective is to slander, and treat others with contempt.

I notice that you are very good at jumping quickly but you still have not answered any of my questions, you just like to criticise at your will without due foundation.

.And by whom is it tarnished if not the murderers who kill in its name.

I think that you are watching too much telly mate, and in Whose names are the american killing innocent civilians? Capitalism, Democracy (And what a democracy!) Spare us theis narrow minded rethoric please!

A few recommendations to some of you here is stop reading this spinned stuff from the Heritage foundation and other right wing think tanks and get into some real history of the region, it is both interesting and will certainly give you the right perspective when analysing the issues raised here. until then talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, actually that said, a brick wall will show more of what it knows from the past than some of you

Terd Furguson

30th Jul 2005, 17:58

Hello,

Presently out of country but was wondering.....As it has been 10 days, has God done anything to settle the matter yet?

Thanks

AMX10

30th Jul 2005, 18:43

Well he has decided to spare us for a change much to the disappointment of OBL and the drinks are cheap at the Panorama; which probably doesn't make him any happier!;)

BYMONEK

30th Jul 2005, 19:14

The Drinks may be cheap at the Panorama but what about the girls? Are THEY cheap?

Fitzcarraldo

30th Jul 2005, 20:10

Everyone here seems to be focused on Islam and its killers, forgotten are China, surely making its way in. Making its way in? Haven't seen any evidence of Chinese suicide bombers in the Tube yet. Maybe there's a plot to poison us all via the local Takeaways?

Then there is North Korea that has suddenly become a viable dialogue partner even though they estimate that 100000 North Koreans die of hunger every year, why are the americans not there with their army? north Korea is producing WMD but I guess its ok! And N.Korea is a big bag of wind too. No bombing. No killing, except their unfortunate own people. Do you want us to go in and deal with that? I thought you objected to the invasion of Iraq? Is the invasion of N.Korea OK because there are no muslims involved perhaps?

NO worries we will continue turning a blind eye to all the rogue states and look after Iraq because they are the most dangerous at the moment. We agree on that.

The truth is The US went in thinking it was going to be easy in and out, Too bad they listened to the likes of Chalabi. Personally I think Iraq deserved Saddam and would've left him alone.
....what they have landed with is a security problem worldwide that they would like to blame on muslim extremists, The attacks in New York, Bali, Kenya, Sharm-el-sheik and London were carried out by muslim extremists. Who do YOU blame? The victims?

that is the truth and if you do not wish to see it its your choice, its fine with me, it does not disturb me one bit mate, carry on you will be fine. Yeah, right, I don't see it. Probably because I haven't got my head on backwards like the vast majority of muslims, including you.

Now, where are the US going next? The largest deficit ever, Sudan? Syria....... I mean it's ok with me too but what is the point? Personally I'd stick to 'stand-off' weapons next time.

Fitzcarraldo, you carry on with your frame of mind I really have nothing to say to folks like you who are just wrapped in their patriotism to a point where they do not see what's coming. Patriotism? That doesn't even come into it. I'm talking about Right vs Wrong. Good vs Evil. Muslim 'patriotism' - actually, zealotry - is the problem facing the world today.

Tomorrow you will look back and if you talk of dialogue you should show interest in others' perspectives but you don't still slammering away at this myth that Arabs and Muslims are there with a sole purpose in liffe to kill christians. Rubbish! I never said any such thing. The jihadists kill ANYBODY - even their brother muslims! The first victim buried after 7/7 was a muslim girl!

We will see what the US will leave of Iraq, it already looks promising. Future will tell though and I hope that everyone on this forum will see better then. Dream on.

I would laugh if after the US leave Iraq, all we find is either Saddam back in power or just another dictator just as bloody and cruel, it will tell us of the success of the "Allised " efforts there. saddam will swing long before the Yanks leave Iraq.

I really do not have time for people who need to be repeated to 10 times and whose only objective is to slander, and treat others with contempt. I give only as I receive.

