Eagle advertising overseas

[romansandal]

Any truth to the rumour that Eagle have started advertising for new pilots overseas?

[Sqwark2000]

Romansandal,

No such rumour circulating the Eagle's Nest at the moment that I know of.... but as a guess it maybe they are advertising a management position, as 1 of the management pilots has apparantly resigned to go to Dragonair in August (that's not confirmed/official yet either!). They took an age to get this guy to sign on as a Managment pilot and that was after advertising externally in the local mainstream newspapers. Maybe they predict similar trouble recuiting such a person and have gone international in their search???

S2K

[romansandal]

That may be the case.

From what I understand, they would like to try and entice New Zealand pilots in Australia and abroad back to the country. I knew we were short of experienced pilots on the books but I didn't realise it was quite at the stage where international advertising was required.

[MOR]

So where are they advertising then? There is nothing in Flight International (yet).

If they want to entice pilots from overseas, they will have to do something drastic with the salaries, as well as opening the door to direct entry commands. Who is going to come back for peanuts and a right seat, in an aircraft that doesn't even have an autopilot?

[juliet]

MOR - me me me me me me me me me me!!!!!!!

[MOR]

Well you had better get your CV in then! ;)

What are you flying in the UK man, a 152? Reality check! If you come back, prepare for poverty and lots of hand flying. No advancement prospects either.

Still, it is nice to be living in NZ. Beats Europe.

Good luck!

[Sqwark2000]

MOR,

It's not exactly the breadline we are dealing with at Eagle, for a new Co coming in with relatively low experience (but all ATPL's) $37.6K as a starting salary is not too bad, not gold either but not bad. In 3yrs time a similar low experience (all ATPL's) new Co will start on $40K.

There's no problem what so ever with hand flying an aircraft, keeps the skills sharp and keeps the mind occupied. As to No advancement prospects??? Co's with less than 12mths seniority are being awarded commands at the moment, and both Co's & Captains alike are being interviewed by the big Koru.

I'm not aware of your expectations from a company like Eagle but it is certainly not the worst job in the world. Keep in mind what a regional 19-seater company is capable of both with revenue and renumeration capabilties.

Anyone out there thinking of Eagle as a prospective career path (albiet a stepping stone) I can fully recommend it (despite the current rostering debacle).

S2K

[MOR]

Well that just demonstrates the level of thinking when you are insulated from the rest of the world.

You would be hard-pressed to find any commuter operation in Europe that still uses aircraft with no autopilots. Why? Because the rest of the world knows that autopilots significantly enhance safety in critical phases of flight. This is especially so in aircraft with relatively low performance to start with, and almost certainly a relatively inexperienced crew.

Under JAA, it has been allowed for quite some time to use the autopilot during many parts of recurrent checks, including non-precision approaches. The rest of the world has cottoned on to the fact that one of the greatest assets to safety is decreasing workload during these phases of flight.

Flying 6+ sectors a day, in bad weather, by hand, may keep you sharp - but it also guarantees that you will be significantly more tired when you start your final approach of the day. Modern thinking has moved on from where Eagle are.

My point about prospects is that once you have that command, there is little left to achieve. ANZ may hire a few, but they will try and hire elsewhere as taking too many pilots from their own divisions will affect their bottom line.

No, it isn't the worst job in the world - it's better than flying in Vietnam for example - but it is hard to see how they will attract many expats who are probably captains already (but not if they go to Eagle), flying much better equipment, and on three times the money.

[haughtney1]

Have to agree with MOR on this one..(sorry MOR..I flew with the blackadderman again!)

Why would guys earning 3 times as much, flying in challenging and interesting modern airspace..oh and operating heavy jet transports..want to come back to a B1900...with no autoflight capability..?
Think about it for a second..............then wake up:hmm:

[juliet]

guys will always come back to nz because they dont want to live overseas their whole lives. who cares what you fly back in nz if you have been able to save £'s or US$'s, can buy a house and then get a job that covers all your costs. would be nice to have an autopilot etc but certainly wouldnt turn down the job because of a lack of said autopilot.

[Transition Layer]

From what I understand, they would like to try and entice New Zealand pilots in Australia...back to the country

You can have em!!! :}

TL :D

[reynoldsno1]

You would be hard-pressed to find any commuter operation in Europe that still uses aircraft with no autopilots. Why? Because the rest of the world knows that autopilots significantly enhance safety in critical phases of flight. This is especially so in aircraft with relatively low performance to start with
They took IFR approach certified GPS's instead of the autopilots.
I wouldn't say the B1900 is low performance for what it is asked to do, even relatively....

[MOR]

Well let's look at that. In the group of aircraft that are involved in multi-crew air transport operations, we have low-performance aircraft (like the B1900D), and medium-performance aircraft (B737 etc) and high-performance aircraft (GV etc).

