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Expanding
16th Jul 2005, 10:09
A320 Capt $125000.00 AU, FO 60%.

Jet Star Pilots once again are going to prostitute themselves this time to fly across the Tasman.

I hope you sleep well at night after cutting NJ crews wages, now putting Jet Connect crews out of work.

Gnadenburg
16th Jul 2005, 11:24
And NJS & Jetconnect aren't prostitutes too?

I would doubt NJS & Jetconnect pilots would work for much more than the above.

Australian pilots have certainly taken the P out of professional pilot in the last five years- Virgin Blue, Jetconnect, Jet Star & NJS- about in that order too.

Keep up the good work.

Calligula
16th Jul 2005, 12:13
But Oldmeadow is wispering in thier ears:

"trust me boys, you will get all of the rest of the QF groups flying, its just a matter of time. Dixon doesnt care about the concept of piloting standards so it doesnt matter that 1/2 of you dont have a HSC, most of you have failed selection for every other airline in the world and the B717 audit was a train smash. All you have to do is to continue to agree to work for almost nothing and it will all be yours........."

Capt Basil Brush
16th Jul 2005, 12:49
Its possible that Qantas started the downslide in Aussie pilot pay and conditions back when they voted in the B Scale pay - and selling out all future Qantas pilots employed AFTER themselves.

So that puts Qantas at the head of Gnads list.

Speedlever
16th Jul 2005, 12:53
Let's all remember that this started with Impulse, and the pilots who accepted the conditions.

BAE146
16th Jul 2005, 13:14
NO...NO...NO.... it started with Wazza Seymour and NJS in 1990 !

Kaptin M
16th Jul 2005, 13:24
Gardenbug, as much as it cost ALL of the incumbents at the time, 1989 was a watershed (the words of James Strong) for pilot unity.
Everything after that was a total re-build - and pilots dragged the chain, compared with the companies.

We (pilots) have some catching up to do.

WE need ONE voice for each collective group, forming a UNION to represent to represent the THREE collective grioups -and those THREE to be APEXED as ONE, imo.
GA.
REGIONAL
AIRLINES
EACH with their own, individual, strict guidelines, leading to a STRUCTURED CAREER path, for PROFESSSIONAL PILOTS.

Tearing each other apart, from day 1, can NOT realise our INDIVIDUAL aspirations.
It will only continue to further DESTROY each of your personal hopes!

Aspire to those same standards that you hoped to reach when you started your "career" , by uniting with your fellow professionals!

Capn Bloggs
16th Jul 2005, 13:54
NO...NO...NO.... it started with Wazza Seymour and NJS in 1990 !
Wrong. NJS pilots were paid AFAP award rates back then then (thanks to big TH). The [email protected] got mega more... Kkerriste...does that mean we should thank THEM for the current pay most of us aspire to??!! :{

Kapn: well said, as usual.

Big Jan
16th Jul 2005, 14:30
Expanding, you sure are an ill informed m0ron.
First of all the figure you quoted is incorrect.
Secondly, NJ pilots are the ones who undercut the Jetstar pilots to win the 717 contract in WA and good luck to them.
Third, the Jet Connect pilots were willing to accept less money than the Jetstar pilots are getting to contine across the Tasman.
Finally, what the [email protected] do the Jetstar pilots have to do with any of the above decisions.The way some of you m0rons carry on about the Jetstar pilots one would think they actually had some say in the way the Qantas board makes it's decisions.:ok:

Capn Bloggs
16th Jul 2005, 14:40
Awww c'mon ITCZ that was a good post! You should have left it up! :E

Gnadenburg
16th Jul 2005, 14:46
Basil Brush

I have stated here previously that the acceptance of B scale by QF S/O's to gain domestic positions the start of the rot. I got both sides of the coin from ppruners- the S\O's said they were sold out by former Australian Airlines pilots and the former Australian Airlines pilots stated they had no choice.

QF pilots understandably bleet at the current state of affairs but frustratingly, as an outsider, contribute significantly to the rot- very low paid 767 positions & a hypocritical contribution of professional expertise ( sic ) to Jetstar Asia.

I am happy to put QF pilots at the head of the list. Having come off second best in an EBA because of this.


Kaptain M

89 ideology is lost on me when I look at the top echelons of Virgin Blue pilot management and their contribution to contemporary conditions of service in Australia.

Captain Bloggs

In 1990 the AFAP was predominantly representing General Aviation. NJS pilots have never been far from G/A - a recent capitulation confirmation.

Keep up the good work- regionally, you've even got the Phillipino pilots sweating!
:ok:

Capn Bloggs
16th Jul 2005, 15:07
Gardenbug for President of the Australian Professional Pilots Association.

I can see it now: 29.47% pay claim and 9 to 5 til we get it! :ugh:

Gnadenburg
16th Jul 2005, 15:43
Captain Bloggs

I couldn't do worse for the NJS boys than a paycut & pay for a 717 endorsement.

Though honoured, I will have to politely decline your offer.

Casper
16th Jul 2005, 22:02
Just heard that Jet* have placed options on ANOTHER 42 aircraft. QF Domestic - RIP! The bloodbath continues.

Calligula
16th Jul 2005, 22:40
Gnads.

Having lived through the B737 B scale era, I can tell you the following is true.

The B737 B-Scale was concieved, engineered, sold to QAL and implimented by an AAPA representative.

Said representative is now a very high profile AIPA COM member who, of course, denies all knowledge.

rescue 1
17th Jul 2005, 00:06
I don't think we're seeing the full picture...

The quoted figures do seem a little light considering that currently J* earn AUD132870 with super - NOW!! Plus hourly rates after 75/month; at 900hrs a year that's about AUD180000. So as I understand it this figure is higher than Natjet/Jetconnect.

Don't blame the Jetconnect pilots nor the Natjet pilots (or for that matter the VB pilots), I'm sure they would welcome the same conditions as the old established carriers - but for them it pays more than GA and heaps more than unemployment benefits!

Expanding
17th Jul 2005, 00:29
Big jan truth hurts

Rescue 1, you are wrong. The figure you quote will be an A320 Capt wage in two years time. FO 60% of that. Overtime is not a given I heard no overtime for the next 12 mounths.

Sleep Well

BAE146
17th Jul 2005, 00:38
Bloggs, gotta tell you old pal, gnadenberg , is spot on. AFAP were representing GA at that time and Seymour knew it. No other airline work around at the time, so take it or leave it.

Wazza and NJS started the rot and I won't hear of anything else !

320321
17th Jul 2005, 01:24
“Australian pilots have certainly taken the P out of professional pilot in the last five years- Virgin Blue, Jetconnect, Jet Star & NJS- about in that order too.”

And yet the Airline industry in Australia continues to be the safest in the world despite a lack of professionalism. Amazing.

“Its possible that Qantas started the downslide / Let's all remember that this started with Impulse / NO...NO...NO.... it started with Wazza Seymour and NJS in 1990 ! / Jet Connect pilots were willing to accept less money than the Jetstar pilots are getting”

PPrune has seen some very naive debates before but this one takes the cake. Change in any industry is inevitable, especially one emerging from labor protected regulation that was the magnificent two airline policy.

To blame a radical re-drawing of the airline industry (all occupations, not just pilots) on a group of people as insignificant as “Impulse pilots” is to demonstrate a total lack of understanding of how business and government are adjusting to a new set of rules - global finance, deregulation, industry downturn, changing customer expectations, competition, government policy.