I notice that you are very good at jumping quickly but you still have not answered any of my questions, you just like to criticise at your will without due foundation.You asked a question? Please repeat it - all I saw was lecturing.

I think that you are watching too much telly mate, and in Whose names are the american killing innocent civilians? Capitalism, Democracy (And what a democracy!) Spare us theis narrow minded rethoric please! Innocent civilians are dying in Iraq at the hands of fellow muslims, but thats Americas fault, and so muslims are entitled to do it too? Shame!
Maybe you've been watching too much Al Jazeera yourself.

A few recommendations to some of you here is stop reading this spinned stuff from the Heritage foundation.... Who???:confused: :yuk:

nixisfix

31st Jul 2005, 05:02

Guys, this is a Professional PILOTS RUMOUR network.
Let's agree to disagree and move on to something more interesting than justifying murder of innoncent people. I have my share of this cancerous news everytime I open the newspaper...

AMX10

31st Jul 2005, 05:58

Fitz whatever:

You are a liar, bigotted and ignorant. Go play somwhere where people will believe you. Firstly you must note that I am not Muslim but Jewish. I have been living in the Gulf for 25 years and have never encountered a single problem, This said, your comments are inflamatory and there is no excuse to insult anyone.

As a jew I have yet to see the ugly side of racism like i see it in you, folk like you will excuse anything including the Shoa. Shame on you.

Talking to us like we never read and that you hold all the knowledge, get off your high horse you are neither the holder of truth or the book and represent neither christian values or Judaic ones, you are a shame to mankind!

Procrastinate all you want all I wish you is that one day reason will have the better of you.

According to you:
Too bad they listened to the likes of Chalabi. Personally I think Iraq deserved Saddam and would've left him alone

Personally, you can thisnk what you like fitzcrap, Please get your facts right. Chalabi never influenced US policy he was an instrument of us policy, Wolfowitz, Cheney and the think tanks did.

We are trying to make this into a dialogue or at least I thought you were until I read this:

Yeah, right, I don't see it. Probably because I haven't got my head on backwards like the vast majority of muslims, including you.

At the end of the day, you have no excuse or proof for the invaion of IRAQ you just want to justify it by any means, go live with your cows they may believe you.

It is after all the narrow minded like you who make up for a large majority of today's problems, if you are here to exacerbate we do not need you, so please take your thoughts elswhere, maybe to the minute militia in Texas or the KKK, or even the British BNP, they need you. Bigotry, we don't want you here. Disppointed to know that the likes of you exist on this earth, you make me sick to my stomach.

GPIT
Bye

BYMONEK;

Only had a drink, funny to meet up with old Dubai, people I have not seen in 15 years, lodge days, wish I could drink now what I could then! Never asked the birds nor did I want to, but certainly negotiable affection there!:8

divinesoul

31st Jul 2005, 07:33

hi ppl

I have been reading this thread.I think american policies are to blame for todays mayhem.they thought they could influence governments for their needs and they were successful to some extent but they under estimated what the common man could do.Remeber osama bin laden once was an american govt ally.Americans funded the afghan militia against erstwhile Soviet union but the plan backfired after a few years.These are all direct result of american inteference to serve their interests.they should stop spreading their influence in other countries.Americans will do anything to serve their interests a best example of which is Pakistan.even though they advocate democracy they are supporting a country ruled by an military dictator just on the pretext of terrorism.On the contrary india which has been suffering cross border terrorism for more than a decade have been patient for years.America on the other hand went on to invade Iraq which just added fuel to the Anti american feeling.India had its own policies not influenced by any country as a result the biggest win for Indian democracy is that not a single Indian muslim is part of al qaeda network(there are very little exceptions) and has escaped the al qaeda wrath that the west is facing now,but its faing another type of terrorism called cross border terrorism.the only reason america has sided with India now is because of the economic rise of communist china another example of american interests being served in SE ASIA.

This is the main reason why Indians have sided with the russians than with america because they know america will change their colour when their interests have to be served.
America change ur policies otherwise its not only going to affect you but also your allies.

