Bell 407

[international hog driver]

Seems that I will get the oppotunity to do a B407 endorsment in the next few weeks.

Aany comments, notes or nasties i need to know about before I start.

Cheers IHD

[Thomas coupling]

How is your tail rotor malfunction currency....


http://www.gograph.com/Images-7298/AnimatedGif/redstar.gif

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Thermal runaway.

[CTD]

Don't get wrapped up in that hysteria. There is no evidence right now to suggest the accident in the gulf had anything to do with the previous tail rotor issues on the 407. Bell has flown over 400 flights on instrumented aircraft with the new tail rotor configuration, hitting points up to and including 0.1 second full left pedal inputs at Vne. The data was given to FAA and TC and the configuration approved.

As I said in the other forum, this reminds me of the hysteria surrounding the 76 throwing blades and turbine wheels, the 'Falling Star', the Hu500 lead lag link failures, the AS350 spherical brg failures, the R22 tossing main rotor systems.....etc etc. These problems come up on aircraft, and the certification system takes care of them. Unfortunately, sometimes it hurts. A lot. But hysteria and rumour mongering does not serve anyone.

Now, if you do start to fly the 407, and want some constructive advice.....it's a very simple helicopter with oodles of power. My best piece of advice would be to not panic about the FADEC failure procedures. Many pilots who fly 47s, or 212/205s in manual seem to get overwhelmed by the 407 in manual. Why? I don't know, but it happens. Don't think of it as a 'failure', all that's happening is the helicopter is telling you it doesn't have enough information to control the fuel flow anymore, and it hands the throttle to you. Period.

And make sure your Ng is at 0 before turning off the battery.

Good luck!

[Thomas coupling]

This entry is remarkably similar(almost word for word) to the one Lu Zuckerman drafted in the "justhelicopters" forum!!!?

However...whoever you profess to be (and you should know better Lu), please keep sight of the fact that this is an unadulterated forum where people (short of offensive and libelous language) can air their views freely. One doesn't want an authorotative figure wandering around the forums whipping people into line. Hysteria it is most certainly not, ramblings, maybe. I suspect the hysteria may lie in your camp?

Chill out, go have a cup of tea....relax


http://www.gograph.com/Images-7298/AnimatedGif/redstar.gif

P.S. They have just found the tail section of a helicopter in shallow water local to the crash scene of the 407 that went down. I wonder if it is similar to a 407 tail section?

------------------
Thermal runaway.

[212man]

same hysteria as with the 76 throwing blades and turbines...?

I think in respect to the memory of those innocent people involved in 'blade throwing' 76 you might like to rephrase that remark.

PS. In fairness to Lu, I think you'll find that he was merely quoting the previous thread from Crash test Dummy, then responding to it.

------------------
Another day in paradise

[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 09 January 2001).]

[CTD]

212man. You're right, the language may have been a little flippant. Certainly meant no disrespect to those who've lost their lives or loved ones in 76s or anything else for that matter. I've lost enough friends to this industry to have had that circuit breaker reset years ago. The point was to illustrate that all aircraft experience problems which inevitable either get fixed, or the aircraft fails of its own merits. If any offense was taken, I apologize. By the way, were you in Somalia in 94?

Thomas Coupling, you seem to think it's all a bit of a lark. While preaching the merits of an open forum, without offensive or libelous language, you're quick to make stupid assumptions on an accident which killed someone. Is that not offensive? Believe me, there's no hysteria on this end, but I will try to provide accurate information when it's asked for. Maybe you should try the macrame sites.

[This message has been edited by CTD (edited 10 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by CTD (edited 10 January 2001).]

[407 Driver]

I have 2 years on a 407 and it's the greatest Aircraft that I've ever flown. It may be a perfect little Intermediate, but those darn tailbooms keep falling off?
It's very responsive in flight, crisp accurate control, Longlining is a snap, it just makes you look good.
It has auto-start. After 24 years of holding starters and winding throttles, that took me some getting used to!
The FADEC is extremely accurate with the Nr control, it never droops, hardly overspeeds, but in Manual throttle it's a bit of a bear, way more touchy than a 212. The onboard computer records every parameter, so pilot abuse is not possible without the wrench knowing exactly what you "pulled".
The best thing about the aircraft (other than the (EX) 140Kt speed is the climb rate, it climbs out like a Home-sick Angel. Initial rate of climb at gross is way up towards 2,000 FPM. It's been described as a mini-214 by some(who have 214 time)

Some problems, other than the new 110 Kt VNE (effective today) are:
-A very short distance from Butt to Pedals ..if you're over 5'8" it's going to be uncomfortable to fly for extended periods.
-A very high collective setting in cruise, to the point of having your elbow touch the back wall, uncomfortable at first.
Any more questions, comments email me at: [email protected] Fly Safe!

[407 Driver]

CTD, Good point..

"And make sure your Ng is at 0 before turning off the battery"

You know the Piston Parking excersize I take it, I found that one out too.

[Larry]

Would you guys agree the Bell 407 is the loudest helicopter in its class.....by far ?

While other manufacurers have produced quiet helicopters , Bell makes em louder.

[Semi Rigid]

I totally agree that they are the loudest new helo about. Louder than any BK & when you are at a pad with EC120's & 135's in & out, the 407 is actually obnoxiously loud. Bell, me thinks you paniced to quickly upon learning of the B3 development. Back to the design board for you cause these tree huggers & greenies are not going to go away.

[CTD]

The 407 is a wonderful machine to fly, and certainly a step up from previous generation helicopters. Of course, the comparisons to the 350 are as common as Ford and Chevy.

It will outperform a B2/B3 in some categories, and lags behind it in others. I haven't flown it at altitude, but friends who've worked them in the Himalayas and Rockies say they perform very well. At sea level, on low gear with a hook it scoots along at an honest 140kts. at 85%Q. You can use a 200 or 250 gallon Bambi and blast away at fires, or sling six drums of fuel to your fuel cache. In utility config, you can go full pax full fuel. It has a crisp, firm response and excellent tail rotor authority.

Overhaul costs are less than its competition, and will get better when the target lives are reached, and product support is the best in the business.

On the down side, it's not as comfortable as the A-Star, and doesn't have as much baggage space. The debate over "open cabin vs control tunnel" is split 50 /50. Some people like the open cabin concept for the visibility it offers. Others, like some corporate, law enforcement, or those who carry frieght internally prefer the cockpit be separate. Whatever. What that box beam cabin does offer is a high degree of structural strength. I always felt exposed in the A-Star, and found it akin to sitting on lawn furniture. Not much protection around you.

What it boils down to is this......it is a great performing aircraft, as are all the newer generation helicopters. It has gone through some growing pains, as did its competition (remember?), but like the A-Star, will rise above that and find its place as a great helicopter.

There is a lot of speculation on the latest accident, however it did not fit the profile of the previous three. With the new configuration in the back, left pedal full pitch is limited to 17-19º with the pedal stop engaged. This will not allow blade - boom contact in cruise (far from it), as proven to the FAA and TC in flight test. The investigation continues so comment on the accident is not prudent.

[RW-1]

Only been in one twice, what a marvelous machine! (If sex had skids, it would be a Bell ... :))

I can't make comparisons, however for the unexplained tail strikes lately, see my other poist, to which I've included the AD.

[CTD]

During the recent discussions about the 407, here and on other forums, there have been comments made on the tail rotor pedal position being uncomfortable. Anyone have any comments on this, or how it could be improved?

[407 Driver]

I flew our 407 for 5 hours on Saturday, and had a leg cramp for 24 hours afterwards. We need more length in the pedal adjustment, (I'm only 5"8" tall) The good thing...it would have taken a LOT more hours in any other intermediate to complete the work. Fantastic aircraft...even at 110K.

[407 Driver]

I agree and "second" everything that CTD mentioned.
I'm operating one of the higher altitude 407's in Canada, and it offers spectacular performance.
--I have "Placed" a measured 2,000 Lb load at 7,800 ft (+5c),
--I routinely fly snow-guns at a local ski area (1,800 Lb @ 8,500', -5c)
--I have picked up 5 + gear (winter) at 11,500'with 1.5 hrs fuel, no problem.

I could go on...

Astar vs 407...(Ford vs Chevvy?) I have a lot of time in 350's and don't miss them at all. If some guys like them, Great, then I don't have to fly one.

If you have any questions, send them to [email protected], I'd be glad to talk more about my 407 experiences.

[Larry]

LA City Police flew 3 407s for 3 years until replacing them with AS-350B2s. My understanding was they didnt like the tight cockpit with mission equipment installed.They had the typical early problems
and were really sick of all the ADs.
No complaints about power as ive seem them lift off with 6 fat cops and a full bag of fuel on a 95degree day.This included the weight of the nightsun , Flir and police radio package.
They also liked the 140kt speed until it was restricted.
The AS-350B2s more comfortable cockpit and 10 years previous experience with AS-350B1s made LAPDs replacement choice easy.
And of course Eurocopter was thrilled selling them 8 new helicopters.

[Lu Zuckerman]

I don't believe this problem exists on military aircraft because they are designed to be operated by the 5th to the 95th percentile individual.

------------------
The Cat

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Lu,

Surely a 5'4" woman fits in between the 5th & 95th percentile. Same for a 5'8" Man?

Edited because eye carnt spel

[This message has been edited by Ewan Whosearmy (edited 31 January 2001).]

[Lu Zuckerman]

Dear Ewan

The Bell 206 although it served as the OH 58 in the military was not built to military specifications and therefore did not comply with Mil-Std-1472 Human engineering design criteria for military systems, equipment and facilities.

------------------
The Cat

[MBJ]

In my opinion the jokers who design most helicopter cockpits made damn sure they never had to fly in them.

The older 206 models are particularly vile for anyone over 6ft.(I hadn't realised the more compact amongst us, Whirlygirl, also had a problem) There is NEVER enough pedal adjustment despite the fact that it would cost peanuts to provide more screwthread and detachable "turn-around" pedals. An idea for one of the accessory manufacturers perhaps?

[pspav8or]

I fly Bell 206B;L-3; and 407 helicopters. You can replace your 407 pedals with 206 pedals for better comfort. Ask your chief mechanic or Bell Service Center about it. Ofcourse all it takes is money.

------------------
D.Brigham
Pennsylvania State Police Aviation

[Whirlygirl]

Lu.. Did I say I flew military?? No... so what is your point??? Because I don't see one.
My comments are in response CTD's request for opinions on the pedal placement and adjustability and whether or not pilots find them satisfactory. I don't. Being the Short arse that I am, AS I stated in my previous posting.. I use an obus form that allows me to sit further forward in the seat so I can comfortably reach the pedals. Now, because I use the obus form, I sit further forward in the seat than was probably ever considered, and as a result of the way I'm sitting the position of the cyclic is now no longer comfortable for me. So Solving one problem created another.

How can anyone correct this????... a better designed cockpit with more consideration to the variety of people working in them perhaps? Would it be a huge deal for BHT to make a design change in the adjustment limits of the pedals, A more comfortable seat? An adjustable seat? I don't know...

[This message has been edited by Whirlygirl (edited 03 February 2001).]

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: Whirlygirl

I simply stated that this kind of problem does not exist on a helicopter that was designed to Mil Specs, which require human engineering as a part of the design. The 206 was designed for a competition for a light observation helicopter for the US Army but there were no fixed design requirements. The Bell model lost out to the Hughes 369. Bell realized the potential for the basic design but it was pug ugly. They turned it over to Raymond Loewy an industrial designer and the 206 as we know it today resulted. He however did nothing relative to the ergonomics of the interior. Thus your problem resulted.


If you are the exclusive pilot in this 206 maybe you can check with Bell to see if it is possible to modify the cyclic stick to put a gooseneck in it to compensate for your forward position in the seat. That way you can reach the pedals and still have a comfortable stick position.

------------------
The Cat

[This message has been edited by Lu Zuckerman (edited 03 February 2001).]

[Whirlygirl]

Unfortunatly Lu, I don't have any such luxury. I'm not trying to create a specific case for myself.. I was merely providing an example of one of the problems we folks who fly the 206 encounter.. It's no more comfortable for someone who's 6'4" a different set of problems though. You are probably quite right that this "Raymond Lowery" guy didn't stop to consider human ergonomics... but since CTD asked.. I thought I'd answer with my own 2 cents worth....
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif :) http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by Whirlygirl (edited 04 February 2001).]

[DPW]

I have about 500 hours in the 407 now and at 6'0" I haven't noticed a problem with pedal positioning, although there are other ergonomic limitations. I have about 350 hours in the 206L and I feel more comfortable in that cockpit than the 407.

[rotormatic]

See:

http://www.bellcustomer.com/files/Storage/IL%20407-01-61.pdf

[widgeon]

Any comments regarding the $40 mill law suit award against Bell for the Brazilian accident.

[PANews]

This award surprised me. At the time my understanding of the accident was that although it fitted the tail rotor problem scenario this accident occurred after Bell had issued directions for its solution [I cannot recall whether it was an SB or an AD at that stage]. The accident airframe had not been modified when it had a tail strike and landed hard. Both fatalities were caused by the passengers [panicking and?]leaving the aircraft and walking into the main rotor disc [which was lower because of skid collapse].

There may be more detail on the NTSB page [I have not refreshed my memory on this one].

This was one of the last instances I expected Bell to cough up the cash.

No doubt it was more complex than it seemed at the time.

[407 Driver]

Interesting...I also thought these fatalities were caused by the passengers running away into the M/R Blades?

The pilot did an exceptional job landing the aircaft. He certainly deserves credit in that respect.

I mention this type of scenario in my safety talks, ....why leave a perfectly safe situation and run away into a fatal one..?

[Cyclic Hotline]

The first part of this award, must deal with the loss of life following the failure they experienced on the aircraft. The deaths were directly caused by the response to the initial failure of the tail rotor.

The second part of this concerns the judges comments regarding the attempt by Bell to "stonewall" the entire lawsuit.

Quote;
He also said Bell withheld information about the crash and the helicopter. Less than two months before a scheduled trial, Bell produced a 3-foot stack of documents and computerized data, not including the Brazilian government's crash report.

U.S. District Judge James Lawrence King opened the door to punitive damages and severely restricted Bell's witnesses as punishment for what Marks called "a pattern of stonewalling.''

The law may be an ass, but don't make an ass of the legal system!


Here is the NTSB accident report relating to the accident.

NTSB Identification: IAD99RA032

Accident occurred Friday, February 26, 1999 at BELO H., BRAZIL
Aircraft:Bell 407, registration:
Injuries: 2 Fatal, 1 Serious.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

About 1230 local Brazilian time, February 26, 1999, a Bell 407 helicopter, registration PT-YVI, Bell serial no. 53119, operated by Banco Rural, sustained substantial damage following loss of tail rotor control and an autorotation to a hard landing. Of the three persons on board, the commercially certificated pilot sustained serious injuries and both passengers were fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the corporate flight that originated at a ranch, approximately 20 nautical miles northeast of Pampulha Airport, near the city of Belo Horizonte. No flight plan was filed. The pilot was in radio contact with Pampulha Tower. The flight was conducted under Brazilian CAA flight rules.

