Caravelle

[SE210]

Dear friends

I would like to know, if there have been attempts to restore a Caravelle to flying condition (besides the Caravelle 3 in Sweden).

I know it is a tremendous task, but people keep restoring all kinds of aircraft around the world - from DC7s to Lockheed Starliners.

Personally I would prefer the 10B or 10R, but I am not sure, if there are any airframes around, that would suit the project.

Brgds

SE210

[Conan the Librarian]

I seem to remember a company called Transavia (Baltic? Scandinavian?) offering three low time and well maintained examples about 10 -12 years ago. Think they had just been D checked so they might be candidate airframes. They may even be the Swedish ones referred to.


Conan

[treadigraph]

What's the story with the Caravelle in Sweden?

Lovely aeroplane the Caravelle, love the chance to go for a ride in one.

[SE210]

Transavia ???

I wonder, what company that could have been. And with complete D-checks ???

I really can not think of any. Sterling sold retired their last 10B in 1992 and then leased a couple of planes to Air Toulouse. Later they were sold to Colombia.

I do not recall, what happened to Air Syria´s Caravelles, but may be those were the ones.

Aero Lloyd had 10R´s, and I know that one was stored outside. And later damaged by another airplane. Do anybody know, if this plane still exists??

Brgds

SE210

[Conan the Librarian]

The memory is vague - but it might have been that Transavia were flogging the Sterling examples. Dunno... so long ago now...

Conan

[treadigraph]

I'll also have to confess a shakey memory here, but...

Transavia (Holland) certainly operated Caravelles many years ago - I'm going back to mid 70s before they re-equipped with 737s, but was there not a TRANSAIR in Sweden - or even Transwede? that also operated Caravelles. Might it have been they who offered the aircraft for sale?

It IS a long time ago!

[Conan the Librarian]

Getting excited at Treadigraphs post here... Yup, it was one of them! Know they had three up for grabs and were I am sure, fine examples of the genre.

It WAS a long time ago... Maybe 89 to 90?

Conan

[jabberwok]

Would love to see one flying again too - but would they need a noise abatement dispensation? :}

[IB4138]

Wasn't their an Air Scibe or Scibe Airlift from the Congo who operated some sub charters for the I/T industry in the 70s/80s with a couple of Caravelles? Colour scheme was red and white as I recall.

[Opssys]

Ah the Caravelle - Cockpit and Nose designed by de Haviland, Power by RR Avons. I would love to wander around a restored one as many happy hours and one very scary 10 Minutes despatching Caravelles out of Gatwick in the 1970's.

Although to some extent the Happy bit is due that era being viewed through the rose tinted filter of memory!

At take off power made a 1-11 seem quiet :-)
DIH

[MKDC8]

Adding to the nostalgia on Caravelle's there is another outfit, need to cast your minds back to Intercontinental of Nigeria who gained that adverse publicity of try to land a DC8 in dense fog at Stansted and flying into the top of a light standing on the old cargo stands.

Saw one at Stansted on a coupl of time, but as you say memories are very hazy, many moons ago !!!

[forget]

I'm pretty sure, about a year ago, I saw a Caravelle parked at Columbus Ohio airport. Looked all in one piece and in fair nick. Anyone from Columbus?

[barit1]

I'm pretty sure, about a year ago, I saw a Caravelle parked at Columbus Ohio airport. Looked all in one piece and in fair nick. Anyone from Columbus?

There was one at CVG (Greater Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky) too - at the DHL freight operation. Maybe it's still there.

I only rode a Caravelle once - on a United recruiting flight in '63 to/from ORD. I remember the crew demonstrating an emergency descent over Lake Michigan!

[Duckbutt]

In regard to the Columbus Caravelle, this must sound a bit sad I know, but if you have Earth Google (mentioned elswhere recently in Jetblast), have a look at position 39.59.26N 82.52.26W. Difficult to say for certain but I wonder if this may be the machine in question. Seems to be lacking starboard engine.

Think the image may date to mid 2002 from evidence elsewhere.

Incidentally my first two flights ever were on SAS Caravelles from Gatwick to Bergen and back in the summer of 1967. One was OY-KRC if I recall correctly.

[forget]

Duckbutt, I don't see a Caravelle there but thanks for putting me on to Earth Google. Brilliant!!