DPWN

31st Jul 2005, 08:07

Fitzcarraldo

You comments prove to me that you still don't know what an average Muslim in the street are thinking. Seeing t-shirts for sale in Malaysia showing OBL. Oh yeah that is very average. You won't see that in a typical Arab souk.

So who have you been speaking too and which interviews did you see? I already stated that most you see on the media is false. Media will interview 20 persons on the street, normally after an incident or killing, but will show 1 or 2 of the meaty ones that will be more dramatic. This is the same for the Arab media as much as the west. These are not the views of average muslims and neither is the kid wearing an OBL touting t-shirt average.

You have spoken to Muslims? Please clarify who and where? Because i differ from those you have conversed with previously does this mean i'm not an average Muslim?

I guess not! I am not typical being a westerner who was a Christian with a firm Christian upbringing before reverting.

When i have narrowly missed rocket or mortar attacks in Iraq i don't think to myself that i'm being shot at by a Muslim! I think i'm being shot at by a blo*dy idiot who is just a pawn and who's actions are misguided.

I am a bit of a mixed bag too having Catholic relatives in Northern Ireland who would have previously considered me as a Protestant. I have walked around the housing estates in Nationalist areas and drunk in IRA bars which for an English Protestant was not to comfortable i can tell you. But i was safe due to my Catholic relatives and friends and when questioned by certain parties they could see who i was and that i wasn't up to no good.

Again it is obvious that you only know only some of what you talk about and it is based on real experience which is limited. The IRA is a criminal organization (again i use the term) and they are Catholic despite what may have happened a few hundred years ago and FYI only a small part of it's activities concentrated on terrorism. They are a mafia whose crimes include protection rackets, money laundering, making counterfeit and selling stolen goods, the list goes on etc etc. Some would say that this is to fund terrorism when all it is supposed to do is line peoples pockets within the organization

Also bear in mind that the US has funded the IRA for years. There would be some large funds travelling over the pond to Ireland and most Irish pubs in New York and Boston would have collection pots on the bars to fund the Catholic's plight and where do you think this money would be going?? It may be just a drop in the ocean but the contradiction is obvious.

I have been interested to see all the views on this forum and from dialogue such as this we can obviously see that we all a have a lot to learn from each others opinions. Perhaps if more western people would take the time to understand the Islamic religion and culture and vice versa maybe we could all find some common ground that unites us, whether we be Christian, Catholic Protestant or Muslim we all worship the same god and are all brothers together. United we can fight these criminal groups, not all of which are Islamic, but while we still encourage segregation and ignorance there will always be disharmony. This is very much a Eutopian view but we all live in hope, in sha'Allah.

I think all that needs to be said has been flogged to death so i'll give a typical Arab farewell :
Hello, bye bye

FlyingCroc

31st Jul 2005, 09:42

Who are the terrorists? That is the big question. All we know that they are criminals and there are many types of criminals. The US and Phony Blair always try to blame everything that happens on this planet on this big conspiracy of Al Qaida, Osama Bin laden, Zarkawi etc etc. Does nobody think that it is strange that Zarkawi can outrun the whole US military on his wooden leg in Iraq? Or Osama Bin laden lives on a bad kidney in caves in Afganistan organizing aircraft hijackings and again outruns the mighty US military? The conspiracy is that evil muslims can organize in small sleeper cells worldwide and are able to attack worldwide with deadly precision and defeat the WHOLE US defense NORAD which was originally designed to defend the US against the once powerful Soviet Union. Thanks God the Russians did not know how utter useless NORAD was:yuk:

Fitzcarraldo

31st Jul 2005, 15:24

My don't they get abusive when challenged!
I've noticed this to be a common reaction of muslims - they have such fixed world views that they just can't tolerate being contradicted. Try it on any muslim website and you'll be banned in seconds.

