Dumb engineers?

[Alan Key]

There has been a lot of talk recently about the shortage of engineers, interestingly including an article in flight international last year predicting that engineers salaries will increase to that of the captains due to the shortage in the near future.
I'm quite sure that the CAA and JAA have spent a lot of time thinking about this.
Now, I may be parenoid but it appears simple to me that if you want more engineers then you just make it easier to become one.
I know there's been many discussions about who's license is better and so on, and I don't want to bring that up again, but I will bring up one point.
Under BCAR removing negative marking and oral exams have made the licenses easier to pass. Also allowing you to bank more and re-sit earlier make for more engineers.
Now look at the American engineers. I've worked with some good, and some poor engineers, (like anywhere) but when a training school can GUARANTEE an A&P license in a month or less than it dumbs down the whole industry. I don't know what the money in America is like now but a few years ago it was terrible. Not because the engineers are not good, but because the license is devalued.
It seems obvious that the reason the JAA was based on the FAA was for future integration.
Will this mean that our Licenses will be integrated, I think it does. JAA=FAA.

Easier license = more engineers = lower wages

Please tell me I'm wrong.
:( :( :(

[WenWe]

Love to be able to say that you're wrong - but I can't.
I'm not sure if I would have passed my 'X' if I'd had to sit an oral (I'm A&C), & someone I know who recently passed their 'C' would never have got through one.

[KwikPhix]

Alan Key,I presume that because you have made the comment that the exams are now easier to pass, that you must have taken some during the 'old' regime and also some during the new 'easier' regime to be able to make the comparison. I must say that when i took my first exam in 1995 and then my most recent one in 2001 it certainly didn't feel any easier. I still didn't know which Q's i was going to be asked and so had to study and revise for all of them. Yes they have done away with negative marking, but they've also put the pass mark up. I have quite a few friends of mine who IMHO are pretty swiched on guys,and who have managed to fail their exams recently (usually by 1 Q! ). Also admittedly they have done away with the oral but i don't think that that was always consistent, My Oral exam took 50 mins from walk in to walk out, in the first 15 the surveyer told me than i told him ! my pal went in 2 days later for his, and was Grilled for 2.5 hours. Another thing, are there any actual statistics showing that there are more maintenence errors being made now than in the old days?(I don't know I'm just asking) I would also be interested to know ,if taking an oral exam was optional, how many of us would tick the yes box ( just to check out our real depth of knowledge and for self esteem- knowing you got it thehard way) I'm damn sure i wouldn't. One final thought just because somebody gets a license that isn't the end of the road they still need to get the approval, AND what the CAA giveth so the CAA can taketh away ;)

[Blacksheep]

The old exams were a piece of p*ss - as long as you were a REAL engineer that is!

In the bad old days of BCAR A8-4 the toughest part was meeting the experience requirements and completing the Schedules of Inspection Work. Once you convinced the Authority that you had been trained and subsequently had acquired the necessary experience you could be admitted to the examinations. If you passed the exams then you were admitted to the oral exam. An absolute doddle wasn't it? Combine certified experience with academic knowledge and you get competent staff. Training costs money, maybe our industry is in the process of discovering the cost of ignorance?

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[trapper]

The oral exam was the one that you really had to study for and know what you're talking about, end of discussion really, sorry.

[charliecossie]

Consider this:-
The JAA give *no* examination exemptions to holders of an A&P. They do not recognise it.

[aeroguru]

Not exactly true charlie.Depends which NAA of JAA you are dealing with.Some are giving complete exemption for AandP and rubber stamping the JAR66 license.Their interpretation I suppose!And not for the extortionate fees that our NAA is charging. :rolleyes:

[charliecossie]

Then you should pass this on to the JAA. I've had direct contact with the JAA regarding this matter and the bloke was absolutely adamant - the A&P is worthless as far as they (JAA) are concerned.
Regarding fees, if you think the CAA are ripping us off you should see what the LBA (Germany) are charging.....

[aeroguru]

Well charlie I'd love to see what the LBA charges are, and I have tried to find out what variOUS NAA are charging,see the thread beaurocracy check; but only one guy replied, but even that reply was pretty much what I thought the score was elsewhere. :rolleyes: :confused:

[charliecossie]

The LBA want DM1200 just to process an application. Then there's the licence and type charges to add (but they're at work and I'm on leave so I won't guess).
If you want all the numbers remind in a couple of weeks and I'll post 'em.

[Noted]

aeroguru,

please check * beaurocracy check *, there have been 2 replies.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Noted ]

[rpm]

In response to you all. I took a two week course to prepare for the CAA A&C licence. I got full exemptions with my A&P. It was a piece of **** . I thought it was too easy. Not even a practical test.
It is unfortunate for you europeans that the FAA don't give out exemptions AND do not reconize the JAA licenses.
Maybe it is just "protectionism" from both sides of the atlantic ocean.

[KwikPhix]

I had an interview with my Quality manager the other day prior to him giving me my full A/F Approval, 2 hours..,2 FU%*ing hours ! like i said earlier getting the license is only half the battle.
PS, got the approval and the associated pay rise though :D s'pose i'll have to start working for a living now :(

[Leatherman]

Khickphix you asked if maintenance errors are more well documented these days well they are!
You only have to look at the AAIB website and recent reports.BMA engines, BA windshield,baAirtours borescope/FCU trim, Airbus spoilers,Virgin brake unit etc; etc; etc;
I think the training and mentality prior to around 1978 did prevent a lot of this type of thing.
Current beancounter pressures don't help but I think we were sheilded from this by our very correct and experienced supervisors.Where are they now eh? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :eek:

[DoctorA300]

Kwikphix, Leatherman
I don´t think we can compare maintenance errors from the past and today, the scene has changed too much. Think about this.

1- Traffic increase.
2- Amount of startup/Low cost carriers.
3- Reporting culture has changed.

1- With increased traffic you would see more incidents, the precentage might drop, but the events would increase.

2- With an increasing amount of carriers/startups, the individual organisations experience decrease.

3- The reporting/accountability culture has changed dramatically, we report with less descrimination today than 15 years ago. Also the apperant organsational status of the liseced engineer has decreased, which in turn means that when the occer coloured excrement hits the ventilation unit, we are more often hit.

Brgds
Doc