Judas Balpa CC at EZY!

[GoodShipLollipop]

It is not often that I am speechless, but I have just come off the 'phone from talking to a very old friend at New Road who confirmed the rumor which I heard earlier this week and I am completely astonished and angry and, and........... GRRRR!

The rumor doing the rounds is that a member of the EZY Balpa CC was recently interviewed for a Pilot Manager's job at the company. Not only that, his interview was conducted "in secret" so that nobody else got to know about it! WELL! How do you like that?! Apparantly New Road have known all about this for some weeks and have done nothing even though this turncoat is privvy to plenty of sensitive Balpa information.

I for one will not stand for it and will now be resigning from Balpa - just who do they think they are?! While those of us poor shmucks slog our guts out on the 5/2/5/4 lousy deal which THEY signed us up to, they busy themselves by trying to join "the management"! Is it any wonder we were sold down the river? I think not!

I have never been so infuriated in my life, nor so betrayed, nor so shat upon!! I thought I had been dicked around by experts enough in a former life, but this?! I cannot find enough words without swearing to describe my feelings on this. Talk about loyalty - BASTARDS!!

[The Greaser]

Nothing unusual about CC members going into management I wouldn't have thought. Dare I say it they may actually have more sympathy than the current cretinous management.

[mustafagander]

For Qantas this is SOP

[Lou Scannon]

Nothing at all strange that they should offer a management job to one of the CC. It might even improve things.

Another advantage is that it will create a vacancy on the CC that you will be able to apply for as you obviously know what needs to be changed around the company.

All the best with your election!:ok:

[stationcalling]

Are we talking about the recent Liverpool Base Captain`s vacancy, or are we talking about past PC members who have been made trainers. Maybe we`re talking about the alledged offer of share options to those who were not entitled. Sadly, these " back-handers" seem to be a way of life in easyJet.

[FlapsOne]

In the true and long established traditions of these hallowed fora.......never, ever let the facts get in the way of a good story!

If you're that concerned about something why not contact your CC, or even the person accused of the 'crime'?

..................nah........that would be too easy!

..and before anyone asks......no it wasn't!

[In Tiffanys trousers]

GoodShipLollipop:

I am led to believe from pilot contacts in easy that your "facts" are correct. And it was the LPL Base Captains job he was after. Also thought he would become a trainer, along with most other base captains at easy, which may have been at the top of his agenda. No other way he would be considered, thats for sure. I am also told that ex CC members are livid, and have asked the CC Chairman for action. None was forthcoming, which has increased concerns over the current CC's mentality.

FlapsOne:

Time you gave it away old son. it's obviously getting to you. Not everything is defensible.

stationcalling:

The "alleged share options to those who were not entitled" was settled out of court a while ago. Those who were "not entitiled", recieved cash settlements from the company at the last moment, before court proceedings. They will not be talking about it. Always in these kind of settlements there will be a confidentiality clause. And, "the past CC members who were made trainers", were actually trainers before there was ever a Balpa CC at easy. In one case before he was ever a Balpa member. Your post is inaccurate and insulting.

You are not the gentleman that GoodShipLollipop refers to by any chance are you ?.

[Da Dog]

It seems this is part of the course now a days:{ :{

Happened at BA, the head of the BACC went to the dark side:mad: :mad:

A few of us are waiting for the next "high profile" migration:yuk: :yuk:

[RAT 5]

Poacher turned gamekeeper; nothing unusual in that. Way back in the late 70's the BY BALPA PLC chairman entered management and became, eventually, what some regarded as a decent deputy M.D.

What might/should be of more concern is the nature of the appointment. I thought that ej was supposed to be an "open & transparent" culture with career prospects for all. (Has my cynicism just be confirmed, correctly, once again.) In most companies, of whatever hue, it is normal for vacancies to be internally advertised, interviews and selections conducted, and then the best candidate for the post, if available, appointed. This would follow the prophessed philosophy of ej, and good management technique in any industry. A differing case is often for the head honcho, e.g. chairman, to be an outside person with fresh ideas.