The pilot reported that the helicopter was in cruise flight, straight and level at 110 knots indicated airspeed (KIAS), 3,500 feet mean sea level (MSL) and 700 feet above ground level (AGL), when he felt the left rudder pedal move forcefully forward and heard a loud bang. The helicopter yawed left and pitched nose-down. He regained control and performed an autorotation to a hard landing, sustaining back injuries. Both passengers, including a bank president, then exited the helicopter and ran into still-turning main rotor blades. Part of the tailboom, with the tail gearbox and tail rotor assembly still attached, was found approximately 800 yards from the impact site.

The weather was witnessed as visual meteorological conditions, in drizzle, beneath an approximately 1,000 foot overcast.

The helicopter was powered by a Rolls-Royce Allison 250-C47 engine, serial no. 847151, with a time since new of 341 hours.

The pilot, age 51, had flown approximately 12,000 helicopter hours, including 340 hours in the Bell 407.

Under the head of the investigation commission, from Terceiro Servico Regional de Aviacao Civil, Brazil, accompanied by an accredited representative from the Transportation Safety Board (TSB), Canada, and investigators from Bell Helicopter, Fort Worth, Texas, and Rolls Royce Allison, Indianapolis, Indiana, examinations of the tail rotor assembly were conducted, and two previous Bell 407 partial tailboom separations were reviewed. Prior to the February 26, 1999, accident, an FAA airworthiness directive had lowered the Bell 407 velocity, never exceed (Vne), from 140 KIAS to 110 KIAS. Bell Helicopter provided a technical bulletin that incorporated a left pedal stop, and if installed, the Vne was permitted back up to 125 KIAS. Following the February 26, accident, flight was forbidden without the pedal stop and, if installed, limited to 110 KIAS. Subsequently, Bell Helicopter incorporated an engineering change that effectively moved the tail rotor yoke farther outboard from the tailboom and provided other changes at the tail rotor assembly. With the engineering changes incorporated, Vne has been permitted back to 130 KIAS.

The tail rotor servo was bench-tested and disassembled at its manufacturer, Hydraulic Research Textron, Valencia, California, under NTSB supervision (Engineering Investigator Frank Hilldrup, from Headquarters, Washington, D.C.), with TSB Canada and Bell Helicopter investigators also present. The servo tested properly and no evidence was found of a previous mechanical problem. Contamination was found in the hydraulic fluid and is being further examined by TSB Canada.

For further information contact: Head of Investigation Commission, Lieutenant Colonel Antonio Augusto Walther de Almeida, tel. (55) 21 532-5431 or 240-3701, fax (55) 21 240-3701.

U.S. Accredited Representative: Thomas R. Conroy, NTSB, Washington, D.C., tel. (202) 314-6314

[B Sousa]

Bell continues to cough up Money on suits. Another one came out a short time ago in California for $8+ Million to the widow of a Pilot killed when his Bell 206L series ran out of fuel. Yes ran out of fuel. From what I gather the award was based on problems involved in fuel transfer pumps, guages etc. The true info is out there on NTSB reports, I dont have the exact.
Widow will collect more money than the poor guy could have ever made flying and it will be passed on to future customers.
Remember when a Cessna 182 was about $50k...........they are now around $200k.. Inflation, NO.........Lawyers, Yes.

[StevieTerrier]

Anybody out there fly the 407? If so, can you tell me :. .(1) the current status re. the VNE restrictions . . . .(2) what sort of loading (pax / fuel) can you expect on a typical corporate-equipped machine? Or to put it another way if you have max fuel, what do we have left for the pax, and if we fill it up with average size pax, how much fuel can we get in?? . .. .Thanks in advance

[CTD]

Vne is 140KIAS. .. .407 in utility config = 2850 lbs. .7 SOB @ 188each = 1316 lbs. .Full fuel = 869 lbs. .Gross weight would be 5035, leaving 215 lbs for cargo.. .. .With aux tank, fuel is 1009, that would still put you 75 lbs under gross with a full load of bodies.. .. .The heaviest corporate ship I've seen, with a 3 axis autopilot, more radios than the average person could talk on in a lifetime, and pop out floats weighed 3260.. .Full fuel 869. .6 souls = 1128. .Gross = 5257, so you're seven lbs over. Bring a girl.. .. .Hope that helps you.. .. .BTW, if you carry them externally, you could SLING almost 13 people with fill fuel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> Need a warm climate though.

[StevieTerrier]

Thanks for that CTD. No shortage of power there, then. Sling load of 13...mmmm...that would bring a good return $$$ on pleasure flying days!. .. .If you did have it loaded to max all-up, how would she perform on an average UK summer day of say 15c (I wish!) Power to spare,or staggering into the air? What sort of weight would allow a vertical climb out of a tight landing site?. .. .Thanks. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 08:59: Message edited by: StevieTerrier ]</small>

[CTD]

At 15C at Max internal gross, you can vertical at over 1000FPM if you're silly enough to want to. . .. .At 6000 lbs, S/L, 20C, you can hover OGE and do left pedal turns. If you want to.

[b407driver]

The above three posts assume you are at sea level. Put the thing at 5000 feet or above in the summer, and it will do none of the above.. .. .I love the aircraft, but Bell's supposed 'Hot & High' aircraft is great as long as it's not high! Now, if it performed like an AS350-B3 at altitude, then they'd have something!

[407 Driver]

We operate our utility 407's at altitudes of 6000 to 12000 ft with no problems. I've set 2,000 lb sling loads HOGE at 8,000' +10c. I've moved 1,800 lb+ snow guns at up to 9,000 ft with 400 lb of fuel (-5c). . .We routinely fly full seats/full gear plus a huge ski basket (all summer) with 600-700 lbs fuel, keeping vertical performance. It may not keep up to a B3, I don't know...never had the opportunity to fly one or even see a performance chart, but our 407 will out do any B2 that I've flown, and will certainly perform to the Bell performance specs in the Flight Manual.

[Tokoloshe]

Did some power-line construction with a 407 a few months ago, hauling 850kg sections on a 10 metre strop. Elevation varied btw. 2 & 3000 ft and daily temps varying between 15C in the morning to the low 30's in the afternoon. Reduced fuel to about 300lbs when it got hot but never had any problems with the machine. . .The 407 does not like it when you get above 5000ft and into the 30's though. Have been operating one doing fire-fighting with a Bambi bucket and at altitude about 600litres is about the limit.. .Despite all that a fantastic machine! Never flown a B3 either but may get one this season. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

[paco]

Maybe returning to UK in the near future. Got 407, AS355, 206, H500 time, 6900 TT. Could get an IR if it seems worth it.

cheers

Phil

[widgeon]

Paco what you doing in St Kitts ?

[paco]

Whirling tourists around at horrendous heights over the falls - how about you?

Phil

[Helinut]

Paco,

I am not 100% certain, but I think it is likely/possible that the Bell 407 has not yet been certified by the CAA for the UK. Certainly, at one stage they were raising various questions about the FADEC and other stuff. I cannot recall ever seeing a G reg 407.

[piloteddy]

Acording to the CAA's website there are only 3 G reg 407's

Heres a link:

http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/aircraft_register/ginfo/search.asp


Edit: You'll have to type in Bell 407 in the aircraft type box because it wont let you link straight to the results

Hope it helps!

[paco]

Thanks for that - I thought I saw one going to someone in Bradford.

The FADEC seems to be alright now - they made the programmers talk to some pilots and got the bugs sorted, though I still believe it's a single board 8088 (powerful, huh?). At any rate, they still use a RS232 connection! Hopefully moire than 52K.

phil

[The Nr Fairy]

I've checked the UK G-INFO database for 407s and 427s in the UK and there's only 2 407s.

Does anyone else know of a 407/427 in the UK, on a foreign register ? And - as an aside, is there a web site listing B407/427 production ?

[PANews]

Rotorhub lists the [35!] Bell 427s in a production database but it seems that via there at least no-one has thought to have a go at the 407....

It may be noteworthy that in a recent issue of Flight it seems the manufacturers are going to re-launch the 427 again..... and offer IFR!

The [via] Rotorhub list suggests that most 427s remain on the US and Canadian register.

[widgeon]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/activepages/ccarcs/en/exports_e.asp?x_lang=e

last 407 exported is 5378 ( assume 378 total production)
427 IS 56036 ( assume 36 total production).

18 entries in US register for 427 .

http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/activepages/ccarcs/en/impnexp2_e.asp?x_lang=e

for table by month.

[Autorotate]

For what its worth I know there are three Bell 427s in Manilla, two seperate owners, at least one in Poland, one with Bahrain Police, and one in Israel (Chim Nir Aviation).

:E

[Helinut]

I believe there were one or two privately operated 407s on the Irish register that spent a lot of time in the UK.

The CAA took a long time to certify the 407 - I believe they had concerns about the FADEC - of course they would have no choice to accept them now - EASA ensures a national authority cannot hold up aircraft in this way anymore.

[407 Driver]

Widgeon, perhaps you should recheck your info, the last aircraft exported was 578 on the website you gave us, not 378 ???

My information says that the 407 series is nearing the 600 aircraft mark.......

...from the TC registration website ....."C-GZMF Serial No 53576
Common Name Bell Model 407...."

[Autorotate]

In Australia and NZ there are not many 407s and no 427s. There is a corporate 407 in Sydney VH-IPG, the Hunter Region rescue 407 based out of Tamworth I think and Buzz Aviations one. None over in Kiwiland.

:E

[407 Driver]

Autorotate, What you need in your beautiful country is someone to support the 407, and show the customers what it can do against all of those old D's, Super D's, 355F's and other EC products.

Hmmmm, Perhaps that someone should be me ???

[Autorotate]

There used to be a 407 based in Auckland, owned by merchant bankers Fay Richwhite but they ended up trading it in on an EC130. It was then sold to Classic Helicopters in Utah where it is still based from what I understand.

Bell's agents down here leave a heck of a lot to be desired and now that Sikorsky have bought Heli tech Bell actually has no one representing them from what I understand. Apart from a couple of recent 412s for the EMS contract in Victoria there has not been a new Bell product sold into this part of the world for a long time.

Eurocopter is kicking their ass big time. Here in Kiwiland we have 400 or so helicopters and most of them are EC products. We have a lot of the latest toys as well with the following here:

5 x EC130s
1 x EC135-T2
1 x S-76

Plus many others. It would be great to see Bell get some new aircraft in here but they need to become more proactive in their marketing. It seems like all they care about is the V-22 program.

Autorotate.

[ppheli]

There have never been any operational 427s in the UK, only demos (and perhaps one, max two of those only!). As for 407s the current fleet is one in UK, four in Eire and this is the full fleet list including foreign reg ones.....

407s in UK
==========
53186 G-GAJW based Cambridgeshire, private op
53208 G-EJTT sold to US
53375 G-IORB sold to US (was prev op as N407RB by same owner)

407s in Eire
==========
53137 G-DCDB based Knocksedan, private op, occasional charter via Eurojet (was previously op as C-GCDB and orig N7238A with same owner)
53282 EI-STR
53331 EI-DBN bought 2003
53551 EI-GAN bought 2003

[widgeon]

thanks for correcting me 407 drvr , just missed out one of the numbers. should be 53578 last one exported total production 578.

Quite a lot more than B3 production I would imagine , EC's serial numbers include b, b1 ba b2 and b3 so numbers are hard to find.

[PANews]

Helinut your statement ....EASA ensures a national authority cannot hold up aircraft in this way anymore....

.....is not totally correct. There are a number of outstanding 'issues' on a number of airframes that each National Authority has obliged EASA to rethink under the so called Schedule 10(1). It will take a long time to work through as EASA is barely staffed at the moment. Types facing the ire of the CAA include the Notar singles. Other nations have different beefs that I am unfamiliar with.

That said any new airframe types [and those not currently listed as due for special treatment] are automatically waved through everywhere now as soon as there is an EASA OK.

[The Nr Fairy]

So, no point in doing the course for the 407 then :D

[Bravo73]

Oh, I don't know...



From flightinternational.com:


Job Title: Helicopter Pilots
Position type: Permanent
Region: Republic of Ireland
Company: Eurojet
Posted: Tuesday 4 November 2003
Job type(s): Flight crew

Description: Due to continued expansion of the company's business jet and helicopter charter, management and maintenance operations in the UK and Ireland, we wish to recruit the following additional personnel.
Dublin based
Bell 407 and Eurocopter EC-120 (Ref: H/DUB)
Minimum criteria: Ability to hold JAR-CPL(H), 1,000 hrs TT. 500 hrs turbine – experience on type preferred.
Type training will be available to otherwise suitable candidates.
Applications should be in writing with C.V. (marking appropriate reference on envelope) to: The Administration Manager at the address given below.
Closing date for applications: 21st November 2003
Applicants failing to meet minimum criteria will not receive a response
Address: Executive Jet Centre
Belfast International Airport, Belfast

[ppheli]

OK, so this Eurojet one is G-DCDB as I noted above. Owned by Paycourt Ltd, alias singer Chris De Burgh, and operated by Eurojet. Take a look at this on G-INFO database and it shows hours as 458 and CofA expiry at 19-Oct-05.

The hours on G-INFO are from the date the CofA was last issued, ie 20-Oct-02 (expiry date less "three years less a day"). So, given the aircraft was delivered new and is a 1997 aircraft, we can assume that it has flown 458 hours in 5 years, so Eurojet flies it 90 hours a year. Still interested?

============

and to add some more to my notes earlier in the thread

53186 G-GAJW was previously with AJWalter Avn (who replaced it with a 109 Power) and originally reg N52245 UK based with JJB Sports (who replaced it with a 430).

[Bronx]

The 407 is a big success for Bell. The 427 isn't so far.

Orders for the 407 are 35 percent up over last year. Life Flight Eagle just ordered two to replace the BK117 saying it's better technology at lower cost.
They reckon to deliver more than 30 412s by the end of the year, the best number since 1998.
Bell say 23 percent of 2003 deliveries are to new customers and this years figures will be 30 percent up on 2002 by year-end.

I'd kinda like to see Bell back up there again.

Is it gonna happen?

[Autorotate]

Bronx - I was talking with people in San Diego and after the fires they are looking at buying six 412s for fire fighting duties so that will add to their numbers.

I think you will find that this happens a lot in Southern Cal now, striking while the irons hot.

I saw the drawings for their new Jetranger size aircraft and its probably the most gorgeous looking helicopter I have ever seen, and it includes a Fenestron tail which surprised me. If they get this aircraft up and running, in its modular type form, then Bell will start getting a lot of the market back from Eurocopter because they have the best customer service by miles.

The 407 is a great machine and also one of my favourites.

:E

[The Nr Fairy]

I guess my original post was directed at asking whether it was worg doing the 407 rating or not.

Guess not. Unless someone wants do buy one, base it at Thruxton, and specifiy on the insurance that I'm the sole CPL allowed to fly it !

BTW - evening Pete and Tim.

