QF S/O salary??

[The Messiah]

Just spoke to a mate of mine at QF who told me he has been paid (gross not net friggin obviously for the people below who need to get a life) $149,825 for the financial year just ended as an S/O.

Pretty damn good I think.

Just wondering what is the record for most ever earned in a year by a QF S/O? Any ideas anyone?

Edited for the angry mob;

[Capt Stabbin]

"Cleared" 149K??? As in ~$149,000 in the hand? Not bloody likely, even on the year 12 rate. Before tax however, that figure is achievable by the senior S/Os.

[Offchocks]

The Messiah

Your mate is having a lend of you! ;)

[cobber74]

well you guys, what can i say, its true , my brother in Qantas as a 2nd officer cleared 160k . so he is right. go figure.

[mmmbop]

there is a simple case of terminology error slipping into this thread.

Quite simply, no SO will ´CLEAR´´ $160K in Qantas.

They could (top of the pile, LA Barons) GROSS 160K though.

Cheers.

[scrubed]

He cleared $160 000 in one year????? Net??

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAA..........!!!!!

Yeah right! So this SECOND OFFICER was paid a gross salary of about $230 000 or so, hey??

That must mean a -400 capt would be grossing about - ohhhh.... - $500 000 or so? Maybe more???

Ya dreaming mate. Enjoy it while it lasts :ok: , you will eventually have to wake up and pull ya head out ya arse.


I seem to recall trying to explain to some pilots, recently, the difference between gross and net. Why is it so many pilots are so badly educated? I always thought you had to be reasonably smart to drive the big stuff???

[Keg]

They'd be chasing some extra hours in there as well. Pretty hard to get to $160K on straight divisor even if you're doing non stop LAX-MEL on year 12 pay!

In fact, a year 12 S/O on the 744 needs to be doing 40 hours of O/T per bid period to get $146K. Of course, I'd say the number of $160K probably has about 15-20K of allowances built into it as well! :rolleyes:

[scrubed]

Maybe this SO was one of these former hosties who actually got off their @rse and got a licence instead of moaning to each other and anyone else who'll listen about pilots all day long......

That way he/she'd already be trained up on how to shut down the metabolism and survive a three-day layover on a single packet of noodles.

Just think how much extra dough you'd rake in if you never bought any food or booze!!! :rolleyes:



Or maybe he operates a Jim's Mowing lawn-mowing franchise whenever he's not at work sleeping in the warren.

Maybe it's The Lawnmower Man!!! I heard he joined Qwantas.... is it true???

[schnauzer]

Honestly, this forum is full or derisive nutcases.

TM stated "cleared" instead of "grossed". So what? I guess you knockers have never made a typo, or a small error in grammar?

The average QF SO on the 400 earns closer to Keg's figures, however I've heard of the really senior guys getting up to $180K gross. Plenty of overtime in that though.

[frangatang]

Why the f### did l become a captain if all this is true.Should remain a SO and do nothing except interperet the atis at all those johny foreigner destinations.

[56P]

You guys have blown me away! A YEAR 12 S/O ???? I was totally unaware that any such unfortunate animal existed.

[Ronnie Honker]

I was totally unaware that any such unfortunate animal existed.

We like to think of QF as a museum, which is why we also have 20 and 30 year F/A's.

[Mr.Buzzy]

And why would you get off the graviest gravy train of all?

bbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzz

[tow-truck]

PAid all that money and they still hunt and beg for food around the galleys,like "mangy bangkok dogs".... what in the f*ck do the pilots to with their money......ahhh child support, ex r00t.

[Kaptin M]

what in the f*ck do the pilots to with their money Spend it on subsidising the cabin crew when the bill arrives!

[56P]

And why would you get off the graviest gravy train of all?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Buzzy,

Your above comment is exactly correct - for a professional bludger (pays better than the dole) BUT certainly NOT for a professional pilot.

If this is the type of applicant being attracted to QF, then they deserve each other.

[frangatang]

Your SO pay is comparable with a one year platelayer in BA!

[jettlager]

Kaptin M,

"Spend it on subsidising the cabin crew when the bill arrives!"

Why should the CC have to pay for the ridiculous amount of piss you guys have to drink in an effort to appear like you have some kind of personality?:ok:

[Keg]

Geez, $180K as a S/O? Not only is there extra o/t in there but an extra LA trip every bid period as well! :rolleyes:

I'm not going to get even close to that as a year 11 767 F/O. Even if I HAD been flying for the last few months instead of being stuck at home not being able to see properly I still don't reckon I would have gotten close to $160K!

There are some serious issues with our pay system!

[The Messiah]

Yeah I don't see any incentive to take promotion if you can get that sort of cash as an S/O.