Any yet Australia is still a very lucrative place to be an airline pilot in comparison.

Kaptin M
17th Jul 2005, 01:58
Australia is still a very lucrative place to be an airline pilot in comparison. I seriously disagree with that statement.
Airline pilots' salaries in Oz, in comparison with cost of living expenses don't appear "very lucrative" when compared with salaries of pilots in other many countries, imho.
eg. pilots in Viet Nam, India, and China, are on MUCH higher salaries than most Australian airline pilots, but have MUCH lower cost of living expenses, leaving a vastly higher final disposable amount.

Gnadenburg
17th Jul 2005, 02:06
320321

Operationally, Australia is a benign environment for airliners. Add technological advances such as TCAS & EGPWS and safety a relative no brainer.

But the safe & efficient operation of an airliner the easy part of professionalism.

There is a lack of accountability for the continual degradation and undercutting of professional piloting conditions in Australia. It is freely justified on these pages by members of the low cost pilot camp; who generally take a swipe at QF pilots in what can only be professional envy at the huge disparity of conditiond of service.

The laissez-faire attitude of large numbers of Australian airline pilots to their conditions of service could coldly be deemed unprofessional. Because if you are willing to work for considerably less and undercut other pilots professionaly, it generally manifests itself in other professional aspects- poor quality training, rostering & safety structure etc. Anecdotal evidence is overwhelming from former & serving low cost pilots of a deterioration of the above mentioned.

It is easy to fly an airliner professionally. Pilots now pay for the privilege. But pilots paying for the privilege are realising it is not so easy to uphold and improve the profession- the easiest way forward is to undercut and compromise! That is taking the P out of professional piloting in my opinion.

320321 keep up the good work. :ok: Did you buy that rating?

tinpis
17th Jul 2005, 02:13
And yet the Airline industry in Australia continues to be the safest in the world despite a lack of professionalism. Amazing.

Nice weather ...low traffic...flat as a shit-carters hat.

Howard Hughes
17th Jul 2005, 02:23
Airline pilots' salaries in Oz, in comparison with cost of living expenses don't appear "very lucrative" when compared with salaries of pilots in other many countries, imho.

You may be right Kaptin, however for those willing to work for slightly less, you get to live in "the greatest country on earth" IMHO.

And for those who wish to chase the dollars, the opportunity is also there...

For me personally, I'm happier sleeping on a swag under the stars in Oz, than elsewhere sleeping on a mattress full of money whilst always dreaming of Oz!!

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

Gnadenburg
17th Jul 2005, 02:51
Howard Hughes

There is little accountability in your post. If conditions have halved in real terms over the last five years, where will the next five years take professional piloting in Australia?

A good percentage of low cost pilots today will become the working poor ie: having to fly 900 hours a year, eating cold sandwiches and paying for a Coke, well into their 60's to fund retirement.

On the other hand there will be a percentage of professional pilots well positioned. .

320321
17th Jul 2005, 03:01
“There is a lack of accountability for the continual degradation and undercutting of professional piloting conditions in Australia”

Perhaps you should make an appeal to the “market forces are being nasty to me” police. Who on earth are you expecting to be accountable for the natural evolution in market forces? God, perhaps.

“The laissez-faire attitude of large numbers of Australian airline pilots to their conditions of service could coldly be deemed unprofessional”

And so they should adopt your set of values and abandon their own?

“Because if you are willing to work for considerably less and undercut other pilots professionaly, it generally manifests itself in other professional aspects- poor quality training, rostering & safety structure etc.”

So you are suggesting that high salaries are responsible for good rostering, training and safety culture? Interesting how accident reports from airlines such as KA, AN and QF specifically referred to poor crew training being important factors.

Tinpis,

“Nice weather ...low traffic...flat as a shit-carters hat.”

True, but most airliner accidents that occur are not related to wx/terrain/traffic level. Maintainance errors are now becoming more common and human error, particularly amongst pilots, is the most common. To that end, Australia is doing something right.

Kaptin,

“pilots in Viet Nam, India, and China, are on MUCH higher salaries than most Australian airline pilots, but have MUCH lower cost of living expenses, leaving a vastly higher final disposable amount.”

SOME expats in these countries are paid more than SOME pilots in Australia are. The majority of pilots in China and India are paid considerably less than the majority of pilots in Australia.

Bolty McBolt
17th Jul 2005, 04:29
From an outsiders perspective i.e. Not a pilot.
This whole debate seems to miss a very important point.
Supply and demand.
As have been mentioned on many other threads .eg
Lockhart River accident..
Why you should pay for your endorsement!..
There is an over supply of pilots and rightly or wrongly the CEOs and managers of our employers are taking advantage of this = low pay for the new guys. I can't see the point of vilifying some employees of one or two airlines for the state of current affairs and wages.
Didn’t Godfrey sweet talk his (captains) pilots when staring up VB to take the lower pay for the early years to get the airline off the ground only to go back on his word a few years later when these same pilots asked for their reward (pay rise) for doing their bit, VB pilots told " i can replace you in a new york minute due to the plethora of pilots banging on his door.
Even if the above is pure rumour its a fine example of how over crowded your vocation has become and how reducing the costs of running an airline are being acheived by our managers

320321
"True, but most airliner accidents that occur are not related to wx/terrain/traffic level. Maintenance errors are now becoming more common and human error, particularly amongst pilots, is the most common."

Can you please provide examples of incidence where "Maintenance Errors" the cause relating to airline aircraft in Australia. This is new to me.


"CASPER"
"Just heard that Jet* have placed options on ANOTHER 42 aircraft. QF Domestic - RIP! The bloodbath continues"

Have just heard Jet* asia is gone.The A320s have been canx
The the line inspectors at Airbus are coming back to Aus because of no work esxcept 3 x A330 and the 380 construction has gone back. If Jet * have ordered new aircraft there are no tech reps to supervise contsruction..
a rumour me thinks

Capn Bloggs
17th Jul 2005, 05:00
BAe146,
Bloggs, gotta tell you old pal, gnadenberg , is spot on. AFAP were representing GA at that time and Seymour knew it. No other airline work around at the time, so take it or leave it.
Righto smarty pants. You tell me how much the NJS pilots were making when the Airlink contract started, and how much they would have been making had the scabs NOT taken over AN and TN, in other words had the two airline awards been allowed to continue on.

oicur12
17th Jul 2005, 05:16
Gnadenburg - "poor quality training, rostering & safety structure etc"

Cough, cough splutter. You obviously havent done to many KHH layover days.

Howard Hughes
17th Jul 2005, 05:17
Gnadenburg,

My comments were not intended to be a commentary on working conditions in Australia. They were merely an expression of my personal preference to live in Australia, along with the inference that whilst I prefer that scenario, others can, and do choose a different path.

I don't know where the dollars equals professionalism attitude comes from, but let me tell you the two are not co-dependant.

I will concede that airlines in a better financial situation do have available better safety resources, but it then becomes a management responsibility as to how these resources are allocated. To use the prevelant example, ie:Qantas v Jetstar, I expect both companies would have available very similar resources as well as expertise, as they are owned by the same company!!

Now to the BIG question of MONEY.

Cast aside all your preconceived ideas and think about this question.

Could you possibly entertain the thought that in the past pilot's were perhaps overpaid?

Now this is a heavily quantified question, but if you can even slightly contemplate the thought, then perhaps what is occuring in Australia is a correction of pilot salaries to a more sustainable level. My personal opinion is that's exactly what has happened, both here and overseas and that conditions will soon see improvement to a more sustainable level, given the changing aviation marketplace.