So why was there no advert this time? Why the secrecy? Who had what to hide? What is the hidden agenda?

This to me is more important than a CC member simply wanting to better his lot; but at least do it fairly & openly.

Another question completely. Why oh why, in UK airlines especially, do management pilots need to be trainers? It's nonsense. I've seen it so many times that pilots wanted to rise to be managers, for a variety of reasons, usually selfish. First they had to be appointed trainers; and disasterous ones they proved to be. A good natural trainer has no desire to muddle around in the political world of management. He wants to pass on words of wisdom to the troops. A person who wants to be a ladder climbing manager has no interest in instruction, rather being in power; and that attiutude is dreadful in a teacher. They are completely different animals. So why should the former need to pass through the hoop of the latter? Wierd!

[thegypsy]

RAT 5 Yes indeed he did ( DH ) You cannot blame Balpa for that individual joining Management. Afterall he may be just what EZY needs.

Sounds like a lame excuse for someone trying to justify saving 1%
When will Pilots stop blaming Balpa. They are only as good as the Members in each company. They may be the Generals but they need Troops to fight and that is what is sadly lacking when needed.

[Angus Meecoat]

Nothing unusual in a CC member becoming management.

Same happened at GB, Ex CC member now the new Flight Operations Manager having first tried his luck as Flight Safety Manager. Did a good job on the CC so good luck to him.

Sorry goodship, can't see what the problem is

[Mr Ree]

thegypsy, I don't buy that arguement; plenty of troops in WW1, but led a merry dance by appalling generals/leadership.

At the moment, whether right or wrong, the impression is that the CC pushed a controversial agreement through with threats and sometimes bullying tactics that left many scratching their heads and asking themselves to whose benefit was the deal for? The pilots or the company?

Because if the benefit was for me, the pilot, I don't see it, both in terms of my new roster and how my leave has been stuffed around. But I see plenty of benefit for the company, both in terms of my new roster and how my leave has been stuffed around with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So if there is an element of doubt raised by the actions of the CC then of course those who feel hard done by regarging the new deal will naturally ask questions about the real motives of those involved.

[In Tiffanys trousers]

I think the point is, in this case, the "interview process". The gentleman in question requested that the interview took place outside the easyjet enviroment, away from the LPL office, in secrecy. This request was accepted.

The gentleman concerned also failed to advise the CC or its chairman of his intent. While I agree that it is anybodys right to pursue a management position, probably he should have at least advised the CC chairman, and disqualified himself from CC meetings during the process.

By going this route, and getting the company to agree, he has left his integrity open to question, when purporting to represent pilots. Especially if you take a quick look at his original manifesto when first standing for CC election.

You don't have to be Einstein to work out that when things get tough in future negotiations, given that his application was unsuccesful, that he will be the target of " a nod and a wink", from those on the other side of the table. "New management position coming up N....., we need to get this through" etc etc.

Well done GoodShipLollipop for "outing him". I hope many will take notice with his candidacy for re-election in the near future.

It is not only the pilots in easy who have benefited from the success in the past of the pilots CC. the "knock on" effect has helped many of us in the Orange Castle as well.

[Basic T]

I was already on the doubt of resigning from BALPA as I got very anoyed by the fact that they keep stating that to get things through they need more members but nothing is done to recruit them, especially not around the continental bases!
WAKE UP easy is going continental!

I was gonna wait and see till after the next pay talks but this latest situation has convinced me to resign.

Have we lost our priorities?

:(

[outofsynch]

This is old old hat. Happened ages ago. CC chairman did act. Nothing to it. All back to normal.
Some people just look for wild reasons to resign from BALPA, and not to support their peers in fighting management.

[Basic T]

outofsynch,

Having stated 2/3 times before that maybe not even 5% of the pilots based on the continent are BALPA members, still nothing is being done to improve this. Having operated around almost all continental bases I can say that the majority of our german/foreign collegues don't even know about BALPA!!