[ginjockey]

Keg,

Sorry to hear about your vision problems and I hope you are OK but I have to ask;

What does the latin title under your pprune username mean.....??

[Howard Hughes]

Jepps filed..........................check
Galley Hags all seated.......check
ATIS received.....................check
Checklist read....................check

No what do I have to do?

Oh yes read the paper and drink coffee.

And for this I get a $160,000 a year........Oh Pleeeeeeease give me a job. I would be happy to be a 20 year S/O if thats what it takes.;)

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

And Keg, indeed it is time to drink!!

[Calligula]

Kegs Latin title means "I wish I had been in the RAAF instead of being a try-hard ATC officer"

[scrubed]

11 years and still not a capt. Wow.

Hey don't begrudge these young bucks their $160K in the hand. If someone can convince their boss to pay $240K or whatever, gross, then why shouldn't they take it? Mad if ya don't.

But on the assumption it is actually $160K gross, so what, it's still pretty good coin for sitting on your @rse doing nothing for half the flight and sleeping in the cot the rest of the time.

The worst part is having to listen to the old fart ex-cadet captain talking ****e. On the trips where you fly with a real pilot as captain, life is good and the dough is good.

Until you get to fatty's (the cheapest place the PlateClearers are happy to "feast") and have to listen to the inevitable whinging about "But I only ate TWO prawns, I'm not paying for that..."

Honestly, why we put so much effort into getting The Help to come out on the town is beyond me sometimes.... :rolleyes: At times the whining is so bad it's like you're back on the jet.

It'd be different if they were all young glammas and there was a point to it all!!

Maybe it's best that they do slam/click the door and live off a single packet of Maggi noodles for 72 hours. At least there's no crying and whinging that way. But the next time I see one of them shame-facedly carpet-grazing on the trays in the hallway when I stagger in, I'm writing them up. It's un-becoming.

I especially like the comment about professional pilots not being in it for the money... Thanks 56P!!! Of course that's the type being attracted, they're ALL attracted... for the dough!! What did you think??? That someone would actually like to sit back there watching his hand-flying skills vanish before his eyes and listening to Captain Grump E. Caydet-Knobster tearing strips off Hostie Drag N. Boiler for it's crap attitude???

No.

That's why the big dough. Hopefully, this allows Qwantas to then choose the best (snicker) pilots of the lot and hire them. No one actually enjoys working as a Qwantas pilot (except the cadet captains who live in their own fantasyland where everything is blissful and everyone loves them and listens to their tales of datalink heroics) and why would they?

[Capt Fathom]

$160K!
No wonder they want to send 'em all to Singapore!

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Oh I love these sorts of threads.

Let's start with a few facts.

No line Qantas pilot gets paid a salary. They get paid at an hourly rate like any other award worker. So when you hear that a SO grossed 160K ;then to do that he must have flown X amount of hours at that hourly rate plus Y amount of over-time at that hourly rate. The SO Hourly rate is based on appropriately negotiated relativities to other ranks and aircraft types

Pilot pay has already been featured heavily on other threads here, with the general thrust that someone who invests as heavily as pilots do in their own careers, should be remunerated properly for it. So when you say that on one hand then criticise what SO's are paid with the other hand, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Qantas SO's get paid less than the FO's and extra Captains are paid in a lot of other companies for doing the same job. Qantas SAVES a lot by employing SO's at their current rate.

Will the CC crew who insist on sticking their oar in on this matter please desist. It has nothing to do with you and you leave yourself open to comparisons that are largely odious and meaningless. The experience and qualifications needed to hold either job are totally different. We happen to inhabit the same workspace, with the shared goal of a safe and efficient operation.... but the jobs are TOTALLY different.

[scrubed]

Hi The_Cutest_of_Bog,who invests as heavily as pilots do in their own careers, should be remunerated properly for itI always thought it was more to do with the responsibility for other peoples' hides... the punters and the plate-collectors want someone who can do the job not some rock-ape who hung on nice and tight when they shook the tree.SO Hourly rate is based on appropriately negotiated relativities to other ranks Including the Chief Ham-Sambo Maker.......??? :rolleyes:Will the CC crew who insist on sticking their oar in on this matter please desist.Well said.

[Keg]

Kegs Latin title means "I wish I had been in the RAAF instead of being a try-hard ATC officer"

Geez Calligula, you'e a little behind the times. The organisation hasn't been known as the ATC since about the early'80s when it changed to the AIRTC. It formally changed it's name to the Australian Air Force Cadets in 2001. So if you're going to throw stones, that would be a 'try-hard AAFC officer'.