In the past pilots were paid as much as high court judges, whilst no less important, I certainly do not believe that my position is worth (in dollar terms) what a high court judge is paid. Now by the same token we are not "just glorified bus drivers" either as Bob's famous quote suggested. But surely you can agree that we fall somewhere in between and that remuneration should reflect that standing.

Furthermore, I regularly fly in excess of 800 hours and if this were to be extended to 900, I still don't think that I would be doing it that hard, still plenty of time for my other pursuits in life. After all the reason I got in to this profession was to fly, the more,(within the regulatory framework) the better as far as I am concerned. When I am no longer permitted to fly for a living, I will still continue to get airborne at every opportunity.

Cheers and happy flying, HH.

:ok:

PS: It is possible to have a wealthy retirement whether your on $50,000, $150,000 or $250,000, you just need to invest wisely instead of pissing it all up against a wall, in some seedy bar in Bangkok.;)

Gnadenburg
17th Jul 2005, 06:42
320321

Forgive me for the assumption, I could be wrong, but your professional masochism and that of the handle Zapata's Blood is strikingly similar.

On a recent post you were critical of Qantas pilots' industrial hijacking, or words as such, in maintaining and improving their conditions of service over the years.

Yet, perversely, the aberration in Australia at the moment where low cost pilots continually degrade their conditions and undercut each other is " market forces ".

I know QF pilots can be a hard bunch to love, but you and Zapata's Blood have a few issues.

You are trolling. But lucky for you it's a bad weekend for footy so we can sidetrack as usual.

My slant is obvious- Australian pilots are being bluffed. Training credits come with aircraft orders yet low cost pilots are bluffed into paying for training. Low cost pilots are bluffed by senior management into unneccessarily undercutting each other etc etc.

The culture that exists that the only way forward is to professionally undercut is unneccessary and displays professional ineptitude.

Do you have any views on the issues at hand or are you really just trolling or playing Devil's Advocate?


Howard Hughes

So are you saying QF pilots are overpaid?

BAE146
17th Jul 2005, 06:53
I didn't have a crystal ball back then Bloggs so I can't answer the last past of yuor question. The Airlink (Q-link these days) contract was a cost + deal. Wazza tendered and told the pilots what he was prepared to pay (them) -take it or leave it and they took it.

No different today, so I am told.

Howard Hughes
17th Jul 2005, 07:39
So are you saying QF pilots are overpaid?
Gnadenburg, is that what you disseminated from my abnormally lengthy post?

What I am saying is that aviation has gone through a considerable number of changes!!

In particular it seems the changes with regard to customer focus and company structure have accelerated in the last ten or so years resulting in a decline in relative pilot wages. From what I have seen, Qantas pilot group wages have remained fairly constant to what they were 10 years ago and will continue to diminish, whilst not in actual monetary terms, but when compared with others such as high court judges.

In comparison I expect the lower wages of your colleagues at Jetstar will continue to increase until such time as the difference is negligble. There will always be some difference given the distinction between the different types of flying ie:"longhaul" and "short haul" already present within the Qantas group.

I see the whole finger pointing exercise as to who started the demise as pointless. To blame GA, the regionals, and anyone else who may just earn less than a QF pilot is ridiculous. Australian aviation has been full of people who will work for less since I started out in the industry 22 years ago and I suspect they were around long before that.

Whilst Kaptin M and I are worlds apart on many subjects, he does have a point when he says that a structured career path is needed throughout all tiers of aviation. I don't believe however that total union control is the way for this to be achieved. There needs to be some form of institutional recognition for what is required to achieve each qualification, or perhaps some other form of recognition.

So in answer to your question, no I don't think that Qantas pilots are overpaid per se, although perhaps they were in the past. But I do think however, that there will be a closing of the gap between the 2 groups in the future.

Just a point of order on your previous post:A good percentage of low cost pilots today will become the working poor ie: having to fly 900 hours a year, eating cold sandwiches and paying for a Coke, well into their 60's to fund retirement. On the other hand there will be a percentage of professional pilots well positioned. I totally disagreewith this statement.

In the future I believe the low cost model will be the norm for airlines around the world, yes even the so called "legacy airlines" whilst they may offer business and first classes, they will still conform to the low cost model, for Qantas I suspect this will occur when the Pacifc routes are opened to all comers, whilst things have been delayed temporarily, it is only a matter of time... This change alone will require productivity gains from all areas of the company.

Whilst you may not agree with my thoughts entirely, I suspect that you must agree with me partially, hence your reticence to answer my initial question.

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

PS: To the chagrin of some, I would do this job for nothing I enjoy it so much! However one does need to live, I guess it all comes down to the lifestyle you wish to lead...

Capn Bloggs
17th Jul 2005, 12:05
146,
I didn't have a crystal ball back then Bloggs so I can't answer the last past of yuor question. The Airlink (Q-link these days) contract was a cost + deal. Wazza tendered and told the pilots what he was prepared to pay (them) -take it or leave it and they took it.
In other words, you have no idea what you are talking about. Crawl back into your gas-chamber and keep your trap shut.

Big Jan
17th Jul 2005, 12:42
A few more points Expanding,
1) The Jetstar pilots haven't even voted on a new EBA yet.
2)Rescue 1 is incorrect.The current base with super is even more than he stated.
3)You heard no overtime in the next twelve months.Well you have been incorrect about everything else you have posted on this topic but you might just be right on that score, but not because you have any facts.

Seriously Expanding, if you are what you describe yourself as in your profile you are so far out of your depth it's not funny! and why does what a group of people do in a profession you are not even a part of make you so upset.:suspect:

Three Bars
17th Jul 2005, 22:38
This argument has been going around in various guises for at least a couple of years now. We've had threads on the deteriorating pay and conditions of airlines pilots and the debates on supply and demand. We've had threads on what an airline pilot is worth compared to other professionals, and we've had threads on the sense of economic rationalism and the protection of Qantas' pacific routes from "competition". Oh, and of course we've had anti-Qantas threads by the truckful.

I argued long and hard on the threads about the pressure on airline wages because of pilot groups being played off against each other. I still feel that the situation will only stop when pilots are no longer prepared to cut each other's throats or pay for their endorsements. Of course, there are always many who tell me that as a QF pilot, I'm paid far too much and, others like Howard Hughes, are prepared to work for nothing really for love of the job. Of course, everybody's point of view is valid to them. I think Next Generation feels that everybody over 25 should be euthanised so that he can progress quickly to the left-hand seat and happily accept whatever pittance his employer deigns to pay him. In a way I admire his and Howard Hughes' love of the job - I used to feel that way too many years ago. It's funny how children, school, mortgage (and life in general) seem to jade you eventually so that the cockpit becomes just another office overseen by a boss who really doesn't give a s$#t about anything but money, and how much you're costing him.

So how will the situation change? For those who've argued the "supply and demand" equation it will only change when the demand for pilots exceeds supply. As I am now utterly convinced that there will NEVER be a shortage of those prepared to undercut and pay for endorsements to crack it in the bigtime (or whatever form it will take in the future), the supply will only dry up when the flying schools in this country are dead. The way that pilots' wages are heading, this will be inevitable for anyone other than those who have the cash available to fly for fun - probably guys in management who are looking for ways to blow their bonuses. I know that I would never advise my sons to seek a career in aviation - in my opinion, the industry is now well and truly stuffed!!!