PS. Apologies Duckbutt. I was looking at the wrong airport! Not the first time. That is indeed the Ohio Caravelle to which I referred. This internet thing is scary!

[flyboy2]

At Bujumbura [ Burundi ] a "Burundi Airways " Caravelle languishes under a layer of grime.

At Kinshasa -DRC there's another Caravelle.

[No comment]

Time to bring Google Earth out again!!!!

[WHBM]

Here's the most accurate list I know on the web of the extant examples (download the spreadsheet)

http://members.chello.nl/s.c.verbrugge/types.html#caravelle

Remember the last one I saw airborne was a chance sighting in 1992 from a suburban train in Berlin one afternoon of a Syrian Airlines one approaching Berlin Schonefeld. Checked their schedule afterwards, seem to recall it was on a Copenhagen - Berlin - Damascus routing. The above site says the two Syrian ones have been sat at Damascus for the last 10 years and were recently offered for sale, potentially airworthy.

[barit1]

Here's the most accurate list I know on the web of the extant examples (download the spreadsheet)

But the type/photo index seems to be a work in progress (and not very far along...)

if you have Earth Google (mentioned elswhere recently in Jetblast), have a look at position 39.59.26N 82.52.26W.

I think this is the one at CVG: 39.02.35N, 84.39.33W

[Volume]

Just recently visited the Caravelle at Ailes Anciennes (http://www.aatlse.org/photos_avion_coll_caravelle.php) in Toulouse.
Seems to be in pretty good condition, all instruments still in place, still pressure on two of the three hydraulic accumulators, just slight signs of corrosion. Might be a candidate for restauration to airworthy condition

[surely not]

There is deffo a Caravelle at Colombus Ohio Airport. It is part of a museum there and if I remember rightly it was last used by a freight company.

I have a couple of good pictures of an Altair Caravelle at LGW with its nose sticking in the air whilst on the ground. The Gatwick Handling loaders had offloaded the fwd hold and as all the pas disembarked the a/c tipped up onto its tail. The Captain wanted to fire up the engines to blow ir down again!! Fortunately the fire brigade sent 6 of their heaviest blokes out to jump through the fwd door and redress the balance!

Isn't there an ex Hispania machine at Palma as well??

[BossEyed]

There's one at the Pima Air Museum in Arizona.

http://www.transistor.org/personal/pima/aerospatialese210caravelle.jpg

[Bus429]

I think there was a variant of the Caravelle powered by P & W JT-8s.
Indian Airlines used to operate Caravelles and I recall a tragedy involving a Caravelle in 1975 or 1976 at Bombay.

Incidentally, just be topical, Air France lost a 747 to fire at Bombay in 1975. Fortunately, no fatalities, just a huge mess.

[Rhys S. Negative]

Passing this on purely for information, not advertising - I have no personal connection with the author or publisher. A 'google' on the author plus title should locate it for anyone interested.

=================================

Caravelle - the complete story - by John Wegg
CARAVELLE - The Complete Story
Published to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the first flight of the Sud-Est Caravelle, this sumptuous book is a celebration not only of a classic airliner but also of the jet age!


The result of more than 30years research by the acknowledged specialist on the subject - both in France and overseas - this monumental work is the first complete account of the post-war development and 45-year operational career of the first aircraft to adopt the now universal rear-engined layout, and the first airliner to prove the turbojet over short- and medium-haul routes.


Illustrated by more than 900 photographs, most of which are in colour and previously unpublished, and 150 drawings, all aspects of the Caravelle’s life are covered thoroughly in nearly 30 chapters. Drawing on the archives of the French Aviation Authority for the first time, a full appreciation of the genesis of this revolutionary design can now be made, along with its evolution and influence on today’s European aircraft industry. The author’s own extensive contacts, documentation, and first hand experience reveal the story of an airliner in world-wide service, sometimes in remarkable roles.


Extensive and detailed appendices offer an unparalleled reference to techinal aspects, use by nearly 150 airlines and several air arms, and the history of each of the 282 Caravelle's produced, from first flight to retirement. Also included is a census of all surviving airframes.

[treadigraph]

I think there was a variant of the Caravelle powered by P & W JT-8s.

Just been discussing this in the pub: we think - without any reference to books - that the JT-8 Caravelle was the Super 12. Me mate, bless him, thinks that some Caravelles had Speys as well - my younger and well preserved in alcohol brain - or is it atrophied in alcohol, one forgets - can't recall Speyed RR Caravelles, just Ding Dong Avon ones... But perhaps he's right. SE-210, what say you?