So tell me which is safer... a tired crew on their sixth sector, in crappy wx all day, doing a hand-flown NDB/DME approach in a B1900, or a 737 crew, with full autoflight and flying a coupled approach? Especially considering the likely experience levels of each crew.

But no, hand-flying in bad wx makes men out of us... only a girl uses an autopilot... etc etc etc :rolleyes:

[reynoldsno1]

or a 737 crew, with full autoflight and flying a coupled approach
...a bit tricky doing that into Whangarei ... :eek:

[haughtney1]

Good point Reynolds....which is why you fly to minimums...using Heading select...and vertical speed...if your flying something with a bit of technology on-board...you also get a track bar to line up on the QDM inbound (on the EHSI) to the dual NDB...and back that up with the RMI. Stressful?..a little...easier and more accurate than hand flying..absolutely.

:ok:

[reynoldsno1]

you also get a track bar to line up on the QDM inbound (on the EHSI) to the dual NDB
Absolutely H, but perhaps the straight-in GPS approach is better then the dual NDB circling approach ....??

[MOR]

Funny, isn't it haughtney1 ...

None of these guys have the foggiest idea what it is like to fly with decent equipment...

[reynoldsno1]

Thank you for your patronisation. Eagle had a choice, and they made their selection based on the nature of their operations and the finances available - not because they didn't know what an auto-pilot was...:rolleyes:
Horses for courses.....

[MOR]

Oh no they didn't. They chose the equipment most likely to theoretically increase their chances of getting in to aerodromes in marginal weather, whilst cynically ignoring the clear safety benefits of an autoflight system. In other words, they were compelled by their bottom line, and somewhat less interested in maximising safety.

It is yet another example of the outdated attitudes that pervade the airlines in NZ. Ever since the complacency of the times of Erebus, NZ has been ignoring the worldwide developments in Human Factors research. From the original Swedavia report (regarded as laughable by other aviation authorities), to the present CAA refusal to accept any responsibility for safety, the whole system needs a major overhaul.

Things were much better in the days of MoT-CAD.

[reynoldsno1]

Wow, better duck the wagging finger...and the high horse....:ooh:

[splatgothebugs]

it always turns into a bloody slagging match dosen't it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! from a simple question about inticing overseas pilots to fly we get down to slagging the company for not having AP's.

MOR don't you think every pilot in EAG wants to have an AP for those days when your on your 8th sector? it seems this topic of AP's is just beatting a dead dog. We know we need them and we wont them but we aint going to get them. Because of this we have good SOPs which should keep everything inline for those days you talk of MOR.

I'm not going to bag automated flight decks but keep in mind that being complacent and relying on AP's can also get you killed coz the machine only does what its told.

splat :ok:

[yigy2]

MOR,

Did you also consider eagle air also employ pilots directly out of GA.

It's a fantastic opportunity for people looking multi crew turbine expereince. I'd prefer to fly their 1900D's with the gear they have on boad then a battered up piston twin with an autopilot that occasionally works

I

[MOR]

splat

I'm sure you do want them, and I agree you won't get them. However, where I disagree is on the subject of how you deal with it. The simple fact is that it is completely irrelevant how good your SOPs are, because SOPs cannot compensate for fatigue, or a failure of judgement caused by fatigue.

Sure, you can screw up in an automated flight deck, you can screw up in any flight deck. The trick is managing the risk, and you can't get past the fact that your 1900 crew are going to be a lot more "at risk" after a long day in crappy weather than a crew who have the help of an autopilot.

Airlines who are safety-focused manage the risk first and the commercial imperative second. That is why truly safety-focused airlines fill their aircraft up with all the toys.

If you think I am wrong, research aircraft accidents over the last 20 years and you will see my point.

Now the original point of the thread was about expat Kiwis being enticed home to fly these wonderful 1900s. Most of us who have worked in Europe have worked in a safety culture that would never contemplate asking crews to operate without all the necessary tools to get the job done with the maximum emphasis on safety - in fact under JAR most of it is mandated anyway. I suspect many of my fellow Euro workers will not want to come back for the sort of conditions on offer in NZ.

The biggest surprise for me is that so many Eagle people are so quick to defend a clearly flawed equipment choice, but there you go. It's the culture.

yigy2

Of course it is, but then we aren't talking about Kiwi GA pilots, we are talking about expats overseas, most of whom will be flying shiny new jet equipment at the moment.

[kavu]

Getting back to the topic at hand.

I know Eagle are getting worried about the lack of quality pilots in NZ. The idea of cadets schemes is something that will need to be addressed by Air NZ at some stage. The problem is not going away.

Applicants from overseas are getting thinner and thinner. Ones from Europe probably won't want to come back and fly but then places like the Carribean (sp?) and Africa might have a few pilots looking to come back.