The punters will continue to seek first class service at economy class prices and, to grab market share, the airlines will continue to attempt to provide it by having their employees subsidise it through ever-reducing (in real terms) pay and conditions. I look at the USA which, as always, sets the trend, and I despair for where the industry will be in ten years time. The "legacy" carriers (just love that term) will probably all concede to bankruptcy and disappear - todays' low cost carriers will become America's new "legacy" carriers. After a brief period of profitability, a new breed of even lower costs carriers will start up to lure away their customers with even lower prices, arrived at by the slash and burn wages provided to those leftovers from the bankrupt earlier legacy carriers' workforce who are not prepared (or too old) to seek another career path.

People will forget (and have indeed already forgotten) how potentially dangerous flying can still be when the holes in the cheese line up. Pilots are being progressivley reduced to the status of bus-drivers, except when something goes wrong, where the punters expect their lives to be saved by the professionalism in the flight deck. What is the relative worth of a pilot? Quite a lot, I imagine, since pilots are often the last link in the chain to prevent the company's management from fronting the courts to try to justify to the families of crash victims why their safety departments and flight operations systems had been cut to the bone to reduce the cost of that economy class seat to Melbourne to $25. But this argument too is lost on the economic rationalists to whom the world and all its people are just a factor in the bottom line.

So I must apologise for the length of this diatribe. It's my birthday and I am one year closer to retirement. In the industry as it stands, I just hope that I can keep what I have for the next 10 or 12 years so that I can go to the retirement knacker's yard with something left in the bank. To Howard Hughes and Next Generation - good luck to you! I'm sure that your employers are greatly heartened by your attitudes and views on the joy of flying. I hope that you can meet your family's expectations on the legacy of this period of aviation. Maybe I have just transitioned to the rank of boring old fart who sees nothing but gloom and doom - or maybe I have just listened to Geoff Dixon too much. But I think that the industry is at a watershed and that in 10 years time, these will be the glory days before aircraft became the Greyhound/Pioneer busses of the sky.

PS I completed the Qantas engagement survey and I wish the eager volunteers good luck - they have got a lot of work in front of them. :( :( :(

ur2
17th Jul 2005, 23:24
FACT;
2004/05 gross earnings $163,402 (A320 Capt J*)

Oh, EBA not signed off on yet.

BAE146
18th Jul 2005, 00:06
Bloggsy, go take a bex and a lie down :{

Thumbs up
18th Jul 2005, 01:43
Well saidThree Bars ,when you look at how the industry has changed in the last ten years,and the ten years before that,and the ten years before that,its frightening to imagine where we'll be in another 10.
Like you,I just hope to make it to the end (retirement) within an industry that still has some dignity,and I hope to be able to say I was proud to be a Pilot.
As a mate put it "loves the work,but hates the industry".

Oh.....................and Happy Birthday!!>:O :O

Mr.Buzzy
18th Jul 2005, 07:25
Well saidThree Bars ,when you look at how the industry has changed in the last ten years,and the ten years before that,and the ten years before that,its frightening to imagine where we'll be in another 10.

How very true!
Now lets take a look at every other industry in Australia...... See the comparison???? ... Doesnt take a genius to see that things change hey?

I think we all need to go back a few pages and read BOLTY MCBOLTS very accurate assessment of our industry. Perhaps it is the fact that he is an outsider looking in, that he sees things without his Serengettis, Brietling and bloated ego getting in the way.

Ask any doctor how many hours he has to work these days and whether he or she is being payed like doctors of 20 years ago?
And ask the people of Bundaberg (Dr. P^*$#k) if they are happy with the government allowing cheap labour in from overseas.

We're no different folks. It's pretty simple. (In an ideal world anyway)
1. Show govenment and the public that Aussie pilots do it better! (Just like Aussie doctors. Perhaps by drawing parallells to the P*&$%k case in QLD ) and that promoting local industry and employment is good for us all long term, regardless of industry! ( no easy task)
2. Stop blaming one another and unite. It really isnt any one groups fault!

If we cant do the above 2 items ( which it seems we cant ) and we enjoy the flexibility of "working a 6 month contract in Italy" before "cruising over to Spain for 12 months work" or "building some time in PNG or Africa" ie. we are happy to swap and trade workers then consider the "give 'n take" principle, listen to BAE146 and have a Bex and take a good lie down.........

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Howard Hughes
18th Jul 2005, 08:19
Gidday Three Bars,

Thank you for your most informative post, I must commend you on your writing skills, whilst differing in opinion to myself you have conveyed your message clearly and concisely and without malice, it is indeed a rarity on an anonymous forum and a credit to your good character.

I find it heartening to note that you once shared the same passion that myself and others feel for this industry, but saddened to think that you may not still share the same.

Whilst I said "I would do this job for nothing I enjoy it so much", this is not to be taken literally. It is meant only as an illustration of the passion that I show for aviation. In practical terms one must live, pay the mortgage, educate the kids and always have the latest gadgets as you so eloquently stated. As I said previously it all depends on the lifestyle that you wish to lead! For me I am happy with my position in life, I want for nothing and should be able to continue with my chosen pursuits well into retirement in 20 or so years, so I am in reality not that far behind you.

Where I may differ from you and others, is that I do not believe safety is directly related to payscale, there are safe pilots throughout all tiers of aviation, I would suggest that it is more related to an individuals own dedication to their chosen profession, rather than how much they earn that keeps the holes fom lining up. I do concede however that financial worries and an unstable work environment can be a contributing factor in safety related issues.

Lastly, as I stated previously I think that the piloting profession will always be regarded by the general public as sitting somewhere above that of a bus driver, but perhaps still below some other professions. Of course bus drivers are still charged with the same responsibilty to keep the holes from lining up, but are challenged by less variables and of course only 2 dimensions.

I hope I have clarified some of my thoughts for you, or at least made my position a little clearer.

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

coast2coast
18th Jul 2005, 09:42
Just skimmed through this one and three bars mate you are right onto it - nice to see at least someone knows what the hell is going on.

Im not convinced that Howard Hughes is actually a pilot. Sorry, havent read any of your other posts except what is in this thread, but I wouldnt be surprised if you were actually in management aka "the enemy" and just trying to feed some bs propaganda to the masses.

As a young pilot Im concerned about the future. I hope the AIPA CoM and others do the right thing for guys both today and down the track. My career and those of my peers depends on it.

Capt_Zoolander
18th Jul 2005, 10:24
Guys,

Sorry to break the bad news but,

The local "Garbo" driver earns more than most Pilots...

This won't change until you guys stick together instead of trying to stab each other in the back :^)

Good luck


:cool: :cool: :cool:

Howard Hughes
18th Jul 2005, 11:27
Im not convinced that Howard Hughes is actually a pilot. Sorry, havent read any of your other posts except what is in this thread, but I wouldnt be surprised if you were actually in management aka "the enemy" and just trying to feed some bs propaganda to the masses.
Coast2Coast, I am not sure how you came up with that summation? Just because I have a contrary opinion, how does that make me the enemy?

May I suggest that you go back and read the post's with an open mind, then come back and tell me honestly that you don't agree with some of what I have said!! Or do you think pilots sit above high court judges in the scheme of things? Do you also think that safety is reflected in what you are paid? Come on, open your eyes, I am not trying to persuade anyone, just saying what I see. Take a look for yourself....

I think Mr Buzzy summed it up better than I when he said:
Now lets take a look at every other industry in Australia...... See the comparison???? ... Doesnt take a genius to see that things change hey?