AMX10 - you say you are a Jew? I don't believe you, not for a second, not in a million years. Unless you are in some kind of highly privileged or wealthy position which protects you. I can understand moderate jews who might be open minded about the nature of the problems in the ME, but I've yet to hear one who was a hard core Islamist apologist as you are. You know what the Koran calls Jews, don't you? And I've heard the pig and monkey comments repeated brazenly in public and without the batting of an eyelid by 'average muslims'.

And try to temper your language. You just sound rather coarse.
Is that perhaps a manipulative attempt to have this uncomfortable little thread shut down for you?

DPWN, if those T-Shirts in KL had sported a picture of a naked woman, they'd have been ripped down in seconds and the vendors arrested. Not so long ago Fashion Magazines on sale in Malaysia had every page individually censored with black marker to cover up any bare flesh! Talk about hypocrisy!

When it comes to 'average muslims' I'm tired of hearing the comments in the aftermath of terror attacks such as London has seen lately. 'I can't believe Mohammed did this - he was a nice quiet AVERAGE guy'. Seems to be the common denominator.
So you tell me - what IS an average muslim?

Better still - show us a website dedicated to 'average muslim' opinion and let us judge for ourselves - I'm sick of seeing insane jihadi drivellings everywhere I look.

And another thing.
At the height of the IRA bombing capaign in Britain, no Irish person would dare come onto a website like this and try to explain it away, much less verbally abuse those who challenged their views.
I think you should show a little more humility if you expect ANY sympathy around here at the moment.:mad:

AMX10

31st Jul 2005, 17:38

Just as an indication of your ignorance Fitz whatever, jews have lived in this part of the world for centuries if not millenaries.

Now again to show how ignorant you are there are some local families in the region that are jewish, and your comments about Arabs are now just an indication of your complete ignorance and total bigotry.

Not to believe me is your own choice, and it's fine with me.

And so we continue:

You know what the Koran calls Jews, don't you?

No but I have a feeling I am going to find out soon from your enlightened perspective, enhanced withyour selective reading of history.

Just admit that you hate Arabs and muslims plain, and this is on apology.

Ignotant you are and you are happy living with it, if I were you, i'd be looking after my girlfriend (that's if you have one of course) as she might be enjoying the company of a circumsized Arab (or jew) while you are reading this.

[URL=http://www.americannaziparty.com/[/URL]
This is the link to follow when you find out.

:E

gccpro

31st Jul 2005, 17:50

Fitz Carrotop Thabom

You are the habibi we are waiting for the mehdi of this world, without you we are dead, without you we don't eat, we miss you, come and see us, we love you!

Come to our coutry, we make you and your girlfriend happy, she will be very happy, too much men here for her! And not all pilots, they go in when you go out.

Call me we make an apoointment for your girlfriend. You can choose if you like between the Al Habtoor boys or the Al Maktoum depends how she looks.

And yes you are a pig, in Arabic we say Khanzeer, remember that word.

AMX PM me

Payscale

31st Jul 2005, 17:52

Boys boys...give it a rest now

Hazrail

31st Jul 2005, 18:00

Today the Arabs tomorrow the Jews another day it could be the Indians or wh knows, for you it's no different provided you are right in your wrongdoings.

Speaking from the promised land!

Fitzcarraldo

31st Jul 2005, 20:56

Well well....it seems Ummah.Com is on a field trip.

My jihadi friends, you can come visit the shores of Erin anytime.
I guarentee you a warm welcome.
We know how to use AK-47's here too. :suspect:

maxalt

1st Aug 2005, 01:05

Its nice to see that famed healthy attitude to women coming from our Islamic contributors. :yuk:
Keep it up lads, you're certainly meeting expectations!

AMX10

1st Aug 2005, 03:51

Maxalt;

Get a life and a pint of stout, both you and Fitz khara are racist pigs, and you expect to be treated with respect.

If that is how you like to live in Ireland we approve of it for you, why shall I accept your ignorant and bigotted views of the world.

Refuting and procrastinating is what Fitzgerald is doing so be it.

I have nothing to say to him really.