Ah, nostalgia!

Catair, Altair, Aero Lloyd, SAM, Transavia, Transwede, LTU - do I recall a Spanish charter outfit? EAS, Sterling. Never mind the flag carriers... And as a spotty anorak I recall an American Caravelle trailing eastbound along Green 1 - N902MW? Something like that...

Last Caravelle I saw is an ex Sabena aircraft in the Brussels museum, hanging from the ceiling. Ah, Sobelair operated them after didn't they?

[barit1]

And then there was was the GE-powered one...

[WHBM]

Just been discussing this in the pub: we think - without any reference to books - that the JT-8 Caravelle was the Super 12
The Rolls-Royce Avon ones had roman numeral marks, the III and the VI. The P&W ones had numeric marks, the 10, 11, and 12.

There was a GE prototype as well but it didn't reach the production stage.

[EGAC]

I can only confirm Rhys' view above - if you like the SE.210 you've just got to have this book.

I've just bought it and it's very expensive (£55-00) but THOROUGH.

[BEXIL160]

Catair, Altair, Aero Lloyd, SAM, Transavia, Transwede, LTU - do I recall a Spanish charter outfit? EAS, Sterling. Never mind the flag carriers...

The Spanish airline was HISPANIA. Remember THREE of them at Glasgow in the wee small hours of a night shift, c.1985

Rgds BEX

[barit1]

There's a fine brief history of the series HERE (http://www.lecaravelleclub.com/se210history.htm) by Kenneth G. Munson and Nils Alegren

[Airways Ed]

Rhys S. Negative

Thanks for the unsolicited plug.


EGAC

Thanks for buying the book and kind words.


To answer the original query, the answer is, sadly, no, a Caravelle cannot be (legally) returned to the air because the type certificates were cancelled by the holder (Airbus) last December.

The one with Le Caravelle Club at Arlanda will be maintained in potentially airworthy condition.

That said, as far as I am aware, one Super Caravelle (JT8Ds) is still flying in the Congo, 41 years after its first flight.

Vive la Caravelle !

[Newforest]

So the Congo Caravelle would be the last flying example? Does any one recall the Caravelle being buried in Mexico after a drug run from further south?:ooh:

[Fris B. Fairing]

That would be this one (http://www.adastron.com/squawkid/h1fgepc.htm)
Sad end for a lovely looking aeroplane.

Cheers

[Airways Ed]

Yes, the Super Caravelle in the Congo is the last flying example.

Re the link provided by FBF, this Super Caravelle was indeed eventually bulldozed and buried in Mexico.

As mentioned in the book, there may have been another (ex-Sterling) that suffered the same fate.

[Volume]

Some pictures (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?sort_order=photo_id%20DESC&first_this_page=0&page_limit=60&&aircraft_genericsearch=Sud%20SE-210%20Caravelle%7CAerospatiale%20SE-210%20Caravelle&countrysearch=-%20Toulouse%20-%20Blagnac%20%28TLS%20%2F%20LFBO%29&maxres=500&thumbnails=noinfo) from the sad end of the two Toulouse-Caravelles stored for many years in the south-east corner of the airfield.

[EGGW]

That Caravelle in the Congo crashed about 6 months ago, its toast no more, burn't out :{

EGGW.

[Airways Ed]

EGGW

Correct, the former Gabon Express Caravelle 11 R did crash and burn (in August 2004).

However, the Super Caravelle is a different airframe and is still believed flying from Kinshasa; it was certainly active in February and March this year.

[Newforest]

Unfortunately must confirm the sad news that 3D-KIK crashed 28/8/04 in Rwanda and was burnt out. Fortunately there were no major injuries.:(

[Airways Ed]

I would very much welcome contact with any crews who flew (or fly!) Caravelles in Africa with the view to improve my historical record of ops; confidentiality assured.

[WHBM]

Am I correct that the initial Caravelles did not have drop-down oxygen masks, and they were only introduced on the United Airlines ones because the FAA demanded them. Passengers were dependent on crew handing round portable supplies.

Did any European-certified ones get this later, or did it last until the end of the aircraft ?