Nr F
That seems to be the answer, and the discussion's broadened, so I've amended your topic title.
Heliport.

[Hilico]

A consistent message I get, referring to an earlier post above, is that Bell's customer support is excellent ("almost a religion at Bell" was one quote) whereas even Bigay (at the time) admitted Eurocopter could do better.

Anyone got any examples?

[belly tank]

Hi All,

I remember reading a few years ago an article that Bell was developing a Jetranger replacement Titled the JRX.

I saw an artist impression and it looked like a smaller version of a 407 with a 4 bladed composite main rotor, an open cabin similair to the EC range without the centre pillar.

there was talk that Bell had dropped the idea, but has anyone heard if they are still looking into the concept.

PS: i dont think they will ever replace the J-Ranger( well i hope not) they are a great helo and i feel at home every time i Jump in the seat

Cheers Guys any info would be great.

[ppheli]

Bronx
30 deliveries of 412s by the end of the year -yes, possible, but how many are military? I guess most/all of the Saudi order for 16 are in your figure. I seem to recall 2 or 3 years ago (perhaps more) that Bell said they had decided to stop developing any new 412 variants.

[407 Driver]

IMHO, Bell has looked after our 407's royally, could be that we're the largest Canadian operator of the type, and/or run a complete Bell fleet (206BIII, L3, 407, 205-17, 212HP).
I'm flying a ship with a new utility Interior that Bell installed for "test" purposes, quite a bit lighter than the original one, and tough.
If we ever encounter problems, the local Bell service tech is here in a flash.

Never ever saw an EC service tech in person? ...or do they even exist? :D :p

Regarding operating the 407, I've never flown any type that was so agile, responsive, reliable, and most of all just plain old FUN !

[Avnx EO]

ppheli:

My guess is that your guess would be wrong... The 16 Saudi ships you mention were actually a split build, with Agusta making the last 8 of the 16. Most of Bell's 8 were delivered last year.

[spinningwings]

Hey 407 Driver ....

Ever flown the Bo105, Bk117 or the Hu500 !!!?

Plenty of fun plenty of response very confidence inspiring ...


:} :ok:

[eurocopter2]

I have heard a rumour that Bell is designing a replacement to the Jetranger.Can anyone enlighten me on that.

[belly tank]

eurocopter2

I read an article in business and commercial aviation about 18 months ago that Bell were talking about this.

They had a photo or and artist impression i should say and it looked like a 206 sized 407.

The picture showed a 4 bladed composite main rotor system, an open cabin layout similair to the EC range, doing away with the centre pillar.

It looked like a very nice helicopter in concept. They called it the JRX Program.

There was some talk that bell had dropped the idea, but i dont know. Im sure if they ever went down that track with this new concept it would surely be a great little ship.

This is all i know be it true or not.

cheers!

[407 Driver]

I'll bet that they all are, but unfortunately I haven't had that pleasure yet. ...Oh does 0.2 in a 520 Notar count as experience ??? :O

[407 Driver]

This is all "old news" from 2002, but here is a picture and a press release from HAI 2002...

http://www.246.ne.jp/~heli-ss/bell-jrx.jpg


.....Bell is cautiously floating a new growth edition of its venerable JetRanger. Borrowing a term from the automotive industry, Bell is calling the so-called JRX a “concept” copter and releasing little information on it, other than an artist’s conception. Basically a beefier JetRanger with wider cabin, lavish cockpit, cabin glazing and presumably an extra passenger seat or two, the JRX will be the subject of extensive talks with possible users for the next year or so, with a possible production decision pondered by either year’s end or next year’s Heli-Expo.

....Details, also, of a new wider, bigger, four-bladed JetRanger derivative, known so far as the “JRX,” are also expected. Should the program be greenlighted, it would be the first new civil helo program from a major manufacturer since Bell and program partner Agusta revealed plans to develop its AgustaBell AB 139 medium twin three years ago. (The AB 139 program, by the way, is doing well, headed toward year-end certification and present here in both VIP and utility mockup form.)

Preliminary reports and artist’s conceptions portray the JRX to be a bubble-faced stretched JetRanger, an airframe expanded in much the same way as Eurocopter’s EC130, introduced with a maximum of fanfare at last year’s Heli-Expo show in Anaheim. Target market for the EC130 was the air tour market; as to Bell’s target market, only the details from this morning’s press conference will tell.

[Shawn Coyle]

Mixed news on whether Bell is pursuing the modular helicopter or not.
Have to wait for a more formal announcement, but Helicopter World recently reported that it had been dropped as a program.

[Dynamic Component]

I'm not bashing the Bell 407-just wanting some opinions.
Why is it that so many 407s have crashed?
Is it because there are so many of them out there?
Are there not just as many AS350s out there?

Is the tailrotor prolem really sorted out??? :uhoh:
I do like the aircraft, but would not send my Family in it for a flight.
Then again-I will probably send my Mother-Inlaw:E
I know the 350s also have their problems(jackstall), but it is avoidable.

Any coments??:}

[407 Driver]

The facts are that 2 have crashed in the past 2 weeks, both from the same company in the same area. In the 6 months prior to this recent wave of accidents, the 407 fleet has actually done quite well, the last reported (NTSB) occurrence was back in May.Worldwide, There are about 600 - 407's flying to an estimated 2,500 to 3,000 - 350 series (just a wild guess?)
I can tell you of about a dozen 350 incidents in the same 6 month time frame. (check www.ntsb.gov for USA accident/Incident stats)
Jack stall is a concern, (and you are correct, it is somewhat aviodable), but there have been several unexplained HYDproblems, resulting in catastrauphic accidents (OMNR B2 crashing inverted, high time pilot, CAVU day) ...plus other unexplanied accidents, (BA into the Grand Canyon wall, 7 killed) a B3 rolled up on an airport Mesa AZ, several other
B3 failures, including another engine failure last week in AZ, and the 355 in England this week.
If you sit back and look at numbers of accidents/Incidents Vs fleet size and hours flown, I'd hazard a guess that they both have
similar and very unaccaptable numbers....after all 1 is too many !

I'd say that there is a big concern over 2 accidents and 1 fatality in 2 weeks, but don't be jumping in with both feet.....I'd be waiting for the NTSB to report, and believe me, they must be extremely busy on these 2 files.

I have about 1,500 on 407's now and about 2,200 on 350's, so feel quite comfortable comparing the types. IMHO, I certainly prefer flying the 407, for a variety of reasons, one being the structure of the cabin area.

Regardless, there is a family in mourning in the US, missing their father, husband, mate, so for that, I offer my sincere condolences.

[BlenderPilot]

We get most of the 407´s around here in for service eventually, and the joke is that 407 pilots should be issued ¨test pilot¨ badges. There has been a long list of problems since the aircraft came out, the TR issue is not completely fixed, its only been patched by a pedal travel solenoid, and then the FADEC does all sorts of strange things, and it rarely works the same in two aircraft. We recently had one destroyed due to a sudden engine failure w/6 on board, the failure ocurred at 9000 FT and it landed at 8000, nobody hurt which talks good about the crashworthiness, a 350 would have either burst in flames (as usual) or have severe cockpit intrusions.

When everything is OK the machine is unbelieveable, fast comfortable, and manuverable, but I still feel more comfortable in a 206L4.

[Lama Bear]

407 Pilot said...

" one being the structure of the cabin area."

I have no 407 time but considerable 206, 206L, Lama and Astar experience. My experience makes me more confident in the Eurocopter design.

1. The Bell design has a much weaker floor. There are only the skids and a thin layer of honeycomb between you and the ground/stumps/stobs/rocks.

2. The transmision mounting of the Eurocopter design is much stronger. In almost every instance of a 206/407 wreck the transmission becomes displaced. The mast and transmission of the Eurocopter design becomes a roll bar that the Bell design does not duplicate. I have never heard of the transmission/mast becoming displaced in a survivable French wreck.

3. The Bell design has three fuel cells in the passenger compartment. They are, again, only protected by one layer of honey comb and their own integrity. They are ony isolated from the passenger compartment by another layer of honeycomb. Not to mention in the 206L/407 I'm sitting on one!

4. There is a structural, cantilever deck extending past my feet in the Eurocopter. The first structural member in the 206/407 series cabin is behind me at the broom closet. The fiberglass around me in the 206/407 offeres scant protection. My personal favorite in this area is the Hughes 500 but that is another story.

5. This is pure personal preference and off the subject of structural integrity but I will take a Turbomeca engine ANY day over an Allison.

Jim

[407 Driver]

Valid points Lama Bear, although I must offer a few differences of opinion.
The lower bathtub in a 206-206-407 is very strong, and does extend to the T/R pedals.
There is no fuel tank under you seat...assuming you are the pilot. There is fuel under the rear seat and midship seats. personally, I have not seen these rupture, but then I have rarely attended a light or intermediate Bell accident.
The 350 fuel tank is in a bomb proof location, but that's basically where the passengers sit in a Bell, a very well protected area. The Bell transmissions have been known to wander, but rarely impact the survivablity in that rear compartment, be it 206-206L-or 407.

You're assuming that the 350 accident does not roll over, you must admit that there is virtually no protection above you. The mast as a roll bar? in many cases the Star does not shatter nor shed all blades, so you have to contend with spinning shrapnel. (as with most types) I have seen that take place.
I have some interesting pics, but it may be of poor judgement to post them here, I could email you what I have (so unfortunately) seen.
Our company buys and rebuilds many of the worlds 407 wrecks, I have crawled around many of them, and find the cabin area to be quite well protected in most cases. (ie Delaware State Police, Louisiana State, Salta, Chile to name a few wrecks)
I have 11,000 flying Alison engines, and 2,200 flying Ariels, (the remainder is sweet old twin Pratts!) In my experiences, only Ariels have let me down, and big-time.
I fully agree with you on the 500, although I have no time on type.
This whole argument will never go away, It's all Ford Vs Chevvy, Apple Vs PC, Miller Vs Coors, etc,...

What ever your operating or what ever your preferences are, stay safe down there Lama. That's all that matters at the end of the day.

[MrMoggy]

Hello,
with ref to A-Star BA into the Grand Canyon Wall (7 killed)...well, that's our beat, I'm just down the road. Suffice it to say, diplomatically in this forum, you A-Star drivers need NOT worry about some secret mechanical snafu on that bird. It had NIX to do with the machine I promise. Nada. That's all I'll say, except that I'm amazed it didn't happen much earlier...
Read the NTSB report "between the lines".
As regards crashworthiness of the A-Stars.... we had one hover taxi into wires (Guiness & the rubber bouncing ball), and it peeled wide open. I posted pics on the ALEA site. Roof lets go where it joins the windshield, and now you're pilot of a convertible. My 1st choice: don't crash. 2nd choice: H.500
3rd choice: Bell 206/OH58 27th choice: A-Star.
But they fly gorgeously.

Fly safe :ok:

[Heliport]

Seems the 407 is still a popular machine - Bell say orders are 35% up on last year.

[Dynamic Component]

Just a Theory:)

Spoke to a pilot who was in one of the first 407 tailrotor seperation accidents.He managed to land the beast in one peace.

This is his explenation:
"I was flying along by myself doing about 126kts indicated when all of a sudden the tail yawed to the left. I entered a auto and landed safely.My explenation is that the leading edge on the t/r blade delaminated causing enough friction to brake the shaft.The blades then flaped excessively and cut off the tail with the remaining momentum."

:}
He's theory did sound convincing.
Could this be true:confused: :uhoh: :ugh:

[407 Driver]

I'm thinking that such a failure should also have caused a torque spike, which should have been recorded in the FADEC memory? After all, there would have to be a lot of power added to break the shaft, the governing system would have added power to maintain RRPM as that blade failed?

just throwing out thoughts.

[Flying Lawyer]

I've been told PHI has grounded its 407 fleet.

My source told me a fault with the No.3 turbine is suspected following recent crashes and that, with Rolls Royce support, PHI is replacing it throughout its entire fleet of about 35 aircraft.

Fact? Or false rumour?

[PANews]

Unfortunate timing perhaps ... a new press release has come in..

The Bell 407 fleet has surpassed the 1,000,000 flight hours mark. The major milestone was reached in November. One million hours, that equals a little more than 114 years or just less than 11 and ½ decades or around 41,667 days. No matter what terms you use to describe it, 1 million hours is a lot of time.

A lot of it about ... MD just annouced 500,000 NOTAR fleet hours...

[Notar fan]

.......With a struggle......:\ ....its a labour of love:)

[Gomer Pylot]

From what I hear, there is a bulletin out on the turbine blades, some were defective and recalled, but more were found defective when they were inspected. Rolls-Royce may have a big problem here. The PHI fleet has been grounded indefinitely, it seems, and are being covered by 206s for the time being. It might behoove other operators to do the same thing. People are dying in 407s, and not inspecting them could be found to be negligence if lawsuits were to be filed, leading to very large jury awards. Rolls-Royce could have lots of liability here. Just speculation, you understand.

[md 600 driver]

which engine have they in the 407 steve

[leading edge]

As Gomer says the PHI 407 fleet remains grounded due to suspected engine issues with the C47. According to sources, PHI will not "unground" the fleet until suspect engines have been replaced.

[Hippolite]

PHI 407s with new engines are to be back flying this week.

[zalt]

STRANGE - From the ASB CEB–A–72–6048 issued on 2nd OCTOBER (and revised on 6th) and further covered by Bell ASB 407-03-61 (issued 21nd NOVEMBER):

"Recently, an incident was experienced in which a 4th–stage turbine wheel (23066744) was found to have an over blended, thin trailing edge. Although blending is a common procedure for turbine wheels, in this particular case the turbine wheel blade trailing edge was blended beyond print requirements. All Rolls-Royce Model 250–C30, –C40 and –C47 series 4th–stage turbine wheels (23066744), S/N X504345 and earlier require a one-time inspection to verify that the blades do not have a thin trailing edge."

"For 4th–stage turbine wheels (23066744, S/N HX76702 to HX76755): Compliance Code 2. Turbine wheels which have over 1000 hours must be inspected within the next 150 hours. Turbine wheels which have less than 1000 hours must be inspected within the next 300 hours or at 1000 hours, whichever comes first."

Inspection is with a simple go-no gauge and can be done installed. Failure requires removal of wheel and fitment of new blades.

NOW.... OPTIONS
a) this ASB could be just a coincidence and there is a further problem with 3rd stage (though no ASB or FAA EAD issued as yet to my knowledge)
or
b) 10 weeks after the ASB is issued, an operator with many affected 407s with >1000 hours on their turbine wheels have used up the 150 hours and not having yet done the checks are thus grounded
or
c) 10 weeks on the inspection failure rate is outstripping the overhaul shops' ability to replace the blades
or
d) things have moved on, the problem is (or is seen as) more serious and PHI have judged the inspection is not sufficient

[Hippolite]

Zalt

Problem suspected as per Flying Lawyer with No.3 wheel, not No.4 wheel.

Your (d) is correct and PHI will replace suspect engines as well as replace all wheels on a continuous basis at less than 1000 hours total time.

