Crash at Naples Air Centre

[JABI]

Well, well, look what showed up on the OFT crash thread;
http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=183122

Cessna 152 N625PA substantially damaged during a forced landing.
The NTSB report is here:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20050721X01072&ntsbno=ATL05CA104&akey=1

Since it happenend on the 19th June, just curious on why this managed to stay under the radar for so long ?

[JABI]

Curious as to why there haven't been any reactions yet, not even from the usual suspects :E
I guess this case is just cut and dry considering the fact the NTSB report is already the final report.
Interesting how an accident at OFT will generate posts but here people seem to be :oh:

[daniel78]

because Nac is the boogeyman,
you look in the mirror and say their name five times one of them will show up behind you:eek:

[JABI]

I would like to keep this discussion serious Daniel.
Why does it happen that an incident somewhere else get's the motor-mouths
going and when it happens at NAC everybody is silent ?
Don't potential students have the right to know what's going on ?

[daniel78]

well mate,do you have a better theory for why a poor student doing a ****ty landing gets tons of press and an instructor running out of fuel gets virtually nothing?:confused:

[JABI]

A student bouncing on his 2nd solo is maybe (just maybe) a little bit more inherent to flight training then an instructional flight running out of fuel.
That's just stupid.
It may also point at more structural problems.

[daniel78]

looking at the report,
they took off on a long IFR training flight with no intentions of landing anywhere enroute for refuelling.
Endurance,safety and reserves were obviously not a top priority for this flight.
Who did the flightplanning and who approved it?

Unfortunately the only way the public ever finds out about these things, is when an accident occurs,
fortunately in this case with no serious injuries.

[JABI]

Sorry took a while for me to dig out my 1978 C 152 Operating handbook.
Under section 5 (performance)
Total trip distance Naples-Opa Locka-Vero Beach-Naples is 303 NM.

Fuel requirements:

Start-up & taxi 0.8 gallons
Climb to 5000' 1.4 gallons assuming standard temp +20 C
Cruise @ 5000' 5gallons/hr @ 99kts.

After climb fuel remaining = 21.76
3.06 hrs @ 99kts - 15.3
_____________________________
Fuel remaining 6.45 gallons

Three approaches @ 15 min per approach, an additional 45 min fuel.
Since you are lower, less leaning different pwr settings and a missed approach fuel burn will be hard to predict but it's at least 5 gallons/hr
45 min approaches 3.75 gallons.

6.45-3.75 = 2.7 gallons left.

This means after planning a 3 hrs 45 min flight assuming a no-wind condition and three approaches fuel left is 2.7 which equals 0.54 hrs= 32 min.
That's not even IFR reserves.
Very tight planning from the start.
Very scary you assume book -figure fuel burn on a 25 year old plane.
Now take into account the vectors at Vero Beach for 15 min, that leaves you
17 min of fuel. Unknown vectoring at Miami, < 17 min of fuel.
Still a request at Fort Myers for a ILS while the gauges must have been near zero already.
This flight should never have been made without a fuel stop enroute.
Would be interesting to know why they decided otherwise anyway.
Plenty of airports by the way enroute from Vero Beach back to Naples.
According to Airnav.com at
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KVRB
cheapest fuel at Vero Beach is self service @$3.30/ gallon.
Part of that will be reimbursed by the flight school I'm sure.

[WX Man]

Yeah, they'll reimburse some stupidly quaint amount... like, $1.80/gal if you're lucky.

A policy which discourages people from filling up away from base.

I'm not saying that Captain Richard Gentil should reimburse everyone for all fuel they buy, at whatever cost... but it is VERY irresponsible to reimburse people at a rate so hugely below what they would have payed for it. THIS is probably a contributory factor... because, let's face it, landing fees at the away airports ain't....

[VisaGeeza]

It's pretty usual to get re-imbursed a low amount for fuel purchased away from base. It's a good idea when hour building to check before renting what the refund rate is.

In your case WX Man I would be more interested to know what they would charge me if I burned out the aircraft! :} Have you got the hang of that primer thing yet? :} :} :}

[Julian]

Very low!

Usually when refuleeling away you win at some and lose at others but over the course of a week or so flying it averages out so you more of less break even.

Anyone know what the rate is at Naples? I normally find that the refund rate is the price at the pumps of the FBO (assuming they sell their own fuel!).

Julian.

[WX Man]

... or somewhere not run by one of the most objectionable characters I have ever met in my life.

(primer? What's that? I just flick the fuel on when N1 gets to 20%)

[JABI]

According to NAC's website they promote long cross country trips so they hardly deter people from taking long trips.
Hooverdam, New York and so on.
Will add quite some money to the bill without a proper reimbursement.
If you pay $3.60/gallon and get $1.80 back that will add an additional $14.40/hr @ 8 gallons/hr.
So that would put a 172 at $103.40/hr instead of the advertised $89/hr.
But apart from their reimbursement policy,
that Cessna 152 flight should have been planned with a fuel stop.
Curious as to why neither the student nor the instructor pulled the brake and insisted on refueling.
It's rarely worth risking your life for $20....

[Gary Edwards]

Just to add to this,the guy that was doing his IR training had just completed his ATPL ground school @ NAC:\ must have missed that class on flight planing i guess!!!!:(