Secondly, I do wish I'd been able to get into the RAAF. Alas I didn't and thus my seniorority number in QF is 1000 numbers higher than it would have been had I done so. Real shame that one! However, it's a bit rude to throw stones at 'try-hard ATC (sic) officers' everywhere because I didn't get into the RAAF and assume that because I didn't, that automatically makes AAFC officers 'try hards'. Even had I gotten into the RAAF, I'd still be wearing my AAFC rank at times as well. (PS: I'll tell the IR manager for ABC Australia, a News Ltd exec, the chief of the Victorian Ambulance, the managing director of a North QLD aviation company, a bunch of RAAF senior officers (WGCDR and SQNLDRs) that you think they're 'try hards' for wearing the white braid! :rolleyes: )

Thirdly, shame that someone would throw stones at an organisation who's aim is to promote the development of Australia's youth in a military orientated and aviation focused way. Given the discussions that occur from time to time here on PPRUNE about the 'youth of today', I would have hoped that those of us who strive to develop that youth and turn them into professional and contributing members of society (and the ADF) would be supported rather than have an anonymous pot shot thrown at us.

Finally, I'm proud of my service in the AAFC. It costs me in terms of both precious time at home with my family and dollars but I do it because I get a kick out of turning out cadets that go on to greater things. I've got former cadets who are Hornet drivers, doctors, lawyers, soldiers, airmen- one was airman of the year this year in the RAAF- sailors, human rights workers, etc, etc. Most importantly though, I've developed leaders who have gone on to develop other leaders in their chosen fields. It's a legacy and contribution to society that I'm emminently comfortable with.

So take your best shot at me if you reckon you've got me pegged but don't dare think that you're even close to having what it takes to hang crap on the Australian Air Force Cadets.

[Offchocks]

Well said Keg!

For those of you who may not know him, he's a great bloke to have as part of the crew and a thoroughly nice person as well!

Back on the subject, Borg's post sums up how the pay system works. Yes 744 SOs are well payed but to gross the figures quoted, you would have to be in the top few senior SOs and then work the system pretty hard.

BTW about 85% of 744 SOs have been in QF for 5yrs or less. The 12 year+ SOs (a small minority) are mostly those who have not managed to pass the FO promotion or are "life stylers". :hmm:

[BUSDRIVER200]

SCRUBED.....how do you spell Qantas mate?? :mad: idiot

[Calligula]

Not knocking the ATC at all. It is a fine organisation

But Keg, recognise this.

You are not a graduate of RAAFCol or ADFA.

You have not served o/s on operations.

You have not commanded airman / troops or sailors at any level either

Yet you carry on name dropping and talking about 'Angus Houstons leadership' as if being an AIRTC officer qualifies you to do so.

I know this because I had the misfortune to be sitting in your CRM class last week, watching you carrying on like a pork chop.

Your enthusiasm and capacity to volunteer your time is commendable - just know your place.

BTW the correct spelling is 'seniority'. There is no second 'o' in the word.

I think thats how Kaptin M identified your other PPRune persona 'Sydneyman' as well.

[cobber74]

WELL ALL YOU GUYS WHO THINK THEY ARE IN QANTAS OR KNOW THE PAY FIGURES , REALLY DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT, AND PROB ARENT GETTING PAID WELL. ITS OK TO BE JEALOUS. ITS PRETTY FUNNY HEY. MAYBE U SHOULD TRY ANOTHER AIRLINE.

scrubbed , you must be a GA pilot hey. well hmmm u prob wont make it will. most of you s wont ..... oh well

[Keg]

OK Callgula, I'll stick my hand up. I have not graduated RAAFCOL or ADFA and nor have I served o/s on operations- and nor have I ever alluded to that. I have not 'commanded' airmen/troops/sailors in the formal sense. I have however had the pleasure of working for ADF members at various times and having had them work for me on a bunch of occasions too. That includes senior officers and airmen alike. I'm proud to call a lot of these officers, Senior NCOs and other ranks my friends.

I've observed ACM Houston's leadership from a AAFC perspective since he took up that role. I've seen first hand the way he has supported the AAFC; I've read about the initiatives that he's put forward in Air Force (and by default the AAFC); and I've had staff attend some of the leadership exchanges that have been instigated during his time as the CAF. I've seen him handle senate committee's on issues to do with the AAFC and wear the rap for something that he shouldn't have had to. So, do I 'name drop'? According to you, yes. From my perspective, I'm an admirer of the CDFs work and a supporter of what he achieved in the RAAF (although if I were a serving RAAF member then perhaps I would know even more and be a more strident supporter) and hope he goes on to bigger and better things for both the ADF and the ADFC as CDF. It isn't about whether or not I'm 'qualified' to do so in the minds of you or anyone else, I passed on an opinion based on what I know of the man, his actions and his results. I passed an opinion on the former CDF as well. But I do see where you are coming from. Another person who believes that 'people' should 'know their place'. Be seen and not heard is another version, not have an opinion is another.