Eagle look for the professional pilot. Someone who will eventually move to the Right seat. At the moment the quality and experience of some pilots in NZ is quite low and Eagle has washed out a lot of pilots. The standard is very high, and yes a few bad eggs do get through.

Now - I don't necessarily agree with there policy but it's not for me to change it. I also think that some training schools really need to get there act together and approx the bigger operators and ask them but they require from their students. Set up multi-crew training, interview technique courses, CV writing etc. Talk to management and see if they can provide a person to talk to the pilots coming through about interviews. Finesse.

I know it's probably been said before but I have seen and heard about guys/gals falling to pieces in a interview. Why?

A typical question being. "What would you do if the Captain flew below DHA or DA without being visible on an approach?"

A person said "He would lean over and smack the Captain and take over".

Probably not the correct answer but these people are the ones that need help. More finesse. It's a professional job..... Look and Act Professional and don't lie to them, they know more than you!!!
:ok:

[tinpis]

:rolleyes: Sounds like someones going to enjoy the mysterious Orient.

[kavu]

Petitefromage

Point noted. See PM

Kavu

[flying ginge]

Surely the bottom of the barrel is being scraped now in terms of new hires for Eagle? I can't think that there would be 10 guys/girls available for interviews every month or so with the required hours. But there's a heap who have been passed over because they didn't cut it at the over-the-top psycho-analysis 3 day lark. What a joke. And the axe is what you smash the captain with when he goes below DA.

[splatgothebugs]

Firstly I would like to say to KAVU Dirka dirka mohummad jihad with that out the way:p

MOR

I'm not trying to argue the fact that a beech crew is more likely to make mistakes after a hard day or that SOPs will protect us. I'm just trying to point out that management (not the ones who decided not to get APs) the others, do their best to make it as safe as they can without the APs by having good SOPs and hard checks (this part is not good:D )

As far as inticing overseas pilots its mainly been guys/girls from OZZY and AFRICA not european pilots, I admit we have a few and they are all good buggers but they moved back for lifestyle not career progression.

splat:ok:

eddited with thanks: My memory was a little fuzzy so i will have to go and buy the DVD

[MOR]

Splat

Fair enough. However, hard checks is another piece of Kiwi aviation nonsense that will hopefully change one day. Everybody else (in the western world) has moved on from the idea that a hard check is a good measure of a pilots ability. It isn't. That is why, under JAR, the autopilot is used extensively in checks. We look for other stuff these days.

Even in a largely hand-flown environment, loading up a pilot on a check doesn't prove a thing, except that all pilots will lose it when enough pressure is applied.

We used to have a problem with ex-RAF types who took the "stress them until they crack" approach to checking. Needless to say, we enjoyed ourselves hugely showing them how easily they could lose the plot. We never made that stuff part of the check, though, we saved it till "playtime" at the end of the sim detail.

Anyway good on your managers for doing the best they can with the resources they have.

[max rate]

Splat,

I think you will find it is "dirka dirka mohammad Jihad":8

[MrBlobby05]

don't you think every pilot in EAG wants to have an AP for those days when your on your 8th sector?

Even Origin only make you do 6 sectors without an autopilot. Id be seeing your local ALPA rep to get that changed!

[Split Flap]

Wow I'm no Eagle fan but theres also no way I would stand up for that dirty pile of english nuts and bolts that used to piss it's hydraulic fluid all over nelson tarmac on an almost daily basis, that is if you could get it started.
Now the 41 on the other hand....

[Don Won]

If the 32's more of a 'Man's' plane how come ypu guys get treated like Bit^%s:confused:

[MOR]

The 1900 operates on the basis that, if you hang enough aerodynamic surfaces on the thing, it will eventually have no choice but to fly straight and level.

The J32, being a man's aircraft, actually requires some piloting ability. And it is strong, has decent systems, and a fine British heritage.

I suppose that this implies that OP pilots are all real men, and that Eagle pilots are, you know, the other thing... no, surely that can't be right... :p

[NZLeardriver]

Why do these threads always end with the same people rehashing the same tired arguements?

Wasnt there a thread somewhere about Eagle recruiting overseas?

[tinpis]

Yer lucky yu lot.
In my day only planes we could aspire to was a Fletcher , Cub or Cessna 180/185.
All them had a hole in the bottom fer poopin poop outa.
I think the only twin flying was an old Aerocomm that went into the side of Ruapehu and and aerial mapping Beech 18 and some ghastly pommie thing.
I well remember instructors at Ardmore being paid a $1 a day.
The NAC jobs was for RNZAF wallys with Vampire time.aerocommander (http://www.teara.govt.nz/1966/D/DisastersAndMishapsAirLosses/RecentRuapehuCrashes/en)

[MOR]

Eee, by 'eck lad.... we 'ad it tough... lived in paper bag... ate handful of hot gravel... licked road clean w' tongue...

...and you try telling young folk that today... and they won't believe you!

;)