Acceptable delays and treatment?

[candoo]

Was booked on Kuwaiti Airways LHR-JFK Thursday 7th July scheduled to depart at 15:30. Arrived more than 3 hours early for check in due to the horrific events unfolding that morning. Check in opened about 12:45, just prior to checking in passengers were advised that there was a delay on the inbound from Kuwait and it was not expected to arrive at LHR until 18:00 - OK so another hour after that to embark and we should be off by about 19:30. Not too bad methinks a 4 hour delay at least we'll get there - not so!

We boarded about 20:00 and duly prepared for take off taxied out only to hear we would be returning to stand to have some problems with the navigation system checked out - loud groans all round particularly from the passengers who had travelled from Kuwait and been on the plane hours by now.

About 21:30 we were still on stand and advised engineers were stilll working on the problem but were confident we would be off in a short while. Next a glass of water was dished out along with 3 "small" triangle sandwiches. At 22:00 passengers were getting a little annoyed! At 23:00 captain announced "we have decided to give it up for the night".

Disembark and now of course nobody had a clue as to what was going on. All the pax from Kuwait had to go through immigration for their unexpected stop-over in the UK. All Kuwait staff and aircrew had disappeared at this point. American Airlines as handling agents were left to try and sort this mess out - under the circumstances they were bloody marvellous. We eventually left the baggage reclaim at about 02:30 to be put on coaches to various hotels and told which AA flight we would be on the following morning. Tired and hungry got to hotel about 03:30 to have to get up at 06:00 check for return coach to LHR.

Finally left LHR on AA at 11:55 a mere 8 hours or so late - but very tired, pi$$ed off and disillusioned.

The lack of care, consideration or information from Kuwait Airways was unbelievable. Anyone working in the baggage reclaim at LHR that night would clearly have seen the stress some families with small children were put under.

Some questions:

Why were we still on stand at LHR after 23:00 when surely we could not have taken off due to curfew anyway?

The tech problem was the same that caused the initial inbound delay - AA staff said flight should have been stopped at Kuwait, why wsn't it?

What sort of compensation should I go for - apart from inconvenience I lost a days vacation, had to pay for my breakfast at the hotel putting us up, had to pay for my hotel in the US for the lost night.

Came back on Kuwait yesterday and tried to discuss with their staff at JFK who basically couldn't have given a flying ****.

[The SSK]

Don't tell me...

You booked London New York return on Kuwait Airways because you thought you would get better service than on BA, Virgin, American, United...?

[redfred]

peanuts and monkeys?

[Final 3 Greens]

Desk Jockey and Redfred.

What planet are you on?

Kuwait Airways are a perfectly respectable IATA member and Candoo is quite entitled to criticise the service that he received.

In particular, talking about peanuts and monkeys could be taken as being quite offensive and racist in this context.

[The SSK]

It was the phrase 'what sort of compensation should I go for' that got up my nose.

He was given refreshments, he was given overnight accommodation, in compliance with the new EU rules on denied boarding compensation - good to see that 5th-freedom carriers are respecting the rules.

[Final 3 Greens]

True, but he lost a day of his holiday, why should he not seek redress for the delay?

This does not appear to be a weather related incident.

If he contact his travel insurers, they will probabky ask him to try to get compensation from the airline first, so I can't quite understand why his comment gets up your nose.

[Pax Vobiscum]

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's also unwise to pay too little. When you pay too much you lose a little money, that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do.

"The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it's well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough money to pay for something better."
John Ruskin (1819-1900)

[Final 3 Greens]

Pax Vobiscum

Great quote, but absolutely irrelevant in this instance, because:

1) We do not know that Kuwait Airways were the cheapest option, nor that they were chosen on price.

2) Fitness for purpose ("because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do") is not in question, it is the supporting service that is

So, IMHO, great quote, but wrong context.

[candoo]

Desk jockey

Yeah compensation probably too strong should have been more like - What sort of letter should I be writing? - but was still tired and had to fly somewhere else Monday.

I did use Kuwait for price reasons so I could maximise vacation spending, surely this does not mean that I should expect a less than reasonable level of customer service. Being stranded in T3 at LHR for 14 hours, 3.5 sitting on the plane and no information plus all the other issues is not, IMHO, a reasonable level of service.

What about the extra £350.00 I spent on in the terminal shopping whilst hanging around:}

[Final 3 Greens]

Just a little update for the Kermits on this thread, who criticized Candoo's choice of airline.

Sat 23 Jul BA107 KHR DXB 7 hour tech delay, no information provided about EU delays legislation (a legal requirement), cabin crew and ground crew denied having any info on EU delays legislation, when asked directly.

Dinner served on ground, after 5 hours holding in aircraft and about 2 hours before eventual departure on replacement a/c , but only small rolls on aircraft, that would have been the light snack before arrival (during 6.5 hour sector), in other words no extra catering provided, despite the sector expanding to circa 13 hours.

So who would like to talk about peanuts and monkeys now and quote Ruskin about quality??????

It was a pretty shabby experience.

[Pax Vobiscum]

Sorry to hear about your shabby treatment, F3G. I expect a strongly-worded missive is heading for a few managers' desks at BA (and quite right too)!

It sounds as though, like me, when you spend your hard-earned spondulicks on a ticket, part of the 'fitness for purpose' is getting to your destination at or around the advertised time. Even though it didn't work out in your recent experience, I would argue that there's a better chance of this happening if you're booked on a flight that originates at your starting point rather than (in the case of KU101) 3,000 miles away. This, of course, is part of the reason why such flights are often cheaper.

[mutt]

Why were we still on stand at LHR after 23:00 when surely we could not have taken off due to curfew anyway? Night takeoffs are permitted from LHR based upon a slot process. Its therefore possible that the aircraft could have taken off.

The tech problem was the same that caused the initial inbound delay - AA staff said flight should have been stopped at Kuwait, why wsn't it? Engineers will try to solve a problem, the solution may work, the aircraft will be released, the problem may re-occur

What sort of compensation should I go for - apart from inconvenience I lost a days vacation, had to pay for my breakfast at the hotel putting us up, had to pay for my hotel in the US for the lost night. None! AFAIK, the EU rules do not impose fines when flights are delayed for a technical reason.

Mutt

[candoo]

F3G sorry to hear of your ordeal, shabby experiences tend to stick in the mind.

mutt thanks for the info, have calmed down a lot now.

[419]

Mutt, I don't think your point about no compensation for delays caused by technical problems is correct.


The regulation exempts airlines from paying “if it can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken”. The exemption appears not to cover technical problems with the aircraft

[mutt]

419

Our company lawyers have stated that flights with technical delays will not incur a penalty.

Mutt

[Final 3 Greens]

Mutt

I guess that your company lawyer is probably thinking of note # 14, which states that "As under the Montreal Convention, obligations on operating air carriers should be limited or excluded in cases where where an event has been caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided by even if all reasonable measures had been taken. Such circumstances may, in particular, occur in cases of political instability, meteorological conditions incompatible with the operation of the flight concerned, security risks, UNEXPECTED FLIGHT SAFETY SHORTCOMINGS and strikes that affect the operation of an operatin gair carrier."

Although I'm neither a lawyer nor commercial pilot, it does seem to me that any tech fault that compromised the MEL would seem covered above.

It will be interesting to see what BA have to say to me, in reply to my letter to them, since the initial fault (FMC malfunction) was attended by an engineer, repaired and then new data downloaded.

There was then a "very similar" failure, according to the PA, that caused a further 4 hour delay.

I would certainly argue that the second delay could have been avoided if all reasonable measures had been taken, although I would accept that the first failure was likely to be an extraordinary circumstance.