Of course though, your entire stance is obvious from your statement about knowing my place. How could an AAFC officer possibly be able to comment on other matters- especially those of leadership and management. You may undervalue my experiences but lots of other people don't. Believe me, I'm all too well aware of what some think of my various ventures in this world.

Didn't like CRM? Did you happen to write anything on the feedback form or do you just snipe anonymously from the sidelines? I don't recall any comments about 'pork chop' on the forms at all. Perhaps you should have put that in. More than happy if you want to submit one now too. Let me know your mailbox number at work and I'll be sure to drop one in for you to fill out.

As for other PPRUNE handles, I have no need and I'm coward. If I've got something to say, I'll say it as 'Keg'. Funnily enough, despite being so well known, I've not yet had anyone in QF have the guts to say something adverse about my posts to my face. Of course, there are a bunch that talk behind my back and take anonymous pot shots on PPRUNE but I'm used to that cowardice after a decade in QF and six years on PPRUNE. Funnily enough that cowardice is displayed equally by former military 'warriors' who have graduated RAAFCol and ADFA. Perhaps they should've concentrated more on the values of the ADF when they were in!

Offchocks, thanks for the kind words. There is just no pleasing those like calligula. They continually look for ways of dragging others down. Sad to take a 'cup is half full' look all the time.

PS: Calligula, my humble apologies for my mis-spelling of 'seniority'. See what happens when you don't get the opportunity to graduate RAAFCol or ADFA! :yuk:

PPS: I guess that beer in the O's mess is out of the question- especially considering that you obviously aren't PAF anymore. Shame, it would've been nice to be able to do more than just scoff my meal down and get back to instructing staff. I bet you didn't even know I was 'Keg' until I mentioned my eyes! :p

[Chicken or Fish?]

To balance this up a little......

For those sitting on the sidelines saying "Wow, $160 000 to do nothing but read the paper and drink coffee" remember not all S/O's are on the B744.

S/O's on the B747 Classic and B767 are on barely half this rate yet work a hell of a lot harder (when QF actually wants them to go flying this is).

Ah.. the equality :rolleyes:

[Australia2]

Cobber 74,

It may not have "entered your little world" back there but there are people out there who do know the particulars of QF employment, do not rely on rumour and are yet not employed by QF.

This is because we left (shock horror) to, persue better opportunities available elsewhere. I imagine this is already a lot to consider in 1 night for you so I will leave it there.

Cheers (You W@nk*r)

Oz2

[blueloo]

Calligula, you appear to have small mans penis syndrome. :}

[Howard Hughes]

OK whip em out boys, lets compare!!

Just remember now it is very cold down here.....;)

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

[Capt Stabbin]

And Calligula, obviously you're one of those ex-mil types with a very attractive little moustache who craps on ad-bloody-nauseum at the bar about the good old days in Squadron-number-whogivesa****, and bores everyone else to tears with stories about what a ****hot aviator you were :yuk: Looking forward to your CRM classes, Ace.

[cobber74]

aussie2 , Wan&ER ??? hmmm it seems you are. rumor? my brother s there in qantas and i know what he gets .
so, maybe u shouldnt write until u get your facts right hey. gee there are some sad ppl around hey.

[Metro Boy]

So how much does a Qantas 737 FO gross with and without allowances?

[mustafagander]

S/Os making $160K!!!

I really want to find out what s/he bids for! I want some too.

Even with a heap of DTA and allowances, $160K is a bit far fetched IMHO.

[Bolty McBolt]

Hey all

How do you know if an airline pilot used to fly jets in the military???


HE WILL F@@KING TELL YOU.....

Just a little levity

[Gnadenburg]

Calligula

"Know your place". I see QF's infamous CRM culture alive and well.

You come accross as a bit of a coward in your callous attack on Keg FWIW.


S/O Pay

I have professional respect for the pay & conditons of QF pilots. From the stories I've heard from QF pilots who have left, you couldn't pay me that much to sit behind some of those clowns, even if I was just folding maps.

:)

[scrubed]

So how much does a Qwantas 330 FO gross with allowances but without overtime?









Bolty, and why not? They should be given a little extra respect. They are the top of the dung heap as far as pilots go.

But then there're the SR71 pilots. Top of the spy-plane dung heap.

Then there're the guys who fly the (remaining) space shuttles, now there's a hard job to get. They're not exactly expanding the fleet.


I guess the REAL top of the dung heap would be the lucky turd who's test flying the crashed saucer they've got hidden away in Hangar 18 or Area 69 or wherever.

Wonder what he gets paid.......

[The Riddler]

Australia2 & Gnadenburg,

Couldn't agree more. You guys are dead on with your posts and certainly not alone in your beliefs.

Many guys are considering "Employment Plan 2" with some F/O's & S/O's having already departed from QF.