Open your own topic if you want and expose yourencyclopedia of Arabia as you see it and let's see where it will go, as far as this thread is concerned, nothing happened last week in the UAE despite your wishes and we are pleased.

Bye, bye

billy34-kit

1st Aug 2005, 04:03

Ok, you are justifying all attrocities comitted by the terrorists, because of the intervention in Irak and in Afgan...
now let's go in pre-Irak conflict...

1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. Fourteen were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.
1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 Marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.
1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. Two Americans killed.
1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.
1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.
1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.
1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. Thirteen Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. Four men connected with al-Qaeda two of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. Seventeen sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.
2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed two commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; two more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)

(please let me include sept.11, because the planning haved started 2 years before the attack...right in the middle of Clinton's administration)

OK...then now I want to see your justification for those one!!

loc22550

1st Aug 2005, 05:19

Amx 10, before treating people of racist, take a mirror and have a look at all your previous racist post. thanks.

gccpro

1st Aug 2005, 06:36

Billy 34:

Vietnam
Laos
Afghanistan
Iraq (15 years now)

This list is enought to show what ssort of a track the US have in the world.
What have they left behind?
You answer that and it is not civilisation.

Easy to point out, difficult to look at your own feces.

An Axe in the head of a black boy, A brickmin the head of a Bulgarian bartender, the Omagh bombing.......and the list goes on.

I think the Irish and English should sort their problems out first, but they always seem to find excuses to these prompts, the black boy was at the wrong place, the Bulgarian bartender did not understand or did not want to serve the hooligan, and the Irish are Irish; but between us we all know how racist the English are. They just think that it's ok for them to call indian rubbernecks, pakistanis pakis, locals double zeros etc...

They have their own pubs in the gulf where indians and Arabs are rarely allowed; but we will not call that racism and there is no reason for anyone to get upset when in thier own country they are refused entry into a pub.

What can I say loc old boy, it's going your way, AMX is not wrong in what he says, and that he is still being polite, I notice neither you or fitzcarr are, with your preconceived ideas that only arabs and muslims are behind today's ill's and problems.

With minds like yours, promoting yourselves as the epitome of humanity in the world today it is no wonder that that you see nothing else but your belly button.

AMX10

1st Aug 2005, 07:01

Loc Old Boy;

I do not need a mirror to read my posts, I can see them on the screen thanks for the advice old boy!

So you think I am racist? Not really after being called a muslim with head twisted wrong like all muslims, I find that what I had to say mild, considering I am not even muslim.

Fitz

Good man! Ireland and it's terrorism cannot possibly being envious of the ummah taking the limelight for it? is that why you are so angry after all?

Whatever the ideology, religious or politcal, killing is no excuse, so there is no reason to give the Irish, republican or unionists excuses as you do for "Ideological" reasons. Killing is killing and terrorism is terrorism. In the face of truth you lie again.

Speak tome when you have a whole country, at the moment Ireland is still divided, and as an Irishman you accept being in a British Dominion (Yes i can see you say! I am not British I am Irish) so sort out your country first.

Billy 34

What alist, you amaze me, but have you ever wondered why and oh how coincidental that these attacks are all geared towards the same Americans?

Perhaps that should answer your question, and if it doesn't, I suggest you go back to school and study some of the more contradictory US policies like the Monroe doctrine.

And when you speak of democracy please specify which one and for who? Greece and antiquity, Indian, English, French or American and what definition you have for democracy, big word, little meaning thruout history.

Maxalt,

I know better not to fly Rianair, being used to the real airlines of the world in the Meast including El AL, Ryan Air is cheap and nasty. If I were you, I wouldn't eve put the name on my profile even if they paid me. You are probably one of those drivers who never mustered the professional and social skills to get yourself a job with an outfit in the Middle East.

All your posts remind me just how racist most Westerners are.

Anyway, King Fahd has just been announced dead, he swallowed his Nikes to fast, shall we move and continue our arguments there? Or shall we stay here and respect the solemnity of the occasion.