Hip:cool:

[md 600 driver]

for engineers out there is this the same 47 that i have in my 600 steve

[turboshaft]

Steve,

If you - or any of our other Model 250-C47B/47M operators - have any concerns regarding the current engine investigation, as described in the Bell Service Letter posted below (Bell ASB 407-03-73), I would strongly encourage you to contact the customer support team here in Indy ([email protected] or phone: 317 230 2720).

Since the investigation is still on-going, it's not appropriate for me to provide further comment on the root cause (as much as I might want to), but I will say that the current focus of the investigation is on the -C47B/407 rather than the -C47M/MD600N, due to differences in the engine running speed.

There is a substantial effort being undertaken by the team here in Indy (in cooperation with Bell and the NTSB) to fully understand and address this issue, and further information will be released through the proper channels as soon as it is known.

Fly safe,
t/shaft

-----

Information Letter 407-03-73
December 14, 2003

TO: All Owners/Operators of Bell 407 series Helicopters
SUBJECT: Information on Model 407

There have been 2 incidents in the Texas gulf coast area involving the Model 407 since November of this year. The preliminary investigation suggests that they may be engine related. The investigation by the NTSB is on going at this time.

Both Bell and Rolls-Royce have formed a joint action team to ensure that the combined assets of both companies are focused on the most rapid resolution of the situation. The engine components have been returned to Rolls Royce under the authority of the NTSB investigation. Important information resulting from the investigation will be distributed rapidly to all the Model 407 operators and maintainers as it becomes available.

Currently there are over 560 Model 407 Rolls-Royce powered helicopters in over 80 different countries around the world. This fleet has accumulated over 1,400,000 flight hours since the introduction in 1996.

Bell Helicopter and Rolls-Royce are committed to the rapid resolution of these events and our desire to keep you well informed.

Any media inquiries regarding these incidents may be directed to Carl Harris in the Bell Helicopter Textron office (phone: 817-280-2783, email: [email protected] ).

Customer inquires may be directed to Jack Denham, Director Product Support (phone: 817 280-3344, email: [email protected] ).

In case of questions about the involvement of the engine:

Please direct any media inquiries regarding this incident to Maria Weber in the Corporate Communications office (phone: 317-230-6662, email: [email protected] ).

Please direct any customer inquiries regarding this incident to Gary Souza in the Model 250 support team (phone: 317-230-3987, email: [email protected] ).

[Notar fan]

600 Driver,
To the best of my knowledge, the actual engine is the same, the only difference is the software.

[zalt]

A very interesting item in the BHT IL is that there have been '2 incidents in the Texas gulf coast area involving the Model 407 since November of this year'.

There are no relavent entries in the NTSB accident database.

This either suggests these were truely more minor incidents (and not related to 'people dying in 407s' as speculated above) or as discussed in past posts, that the US system is supressing events that other countries would class as accidents.

It would be REALLY useful if anyone of those people close enough to have confirmed the PHI groundings / wheel changes could actually say what happen in these 2 incidents.

Meanwhile, a trivial point - how come the fleet hours have gone from passing 1 million in November to 1.4 million now?

EDIT: After looking through past threads, the ditching of N405PH just after take off from a rig nine miles south of Marsh Island (reported on 16 Nov) is probably one. The absence of this accident from the NTSB database is rather worrying.

[leading edge]

Zalt

N405PH was a ditching after take off.

It is not in the NTSB accident database because it was not classified as an "accident" but as an "incident".

No significant damage occurred to the aircraft as a result of the ditching and significant damage (in the opinion of the NTSB investigator assigned) is one of the criteria used to determine whether it is an accident or incident.

LE

[Gomer Pylot]

Accidents aren't listed in the NTSB database until a preliminary report is issued. Apparently the NTSB is still investigating the 407 accidents. There have been at least 2 fatal 407 accidents, neither of which is on the NTSB site, but which have been reported on the FAA preliminary accident site. The FAA reports accidents as they are reported to it, and the information is often sketchy, and sometimes incorrect. The NTSB only issues a report after a probable cause is determined, or when it's a major airline accident, it may release information while the investigation is still ongoing. It's not unusual for accidents not to be listed on the NTSB site for some weeks if a probable cause is not obvious. From the FAA descriptions, the causes of the 407 crashes probably weren't completely self-evident.

[belly tank]

Hi All,

I found this while doing a bit of surfing, sounds interesting!!

(quote)

"Although Bell won't unveil an all-new helicopter model, Redenbaugh says he will announce a plan for developing new and improved models at the Helicopter Association International Heli-Expo trade show Sunday.

He declined to discuss specifics, but sources within Bell say engineers are working on three projects that could lead to improved aircraft within a couple of years.


A tail-rotor shroud, known as a fenestron, is being designed and will be tested on a Bell 407, the company's bestselling helicopter. Used for years by other manufacturers, the shroud produces a quieter aircraft and reduces the risk of someone being maimed by the tail rotor"

[PANews]

A fenestron type tail rotor is not new to Bell, they dabbled about ten years ago with a 'ring tail' on the 400 [a pre-427 twin]. It was minimalist and probably did little more than mark and guard the outer tail rotor. They dropped it and the 400.

Bell did produce some pictures of a new project using a 'proper' fenestron at HAI - potentially a 206 replacement. It was described as a Gazelle lookalike and that was a fair description.

[407 Driver]

Bell's model 400......

http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/foto/bell_400.jpg

[Shawn Coyle]

As one of the few to have actually flown the Bell 400, I could never figure out why they didn't do anything with the ring-fin concept.
Seemed to have lots of benefits and few drawbacks.

[Gregg]

The new tail design is a prototype being developed on using a 407 body as an experimental look for the proposed new model line, MAPL. (Modular Affordable Product Line) This will be a new family of helicopters designed around a new rotor system, tail rotor, drive system, cabin, and engine. Proposed concept includes light single, light twin, and medium twin models, all based on same family of parts.
Bell will also be evaluating a new rotor system (possbily also using a 407 body) as part of the research for this new development program. This work is being conducted at Bell's XWORX R&D facility.

From HAI press release:
Bell’s Modular Affordable Product Line (MAPL) of helicopters is making significant progress as development continues on the technologically advanced products. Plan calls for aircraft to be designed, built and certified by the end of the decade.

Bell began development last year of the technology for MAPL, a family of light helicopters, including both single and twin-engine models. The MAPL family is being designed to provide break through productivity gains for Bell customers.

Bell market research on the MAPL concept has shown us that our customers’ price is the clear driver of customer satisfaction and that our initial targets of speed, payload, and noise are preferred. In response to our customers some of the design characteristics designed into the aircraft are:

20% productivity improvement via speed and useful load improvements
20% reduction in operating costs
10 dB noise reduction
99% dispatch reliability
In order to achieve the high reliability rating desired, Bell has embarked on technology maturation for the MAPL family. Key technologies being developed by Bell include the main rotor, drive train, autopilot, and noise control. In addition, suppliers are working on engine technologies and avionics to meet customer requirements

To provide customer desired comfort along with affordability, Bell designers have developed fuselage concepts providing more space for pilots and passengers. By developing a modular construction technique offering significant commonality across the product line, Bell’s investment and recurring costs are reduced thus providing a more affordable product for our customer

In keeping with Bell’s aim to provide current customers with product improvements, engineers are also working on a plan to insert MAPL technology into our existing product line. This will benefit the customer in two ways: first by improving the performance and cost of Bell’s legacy products and second by maturing key technologies in service before the MAPL aircraft enter service.

[John Eacott]

Bell have a picture and article here. (http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/en/companyInfo/pressReleases/pr_2004_HAI_02.cfm)

http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/en/comp_info/MAPL_351_profile.jpg

[clipboard]

After the numerous crashes involving Bell 407's, mainly due to the tail rotor hitting the boom or the boom breaking off, Bell introduced all sorts of quick fix solutions, and promised their 407 owners that they have come up with the solution, and that all is well.

Not so, Bell! A Bell 407, ZS-RLS, belonging to a Cape Town based helicopter operator, was involved in such an incident recently.

The pilot landed, ran down the engine for 2 minutes, then shut it down. After the engine was shut down, he heard a scraping noise, and an investigation to the tail after the blades had stopped, revealed that the tail rotor had hit the boom. Now where is the fix now dear Bell people?? Thank God it did'nt happen in flight, because then that helicopter and its occupants would have become another statistic.

This is the first time ever that Bell is now in a position to evaluate the situation, as everything on the helicopter is intact. During the 407 crashes, the helicopters were normally totally destyroyed, so Bell could not say what caused it. Here is the evidence. The "quick fix" that Bell promised, has failed, and all 407's should therefore regarded as suspect.

It is alledged that the South African Bell rep inspected the helicopter, and he could offer no solution, as the pedal stops were'nt open. A SACAA inspector had a subsequent discussion with the Bell rep, and wanted to know if Bell intended grounding the fleet, to which the Bell rep responded 'negative".

Now I would say that that is a very irresponsible approach, as for the first time now there is a 407 in one piece, on the ground for Bell to evaluate the problem, and Bell says "no thanks"

It is believed that all the 407 crashes was the result of the tail rotor hitting the boom, the boom then breaking off due to excessive vibration, and the helicopters being totally destroyed in the process.

I will not risk my life poling a 407, and all 407 operators should take note of this incident, and pressurize Bell into doing something about it.

[paco]

This is not to support Bell, or to say that they shouldn't fix things, but isn't it true that nobody has been killed yet through this? That's what I was told when I did my conversion. It appears to be quite good without a tail rotor, relatively speaking. It's a fine ship, and you could argue that the AStar should also be grounded after the recent series of control hardovers which definitely have killed people, and make me wary of flying it until they have sorted it properly (not to mention other slightly cheesy things).

You are assuming, of course, that all the mods were done correctly, or even done at all.

Let's not get too hysterical.

Phil

[francois marais]

I have read this posting with interest.

As far as I know, out of all the 407 accidents where the boom broke off, only on two occassions did the occupant(s) survive.

I saw the remains of a wrecked 407, and I can assure it was'nt a pleasant site. The tail rotor hit the boom in flight, whereafter the boom broke just aft of the horizontal stabilizer, and the vibration that followed, practically tore the boom off. The helicopter went inverted, and crashed in that position with no survivors.

Paco your instructor was pulling your leg when he told you that the 407 has'nt killed anybody, and his nose must have grown a kapola feet when he told you that the 407 flies very well without its tail. It does'nt! Trust me.

When the first 407 crashed, Bell issued some AD's, and crew jokingly called the earlier model 407 the 407AD, coz every week there was an AD to comply with. Bell spent hundreds, if not millions of man hours trying to find a solution to the problem. They issued all sorts of AD's. No abrupt pedal movements above a certain speed. They limited the VNE etc. Then told the 407 owners all is cool, nothing wrong with your heli. And now????
What are they going to say now? Had this incident occurred in flight, I'm sure the pilot and the occupents would not have lived to tell the tale, and other pilots would probably have just said "yeah, the guy was a freshman, and he did'nt know what he was doing. He probably did something he was'nt supposed to do".

It sucks!
407 pilots, beware.

[belly tank]

correct me if im wrong but wasnt the 407 developed from the OH 58 KIOWA WARRIOR? similar design...has the military had any problems with the tail rotor on the 58 warrior?

didnt the A STAR have initial problems with tail rotors hitting the boom and they extended the drive shaft?.....just a faint recolection of mine..anyone care to elaborate.

[Shawn Coyle]

As one of the people involved at Transport Canada when this happened, perhaps I can shed some light on this.
Unless there has been something else happen to the tail rotor since 'the fixes' were put in, there were only three incidents of tail rotor being chopped off. In all three cases, the pilot was able to land the helicopter, and the only fatalities were in the last one in South America, where the passengers exited the aircraft with the rotor still turning and were hit by the main rotor blades.
Perhaps there has been something else happen since then.
There was one other incident that was thought to be a possible tail rotor strike, in the Gulf of Mexico, but it was later determined that the pilot had had a fatal heart attack- the damage to the tail boom was not consistent with a tail rotor strike on the boom.
The fix was an 'active' tail rotor stop that came in when the airspeed went above 50 KIAS and retracted at about the same speed.
This latest incident sounds like something similar, and it's going to be interesting to see what happens.

As for similarities to the OH-58D - yes, it has the same tail rotor, but the OH-58D can't go anywhere near as fast as the 407, and that appeared to be part of the problem- hence the airspeed restrictions that were put in place until the fix was sorted out.
Hope this helps to clarify things.

[407 Driver]

Mr Selfish, the problems that Paco mentioned with the 350 in Canada are not the typical "Jack stall" that we have all heard about.
This seems to be a cold weather situation, where high time pilots have lost control of the aircraft.
Please don't "try harder" to attempt this yourself, as I doubt that you have the required low temperatures, and your family won't like the results !

I have several thousand hours of Squirrel time and have encountered "Jack Stall" or as EC describes it..."servo control transparency". Let me be the first to warn you, you need not "try" to enter this situation, it happens at the most inopportune moment and it hits hard. I was in a B model at 4000 lb AUW circling a fire at 4,000 with a gentle 15 degrees of bank and the controls simply froze.
Be very aware of this situation, and never allow yourself to enter a situation where a hard turn or climb is required for safety, as that's when it may happen. Remember, the only way to exit this "transparecy" is to reduce collective and bank angle.

-----------

Francois, I too am mis-informed over the number and seriousness of 407 Tailboom problems worldwide. AS with Paco, we probably only get Canada and USA info via the NTSB (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp#query_start) website and I was under the impression, that the majority of accidents were not fatal. In one of the Tailboom accidents, the aircraft was landed safely and the only fatalities were 2 passengers running away uphill ( Brazil?)
Do you have an accident website or database that you access (in SA?)

------------

Belly Tank, you must be almost as old as me, I too recall that situation when Astars first hit the skies in the late 70's. The flexible blade-spar allowed the T/R to contact the boom, and the fix was a longer shaft on the T/R gearbox output.

[Shawn Coyle]

Further to my last - normally reliable sources tell me that the most recent South African incident happened on shutdown in very strong winds. Completely different situation than the previous incidents/accidents.
If I hear more, I'll pass it on.

[DynamicRollOver]

Story is the 407 involved in this incident (ZS-RLS) was on the ground parked with the wind at between 20 to 25 knots at an angle of around 3 to 5 degrees on the right of the nose. The aircraft was shutting down and with the rotor speed at around 42 odd percent, there were half a dozen or so knocks which was the tail rotor hitting the tail. Initial suspicion was that the pilot had put peddles is to reduce the rotor speed but after questioning, it was discovered that the rudders were level.

Where could the problem lie?
What caused this?

No-one has any answers yet! Just a whole lot of shoulder shrugging and confused expressions.

[407 Driver]

Dynamic, you sound "close" to the scene, did the T/R deflection pinch that "tell-tale" 1/8th inch gap on the sides of the T/R Hub ?

[paco]

Randy Bechtel did my conversion, and he strikes me as a guy that knows what he's talking about, especially as he used to be Bell's Chief Instructor.