Even some Capts are talking of seeking out contract opportunities once the kids are out of home.

You have to laugh at the attitudes of a select group of QF longtermers. They are simply astonished that some pilots are even considering leaving QF. Maybe they & AIPA should open their eyes (& ears) to what many FO's & SO's feel about their future prospects in the company.

Lots of unhappiness in the Rat at the moment.

[Zapatas Blood]

Cutest Of Borg

“So when you hear that a SO grossed 160K ;then to do that he must have flown X amount of hours at that hourly rate plus Y amount of over-time at that hourly rate. The SO Hourly rate is based on appropriately negotiated relativities to other ranks and aircraft types”

A good friend of mine is a turbo prop captain for a regional airline; he has been in the industry for 12 years. He has more experience than most, if not all, QF second officers and has paid just as much for his flying training as any QF SO.

He hand flys 1000 hours per year, non precision approaches are the norm in crappy weather, sometimes 4-5 per day.

He would have to fly almost 3000 hours per year to net the same salary as a QF SO, who does not even fly the aircraft.

How do you reconcile that?

And another question, do Aus Airlines use Second Officers. Does the Jetstar award cater for Second Officers.

[Offchocks]

Zapatas Blood

Both Aus Airlines and Jet* do not do the sector lengths where flight time limitations require a SO.
Note that many international airlines fly "heavy" crews consisting of more than one Captain or FO, only a few have SOs.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Zap, since when are pilots paid on relative workload? If that was the case, as noted elsewhere, the single engine, single pilot, unpressurised, IFR charter pilots would be king of the roost!

You think movie stars have a heavy workload for what they earn? No, they are being paid for the economic benefit they bring to their employers.

Same with pilots. The old weight speed formula has gone the way of the dodo, so efficiency's are the yardstick. You start with the Captain of the biggest, shiniest jet; the one with the most stellar RPK's, and work your way down the food chain using pay relativities.

Cabin crew rates don't come into the equation. That is why you get many CC getting paid more than regional pilots and in some cases, more than SO's in Qantas. Good luck to them, but that's between them and the company.

I fail to see the point of this whole thread except to pander to some who believe that SO pay should come down. When I left my last job to join Qantas, I took a pay cut to be a SO. Many people do. It gets better over time though.

Why do people constantly seek to drag down the last aviation job in Australia that pays anything like the going rate overseas?... Talk about believing the cr@p dished up to you by vested interests..

[Ronnie Honker]

A good friend of mine is a turbo prop captain for a regional airline; he has been in the industry for 12 years. He has more experience than most, if not all, QF second officers and has paid just as much for his flying training as any QF SO.

He would have to fly almost 3000 hours per year to net the same salary as a QF SO, who does not even fly the aircraft.

How do you reconcile that? No-one has to "reconcile" (justify) anything.
The higher salaries of pilots flying larger aircraft are made possible because of the higher payloads carried.
S/O's are a money saver for the companys that use them!

[320321]

Borg said “Qantas SO's get paid less than the FO's and extra Captains are paid in a lot of other companies for doing the same job. Qantas SAVES a lot by employing SO's at their current rate.”

Take a look at the Qantas network and you will find that the majority of FO’s flying for airlines competing with QF are paid considerable less than QF SO’s and in some cases the commanders are paid less than the QF SO’s. Many of these carriers operate 2 crew on sectors where QF would carry 3 crew.

Borg also said “The old weight speed formula has gone the way of the dodo, so efficiency's are the yardstick”

This is true, most carriers don’t pay crew according to aircraft size or RPK’s, no matter how stellar they may be.

“Why do people constantly seek to drag down the last aviation job in Australia that pays anything like the going rate overseas”

Borg, you should get out into the big wide world of aviation and realize that someone getting paid 160000 AUD (or anything even close) for sleeping in the jumpseat of a 2 crew automated jet is not getting the “going rate”.

Honker said “No-one has to "reconcile" (justify) anything”

. . . . . . . NJS, Jetstar, Australian Airlines, Jet connect.

[EPIRB]

I did 850 stick hours last financial year and got nowhere near $160,000. And the same goes for others that I have spoken to.

[Skypatrol]

Yes, let's not throw stones at those who are paid well in our industry when so much of our industry is being dragged down with conditions/pay and now paying for endorsements. In many ways QF conditions should be aspired to, not knocked down. We all work very hard and sacrifice a lot to put up the $$ to set out on a career, then if we're lucky get a job that pays near the dole to slug your guts out in GA for years working for peanuts so secreatries can get paid more than a GA pilot. Now of course when the dream of an airline job is realised, Virgin come in and cut conditions, make you pay for endorsement with J*, eastern following suit. How many GA pilots have that cash lying around? None! I admire my mates in GA for pulling their applications out from these airlines in protest. It's a disgrace! Anyone in airline management heard of a bond???? Surely a 5 year bond would be a much better system. As useless as AIPA seem, that is one issue I'm sure they and all QF pilots wouldn't let happen in QF.