Think we all need to go back a few pages and read BOLTY MCBOLTS very accurate assessment of our industry. Perhaps it is the fact that he is an outsider looking in, that he sees things without his Serengettis, Brietling and bloated ego getting in the way.

Ask any doctor how many hours he has to work these days and whether he or she is being payed like doctors of 20 years ago?


Let me finish with one thing, CHANGE does and WILL happen, you can either embrace it and try and make it work for you, or you can end up a bitter and twisted old man...

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

jakethemuss
18th Jul 2005, 13:35
Gnads,

It's Oldmeadow or his bint Farrough.

Time to unite as one boys and have some fun.

If all the senior managers at Qantas come from Ansett, and Ansett is no longer here, what can Qantas employees expect?

Revolution.

Spotlight
18th Jul 2005, 15:04
Howard Mate

I also doubt your bona fides. But I am intrigued. You obviously won an argument at some stage using the high court judge analogy or, you have a well thought out argument using the high court judge analogy. Go for it!

ur2
18th Jul 2005, 22:51
Zoolander,
HA thats something comming from you, "stick together", What, just like you did in 1990 when you went crawling back.

Howard Hughes
18th Jul 2005, 23:45
Spotlight,

I have no agenda to push, I am merely calling it as I see it, so too are three bars and Bolty! It is not an argument mate, there will be no winner or loser.

So far not one naysayer, with the exception of Three Bars has put forth any thoughts of their own. It is much easier to stand on the sidelines and shout down any contrary point of view, than to have an honest look at where this profession is currently, or where it is headed.

Most pilotage skills these days are long gone, natural ability has long been taken out of the equation, aircraft have consistently developed better and better systems to protect pilots from themselves!! Logic and reasoning are the modern prerequisites for pilots, yet sadly both are missing in some of the more topical debates on these forums.

I will pull my head in now and watch from the sidelines. As I said earlier, I have no agenda to push, I am merely passionate about the industry in which I work, but I am not so blinded by my own self importance that I cannot see what is going on around me. Take a look at other industries, the majority of which support our friends and families and the logical comparisons between the two.
Then you may in fact see what I am talking about!

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

Kaptin M
18th Jul 2005, 23:48
Is it simply a co-incidence that Jet* has ex-Ansett "returnees" as the bulk of their senior captains?
Thereby providing a convenient "them and us" mentality, on a couple of fronts, in the wedge that's going to be driven into QF mainline.

You've just got to smile cynically when you read the ra-ra of "stick together", and know that Jet* management are going to be able to do whatever they WANT, with the new EBA, because none of the senior pilot group are qualified to lead by example - especially with their previous handlers - the ex-AN management - having been their masters in a previous life.

Big Jan
19th Jul 2005, 00:10
Kaptin M what is your definition of a senior captain and how do they get to lead the Jetstar pilot group in negotiations with Jetstar management ?

Gnadenburg
19th Jul 2005, 00:31
Kaptain M

Whether 89ers or heroes/returnees, the trends set by both camps in recent years disappointing. 89ers in Virgin Blue have done very well in management positions and for the rest it's nice to be home; the cost young pilots robbed of their money paying for training and relatively poor pay.

J* returnees have little choice in some respects, the unofficial blackbanning of them in the better airlines abroad and Virgin Blue, has played into Dixon's hands. He has started an Airbus airline with the cheapest baulk Airbus labour in the world.


jakethemuss

A little cheeky don't you think? The QF role in AN's demise convincing- political lobbying of life lines and foreign & Australian governments. AN staff had a taste of QF Management expertise too- Trevor Jensen & Gary Toomey. The former worthy of a long thread!


Howard Hughes & Low Cost Friends

I did read your post but the half time siren sounded. I asked the question about QF pilot's pay to see where you were really coming from- and your response answered my question.

Your prognosis is seriously flawed because of the precedent low cost pilots have set and your acceptence of a changing industry which though undeniable, certainly fleeces the pockets of senior pilot management and above.

This original topic was how the lowest paid pilots in the region are undercutting each other- needlessly the consensus of outsiders but low cost pilots such as yourselves launch into a long justification of your present circumstances forgetting this present undercutting another serious pilot battle about to be lost!

Insiders tell me a training/checking airmen in J* on A320's makes 135K a year. Like Virgin Blue pilots at parties a few years ago, stories of 180K are bandied about- base + super + allowances + loss of licence insurance + whatever they can find to boost relative meagre earnings.

135K a year for an Airbus Check Airmen is way below world standards- look at Flight International if you please. Booming India, China, MidEast etc will further pressure the premium. Where in the world does a check airmen on Airbus make so little? You name Bhutan I will name three others in excess etc.

I never put a figure of pay on cockpit professionalism. I did put into question are professional pilots who let slide, without any pressure, conditions of service for future generations just dropping the p out of professional? J* pay for your training is robbery considering free manafacturer training credits and taxation write offs but are you doing any lobbying as professional group to stop it? etc etc

Sadly, your allright as are a cadre of Virgin Blue pilots who received quick commands in a convenient period of industry change. But a legacy now remains- normal promotiom, pay fo your training and poorer conditions.

The greatest travesty of all is low cost pilots have only ever seen themselves bettered by undercutting others. So now, subject of the thread, Jetstar, National Jet and Jetconnect, regionally and by international standards underprivileged pilots, undercutting to the bone for an unclear professional improvement.

It all goes in one side and out the other, because as an outsider looking in I see the real pattern for low cost pilots as follows. EBA's won't realise any significant conditions of improvement. What can you give up? The lesson low cost pilots have learn't is to undercut. The next big payrise for J* will be to fly the PAcific at rates of pay equating a senior QF S/O or a junior QF F/O- and won't that teach 'em!

So your prognosis of a creep of low cost pilot conditons toward that of the incumbant QF's rosey IMHO. There is no precedent or professional effort to suggest other than a further gradual deterioration in real economic terms!

Keep up the good work.:ok:

golow
19th Jul 2005, 00:43
UR2
You made $30000 odd more than me, you must have worked a lot of overtime!!! The FO was telling me he made about $80000 less than you. I bet you think FO's should vote to take a low 60% . Remember commands finish in about 6 to 7 months time with no more aircraft coming from early next year.

Kaptin M
19th Jul 2005, 01:49
To answer your question, Big Jan, my definition of a senior J* captain, is one who is in a check/training role in J*, and these are very predominantly ex-AN people, and specifically those previously mentioned.
These are the individuals that the other pilots - esp. the F/O's - will be looking and listening to, for leadership, and support.

As nice a country as Australia is climatically and scenically, it is hellishly savage on personal (and other) income taxes.
That's more palatable IF you are able to offset that high level of tax against other investments (eg. property), but at the modest salaries of today's Australian pilots, the prospect of ever affording anything other than your family home, is pretty bleak.

Airline pilots in Oz are now almost certainly flying more hours per month than those in any other country in the world - but your post tax salaries are lagging way BEHIND, and on an hourly rate put you amongst the cheapest.

As Gardenbug stated, "The greatest travesty of all is (Australian) low cost pilots have only ever seen themselves bettered by undercutting others.", and with that in mind why should Jet* management offer ANYTHING, other than a "Take it or leave - you're easily replaced"?

Looking at the reality of the situation, there are so many young(ish) captains in Virgin Blue and Jet*, that it's possible there is a generation of F/O's who might NEVER see a command, and will spend a lifetime on a crap salary.