Mr Selfish - these hardovers are not transparency - they are a sudden uncommanded movement of the cyclic to one side, uncontrollable even by big beefy guys who regularly bench press 180 lbs. We had one on the ground where I was working last Summer (nothing to do with cold weather), there were several others reported and one not reported (shame on the very large company involved). It is entirely possible this condition was responsible for the deaths of one or two highly experienced pilots. I believe there have been 9 or so incidents, and the machine was not far off being grounded - in fact I believe Ontario MNR did just that.

There have been some thoughts that it could be water getting into the hydraulic fluid, and creating an ineffective mush, even though both fluids by themselves would do the job. However, that doesn't explain the hardover - the current opinion is that the accumulators aren't dumping at the same time, or rather one may be dumping and the others not. Who knows? I know that I don't plan to fly one until it's sorted, hence my contribution in the other thread about giving it all up for the risk (but never say never!!).

Then again, the jetbox used to be a killer, and now it's officially the safest single-engined aircraft, including fixed wing.

Phil

[DynamicRollOver]

407 Driver - Nope. The gaps have not moved or bent closed at all!!!

[407 Driver]

Hmmm, now that's interesting.....!

[Head Turner]

Agusta are planning on a fenestron design so perhaps there is a colaboration going on with Bell

[Robbo Jock]

"...and second by maturing key technologies in service ..."

Is that another way of saying that they'll be using their customers as Test Pilots ?

[clipboard]

There was a thread posted here on a Bell 407 based in Cape Town South Africa that was recently involved in an incident whereby the tail rotor contacted the tailboom during shutdown in gusty conditions.

The SACAA viewed this incident in a serious light, but Bell did'nt. As expected, they blamed the pilot and issued an Information Letter (IL 206L-04-75) dated April 05, 2004 whereby they stress the importance of adhering to the shutdown procedures in the 407 Manual.

What Bell is saying that the pilot did not have the collective in the full down position, neither did he have the pedals and the cyclic centered. Now this is utter bullsh1t! The pilot is a pro, and followed the shutdown procedure impeccably.

What Bell is neglecting to tell us, is that their 407 is riddled with problems, but its the usual old story, "one upmanship". Had the incident occurred in flight and the tail boom maybe seperated from the rest of the frame, the occupants would have been statistics, and the pilot would more than likely have been blamed, as usual.

Shame on you Bell!:mad:

[B Sousa]

With a little time in the 407 I always thought it was going to be a nice machine. The Motto I always carry is "Never fly an A model of anything" it most certainly applies to the 407.
I met one of the 407 drivers in SA who had one of the failures a year or so ago. He was not thrilled with it for sure. By the comments here it appears the T/R has the ability to touch the tailboom under certain conditions. To me thats a No No......pedal stops or not.

[407 Driver]

Clipboard stated (Re: 407 tailbooms) "the occupants would have been statistics" . I suggest that you read the whole thread, I recall that a reliable source posted that there have been NO fatalities related to the tailboom issues with 407's. You mention that this pilot in question is a true professional ( I believe you), so I'm sure that he would react with his experience and manage a tailboom loss ...as the other pilots encountering it have done.

Personally, my tail boom has not fallen off yet, (my mechs have found a crack once) and I like the aircraft, so rather than whining about it, perhaps you should buy a superior EC product...they NEVER have problems I've heard ?? or perhaps ask the ENG pilot in NYC last week for his opinion :D

[sprocket]

A slightly longer TRGB output shaft usually fixes the problem of contacting the tailboom. Isn't that how they cured the AS350 problem in the early days?
Might mean a complete re-design of the gearbox, aahhh, what the heck lets just try the cheaper band-aid fix instead!

Still some un-answered questions in this incident though, like how can the T/R contact the boom without closing the gaps (as DNR) has written?
Is there an assembly issue? ie was the spacer on the output shaft in its correct place?

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: clipboard

This is the first time ever that Bell is now in a position to evaluate the situation, as everything on the helicopter is intact. During the 407 crashes, the helicopters were normally totally destyroyed, so Bell could not say what caused it. Here is the evidence. The "quick fix" that Bell promised, has failed, and all 407's should therefore regarded as suspect.

In Iran we had a pilot that was demonstrating engine failure on an AB-205 and entry into autorotation and his student didn’t respond in a timely manner. As a result the rotor speed decayed and the pilot lowered his collective and entered into a mild dive. During this time he attempted to reengage the engine but the engine needle oversped the rotor needle. He attempted restart two more times with the same result.

He entered into a successful autorotation and made a run on landing on soft earth. While the rotor was running down he was filling out his paperwork when the rotor came off the mast and in the process it hit the pylon and as it spun around the stabilizer bar punched into the helicopter just behind the pilot. This was the first Bell helicopter to have experienced a mast separation and survived. It could serve as a prime subject into the mast separation phenomenon.

In the investigation it was determined that the free wheeling unit was severely damaged most likely due to compressor stall. The maintenance records did not show any indication of this helicopter experiencing a compressor stall. Bell said that the rotor hit the pylon because the pilot used aft cyclic during the landing. To do this the structure would have to yield to allow the transmission to lean back far enough to allow the rotor to hit the pylon. There was no deformation. Bell brought in a metallurgist who said that the fracture was due to instantaneous stress caused by the blade hitting the pylon. I tried to fight this conclusion but I was overruled. We sent the mast and the stub to Agusta for testing but never got a response.

About a week later the Bell rep came up to me and asked me if I knew that the free wheeling unit as well as the entire drive line had been subjected to not just one but three compressor stalls. He knew we were investigating the incident but he never came forward nor, did he initiate any structural and dynamic checks on the helicopter as required by the maintenance manual.

Another point I came across was that our AB-206s were maintained as commercial aircraft. When the time change items were to be replaced they were then maintained as OH-58s which had higher time limits on the parts.

I brought this along with many other problems to the attention of Bell but Bell never did anything about it.

So much for corporate ethics.

:E :E

[Head Turner]

Corporations are just the same as governments. They lie.

Where are the weapons of mass destruction - the reason for the Iraq war. Now there's a cover up going on in regard to the POWs.

Bell will mislead. But positively, they will sort the problem bit by bit and then claim that they have spent millions and have advanced technology for the benefit of their helicopter business.

I'm cynical because Corporation like Governments tell us any old thing if they believe we will be stupid enough to believe it.

[francois marais]

Hiya Lu, I enjoyed your story.

I know the said helicopter, the company, the pilots that work there, and the pilot involved in this particular incident. They're all good guys, very professional, and there is no way that the pilot involved here, will bullsh1t his way thru this one.

Bell are not being honest here. Simple! There is a major problem with their 407, and they don't wanna know. There is NO reason whatsoever, not in normal conditions or in gusty conditions, for the tail rotor to connect with the boom during flight or shut down. Irrespective of what Bell are saying, and/or what they are publishing in the manual.

When the first 407 incident occurred, Bell were quick to issue AD's and IL's and implimented a number of "limitations". Vne limitations, Vop limitations, pedal limitations..... et al. Some pilots, with thousands of hours of experience, came to the conclusion that the 407 was a stretched version of the Long Ranger, with 4 blades and a heap more power. No major design changes to the fuselage, and expressed no surprise when something went wrong the first time.

Bell is quick to blame the pilot, but I can assure you, you may think that we are all stupid Mr. Bell & Co, we are not. We view your helicopter with sceptism and wonder what fabrication you will come up, next time someone dies in a 407. Pilot error no doubt!:mad:

[spinningwings]

Jeeez Guys! ....take it easy ...any reading would think there might be a PRODUCT LIABILITY PROBLEM here!!!!!!!!

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[407 Driver]

Question...How many 407's operate in South Africa?

(Canada has 26, the USA has 329)

[bladestrap]

Product liability???? Maybe!

Rumour has it that Bell is now gonna give the owner a brand new beefed up tail boom. Are they doin this as a favor to keep the owner happy, or are they doin it becoz they know that would be the right thing to do?

[Helipolarbear]

Will it take another incident, possibly with someone famous on board who becomes a fatality. Followed by a massive litigation suit......and then Bell will decide to cut their losses....litrally..and pay and fix!!!
If you are a 407 Helipilot, and you think everything is kosher, go ahead and keep pullin pitch.......it's your own risk!
The SA incident sounds serious enough that if Bell were serious about their product they would at least do a detailed inspection and follow up....if only to save their own bacon!;)

As ever Lu, enjoyed your Persian Tale!!!!:p :}

God Bless Sikorsky and every other manufacturer that listens to it's pilots and takes action!!!!!:ok:

[407 Driver]

If you are a 407 Helipilot, and you think everything is kosher, go ahead and keep pullin pitch.......it's your own risk!

I think that goes for every type, not just 407's. Are the 10 crew/pass on the ERA 76 last month "less-dead" than if they were on a faulty 407? Or how about the crew/passengers on that Bristow 76 that threw a blade in the North sea 2 years ago?

You offer Good advice, but I'd caution everyone to be ultra careful, question everything, accept no faults, maintain limits, give yourself the "out".

I don't fly a 407 knowing everthing is Kosher( whatever that is?, I've only seen that word on Pickle Jars? Must mean "filled with Garlic?) nor do I fly an L3 or a 212 or ? knowing that everything is always OK.

[spinningwings]

By way of asking questions about the 407 ....has there yet been any indication of what caused the Queensland ( the CHC rescue machine) 407 to fall out of the sky ....will that prove to be another "pilot error"???


:confused: :confused:

[407 Driver]

Do you mean this one...night VFR offshore? http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=547

[Dynamic Component]

spinningwings,

did you expect to see anything BUT pilot error on the Qld 407:confused:

You should know by now that if the problem can't be found it becomes the pilots fault:mad: :mad:

Don't get me wrong-I do think the 407 is a good aircraft(altough I've lost a friend in one:( ), it's just a pitty about the TR problems.

:} :}

[misunderstood]

I thought it was pretty clear that the Queensland night accident was a classic case of spatial disorientation .... ?

[407 Driver]

Given the multiple and rapid changes in heading and altitude prior to loss of radar coverage, one may suspect that.
The Official word is....the investigation is still "Active"

[Shawn Coyle]

Given the high visibility of the 407 tail rotor problems, you can rest assured that Transport Canada, who is the certifying authority, is watching things pretty closely, even if you are of the opinion that Bell Helicopter isn't also pretty damned concerned if they see a problem.

Most of us have been around enough to realize there isn't a perfect:
a) design
b) manufacturer (engine, airframe, component)
c) operator
d) maintenance facility
e) airworthiness certification authority
f) pilot
g) operational authority
h) training school

If there were a perfect one of any of the above, don't you think it would corner the market in that category?

The question is
What do we do until the perfect thing comes along?

[belly tank]

I may as well post this whilst i was browsing at the Bell site, for you 407 fans!!

http://www.bellhelicopter.com/en/comp_info/a407_in_Nepal.jpg

Adding to its already impressive list of accomplishments on July 1 2004, Bell 407 flown by Bell Senior Experimental Test Pilot, Eric Emblin, and Flight Test Engineer, Ed Lambert, the aircraft landed on Tillcho Peak in the Mustang area of northern Nepal Himalayan mountain range at an altitude of 22,180 feet Hp (24,971 feet Hd). This remarkable flight completed a weeks worth of demonstrations and testing, which included low speed controllability flights, IGE/OGE hover checks, and general performance evaluations at altitudes in excess of 18,500 feet.

The Bell trial team based its operation out of the Jomsom airport (elevation 8,800 feet) and performed most of their test sorties in and around Mustang District area. This testing was conducted to verify performance capability outside the current published 407 flight envelope and was necessary to pursue key international military programs.

With over 600 Bell 407’s operating in more than 50 countries, these trials represented the first appearance of the 407 in Nepal. While the 407 has already developed a solid reputation as an excellent high altitude performer, flying in the Himalayas offered an opportunity to take the 407 to an unparalleled level.

Bell’s six-member flight test team was lead by Steven Woolston, Director of Asia Pacific Programs, and Dale Cato, Program Manager for Light Helicopters. Mr. Emblin, who conducted all of the high altitude flights, stated “We pushed the helicopter to the edge of its operational capabilities and it delivered as predicted. The 407 demonstrated plenty of margin everywhere.” Additional team members included Steve Bornais, Experimental Flight Mechanic and Chris Ankrom, Rolls Royce Director of Technical Support. As a further endorsement to the 407’s durability, the only maintenance performed during the test program was daily preflight inspections and topping off fuel based on mission requirements.

Ok back to work now!!

cheers BT

[NickLappos]

A most impressive achievement! Congratulations to the crew!

Anyone know the highest helicopter landing yet recorded?

[SASless]

Nick dear boy....landings are a given....it is takeoffs we wish to hear about....the Bell Press Release seems a bit vague on that.

I copied the pertinent bit from the PR ....

".....the aircraft landed on Tillcho Peak in the Mustang area of northern Nepal Himalayan mountain range at an altitude of 22,180 feet Hp (24,971 feet Hd). "

The question does arise....did the aircraft?

More importantly...being here at the base of some fairly high peaks and some other small lumps in the earth's crust....what kind of payload, etc....did they tote around with them. I want something to work around 15,000 feet and do so with some generous OGE capability. Bell has never been able to produce anything that did that very well and have a tail rotor that could do more than make a lot of noise.

Being a bit cynical here....but I can be convinced if Bell can show me the numbers.:E

[The Sultan]

It is not still there.

The Sultan

[helmet fire]

Now there is a market opening up: take a tourist 407 and land on Everest...they will be queued up for miles - passengers reuired to travel one at a time!:ok:

[belly tank]

Bell’s MAPL Tail Fan Demonstrator Completes High Altitude Testing

http://www.bellhelicopter.com/en/comp_info/Tailfan2.jpg

NBAA, Las Vegas, NV Oct 12, 2004

Bell’s new tail fan demonstrator helicopter is back at the company’s XworX facility in Arlington, Texas, following a successful round of high altitude flight-testing in Leadville, Colorado. While in Colorado the aircraft demonstrated OGE (out of ground effect) hover at over 11,700 feet, and flight at an altitude greater than 13,000 feet. It also demonstrated left and right sideward flight up to 45 knots. On the return trip to Texas following testing, the aircraft visited Air Methods at Denver’s Centennial Airport and demonstrated its very low noise signature.

The tail fan demonstrator aircraft completed its first flight on July 15, 2004. The demonstrator is being used to explore the flight characteristics of this protected, low-noise anti-torque device intended for use on Bell’s new MAPL line of light helicopters (the Modular Affordable Product Line.)

The tail fan demonstrator is an experimental Bell 407 with a forty-inch diameter fan and duct, which replace the sixty-five inch diameter tail rotor. The tail fan incorporates technology developed during bench testing completed earlier this year, many features of which are covered by new patent disclosures. It has been designed to allow testing in multiple different duct configurations, to provide information on their performance and acoustics in hover and forward flight.

The tail fan is only one of many new technologies being developed specifically for the MAPL family, including an advanced rotor demonstrator planned to fly later this year. The first aircraft in the MAPL family is expected to be available in 2008, although some of these new technologies are mature and could be incorporated in existing Bell aircraft now in production.