Anyway, as a 1st year 767 S/O (rotating) I grossed (incl allowances) $90K in my 1st year whilst mates on the 400 earned $20K more. I payed more in tax that year than I earned in the previous year in GA! Now as a F/O $135K which is still down on 400 S/O's, however overtime kicks in for them. Yes it is unfair that S/O's are paid more then F/O's but it's a reasonably complicated system and I'd rather be flying, than in the back seat "waiting for the dust to settle" ...... However, a 400 S/O with same seniority earns $10K more than me is ridiculous, but I don't advocate giving him a paycut!!!

[Ronnie Honker]

Hear hear Skypatrol.
When one group - or even one individual - start trying to drag others' conditions DOWN, instead of trying to RAISE their own, you are encouraging employers to do the same.
The boyish mentality of "All I wanna do is fly - and if it's bigger, it's better." is dragging the standard down, not just for pilots, but for employers as well, because anyone with half a brain realises that spending over $100k of your own (or borrowed) money to get a basic licence, subject to annual medicals, is NOT a good investment anymore.

And why even suggest a bond, Skypatrol?
Staff training is an allowable tax deduction for companies - chances are it WON'T be for you.

What's the next offer to employers going to be? I'll pay for any fuel used over and above the planned burn........I'll pay for any extra flight time I incur, above the scheduled times?
You require me to wear a uniform - but I'll pay for it? Ooops, Tiger Airways pilots are already doing that!

There IS nothing "fair" in aviation, and you'll find that the longer you're in the game, stuff that seems financially astute to you apparently does NOT work for airline companies, whilst other things that seem penny-pinching to YOU assume major importance to airline beanies and management.
Look at JetStar Asia, and the number of pilots here who predicted it would be a failure, but how astute financial accounting and management skills proved otherwise :8 :}

[Skypatrol]

Ronnie,
I only suggested a bond as a alternative to upfront cash given that airlines don't want to spend $$ training new hire pilots to see them head to a bigger airline 6 months down the track, which is fair enough as they're getting a very poor return on their investment. Easterns being the obvious example here. QF, EK and many other airlines have this in place, so if Ronnie leaves after 1 year of a 3 year bond, he/she then pays the remaining 2 years of that bond.

[DutchRoll]

Not sure what this thread is coming to, but to whichever QF S/O rakes in $160K per year, could you please have them PM me and explain how the hell they do it? I get pretty good trips and am a reasonable way up the seniority list, and my last years gross doesn't even approximate that.

As for those comparing incomes and whingeing about what an S/O gets:

1) I see you are joining the long and distinguished queue of people who by inference would be quite happy to attack pilot earnings and drag them down further.

2) There have been a few too many comparisons on this thread with apples and oranges. Did it ever cross your mind that some airlines are grossly UNDERPAYING their pilots, rather than S/Os being overpaid?

3) There are many variables which come into S/O pay by the nature of the operation.

Come off it guys. If you're not happy about what you're earning, how about looking at a job change?

[donpizmeov]

I wonder how many other professions attack the higher earnings of their peers like pilots do.
I hope these guys, and all the other drivers of aeroplanes out there get huge pay rises...then perhaps market forces might let some of it filter down to me.

Don

[Pete Conrad]

Don,

The way the industry is heading, pilots will end up a scarce commodity, you may get your wish.

[MrWooby]

Ronnie
A good friend of mine is a turbo prop captain for a regional airline; he has been in the industry for 12 years. He has more experience than most, if not all, QF second officers and has paid just as much for his flying training as any QF SO

There are quite a few SO's on the 400 with more experience than your friend. In fact quite a few have more experience than the FO's. And maybe even of a few of the more junior captains.

Dutchroll, haven't seen my group certificate yet but am on track to gross 150k. Not many LAX's in that, mainly european trips and quite a few double shuttles. I find the extra allowances for the shuttles are more tax effective than doing the high overtime flights.

[cobber74]

gee i dont know what you guys arent doing to be pulling in 160k.... maybe you should be speaking to the people in qantas. i dont understand..hmm oh well.

[Ronnie Honker]

I doubt that there would be very few Q S/O's who would dispute who has the higher workload, and the crappier lifestyle, when comparing single pilot IFR - and even the turbo prop Captain mate of Zapata's. Many of them have the hours, and the badges to show THEY'VE been there, done that.
I also doubt that there would be very, very few airline pilots who would agree that G.A. pilots are grossly underpaid, for the many and various reasons known to pilots who have come up through the G.A. ranks.