What was their service ceiling ? And did they have any significant pressurisation incidents in their lives ?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Did the early models have a braking parachute? I'm pretty sure I remember seeing Air France ones taxying in at Manchester in the early 60s, and dropping said 'chute on the taxyway just after vacating the runway.

SSD

[Liffy 1M]

Some Caravelle braking 'chute pics:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/226368/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/229579/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/716050/M/

[GAXLN]

Yes, indeed early versions of the Caravelle did have a braking parachute deployed from the base of the tail.

I was fortunate in making five flights by Caravelle in the early 1980's. I flew VIE-CDG on a Series III (F-BJTL) on Air France's last day of Caravelle ops 28/3/81 and unless my memory is playing me up I recall seeing the parachute had been deployed on the aircraft's last flight into CDG. Then on 26/11/81 I flew LHR-LIL-SXB-LIN on an Europe Air Service Series VI aircraft (the LIL-SXB service operated under an Air Inter flight number) deputising for a TAT F100 on Air France's then LHR-LIL-SXB route. Finally, on 23/3/82 I flew LYS-CDG on F-BTOE of Air Inter a Series 12 and the last production aircraft which had originally entered service as late as 1973 and is now preserved in Toulouse. By coincidence, that morning I had flown ORY-LYS on F-BTTJ the very last production Mercure thus enjoying by chance two 'final production aircraft' flights in one day.

I liked the Caravelle with its unusual shaped windows and curtains at the windows. A fine aircraft which I recall shared its nose section design with that of the DH Comet.

[Airways Ed]

WHBM

Only the United Air Lines Caravelle VI Rs had the drop-down oxygen system, as you say because of FAA demands. The procedure was then to descend immediately to 17,000ft in two minutes. After eight minutes, a further descent would be made to 14,000ft (at 3,000ft/m). At this altitude, pax had oxygen for 20 minutes.

Even the later Super Caravelles did not use drop-down masks as the high-speed emergency descent rate was around 10,000ft/min. After donning masks, the crew procedure was retard throttles to idle, extend air (speed) brakes (these were on upper and lower wing surfaces), lower nose 20 degrees without exceeding 0.5g, maintain maximum speed of Mach 0.82/IAS 323kt, check terrain clearance, inform ATC, level out started 700ft before desired altitude to avopid excessive loads. The action has been called rather unnerving for the uninitiated.

Service ceiling was 39,300ft (12,000m); in practice around FL350-370 with a full load.

In the event that the cabin altitude reached 10,000ft (up from the usual 7000-8000ft), there were visual and aural warnings. A pressure relief valve limited cabin altitude to 13,000ft.

I am not aware of any significant pressurization problems occurring with the Caravelle during its service life.


SSD

The early Caravelles powered by Rolls-Royce Avons without reversers (so the Type I, I A, III, VI N) did have a braking parachute, which offered insurance in the case of brake problems or slippery runways because of rain, ice, or snow. Deployment was not routine. The sensation for the pax was comparable to reverse thrust.


GAXLN

Yes, the prototype Caravelles shared the nose of the Comet. After the Comet disasters, Sud Aviation re-engineered the cockpit section, and it was later modified with larger transparencies.

[Bre901]

I have flown (SLF) on some of the last Air Inter ORY<->GNB flights (12 series), before the Mercure. One of the worst flights I have experienced was on the same route on a III series from Corse Air with the smallest seat pitch I ever saw (non-reclining seatbacks). I couldn't keep simultaneously my heels on the ground and my knees close together :{ :{

Nice airplane to fly on, and probably one of the best aluminium gliders (L/D over 20 at a time when the wooden two-seaters were no better). On April 16th 1959, the Air France "Lorraine" Caravelle glided 265 km in 46 minutes from Orly to Dijon starting at 12000m with engines idled.

[Airways Ed]

Air France's well-publicised gliding demonstration was beaten by VARIG in October 1959, with a 328km (204mi) glide, with a L/D ratio close to 23.

[WHBM]

Airways Ed:

Interesting information about the Caravelle's pressurisation features. Looks like it would take up to 3 minutes to get down to breathable altitudes, given crew reaction time, working up to max descent rate, etc.

Reason I was interested (and had questions about ceiling and known events) is to compare with recent discussion about the Helios accident, where there was much discussion about how, if you don't don masks in the first 10-15 seconds, problems arise.

I know Caravelle flight deck had their own masks. But F/As may well be in mid-cabin when it starts. And given the state of development of 1950s pressurisation systems compared to today, one would expect many more system failures, and thus experience of what happens.