[[email protected]]

So they have stuck a fenestron on a jet ranger then - hardly cutting edge is it?

[Hilico]

Crab

1. I'd rather someone else flew 'cutting edge', just in case there's a few teething problems.

2. The first I usually hear of an approaching JR is the penetrating buzz from the TR - take that away and it really would be significantly quieter. In that respect, Bell have simply listened to what Eurocopter have been doing, and set about catching up - which I'm sure even their most ardent supporter would agree they could do with.

[407 Driver]

..on a JetRanger ...???

Tell me Crab, how much 407 time do you have? My 407 doesn't handle or perform like a 206 at all ? :*

[goaround7]

If it goes on future 407s - is that in the pipeline ? - it could go a long way towards dispelling any remaining discomfort about tail chopping on an otherwise fantastic helicopter. Let's just hope it doesn't substitute tail rotor authority problems instead...

[Helipilot-CA]

I'm just sorry they did it so ugly...407 is a so beautiful beast !!
And look how lucky am I : as a low time pilot with 350 h total time, I've 100 h PIC on this wonderful helicopter ! I don't know what will be my next job but I guess I will have to change some habbits...


407 driver, I hope you know your luck !

[Leftpedal]

goaround7 you took the words out of my mouth! (See "EC120 rolls in Durban" on the African Aviation website).
Have Bell solved the problem that appears to affect the EC120?

[Gregg]

The tail fan demonstrator is not being developed for use on the 407.

It is one of several technologies (including a new rotor and possibly a new engine) being evaluated for Bell's future family of helicopters, MAPL.

The base 407 helicopter is being used as test bed for these technologies, as it gives a good known point for comparison.

As with all of these technologies, if it is successful enough and there is customer demand for it, there is a possibility that they may be retrofitted to existing aircraft or new model upgrades in the pipeline, such as the 427i.

[maxvne]

Can anyone tell me where I can get a B407 conversion done either in UK or Ireland and roughly how much it will cost if I supply the aircraft if possible.

Max

[Hedski]

Max,
check PM's!:}

[maxvne]

Hi Hedski
could you re-send the info I did not get is as I have new e-mail which I sent to you
Sorry and thanks

Max

[407 Driver]

HAI Day One: Bell, Honeywell In Power Play

Anaheim, Feb 5, 2005. Bell and Honeywell took the pre-show stage here today, an event which was in effect a celebration of a return to linkage between the two. The latter was selected by Bell to put a new engine – a 900 shaft horsepower class derivative of the LTS-101 – on to the hot selling –407 after a rigorous competition which eliminated Rolls, P&WC and Turbomeca. The new engine – initially set at 925 shp features new components and some other modifications to yield a 40 percent performance increase and a pretty good specific fuel consumption for this engine class. Bell’s CEO Mike Redenbaugh – who oversaw development of Honeywell light helo engines in a former life – said he knew, better than most, the potential of the design. Things are looking so bright the new motor will be offered to the Army for the three hundred something ARH project – proposals for which will go in from Bell next week. To questions about new development risk in a programme that is supposed to be fast-track and ‘commercial off the shelf’ – Redenbaugh says the answer is in giving the Army better hot and high performance as well as something they can phase in later as growth dictates. Honeywell, taking stage immediately after an extremely up-beat review of Bell’s prospects by their ebullient boss, said the engine is performing well in tests and that a ‘ground run’ version will be offered to the –407 office at Bell soon.



In other remarks made by Redenbaugh:



. Bell is offering all-new versions of the AH-1Y and Z model gunship to the Navy to cover a capability gap the US Marine Corps will have when olderH-1s come in for the re-man programme;



, Recent problems with the V-22 have been fixed (or will be shortly) allowing the USMC to get on with their delayed opeval programme probably in March. The tests will run for four months.



. Bell backlog for 2005 is a whopping 93 percent up over this time last year;



. Industry has an ‘industry-wide’ problem on ‘drift control of bearings production,’ of the kind that surfaced with the recent enforced inspection of V-22 input quills. Bell is contributing data and knowledge on an industry-wide basis to fixing the problem;



. There is still not much movement on helicopters for the US Homeland Security effort. (Redenbaugh finds it tough to be downbeat on an issue, but even he was forced into negative body language on a long-running situation that hasn’t resolved itself since urgings after 9/11 and doesn’t look like it will;



. Honeywell is staying well back from any further controversy on the US Coast Guard re-engining issue, a senior Washington lobbyist there cautioning the company had decided it was better to take the ‘high ground,’ in the high-profile affair. Privately, executives claim so-called engine gripes recorded at the height of the campaign to unseat the LTS-101 engine from the HH-65 Dolphin have mysteriously ‘fallen off to near zero,’ now the battle has been lost.. Their new engine – called the HTS900 – handily won Bell’s –407 place, up against the same Turbomeca Arriel 2 engine the USCG picked. ‘We told the USCG about the issue,’ a diplomatic Bob Miller of Honeywell said. ‘But to be fair there were schedule questions in there which would have been an issue.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Shawn Coyle]

Interesting indeed.
For years Alliison / Rolls have had the Bell light single market to themselves because of the lack of tail rotor drive from the transmission. Someone is stepping up to the plate with an engine that incorporates the same drive system as the 250 series uses.
I wonder how long it will be before there is a retrofit for the older engines - breathing new life into the 206 line....

[JerryG]

Currently giving serious thought to replacing a tired 206 with a shiny new 407. Anybody got any experienced thoughts on that?

[407 Driver]

BIG difference in cost and performance, what types of Operations do you do with the 206 now?

[Hippolite]

Get an EC130 instead. Better engine, better drivetrain, quieter, smoother and better cockpit dispays.

[JerryG]

The 206B3 is used in only two roles. It makes an adequate personal transport for a PPL holder, but as the distance is often around 250nms it's obviously pretty slow.

In the other half of it's life I use it professionally for any film work that doesn't specifically require a twin. In this role it's obviously pretty underpowered but I don't want to go to a French right-footer (too old to invert the brain during gentle heading alterations using power instead of feet). Also, since all of my work is VFR I like the amount of visibility you get from the thinner Bell pedestal instrument panel.

For a smoother airframe I love using the 206L with the nodal beam for nose mount work, but the triple vertical fin means it doesn't like going sideways. With gimbal mounts these days (see the thread "BBC guide for filming pilots") this has become a much less important issue.

[407 Driver]

...as much as I dislike Astars (EC)..... I have found that you don't think about flying an aircraft that "spins the wrong way", you just "do it", no sweat.
I'm probably too old and absent minded to think of left foot-- right foot, but if you look out the window, the hands and feet seem to automatically react in the proper manner. Even going from Astar to Bell to Astar on any given day, your finely tuned pilot reflexes should automatically compensate.

The 407 will give you a good cruise speed, probably near 130 Kts with out any accessories hanging off the sides. (we run a huge ski basket all year long) Baggage space is limited, just the same volume as your 206 ! The range is short, only 2.0 with regular tanks. With the extra fuel in the baggage mounted aux tank, range may increase by an extra .6 to .8 , but baggage volume further decreases.

The 407 is a great film ship. I've flown a few jobs, and the crews have just loved it. It's Smooth, Agile, and fast. The tail rotor on the 407 is strong, excellent control up wind, downwind, side wind, any wind....so sideward flight is possible at a very good speed...The climb rate is out of this world !

We filmed a documentary (Great Canadian Rivers - Athabasca R )on the huge Columbia Icefields (8,000 to 11,500) a few years back, with a full tank of fuel, about 5 guys and gear, we were able to climb up the glaciers-sideways- fast enought to thrill the cameraman...that crew was hooked on the aircraft.

[belly tank]

I Must agree with 407 DRIVER,

we aslo run a 206 for general charter which serves its purpose well and i have just come out of an endorsement on the 407 with only about 6 hrs so far on it but its an incredible performer, the one we have in our hangar is owned privately as well, but its a clean skin acft with no S&*t hanging off it and at sea level we cruise around 125-130 at 76-78% tQ.

Fuel Load with the Aux tank is 559lt or about 900lbs and burns around 300lb an hour.

you cannot replace your 206 for ease of maintenace and reliability but its horses for courses, the 206 serves its market well, upgrade to the 407,130 or 350B3 and be prepared to part with alot of the folding stuff to cover cost, especially if a LCD guage dies!!!

Having said that....the 407 is a real performer you wont be dissapointed, only quarm i have is the cabin layout, not much different from the L4 i prefer the open cabin in the 350's but hey beggers cant be choosers!!

[B Sousa]

From my limited experince in the 407 and some thousands in B206Ls and a few hundred in A-Stars............the 407 is Sweeeet.

[407 Driver]

Yes, it is definitely a pilots aircraft.

There's nothing sweeter than a 407, a tanker full of Jet A, a 150' line, an 800 L bucket and a raging forest fire ...Oh, the crew of BCFS firefighting Gals weren't to bad either :ok:

[SASless]

407...we must introduce you to real helicopters....things you climb up into and walk around in....the kind you can get lost in on the way to the cockpit....real helicopters. Or in lieu of real Wokka's....at least a 212...what the zero series always wanted to be when they grew up!

[407 Driver]

SASless, I only fly 212 in the winter, about 15 winters worth of skiing, etc. The strange truth is... that I've never actually flown the old gal in summer ...ever ? :p

[Warren Buffett]

407 - IMHO, the best non military single engine ship around as far as power, speed and smoothness. However there are less than 10 copies in Aus, I am told, so support may be a problem? Also glass cockpit won't like your 40+ summer days Down Under. 2 back facing seats and 2 cabin compartments is a disadvantage for sightseeing. Be prepared to send your 407 to the mechanics regularly.

B2/B3 - Great power, close to but not as powerful as 407. Hydraulics are a concern though. Better passenger layout than 407. Also you'd have to deal with the French - although they are getting better and timelier with spares. Far more copies of B2 and B3's around than 407 so the backup expertise is very good.

EC-130 - Very beautiful lines, very modern and very expensive to run. Terrible range but you can put in an aux tank. Up to 8 POB all facing forwards. Only a handful in your part of the world so servicing/spares/expertise will be an issue. Flies almost as beautifully as the 407 in terms of speed, grunt and smoothness.

206L-IV - Old, venerable, very reliable, cheap but a very good ship. They're everywhere so there are almost no bugs in them, spares are cheap and you can buy them at any Walmart (almost). This is a Holden (in Australian parlance) instead of a prestige model like a Cadillac.

Don't worry about left and right foot pedal use - like driving a LH drive car in the US or a RH drive car in the UK, you'd get used to it.

[SASless]

For the money...would not an L4 be a good compromise all the way around....good value for money...lots of spares...they go 100 hour to 100 hour...plenty of power in most applications...and nowhere the numbers of AD's SB's etc. Also ....no FADEC to worry about. Not as fast as the competition but the customer service issue is not a problem...your engineers already know the basic machine. Lots of the same spares....etc.

[B Sousa]

Sasless, your growing old. Sure a new L4 is nice, but it aint no 407........
Im telling you once you fly one, you wont want to get back in an L........
Not saying Im a total 407 fan as in the begining, as most aircraft, it had big bugs. But , as most aircraft, the first dummies to buy them have no paid for those.................Its Sweeeet.

[407 Driver]

I agree with the last two posts. (Warren and Sasless)

The L4 is great value for your dollar.

Good power, especially in hot and high conditions.

Good speed, our L3's on low gear scoot along quite well..when light, much better than a 206, not quite as good as the 407.

Good range, better than a 407, not quite as good as an Astar.

Very safe and economical ....and

Will probably fit into your existing hangar. 3 and 4 blade aircraft (without a blade folding kit ) are hangar hogs.

If I had the money, I'd be buying an L4 for my personal use. The chances of that happening are slim to none though :O

[JerryG]

Thanks guys, really appreciate the input, v helpful.

I'm actually thinking about it for my partner in the UK (so's I can drive it during the Brit summer :D ) , rather than here in Oz - so maybe the support side is less of an issue.

Tend to agree with SASless that what I'd really like is a Huey; feels like the old Wessex and with nearly the same fun of actually mounting the door of your trusty steed. The 212 was just as much fun - took one vertically out of the Hague city centre a couple of years back with a nearly full load of actors on board and plenty of go-juice. Somebody described it as a "yes" machine, as in "can you take......." "Yes, no problem".

.......but then you have to find work for these big thirsty beasties and that ain't so much fun.
Cheers
JerryG

[SASless]

Bert me old son,

I hate to tell you but we have grown old...we have beat the odds so far! So far my beard is gray...not white. I am getting better at not scaring myself.

Now if the man wants a Huey....have I got a deal for him....complete with de-mil'd guns....that we can handle for him. I even know where he can test drive one.

:ok:

[skidbita]

The CQ 407 investigation final report is here: http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/pdf/200304282.pdf

[belly tank]

Just reading in the latest Vertical Mag that Bell have decided to "shelve" the fan in fin testing. they were quoted as saying they were looking at other advanced technologies....

[Ian Corrigible]

There was an article in Flight a couple of weeks back suggesting that Bell is still conducting an ‘internal competition’ between the fenestron (sorry, tail fan :E) and PATS for MAPL. I'm yet to be convinced that Bell would choose PATS for a civil product, but we’ll see.

I/C

[havoc]

Maintenance and Garmin are at a loss for a problem with our 430.

If the rotors are turning the Garmin takes 5 mins to find itself and occassionaly it will fail in flight (5 minutes). Replaced the control head 3x, switched connectors, antenna, cables.

Pilots are sure the antenna location may be the problem but Maintenance and Garmin say no.

Another 407 and a 412 have the same problems. We even checked what avionics tech installed the equipment.

Any ideas?

[trackdirect]

I have the same problem with a BK117, The antenna is mounted on the Hyd Cowling and the GPS comes up with "GPS needs service" With some investigatton we found that another operator had the same problem with their BK wit the antenna mounted in the same spot. They repositioned the antenna on the cowling between the exhaust diffusers pretty close down to the tail boom and this seemed to cure the problem.
I believe the garmin units can get confused with some multi blade helicopters interfering with the recieved signal from satelites, with the antenna so close to the head and blades this causes a pulsing distortion of the recieved GPS signal that causes the service fault to come up. It seems that getting as much vertical space between the antenna and blades is the go and also as far away from the hub as possible.
We have a 400 fitted to an AS365 and the antenna is mounted on the top of the fin with no problems in that install.

PM me and I will see if I can find some photos of the BK antenna mount

[b.borg]

Might this CAA Paper (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAPAP2003_07.PDF) give some hints as to the problem ?

[John Eacott]

FWIW,

Our BK117 has a 430 with the antenna on the hyd cowling, and the setup works a treat. Never a problem in 2-3 years. Go figure? :confused: :ok:

Our JetRangers have Garmins, with the antennae on the battery lid, on the nose. They haven't given any reception problems in about 10 years :D

[havoc]

Spoke to the mechanic and he has gotten approval to move the antenna to the nose. FYI he had to do ground tests yeterday with moving the antenna to several locations on the aircraft.