But the unfortunate reality of the situation is that G.A. doesn't have aircraft that can carry the payloads (bums-on-seats, or freight) that ENABLE the owners to reward their staff - not only pilots - to the same extent that the higher capacity airlines are able to.
Perhaps, there needs to be more attention given to "lifestyle" conditions of G.A. pilots - days off, holidays, loadings for working on week-ends, public hols, back of the clock - that airline pilots DON'T get, to offset the financial differences.

Dixon pulls $6 million+ p.a. There wouldn't be any individual in G.A. who comes close to scalping that - but I'll bet they put in a lot more time then Dicko does.
And our latest "commander in chief" will reap $100k just for being who he is.
A goose and a golden egg seem to have particular relevance to an Australian kangaroo at this point in time!

[ruprecht]

Dutchroll, haven't seen my group certificate yet but am on track to gross 150k.
I'm guessing you're not on the classic or the 767......;)

ruprecht

[Tankengine]

Metroboy,
737 F/O, max 12th year pay, DTA included, not chasing hours :
$134k
:zzz:

[Capt Fathom]

Seems like a good system!
The lifestylers can sit in the back and count their money to retirement. (Just don't stuff up..or let someone else stuff up on your shift)
This leaves the FO positions open for those who like money, but would prefer to fly instead.
Something for everyone.
:ok:

[Chris Higgins]

I still reckon you're all underpaid! We've got guys who fly as check airman on Cessnas with 12 years that make more than that.

[Taildragger67]

Keg,

Just in case any of your current crop of ants don't say it,

THANK YOU for giving up your time to be an AAFC/AIRTC officer.

I'm proud I was an AIRTC CUO some years ago; our flight commander was a Classic captain and his off-sider was a F/E; we all thought they were gods. My old man did time as an AIRTC staff officer after his RAAF days so I grew up knowing how much time these people give up.

Some of my flight-mates went into aviation, flying Hornets, Hercs and various commercial types. Others have followed other paths.

For several reasons, I didn't follow 'The Path' and it's my only big regret. I hope you manage to inspire the youngsters in your care. Even if they don't go into aviation, they will look back on their camps with good memories and have skills they will have developed in the AAFC.

Good on you, mate, and I hope the eye gets better.

(Gets off soapbox, packs up bat and ball, goes home... )

Cheers
TD67

ps re the original question, Keg's signature may be roughly translated as 'it's beer o'clock'.

[stiffwing]

Hey , Zapatas
Basically these guys and girls get paid these amounts because of the RESPONSIBILITY that they carry, mate. they are third in command (not fourth, as some of the "flight directors" would like to think) of an aircraft carrying 400 - odd people for over 12 hours half way around the world, unlike your captain pal who does a 40 minute sector at 4 o'clock in the afternoon followed by a GPS approach to a generally sea level airport speaking to an ATC that speaks english as his first language.. Many times a QF aircraft has been saved - YES - saved from disaster from one of these "overpaid"? s/o's reminding a tired, old captain (or F/O ) that he's about to F--K up. But if you were "in the know" you'd know that already wouldn't you ??? By the way, I am not a QF s/o but admire them greatly.
please don't drag them or their conditions down..perhaps we should all be earning $160 K a year?

[Next Generation]

Being paid $ 160,000 is plausible, but EARNING $ 160,000, I think not.

[capt.cynical]

BULL's eye
Thanks N.G.
:ok:

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

How many independent audits did you read to make that point there NG?:E

[cobber74]

yes u bet ya 160k after tax. god , whats so hard to understand about that?

[Zapatas Blood]

Stiffwing,

“Basically these guys and girls get paid these amounts because of the RESPONSIBILITY that they carry, mate. they are third in command”

Lets not delude ourselves. These people get paid these salaries because of the industrial baggage that has accumulated over the past 50 years at incumbent carriers such as Qantas.

Do you really think it makes economic sense to shovel 160000 grand at someone to sit and watch the skipper in case he stuffs up?

Based on levels of responsibility, don’t you think an A320 captain at Jetstar should therefore be paid more than the SO counting waves from the jump seat.

“unlike your captain pal who does a 40 minute sector at 4 o'clock in the afternoon followed by a GPS approach to a generally sea level airport speaking to an ATC that speaks english as his first language”

Maybe next time I operate into Lombok or Manado I should request an SO to keep an eye on things. But hey, its no where near as tricky as LAX is it.

[Transition Layer]

Zapatas Blood,

Based on levels of responsibility, don’t you think an A320 captain at Jetstar should therefore be paid more than the SO counting waves from the jump seat.

Absolutely! But it's not a matter of paying the SO less, but rather the Jetstar captain should be paid more. They were the ones who accepted those crappy conditions, and the rot started way back in the Impulse days when they were paid a pittance to fly a B1900.