But, of course, they be "flying jets in Oz"! :ok: :bored:

What-ho Squiffy!
19th Jul 2005, 02:25
Getting pilots together as a cohesive group = trying to herd cats.
:ok:

Capn Bloggs
19th Jul 2005, 02:28
Especially with Kind, Understanding Nice Types like Gardenbug providing moral support, leadership and a plan of attack so that he and his industrial heavyweights can help us dig ourselves out of this mess...

BankAngle50
19th Jul 2005, 04:26
JQ pilots finally have EBA win. Workers of the World Unite!New crew meal, see below.

http://i.timeinc.net/time/daily/special/photo/salgado/workers.jpg


mon-fri selection. Opener not included due DOTARS.
http://www.curlyprose.co.uk/images/Food-Baked-Beans.JPG

320321
19th Jul 2005, 04:36
Bolty,

“Can you please provide examples of incidence where "Maintenance Errors" the cause relating to airline aircraft in Australia. This is new to me.”

The whole point I am trying to make is that although Australia has moderate weather, reasonable terrain and in some places low traffic levels, this is not the reason we have never had a fatal jet airliner accident. These factors are not significant contributors to accident rates. Human error is the main cause of accidents by far – pilot, ATC, Engineer. Once again, to that end, Australia has done exceptionally well – maintenance wise included.

Kaptin m

“Airline pilots in Oz are now almost certainly flying more hours per month than those in any other country in the world”

Interesting, I know guys in HKG and SIN who routinely log 90 plus hours per month, in some cases hitting the big 100. Some of the short haulers in Europe do the same.

Gnadenburg,

“Forgive me for the assumption, I could be wrong, but your professional masochism”

Masochism – not really sure how you arrived at that.

“that of the handle Zapata's Blood is strikingly similar.”

Has it occurred to you that there are actually many people who do not share your point of view? The majority of pilots working in Australia would take offence at your comment regarding professionalism. But if it makes you feel better pretending all dissenting opinions only belong to one person, then so be it.

“Do you have any views on the issues at hand or are you really just trolling or playing Devil's Advocate?”

I thought my views were very clear but feel free to ask me a specific question. I am new to pprune so please explain what “trolling” is.

“He has started an Airbus airline with the cheapest baulk Airbus labour in the world.”

Would you like a comprehensive list of airlines around the world that pay a hell of a lot less than Jetstar? This could get very tedious.

Big Jan
19th Jul 2005, 05:14
"To answer your question, Big Jan, my definition of a senior J* captain, is one who is in a check/training role in J*, and these are very predominantly ex-AN people, and specifically those previously mentioned.
These are the individuals that the other pilots - esp. the F/O's - will be looking and listening to, for leadership, and support."

I think you will find that the guy's you have defined as senior Jetstar pilots had absoloutely nothing to do with negotiating the new EBA.I think you will also find that the entire training organisation of the 717 which half the company is still flying does not have any ex Ansett people in it whatsoever.This means that most people have as yet had no contact with the people that you are describing.There are already a pile of people that these other pilots and FO's have been flying with for years if they are going to be looking for leadership and or support.

Whether the Jetstar pilots accept this EBA in it's present form or not it really has nothing to do with you.As you said at the end of your post (sarcastically) "they be flying jets in OZ"
Thats right ! and it's something you will never be doing :ok:

2FarCanard
19th Jul 2005, 07:48
320321,

Sorry i have to ask, is there something wrong with your computer?

Or is there crappy french airbus logic in your keyboard?:O

FatEric
19th Jul 2005, 17:50
Gnads,

Just picture this for a second. The CX management takeover of KA involves a requirement for all tech crew to accept 20% lower pay scale as the airline morphs into an LCC to compete with HKG express and a new LCC in Macau.

This may involve you upgrading to command quickly as the A330’s will be replaced by more 320’s. However, your command C scale will see you netting only marginally more than your current FO B scale pay (that you happily accepted by the way).

This is purely hypothetical as no line crews really know which direction KA will be heading in. However, such a scenario is not uncommon in the world of aviation and has occurred at airlines such as KA before.

So, what would you do in such a situation?

Also, exactly how many crews are covered by “free manafacturer training credits” when an airline such as Jetstar orders 40 plus aircraft. Is training covered for all crews or just enough to cover the first few aircraft?

And finally, you refer to booming India. An associate of mine will shortly be joining Indian Airlines where, after gaining command (only a couple of years), he will be paid the equivalent of 2500 AUD per month. How does this compare to Jetstar?

Gnadenburg
19th Jul 2005, 23:19
FatEric

Rambling on there but I see you take a very similar stance to Zaptas Blood & 320321; without a comment as to why it is the way of the world or neccessary for pilots to be undercutting each other.

The fact is 135K for a Check & Trg Airmen on Airbus is below par. Couple the fact that it is now the norm for pilots to pay for their rating. The premium will increase for the above mentioned Airbus qualified because of India & China & the rest of the world having an insatiable need for their skills- your Indian friend is one of the few Airbus pilots paid lower than J*.

Back to the thread. Why is it low cost pilots in Australia deem it neccessary to undercut each other to progress?

CaptainBloggs

Hit a raw nerve it seems? Some of you have been fortunate. Industry circumstances have led to changes in Australia where low cost carriers have spawned and growth aided by the collapse of Ansett.

The first wave, quick promotion etc, have been lucky and are well positioned.

Why don't you do something? Progression through undercutting of other pilot groups can't be neccessary? Or is it just an ingrained Impulse like culture?

320321

Could you list a single airline around the world that requires you to pay for your rating and than offers 135K a year for an Airbus training captain?


The topic is: poorly paid pilots in Australia making half of what pilots made a few years ago, or, alternative view, suitably remunerated pilots by Australian standards, are undercutting each.

All the sidetracking aside, and without quantifying pay and conditions, the undercutting practice of the last few years a deleterious long term professional prospect.

Kaptin M
20th Jul 2005, 00:14
"they be flying jets in OZ"
Thats right ! and it's something you will never be doing :ok:That's something I have ALREADY DONE, Big Jan - 4 different types (DC9, 737-200, 737-300, 767) over a period of 13 years - and THAT is something I doubt very much you will achieve.
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt to prove it. :}

Fat Eric, your associate must be going in on local terms - the expat salaries I have been sent are around USD9,000 per month.
Is he an Indian national, with just a basic licence? Because that is the level that the airlines in India are taking F/O's at.
Read the other forums - I particularly liked the story of one pilot who "abandoned ship" (and pax) at an outstation because he got a better offer of employment from another company.

It's pretty common knowledge that the DragonAir guys (and gals) are on better conditions than those of the CX pilots - so if what you say is correct, wrt them taking a 20% pay cut, it probably brings them down to the CX payscales.
But as you state, "This is purely hypothetical".

The younger guys in airlines in Australia should have a look at where they are allowing themselves to be led.
As I said earlier, I can see a generation of F/O's - current ones - who might possibly NEVER see a command, because the ages of the current Captains are approximately the same!
Job sharing, to keep the peace? (ie. Everyone's a Captain...."Can I buy my lhs endorsement?"....and everyone's on $2,000 a month!)

404 Titan
20th Jul 2005, 00:54
Kaptin M
It's pretty common knowledge that the DragonAir guys (and gals) are on better conditions than those of the CX pilots
Cathay Pacific (CX) & Dragonair (KA)

This is basic pay only and doesnt include allowances or housing.