Thanks for the input

[Daiseycutter]

Is it only the South African 407's that are having HMU problems (large number of the SA fleet grounded due to HMU faults and awaiting parts, support, etc) or is this a world wide problem. Seems our problems only started after the upgrade was installed. Where is Bell when you need them. Better yet, where's a good Squirrel when you need one?

[trackdirect]

What problems are you having??
Our 407 recently came up with a "Restart Fault" on test it showed up as an igniter relay fault but there were no problems starting the machine, every shutdown the fault came back, this was just after HMU change but I don't think it would be due to the HMU, Who knows!!!

[407 Driver]

We're having some start Relay problems on our ship. It's definitely to do with the Relay, vs the HMU though. The start light does not illuminate during the initial start sequence, but the aircraft starts fine.

No issues with HMU's in the entire fleet (7 aircraft )

[407 too]

we had the same "start" light not illuminating, replaced the little 1/2" x 1/2" relay on the floor of the instrument panel, no problems now

[407 Driver]

You fly S/N 53032 I presume ? :ok: :D

[407 too]

407 driver, is that good ???

give the man the sherlock holmes hat, glasses with the eyebrows and nose, along with the bent pipe :cool:

[B Sousa]

Daisycutter, Sounds like your in SOOOnami country. Rumor control is Squirells are on the way. Bells go back in the box........

[Ian Corrigible]

407ARH selected as the Kiowa Warrior replacement. 368 a/c, for FUE Q4 FY-08.

..........

Bell Helicopter Textron, Inc., of Fort Worth, Texas, was awarded July 29, 2005, a $210,746,761 cost-plus-incentive-fee contract for the system development and demonstration of the Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter, including sub-system integration and testing as well as training-device development. The ARH will replace the OH-58D Kiowa Warrior Helicopter (first fielded in 1985) and will be a dual crew station, single-pilot-operable aircraft capable of operating worldwide. Work will be performed at Fort Worth, Texas, and is estimated to be completed on Sept. 30, 2008. There were 11 bids solicited on Dec. 8, 2004, and two bids were received. The U.S. Army Aviation and Missile Command at Redstone Arsenal, Ala., is the contracting activity. Their public affairs office can be reached at (256) 955-9174. (W58RGZ-05-C-0234)

DoD 7/29/05

[Encyclo]

Fly Smart. Fly Bell. :ok:

[George Semel]

You didn't think the Army was going to buy A-stars now did you?

[mfriskel]

The news said that 11 companies were solicited and two submitted proposals. Bell and Boeing were the only two who sumitted.

[Galapagos]

Boeing must be pissed! They spent a lot of money to get the rights for the Little Bird...

:{

[diethelm]

The LUH contract is next.

Who wins, Bell, Lockeed/MD, Eurocopter? It will be interesting.

[Bell427]

Bell 210 :) LOL

[212man]

Now that's progress!:\

[Lama Bear]

It's a sad day when the Army has to take a Super Jet Ranger off the shelf than a newly designed helicopter to do exactly what they need to do. And a zero time 210 is really a step back.

[SASless]

212man....seen the numbers on the 210?

Read the list of improvements over the 205A-1?

Remember the commonality of parts...212 bits that will be used?

The 210 will be a very hot ticket for utility helicopter operators....and 212's will go away (in the US anyway).


There will always be "Killer Eggs"....407's will not fit into the places the SpecOps guys need to go.

[Lama Bear]

SaSless

Tell me how a clapped out, multi 1,000s of hours UH-1H airframe is magically turned into a zero time brand new 210. Then they take a 703 and with nothing more than a records check turn it into a -17.

Does this mean what the Restricted perators have maintained all along, the Huey and the 205 are the same aircraft?

Check the useful load of a UH-1H 703 and the 210. In the charts we look at the UH-1H still out lifts the 210 for a few million dollars less. Especially if you throw the composit blades on.

Will Bell EVER build another totally new helicopter??

[SASless]

Sikorsky, MBB, and Boeing-Vertol fan here. Bell's are fun to fly in vibrant way....and yes...Bell might one day build a new aircraft....but it certainly will not be for the US Army.

I have always found it interesting to find that Bell can take the same Restricted Catagory Huey airframe and turn it into a 210 but the rest of us cannot take the same airframe and turn it into a Standard Catagory aircraft. Go Figger?

[havoc]

Long story for maybe a short question:

(Bell 407)

During preflight I found the upper deck was covered in fluid and the transmission fluid level in the sight gage was maxed. The aircraft had just returned from a one hour flight, the off going pilot said he had not noticed anything unusal.

I called the on call mechanic and he said he serviced the transmission fluid with what he indicated (said, failed to write it up) with one pint of fluid. It was nothing major and would vent out to the level the transmission needed.

Cleaned up the mess and did a ten minute runup to ease my mind, and nothing seemed to be leaking.

Next flight same thing, messed up deck and maxed out fluid level.
Transmission pressure fluxuates at the low end of the green arc (2 light bars, chickets) but in the green.

Engine oil pressue at the top of the green arc. Fluid level lower then on preflight but only slightly.

This am the mechanic sivened of some fluid to get the transmission sight gage level mid range.

So the question came up in discussion:

If the oiler cooler had an internal leak allowing the engine oil to seep into the transmission, would you see and indication on the pressure instruments?

The mechanic assures me in this case he overfilled the transmission but said the second option could be a bad seal.

[Recuperator]

We had the same problem with our Bell 407's.

Overfilling the main txmn will lead to oil being vented out the pressure release valve on the txmn housing.

We leave our levels just below the yellow line (normal min mark) and above the bottom screws. This level seems to prevent the venting of txmn oil. If overfilled, it will vent till it finds its own "comfortable" level, it’s just messy! High or low skids don’t make a difference in the txmn levels. Then very important to check for correct levels 20 minutes after shut down when the oil is still warm.

BUT NOTE: The transfer we experienced was from the main txmn to the engine. I am not sure if it will transfer from the engine to the main txmn. Apparently it won’t happen, but I stand corrected.

If you have a transfer problem where the oil transfers past the damaged/old labyrinth seals on the drive shaft at the free wheel unit, there is no indication in the cockpit on the engine or txmn temperature gauges when transfer occurs from the txmn to the engine during a normal flight, if it hasn't been an extended flight, in my experience. That is as I said transfer from the txmn to the engine.

The only indications will be on the after flight. There will be excessive oil in the oil tank, visually visible through the engine oil level sight glass. If you open the engine oil cap, oil will come bubbling out the now very full oil tank, causing another fine mess. You will also notice a drop or slight drop in the main txmn oil level sight glass, depending on flight duration and severity of the leak rate.

Apparently there is no limit to the rate of transfer according to our engineers, as long as the txmn levels stay in limits. The seal must however be changed as soon as possible as 555 in the engine oil system is not ideal, as it hasn't got the same properties for cooling and lubrication as with 560. It also has to do with the fact that 555 don’t have the same high temperature performance as the 560, even though they are both synthetic oils.

You are worried about an internal leak. The chance of an internal leak is very remote, if not impossible.

Hope it helped. Overfill seems more likely to be your problem. Good luck.:ok:

[Spunk]

Ladies and Gents,

I just did a major revision on our 407 handbooks and had to find out that the former holder of the aircraft didn't care too much about conducting revision service on them. Most of the missing items I was able to find on Bell's webside but a few items are still missing. Can anybody please help me out with...

==> actual 407 OSN Index (ours is dated March 04)
==> II - 9 (reissue 09-06-01)
==> II - 32
==> MMS - Revision 1
==> CR & O TR-407-1 Rev. 2 (03/09/04)
==> MM-05 (missing, I guess he misread the cancellation of the supplement and deleted the entire chapter):ugh:
==> MM-13 title REV 15
==> MM chapter 98 page 3/4 Rev 4
==> MM Rev. 16

and maybe the very first GEN OSNs # 1 -31

Thanks a lot,

Spunk

[havoc]

Our mech replaced a Garlock seal on the starter generator. This required a run up for leak check and then a 10 min flight.

I understand the leak check but the mech could not explain why the 10 min flight. All he said was a there is a load difference.

Anyone with any insight?

[BlenderPilot]

My very personal insight, I never argue or ask why when a mechanic tells me we have to fly, reason is simple, I LOVE TO FLY, especially in a 407 and with nothing in particular to do!

PS: I don't ever recall having to go fly after they replaced anything related to the generator in a 407, but I have started to like your mechanic.

[havoc]

Don't get me wrong, I am only trying to further understand the systems by asking why we needed the flight.

The mech is good about explaining what he has done on the aircraft. He has always had the manual out while doing a procedure, shows us what tools he used and that they are back in the tool box.

And he always goes on the ops flight check without being asked.

[Recuperator]

Any mech that goes along on a test or function flight, even uninvited is welcome in my book to do so.

Proves his work has been done thoroughly checked and cross checked and should things then go wrong, he's in for the ride...

Either way you win! The guys that will voluntarily go are few and far between!! Don't seem to like to risk their own necks after their "workmanship"...:p

[Rigidhead]

Recuperator,

I am curious as to the type of operation you work for.
During my entire career so far, I have yet to work with
a mechanic/technician /engineer who would not be willing
to fly in a machine he or she had worked on. With very few
exceptions, they have all taken great pride in their abilities
and "workmanship" which was evident by the shape the
aircraft were kept in.



Rigidhead

[sprocket]

It is a two way street. The better the pilot, the more willing is the engineer to go flying. ;)

I cant think of any operational reason for flying after a seal change, but if you have the time, why not? After all why waste a cycle just to do a ground run.

[rotormatic]

Maybe your mechanic has replaced the seal before, and it looked good with a ground run, but after the next flight, it leaked again…

The gearbox pressures in the Rolls Royce engine are greater during flight that on the ground. The air/oil separator gear is N1 driven, and the gearbox pressures are higher at flight N1 speeds.

Or, like the others have said, the mechanic may like to fly.

What’s wrong with that?

Happy Christmas. May all your mechanic’s have this work ethic.

[Ian Corrigible]

[Spotter mode]At last week's Quad-A/AUSA conference, the RAH-70 designation was confirmed for the 407ARH. No word yet on a name. 'Slapaho' has been doing the rounds amongst the KW crews, but I'm not entirely convinced that this'll gain the approval of the Army's PR team... :E [/Spotter mode]

I/C

[Kleenex]

I also read an article that said the MD500 was in the running for this role?

[Ian Corrigible]

36 hours ?!! No wonder so many companies are outsourcing to India. :ooh:

(I smell a marketing pitch. D'you think this 'assembly' process involved much more than installing the pine-scented air freshener in the cabin...? :E )

From Newkerala.com (http://www.newkerala.com/news2.php?action=fullnews&id=51066)
HAL creates history by assembling American Bell 407 chopper

New Delhi: Having built "French" under technology transfer and the indegenious Advance Light helicopter "Dhruv", state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has for the first time successfully assembled an American Bell 407 helicopter.

"The HAL assembled helicopter has been delivered to Karnatka's VSL mining company and the task was completed within a span of a day and half", according to Max Wiley, Bell's Executive Director for Asia.

The assembling of the helicopter assumes significance as Textron company Bell 407 helicopter is bidding for the Indian Army's contract for 197 helicopters to expand its aviation wing.

Bell, along with Eurocopter, has been shortlisted for the contract and the American company's 407 helicopter has successfully completed technical evaluation including winter trials in high altitude areas of Ladakh and summer tests in the Pokhran range in the Thar desert.

Army Aviation, which at present equipped with the ageing French Aleutte I and Aleutte II helicopters is proposing to Purchase 60 helicopters outright and assemble the rest 137 in the country at HAL.

"Both Bell and HAL were equally excited that this assembly could be done at HAL since it exposed the company to the complete process of assembly and delivery of the Bell 407 helicopters" Wixley said.

I/C

[widgeon]

I would think in this case "assembly" involved taking the helicopter of the shipping skid , assembling landing gear , perhaps MGB and TGB , main and tail rotors and rigging the flight controls . I think assembling any helicopter in 36 hrs ( Robbies included ) would be a tough feat even for Toyota.( or the Indian equivalent ). I am trying to imagine a conversation between a texan pilot and outsourced indian Bell Product support . 'why is there a turban on your helicopter ?"

[ascj]

Todays news HAL assembles B407 in day and a half

Tomorrows news Pilot disassembles B407 in Minute and a half!

:E

[Ascend Charlie]

A more cynical reading would mean that they assembled the aircraft, then delivered it - which probably meant stuffing it into the back of a transporter. The subsequent restoration at the receiving end, of the rotor blades, tail fin etc and test flying was what took the one-and-a-half-days, sahib.

(Why does the rotor head wobble from side to side when I talk on the radio??):8

[Brian McL]

I see you are in India. I am looking at a couple of offers but am somewhat concerned about conditions there. Can you advise who, where and what to avoid . Also, which operators are the best / worst.
PM me and I maybe able to help you with a manual.....but doesn't your company have one in the A/C ??

[GoodGrief]

Why don't you make yourself a checklist then, if you have a manual?
Do it nicely on a page A5 and have it laminated.

[GoodGrief]

Buddy,
the check list in section 2 ,"Normal Procedures" ,of the flight manual, which is made and provided by the manufacturer was created by that same manufacturer and it is logical.
Just take out those little remarks here and there.


No more spoon feeding:=

[SHortshaft]

I am looking or a certified portable oxygen system for a Bell 407 to use in the high mountains. Anyone got any ideas, suggestion or recommendations? Thank in advance!

[jez d]

If it's portable, I don't think it needs to be 'approved'.

Best outlet for portable systems is Mountain High - www.mhoxygen.com (http://www.mhoxygen.com)

jez

[EN48]

All,

I am in the process of getting qualified on the B407 and thought it might be instructive to review the accident history of this acft. What I found was not what I expected, and I am wondering if others can help me interpret/understand what I found. The surprising thing is that it seems that 46% of all accidents in the NTSB database are attributed to mechanical failure of some sort, and of these, 29% of all accidents are due to engine failure of some kind. This seems substantially higher than other helicopters I am familiar with. For example, the Enstrom 480 has experienced only one accident due to a mechanical failure over the same time frame, and even adjusted for fleet size, this is a substantially lower rate. (The single 480 accident attributed to mechanical failure was probably an outlier as it resulted from the failure of recently installed elastomeric MR dampers which later proved to be defective in design; none of the 480 accidents are attributed to engine failure.) The Robinson R22 and R44 are said to have around 5%-7% of accidents attributable to mechanical failure, although I havent been able to confirm this with hard data.

So, what is going on here? Is this an anomaly due to bad or insufficient data, a lack of understanding on my part, or is there something else at work?