Just because the Jetstar pilot group accepted their sub-standard wages, doesn't mean it's OK to hang sh1t on those who value their skills a little more highly.

TL

[longjohn]

So now after they have enviegled(spelling?) their way into their current position, Jetstar pilots are worth more than Qantas pilots?

This is, of course after they have passed the same Interview, check, training and experience requirements?

I do not agree with the QF policy of using the S/O position as a training role for cadets, I am sure most pax would be horrified at the thought of a 19year old with 200 hours playing co-pilot to the F/O over Afghanistan.

However, most S/O's actually have some experience prior to joining Qantas. This includes Military, Other Airlines, regional carriers and GA. I am sure they would not choose to go into the back seat by preference but that is the path.

Nevertheless, Airline pilots pay is based on 3 criteria:

1. The Capacity of the airline to pay
2. The Responsibility encumbant with the position
3. The value placed on that position by the airline and its pilot group.

Quite simply, using these criteria the Qantas group content in paying s/o's the current rate.

Finally, in terms of responsibility. Apart from T/O and LDG, an s/o is in the seat for the rest of the flight. This includes flight over some of the most inhospitable terrain in the world, with foreign ATC, safety heights of over FL180 for extended periodsetc etc., most often at times when most domestic pilots are tucked up nicely in bed.

If taken seriously, the role carries enourmous responsibilty.

[LetsGoRated]

Tranistion Layer

Just because the Jetstar pilot group accepted their sub-standard wages, doesn't mean it's OK to hang sh1t on those who value their skills a little more highly.

Spot on. Last thing this Oz aviation needs is an erosion in Mainline salary. Whist it remains high we all have a benchmark, something to aim for. Hell, pay the S/O's 200K a year, why on earth would any self respecting pilot want to see another wages come down? We're all highly skilled pro's and it needs to be reflected in our salaries......lets concentrate on directing the conditions upwards shall we:ok:

[OhForSure]

longjohn : Well said that man! :ok:

[Normasars]

Gee I wonder why the industry (in this country) is in sh!ters ditch!
Listen to you lot: ##ckin idiots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

You're a chip off The Enema Bandit's block old son!

[7gcbc]

Is it not a TEAM crew affair ?, is it not that we (and others) have been here a thousand times before and having 3-4 heads up front decreases significantly the overall fatigue and by implication teh Risk ?, irrespective of who does what and who is at the sharp end, a TEAM always works better than just one or two.

If S/O's have a place on long haul , then there is a reason for it, what they earn, or more correctly gross, is neither here or there to me personally, I just want them to do a good job, along with the FO and Capt, and it seems so far, it appears to be working fine.

This talk about "paid too much" is not coming from the S/O's, nor is it coming from the rest of the crews, thats for sure.

Agreed Well said Longjohn.

PS: I'd still flog around Euroland in a 37 for peanuts to get Jet time if I could, but thats another story.

[brentmarcus]

A 400 Sim Instructors I think with a bit of responsibility only gets $95,000.

[cobber74]

only 95 grand? nah nah nah, thats not right. its much more than that.. 120 k . where are u getting your figures from..?

[SHRAGS]

The average QF S/O salary is $110,000 per year not including allowances which most would drink away anyway.

A big part of this pay packet is overtime which is a function of the 14 hour plus duties (overtime kicks in over 12).

These are the facts...........$160K is absolute rubbish..!!!

Is it too much?.............Maybe it is compared to many of us out there but I think we should be talking about getting our pay UP rather than talk down another group.

This sort of school ground bickering plays right into the hands of employers trying to drag us down.

THEY ARE LAUGHING THEIR ASSES OFF WHEN THEY READ THIS STUFF.

[cobber74]

we are not laughing... 160k is spot on...been there, done that...whats so hard to understand bout qf pay scales..gee wiz.

[Hans Go Around]

Does anyone know:

- What is the starting salary for a Year 1 S/O with QF and how much would an average years allowances be?

- What could you progress to as a senior training captain on a wide body jet?

Thanks

[Keg]

Hans, the answer to your first question is buried somewhere in this thread.

The answer to your second question is about 15-20 years after you join QF and so the number at the moment is irrelevant. Besides that, it'll vary significantly from 767 to A330 to 777 (still wishing! ;) ) through to the 744 and A380!

[Transition Layer]

Tinpis2,

Is cobber really back? Or is it just an old post from 18 July 2005?

I'm a bit confused.... :confused:

TL

[99Luftballons]

How accurate are these numbers then for QF?

http://www.ppjn.org/

[regitaekilthgiwt]

Only just happened to read through the last few posts (the end of page 4, start of 5) and it is good to see some common sense coming through. At the end of the day we need to all get together and raise our wages up not get stroppy and try and drag others down.