Didn't mean to get into braking parachutes, but how long did it take to repack it before departure after being deployed ? Was it dragged in on the ground to the gate or could it be retracted again ? Whose job was repacking - base engineer or F/E (which I believe Caravelles had) ? Old skydiver here is just intrigued with all the potential problems. By the way (getting back to the emergency descent)) that 10,000 fpm descent is almost up to skydivers terminal velocity, and no jump plane was ever able to anything like keep up with us (though some tried !)

[Airways Ed]

You are correct, WHBM, the assumption was a maximum of three minutes to reach FL140 from cruising altitude. TUC without oxygen was considered 30sec at FL350. Crews have told me they could beat the average 10,000ft/min descent in practices.

The braking parachute was normally released between the runway and the tarmac area.

Sometimes a spare chute was carried in the cargo hold, or one kept in the station spares stores. The job of repacking the parachute was that of the base engineer. I would guess the process to repack and stow would take an hour or so.

While a third pilot or ‘systems operator’ was often part of the Caravelle crew complement, depending on the union situation, many operators had a two-pilot crew (the Caravelle was the first jetliner so-operated).

Incidentally, the Tupolev Tu-104 also had braking chutes fitted.

Good questions; one day I must screw up the courage to dive out of an aircraft!

[treadigraph]

one day I must screw up the courage to dive out of an aircraft!

Well, if you must, but don't expect me to keep you company.

and no jump plane was ever able to anything like keep up with us (though some tried !)

Ever seen the article about Steve Hinton and friends who dived a pair of Stearmen vertically over the Ginormous Gorge thingy in Arizona with a pair of idiots who leaped out and skydived alongside and eventually reboarded. I'm sure I did't dream it...

A stunt repeated in one of the Bond films with a PC-6.

Sorry, back to Caravelles....

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I was but a wee lad in the early '60s when I saw AF Caravelles vacate Manchester's 24 and drop the 'chute on the taxyway. I remember some of the older hands (probably all of 15 years old) commenting on how unpopular this was with the airport authorities, since they had to go out and collect it so the taxyway would not remain blocked.

Not that there was that much traffic at Manch in those days!

SSD

[Airways Ed]

Checking the Air France maintenance manual, a spare parachute already packed in its container was normally carried, so the actual replacement process was to install a new container and not repack the chute. The container weighed 26kg.

[Antoninus]

The first plane I flew in was a Caravelle. Paris to Rome and return. I was ten years old and loved every minute of it.
Why don't they make noses like that anymore?
Best looking nose of the aviation industry, I think.
Not only was the engine layout revolutionary but if I recall it was also the first aircraft fitted with a ramp like stairwell dropping down from the rear.
And 10 000 Ft/Min descents???
WOW!
Anyone ever tried dive bombing with a Caravelle?

[barit1]

The Martinliner twins (202 & 404) had rear stairs under the tail.

I have also seen such a boarding stair on an executive PBY Catalina - behind the aft hull step.

Of course they were very common on 727's & early DC-9's. A scoundel named D.B. Cooper used one as a jump exit for his getaway - one of the earliest hijackings. This event brought about a squat-switch interlock for the stair.

[Airways Ed]

Both the Martin 202 and some Convair 240s introduced the rear integral stairway, a feature adopted for the Caravelle and so making it the first jet so-equipped.

Paratroopers used the stairway for their exit.

[GlueBall]

A handful of Carvelles had been operating as freighters in Colombia into this century.

SE-210 cargo (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/122790/L/)

[Bre901]

Anyone ever tried dive bombing with a Caravelle? Probably not, but there was a Caravelle zéro-G (http://caea.free.fr/fr/coll/zerog.html) (French equivalent of the vomit Comet)
Same page in english (http://caea.free.fr/en/coll/zerog.html) (looks like an automatic translation)

[SE210]

Hi Airways ED

Are you sure, that the CV240 featured the ventral stair.

I have never seen this, nor read about it.

Brgds

SE210

[Airways Ed]

The first Convair-Liner, the Model 110, featured the ventral door and stairway.

Production 240s were offered in four interior and door arrangements, Types A, B, C, & D; only B (sometimes referred to as W for Western) had the ventral door and integral stairs.

To return to the Caravelle, the Zero G example is preserved at Bordeaux.