(Detailed 407 data below)

BELL 407 ACCIDENT ANALYSIS*: <18 Apr 2009>

1 PILOT ERROR: 27 48%
`
2 ENGINE FAILURE: 16 29%

2a TURBINE WHEELS: 5 9%

2b FADEC: 3 5%

2c OTHER: 8 14%

3 HANGER BEARINGS: 3 5%

4 TR LOSS OF CONTROL: 2 4%

5 OTHER MECHANICAL: 5 9%

6 OTHER NON-MECHANICAL: 3 5%

ALL MECHANICAL CAUSES: 26 46%

*Based on NTSB website as of 18 Apr 2009 – 56 reported accidents since 1996

38% of all accidents (21) involved fatalities

7% of all accidents (4) involved mechnical failure and fatalities

15% of accidents due to mechanical causes involved fatalities (4)

[widgeon]

these figures are not so much different from average of all helicopters.
Engines 15%.
Human factors 54%
All mechanical 32%.

I think that engine failure is line 2 , and 2a , 2b and 2c are subsets of line 2.


See

http://www.rotor.com/portals/12/Statistics%20Summary%201997-2006.xls

Interesting observation , I did detail analysis of 2006
While engine failure made up 21 of 164 accidents.
It was only primary cause in 1 of 26 fatal accidents that year.

compare that to wire strikes 9 of 164 accidents
but 5 of 26 fatal accidents.

[N707ZS]

A Bell 407 is a work horse whilst an Enstrom 480 is a rich boys toy and quite a rare ship.
Fire bombing and medivac work must put the 407 in a diffrent league.

[EN48]

an Enstrom 480 is a rich boys toy


Thanks for adding so much value to this thread! As it turns out, about as many 407's are owned by rich boys, and the 480 is increasingly being used in law enforcement and similar applications. Neither helicopter knows the financial status of the pilot/owner at the time of a malfunction.;)

[DoinTime]

It seems to me reading your user name, I am wondering if you are on a crusade for the Enstrom 480......:=

Maybe you should have looked at all mechanical failures in the helicopter industry, I am sure if you looked at that you might of taken up cycling instead (although, I am sure there are plenty of mechanical failures there too, ask the guy trying to break the land speed record:uhoh:).

When you are talking about engine failures I think you should look more at the engine itself, as far as manufacturer of the engine not aircraft.

The 407 is definitely a work horse. Usauly operated at high gross weights and in all types of environments, not just a toy or running around doing law enforcement, usually carrying two people, gear/equipment and fuel.... full gross weight??? (No offense to all you deputy dogs.)

I am not saying the 407 is a better machine :E but I find statistics can be made to say what ever the person making a case wants. There are so many variables.

My suggestion to you is get checked out on the bicycle, less fatilties..... or is there:} No one said flying helicopters was safe.:ok:

DT

[helonorth]

I really don't think you can draw any conclusions from the information. There really isn't much there. Have you flown the 407 yet? You'll probably forget all
about trying to split hairs with statistics when you do.

[EN48]

I am wondering if you are on a crusade for the Enstrom 480

I'm not on a crusade for anything except safe, professional grade flying. I have trained in the 407, R44, R22, and 480, and currently own a 480 as a time builder to get to "reasonable" insurance rates in a 407. My experience in all of these machines had been generally positive, with no malfunctions in any of them while I have been flying. Every helicopter is a bundle of compromises, including the 480, and each has its strengths and weaknesses. I am trying to get a better handle on the tradeoffs involved with the 407.


I think you should look more at the engine itself,


Agreed. And while the 407 engine is a 250 series, it is quite different from the C20. I am wondering if the the C47B has a siginificantly different pattern of failures?


Maybe you should have looked at all mechanical failures in the helicopter industry, I am sure if you looked at that you might of taken up cycling instead


Been flying airplanes for more than 40 years and am quite familiar with the data there. All airplanes are definitely not created equal when it comes to safety and reliability. I am relatively new to helicopters, but I suspect that the same is true for RW but to a different degree.

[EN48]

Have you flown the 407 yet? You'll probably forget all
about trying to split hairs with statistics when you do.

Yes - did the Bell Academy Initial Pilot/Ground course about a year ago, some additional flying in the meantime, and am back at Bell soon for recurrent. The 407 is a fantastic machine IMHO, with only a few relatively minor things to complain about - the biggest one being the cramped cockpit relative to an A-Star or a 119 (both of which have other more significant issues).

If 46% of accidents are due to mechanical malfunctions, this doesnt seem like splitting hairs if an accurate reflection of real world experience.

[alouette3]

What ,in your opinion, are the 'significant issues' with the Astar? I would not venture an opinion about a 407 if I have no time in it and I see you do not have time in an Astar.
If you are going purely by folklore, then I can say that an Astar with Arriel engines has a sterling record as far as engine failures go.To me, the Astar is a superior machine in every way.But then I am biased towards European and Sikorsky products and underwhelmed with the current line up Bell has to offer. But I will not make that a blanket judgement until I fly the 407/212/412/205/206.
Alt3.

[EN48]

What ,in your opinion, are the 'significant issues' with the Astar?


True, I have not acted as a pilot in the A-Star (but have been a pax on a number of occasions). My concerns are based on widely reported problems with support and parts availability and pricing in the U.S. For this info I am relying heavily on posts on Rotorheads, and on the Pro Pilot magazine annual surveys. Dont know if this is in the category of folklore or not. OTOH, there is much to like about the A-Star acft itself, especially the cabin layout. If this acft were as well supported in the U.S. as Bell products, it would be my first choice hands down. My only concern re safety is the possible issue with hydraulic failures (perhaps folklore), but as I understand it, a dual hydraulic system is now available.

[Ian Corrigible]

Those mechanical failure figures are far higher than most accepted numbers. Most OEMs (Agusta, Bell, Eurocopter) quote Human Factors as being accountable for ~75% of causes, with inherent mechanical failures being attributable for less than 10% (if memory serves). We should see some definitive figures from the Joint Helicopter Safety Analysis Team (JHSAT) (http://www.ihst.org) before too long.

And while the 407 engine is a 250 series, it is quite different from the C20. I am wondering if the the C47B has a siginificantly different pattern of failures?

The C47B has suffered from a couple of major design problems, including third stage turbine failures and FADEC failures (which led to a fleet stand-down and development of the reversionary governor after the tragic loss of a USFS 407 during the Challenger debris recovery effort in 2003).

I/C

[EN48]

Those mechanical failure figures are far higher than most accepted numbers. Most OEMs (Agusta, Bell, Eurocopter) quote Human Factors as being accountable for ~75% of causes, with inherent mechanical failures being attributable for less than 10% (if memory serves


Yes, this is pretty much the frame of reference I have had in mind for several years, and why I found the 407 data surprising. The numbers I cited are compiled by me on the basis of reading every NTSB accident report on the 407. Am I missing something?

[widgeon]

I agree with you figures I show 16 of the reported accidents as engine related.
Only bright spot is they have reduced in recent years , 6 of the accidents were in 2003.

[Ascend Charlie]

Perhaps the figures suggest something different: that pilots who fly the 407 have fewer human error-related accidents?:eek:

[GeorgeMandes]

You might review, for example, the last three years of 407 accidents and incidents, and redo your analysis to determine what the current statistics say, now that the 407 is mature, as opposed to its introduction as a new product. I took a quick look of reports in the NTSB data base since 2005, and saw 22 reports. While there were engine failures, you didn't see the type of events experienced early in the 407's history.

One can also make the argument, that in a perfect world, the only accidents would be mechanical problems, with pilot training reducing the human error accidents to almost zero. Since you have trained at Bell, you know how great their 407 training is.

I don't think comparing the 480 to the 407 is an apples to apples comparison, when you look at the number of 407s in the fleet and the number of hours flown by the 407 each year. Wouldn't the 407 fleet fly 100 times the annual hours flown by the 480 fleet?

In the last ten days, I flew a 407 from CO to AK, and a L4 from AK to CO. Two and a half days up in the 407, and four days down in the L4. Along the way, I stopped in Penticton and did two days of mountain training in the 407 with Canadian Helicopters. Previously I have made that trip from the lower 48 to Alaska, and also trained with Canadian Helicopters in the Jet Ranger, L4, and 530F. The 407 runs circles around all those other ships both in the mountain environment as well as on a long cross country flight.

While there are always opportunities for pilots to screw things up, the 407 makes the flying part a lot easier between its great power, the responsiveness of the rotor system, the tail rotor authority, and the ability to do slopes. Several months ago in the 407, we needed to climb high to cross a high mountain pass in Colorado with a bunch of wind and turbulence, and easily climbed to 15,500 feet where we were still climbing 700 fpm. If you mated an L4 with a high altitude tail rotor with a 530F, took their best attributes, and added in a bunch of attributes neither ship has, you end up with a 407.

[EN48]

you didn't see the type of events experienced early in the 407's history.

Good point. No doubt that the 407 mechanical malfunction rate seems to be improving over time.


I don't think comparing the 480 to the 407 is an apples to apples comparison


I am very much in agreement on this point, and was not intending to suggest that they are comparable. The 480 is the turbine I have the most experience with, and has a superb safety record, so it made me wonder about the reasons why the two are so different. There are about 130 480's flying vs about 800-900 407's, so no doubt that the 407 flys many more hours per year on a fleet basis, and that needs to be taken into consideration.

I am planning to do the Penticton mountain flying course in the near future. Keep hearing rave reviews.:ok:

[GeorgeMandes]

What Bell Helicopter is to emergency training, Canadian Helicopters in Penticton, BC is to mountain training.

[Spunk]

Maybe I'm wrong or missing something but I think the statistic is wrong.
I assume the entire fleet of Bell 407 is flying far more hours a day then the entire fleet of 480 does in a month.

[EN48]

Thanks to all who responded to my post. As a result of my post being merged with a larger 407 thread which I was not previously aware of, I have carefuly reviewed 12 pages of posts on the 407 dating to 2001 and now have a much better understanding of the issues I was inquiring about.

[DoinTime]

And your conclusion was???:eek:

[EN48]

And your conclusion was???http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif


My conclusion: The 407 has a history of malfuntions at an unusually high rate compared to other light turbines. The rate of malfunctions has improved significantly over time, but there MAY be lingering engine/FADEC issues still to be resolved (as suggested by a recent U.S. accident not yet in the NTSB database).

[GeorgeMandes]

Based on your 407 training at Bell, do you consider FADEC manual to be an emergency or abnormal?

[EN48]

do you consider FADEC manual to be an emergency or abnormal?


I consider it an abnormal as I did not find it all that difficult to deal with. Far easier than, say, hydraulics out.

Reading between your lines however, the accident I made reference to in my previous post was not a simple FADEC failure with a reversion to manual (and perhaps not a FADEC failure at all) as the engine either rolled back to idle or quit according to some close to the situation. From what I understand, no amount of throttle manipulation would have restored power (and the pilot is said to be very experienced overall and in the 407).

[docstone]

407 single channel, 130 twin channel

[EN48]

407 single channel, 130 twin channel


Hmmmm .... The 407 RFM states that with FADEC software 5.356 installed, "the engine uses a digital electronic control system based on two electronic governors called a primary channel and reversionary governor. The primary channel is a full-authority digital electronic control (FADEC) that controls, monitors and limits engine power while maintaining rotor speed. The reversionary governor can automatically take control of the engine in the event of a primary channel failure."

It is my understanding (possibly incorrect) that 5.356 software is installed on more recently produced aircraft.

[GeorgeMandes]

That version software is certainly installed on aircraft from November 2008 on, not sure when it started on new production aircraft. There is a new software version, soon to be released per the Bell Training Academy, that will further reduce the type sensor failures that will cause a switch to manual mode.

[Ian Corrigible]

The reversionary governor campaign on the 407 swaps out the A250-C47 FADEC's EMC-35A with the EMC-35R, a software change which incorporates the switch from single channel to dual channel.

The Arriel 2B1 on the EC130 (and later AS350B3s) features both a dual-channel FADEC and an independent automatic back-up channel.

I/C

[EN48]

There is a new software version, soon to be released per the Bell Training Academy


Just received revisions to my RFM/MD today, and this is apparently 5.358. A quick read indicates that this has substantially the same dual channel capability as 5.356, but with some tweaking of certain parameters. Example: NG at which FADEC does auto relight test is 55% for 5.358 and 50% for 5.356. There are several similar tweaks. Will be at BTA next week and hope to learn more.

[EN48]

Have been at Bell Academy this week for B407 recurrent and received a good dose of FADEC related information which I have summarized below to the best of my ability. The experts may wish to add or correct as appropriate.

Software version 5.358 is now installed in newly manufactured helicopters and a RFM/MD revison was issued recently to cover the changes. The changes in 5.358 are primarily aimed at reducing the instances in which the FADEC reverts to manual control (direct reversion to manual). Software 5.358 (and 5.356) incorporate a software reversionary channel which can take control of the engine in the event of a primary channel FADEC failure. This reversionary channel is limited in its capability (but the FADEC remains in AUTO mode), and does not support:
1. Automatic start with starter and ignition operation
2. Ng power modulation based on Power Lever Angle (PLA)
3. Temperature limiting
4. Automatic relight
5. Surge detection, recovery, and avoidance
6. Quiet Mode

Some RR data was presented which indicates that reversions to manual have been reduced by up to 70% (depending on which software version one is comparing to). :ok:

[victor papa]

The Arriel 2B1 carries 2 fully digital and independant lines within one DECU. If one fails, there will be no degredation of any engine performance as the other channel will take over with full authority. Upon shutdown the pilot will get an amber GOV light to inform him one of the lines were/is unhappy with something. It will give him a full flight report and for the technicians a maintenance screen is available listing fault codes with a list of posssible components causing the problem in sequence of probability. The code refers to the Maintenance manual were the fault finding steps are laid out step by step. Also, the 2B1 does it's own power checks and compute your margins. The DECU and VEMD is biased towards atmospheric conditions so the displayed fLI(first limit indicator) already takes atmospheric conditions into account. The vEMD also allow you to enter weight, alt, temp and will give you your IGE and oGE weight limits before and during flight.

If both of the lines fail you have a 3rd system called eBCAU which will regulate N2. The pilot will get a red GOV and the procedure is a caution to not do radical collective changes as the EBCAU does not read the collective as the 2 DECU channels does but it will govern the engine.

The nice thing about the 2B1 are the alternators driven by the engine(N1 signals). These power the engine and DECU so even if you have a full aircraft electrical system failure, the engine will retain full authority.

[EN48]

The nice thing about the 2B1 are the alternators .... These power the engine and DECU so even if you have a full aircraft electrical system failure, the engine will retain full authority.

A generally similar arrangement on the 407: an engine (Np) driven permanent magnet alternator (PMA) powers the FADEC (with NP > 85%) in the event of an aircraft electrical system failure. "Full authority" is retained unless there should also be a FADEC failure.

[Dynamic Component]

victor papa,

I can only prosume that the DECU that you reffer to is the same as the DECAU ??
Not being sarcastic- just checking if I was given the right info?


Cheers
DC:ouch:

[victor papa]

Dynamic component-I just double checked and it is according to Eurocopter called a DECU for Digital Engine Control Unit. The EBCAU is Engine Back-up Control Ancillary Unit.

I will double check tomorrow the Turbomeca books-one never knows with the French:rolleyes: but generally the A would be for ancillary which the DECU definately is not.