Year, CX Annual, CX Monthly, KA Annual, KA Monthly, %less CX

SO
1 $386,556.00 $32,213.00 $341,952.00 $28,496.00 13.04%
2 $432,960.00 $36,080.00
3 $484,920.00 $40,410.00
4 $543,108.00 $45,259.00

JFO
1 $ 593,052.00 $ 49,421.00 $ 458,220.00 $ 38,185.00 29.43%
2 $ 664,224.00 $ 55,352.00 $ 574,476.00 $ 47,873.00 15.62%

FO
1 $ 771,180.00 $ 64,265.00 $ 683,904.00 $ 56,992.00 12.76%
2 $ 784,116.00 $ 65,343.00 $ 697,560.00 $ 58,130.00 12.41%
3 $ 797,316.00 $ 66,443.00 $ 711,516.00 $ 59,293.00 12.06%
4 $ 810,780.00 $ 67,565.00 $ 725,736.00 $ 60,478.00 11.72%

SFO
1 $ 838,248.00 $ 69,854.00 $ 740,280.00 $ 61,690.00 13.23%
2 $ 859,668.00 $ 71,639.00 $ 755,064.00 $ 62,922.00 13.85%
3 $ 881,736.00 $ 73,478.00 $ 770,184.00 $ 64,182.00 14.48%
4 $ 904,452.00 $ 75,371.00 $ 785,568.00 $ 65,464.00 15.13%
5 $ 927,864.00 $ 77,322.00 $ 801,264.00 $ 66,772.00 15.80%
6 $ 951,972.00 $ 79,331.00 $ 801,264.00 $ 66,772.00 18.81%

CAPT
1 $ 1,180,500.00 $ 98,375.00 $ 1,020,720.00 $ 85,060.00 15.65%
2 $ 1,201,620.00 $ 100,135.00 $ 1,041,156.00 $ 86,763.00 15.41%

Senior CAPT
1 $ 1,223,136.00 $ 101,928.00 $ 1,061,976.00 $ 88,498.00 15.18%
2 $ 1,245,096.00 $ 103,758.00 $ 1,083,192.00 $ 90,266.00 14.95%
3 $ 1,267,488.00 $ 105,624.00 $ 1,104,864.00 $ 92,072.00 14.72%
4 $ 1,290,336.00 $ 107,528.00 $ 1,126,932.00 $ 93,911.00 14.50%
5 $ 1,313,628.00 $ 109,469.00 $ 1,149,504.00 $ 95,792.00 14.28%
6 $ 1,337,400.00 $ 111,450.00 $ 1,172,508.00 $ 97,709.00 14.06%
7 $ 1,361,640.00 $ 113,470.00 $ 1,195,920.00 $ 99,660.00 13.86%
8 $ 1,386,360.00 $ 115,530.00 $ 1,219,848.00 $ 101,654.00 13.65%
9 $ 1,411,584.00 $ 117,632.00 $ 1,232,040.00 $ 102,670.00 14.57%
10 $ 1,437,324.00 $ 119,777.00 $ 1,244,364.00 $ 103,697.00 15.51%
11 $ 1,463,544.00 $ 121,962.00 $ 1,256,808.00 $ 104,734.00 16.45%
12 $ 1,490,316.00 $ 124,193.00 $ 1,269,360.00 $ 105,780.00 17.41%
13 $ 1,517,616.00 $ 126,468.00 $ 1,282,056.00 $ 106,838.00 18.37%
14 $ 1,545,456.00 $ 128,788.00 $ 1,282,056.00 20.55%
15 $ 1,573,872.00 $ 131,156.00 $ 1,282,056.00 22.76%
16 $ 1,602,828.00 $ 133,569.00 $ 1,282,056.00 25.02%
17 $ 1,632,384.00 $ 136,032.00 $ 1,282,056.00 27.33%

Kaptin M
20th Jul 2005, 01:00
Thanks 404 T - that's a lot of work.
It's the allowances (housing, travel, etc) that push the KA guys ahead, I believe.

Otto2
20th Jul 2005, 01:30
Most KA guys/gals join at the 1st yr FO rate.
How long have guys/gals in CX been SOs?
Then who gets to the Capt pay earlier?
I hear over time at KA is a common occurrence and can account for up to HKD30000 per month for a Capt.
KA pay an annual travel benefit, a mate gets HKD90000, CX don’t for new hires.
KA pilots work harder and get paid for it but I am sure they would rather more time off.
The grass is always greener.

404 Titan
20th Jul 2005, 01:35
Kaptin M

They may have been but from what I am lead to believe KA management are fast attacking their conditions of service. I think there housing is still better (similar to ours before we allowed CX to give us something inferior last year). I think where they make it up big time is there seems to be a different way that KA declares housing to the IRD (Tax office in Hong Kong) and they get taxed at a lower tax rate than what we do at CX. I could be wrong so if someone at KA wants to correct me, go for it.

Big Jan
20th Jul 2005, 02:02
My mistake Kaptin, I left out one word at the end of my last line.
AGAIN.
Remember last time you RE applied to an Australian airline and got knocked back.Even with your vast experience.
Enjoy wearing that T-shirt in Japan, I'm sure all the locals will be impressed.:}

FatEric
20th Jul 2005, 03:50
Gnads,

I have only posted on this thread once and at no stage did I comment on pilots “undercutting each other”. Perhaps you could refine your debating skills a little.

You are ready to question others and yet you have dodged a few direct questions yourself. Feel free to comment on how you would respond to the hypothetical situation I posed and also the question regarding training credits.

Also, are you sure it is a “fact” that Airbus pilots in Australia are paid below par or is it just your opinion? But more importantly, what exactly is PAR when it comes to A320 check pilot salary in Australia. Where do you get your numbers from – how do you quantify it? What’s the magic number?

Kaptin M,

My associate is an Indian national with military fast jet time. Some carriers are offering positions to expats to fill the void as deregulation kicks in but the vast majority of airline pilots in India would happily accept the salary offered by Jetstar.

Ronnie Honker
20th Jul 2005, 04:59
I would seriously doubt the good Kapitan would be interested in returning here to fly with undercutting 5cabs such as your self B J (are your initials a pre-emptor of part of your negotiation strategy?).:ok:

Icebreaker
20th Jul 2005, 05:35
FatEric,

gnads is correct re the below par OZ pay - the going rate for an A320/737 line capt is $9000+ USD (tax free !) plus per diems and education allow for the kids.
If you need proof just look at any of the operators' or contract company websites - eg KF or AD in India, Virg Nigeria, Singapore operators, Middle East (QR, A/Arabia/Jaz), Air Viet., Macau, Starfly in JPY, Taiwan, UK - EasyJ and Ryan.
If you are a TRI add 10% to that.

It's all about supply and demand - plain and simple. OZ has heaps of willing participants so employers don't have to pay more. It's no different to Oil prices or pork bellies!


UR2,
you must have included your super in your gross calculations, otherwise you would have had to be a L1 or L2 doing 100 hrs/month and the odd WDO.

Big Jan
20th Jul 2005, 06:35
Well Ronnie he did just that!
He is a wannabe 5cab who was rejected when he tried to go back during the year we cannot mention.
It wouldn't surprise me to hear that he has applied to Impulse, Virgin and Jetstar and I'm sure none of them would have him either.
Oh and by the way Ronnie, you might want to look up the definition of the word in the dictionary.:p

Ronnie Honker
20th Jul 2005, 07:35
But all of those airlines - and QANdom - have 5cabs, B J.
It isnt the first time I see you have been nominated, either.
Care to fill us in as to why you have a compunction to degrade other pilots conditions by underbidding on pay rates, B J?
Blacklegging, its called - look it up in the OED (its a synonym for 5cab).

Big Jan
20th Jul 2005, 09:26
So whose pay rate has been degraded by what Jetstar pilots are paid ? and if a pilot from said company accepts those pay rates would that not be the pot calling the kettle black.
My post was to point out that KaptinM/RonnieHonker the plonker would never be affected by what rate Jetstar pilots work for and therefore should keep his Honker out of other peoples business.
There is also a big difference between a 5cab and someone who tried to 5cab but was rejected.:{

Ronnie Honker
20th Jul 2005, 09:56
My post was to point out that KaptinM/RonnieHonker the plonker would never be affected by what rate Jetstar pilots work for You had better hope not B J. The day JetStar operate over any QANTAS route in place of a mainline aircraft is the day you eat your words.
I dont give a fat rats rissole about who you think tried to scab a decade and a half ago - you and your lot are prime examples of wannabe 5cab5 here and NOW.:ok:

Capn Bloggs
20th Jul 2005, 10:01
KF or AD in India, Virg Nigeria, Singapore operators, Middle East (QR, A/Arabia/Jaz), Air Viet., Macau, Starfly in JPY, Taiwan, UK - EasyJ and Ryan.

Yahoo! THE green grass!

Ronnie, where do I sign??!!

Capt_Zoolander
20th Jul 2005, 10:47
Ur2 said,

"Zoolander,
HA thats something comming from you, "stick together", What, just like you did in 1990 when you went crawling back"



Yawn...

Perhaps you should do a little more research before you make accusations like that :^)

As long as you guys are prepared to be screwed the management will take advantage of it, either do something about it, shut up or resign if you don't like it.


:cool: :cool: :cool:

Big Jan
20th Jul 2005, 11:07
Plonker , you don't work for Qantas so why would that upset you so much ? If you are not KrapMuncher than who do you work for ? and what words will I have to eat ?:confused:

jack red
20th Jul 2005, 11:53
QF / J* management must love reading this sh!t :ok:

Ronnie Honker
21st Jul 2005, 03:33
Big Jane, stop pretending to be a pilot - stay in the cabin crew forum with the other girls.
I'll push the call button if I want advice from the rear end.
Stop stirring the pot here.

Big Jan
21st Jul 2005, 04:54
Plonker/KrapMuncher
Next time just say nah nah nah nah nah nah, because its just as pathetic as the [email protected] you you just dribbled.:sad:

Ronnie Honker
21st Jul 2005, 05:38
You take the bait too easily, BJ - take Woomera's advice, get out and sniff around some other forums....otherwise you might loose it althogether:ok:

Capn Bloggs
21st Jul 2005, 06:54
Ronnie,

I think it would be best if YOU and Gardenbug (where's the glyphosate?) buzzed off to some other forum so the rest of us could discuss this issue calmly and logically...

Gnadenburg
22nd Jul 2005, 04:36
Captain Bloggs & Big Jan

Firstly, Bloggs. That only a handful of world wide operators of Airbus were listed, all with better remunertion than J*, a point probably lost on you. Yes they weren't desirable jobs as you alluded to, but we are establishing a relative market. That no mention was made of the many legacy carriers, and comparisons of J* wages was in the main to those of developing nations, should not be lost on you.

The point could have been reinforced better by stating - " Who in the world pays less than J* for expereinced Airbus pilots? " This is where the many faces of Fat Eric would return into the fray, listing Bengali and Bhutanese Airbus pilots as happily working for J* wages.

Now Jan & Bloggs listen up. One of you in an above post, by your own admission, has admitted to a tactic of professionally undercutting contemporary QF pilots. Further stating it is none of anyone's business unless you work for QF.

I disagree. And I am not a visionary and to an extent, basing my pessimistic outlook on the legacy Impulse pilots have left. In a world of globalisation, the insatiable desire and firm belief ( by Australian low cost pilots ) that the only way to progress is to professionally undercut, is probably going to end in tears.

The legacy the orginal Impulse pilot group left- undercutting for contracts and paying for jet endorsements- has affected all Australian pilots and reshaped the marketplace. The orginal Impulse pilots have done well, using experienced gained to progress to normal paying jobs or if unable or not wanting to move, have been very lucky at being baled out by QF and used to compete against the very monster they created in Australia- although Virgin Blue pilots have made more industrial progress than Impulse/J* incidently.

The next round, the destruction of QF conditions of service by J*, will have serious regional ramifications for pilots.


Fat Eric

You digress but your reference to Indian military fast jet pilots interesting. Firstly, unlike first world military pilots, Indian AF qualifications are as transferable on the international pilot market place as that of having a bare bones Australian CPL. This is not to detract from the bravery and skill of flying an old Mig27 at 600kts around the highest battlefield in the world, the Kashmir region, with a map and a compass and a deplorable safety record.

But the surge in Indian civil aviation will see a huge demand for Indian military pilots at home. Will they go down the road of Far East Asia with it's inherent safety problems- namely Korea & Taiwan- attributed directly, in the case of Korea specifically, with the unsuccessful transition of a developing nation's military aviation culture, to that of it's rapidly expanding civilian one?

I believe we will see wage pressure in India aswell as market pressure for expereinced Airbus training airmen- earning considerably more than J* pilots.

How many training credits does J* get? I am not privy to the commercial deal they received with Airbus. Perhaps, and knowing the fortitude of the pilot group in selling out future generations, they negotiated fewer than a foreign operator would. I believe it is robbing young pilots of wages even though, like you, I have never had to pay for expensive jet training.

Skills in debating? A bit cheeky from a fellow who uses three or four PPrune handles to push a bizarre professional masochism ie: the satisfaction in declining conditions of service for Australian pilots. This perversely, when you have enjoyed working for some very good carriers.

Your hypothetical? If I were in a sensitive position, in a land of few labour protections, but where unity is respected but militancy punished, comments on such scenarios more pertinent face to face.

Multiple handles and attempts to personalise issues not very sporting. :p

Capn Bloggs
22nd Jul 2005, 05:16
Bugger. The glyphosate didn't work. He's back.

Gardenbug, the way you continue to harp on, without providing one ounce of a suggestion about how to stop the rot and instead accuse us of being "professional undercutters", tantamount to being called a scab, makes me increasingly happy to undercut you when I get the chance, because you deserve it, pal.

Crank the mixture ratio up to 50% will you, honey?

Edited for spelling.

FatEric
22nd Jul 2005, 07:36
Gnads,

If you are not privy to the number of training credits obtained when Jetstar ordered the Airbus fleet then why would you make implications based on such information?

I am unsure which of my comments lead you to believe that I gain any sort of satisfaction from the decline in conditions of service in the Australian airline industry.

You accuse me and other ppruners on this and other occasions of using multiple user names. Such siege mentality will not help your argument at all.

Watchdog
22nd Jul 2005, 08:12
Gnads,

actually none of the Impulse Pilots were ever required to fork out for their jet endorsements - they had to provide a bank guarantee for 2 years return of service ie. a bond. The VB newies had to get their own rating - a trend which has now caught on downunder.

Hmmm...supply and demand again.

Kaptin M
23rd Jul 2005, 01:55
I wonder what the relationship is between the "easy money" (the lines of credit the banks so freely offer), and the willingness of pilots to pay for just about anything, is.

You two have been having a fun time during my 3 days away, Big Jan and Ronnie......sorry to disappoint you, B J, but I haven't had internet access during that period.