This is not just a wild reason to resign and views of how such an organisation is supposed to run are different and personal.
If BALPA were to introduce a "first year free" subscription we stood a good chance during the upcoming talks.

I have my reasons to leave your have yours to stay, we're still in the same boat.

:D

[outofsynch]

Well Basic T you are showing not only your incredible lack of knowledge, but also your extreme bias...

Because on June 23, 3 or 4 BALPA reps spent the whole day in the SXF crewroom chatting to the local pilots, many who showed substantial interest in joining!

Can you expalin that as 'doing nothing'?

What have YOU done to recruit people?

Balpa is nothing, but a group of PILOTS (yes you, me and others) who joined to support each other. Why dont you do your bit, instead of standing against your colleagues?

Your CC, NEC and Balpa staff are currently working on plans to affiliate with VC and SNPL etc to allow overseas pilots to join either union, but still be represented by the BALPA CC in negotiations.

Is this aslo 'doing nothing'?

[Basic T]

Outofsynch,

I have to correct myself, apologies, I wasn't aware of the fact that they recently have been visiting SXF, have been on leave. This is good news!
As you might have noticed I have posted my concern before on this board and then again nothing was done.
So far my part of lack of knowledge....

My input?? I have been asking for folders / posters to be sent over to the base, I always try to talk with new joiners about BALPA and have been keeping my colleagues up to date.

I have never been standing against my colleagues in 4 years of easy.

All the best

:D

[Bokkenrijder]

Quickly to Bacis T´s defense:

What have YOU done to recruit people?

Why are we (the members) supposed to recruit other members? Isn´t that BALPA´s job? Can´t they spend some our contributions on recruiting members on the mainland?

Don´t get me wrong, I always try to persuade the guy/gal next to me to join BALPA, but I don´t really have a strong case without any backup/support from BALPA itself.

Furthermore, I think that this whole story won´t help BALPA much either. It just fuels the already negative feelings against BALPA, making it even more difficult for me to convince anyone to join. :sad:

For the moment I just stay member for the ´legal protection´ (for whatever that´s worth :rolleyes: ) but I don´t expect any improvement in our terms and conditions.

[outofsynch]

But Bokkie...
Who is BALPA?
Balpa is only a bunch of line pilots.... who hire a few fulltime staff to assist them in their endeavours.

We are BALPA.. a bunch of line pilots like me and you. There is no magic mammoth organisation to recruit pilots. And if there was, then the subs would be well over 1%.

BALPA staff didnt get the majority of BA or Virgin pilots to join... fellow pilots did.

If members cant be bothered recruiting, then there wont be any.

[Bokkenrijder]

Sorry, maybe I wasn´t clear:

It´s not about being to lazy to recruit new members.

It´s about not having any convincing BALPA facts/achievements to recruit members with. :ugh:

Good night! [gotta take a nap, because I´m on "lates" (i.e. 9 am check in :hmm: ) tomorrow.]

Bokkie

[GoodShipLollipop]

Having calmed down a bit now and done some more research, I can see this was not an isolated occasion and "current cretinous management" sums it up rather well. Some of the other pilot managers (Base Captains) appear to have been appointed after just telephone calls were made, so it is quite amazing really that there was actually a face to face interview held at all.

Out of Synch. You are "Out of Touch" because some of us value integrity fairly high on our list of qualities for the pilots who are suposed to represent us and if this deceitful person did not have that integrity to make his intentions clear, then I am damned if he will represent me and therfore my resignation from Balpa. I ask you this question. Would you buy a used car from a man like that? No? Well niether would I!

Flaps One. You have lost the plot. The easyjet pilots have been royally shafted by the "cretinous management" with the conivance and cooperation of the Balpa CC. We are working harder than ever before and have had some of our leave taken away for good measure. If that wasn't bad enough, it now appears that you cannot even TRUST the members of the CC - because it seems they want to secretly GET INTO MANAGEMENT! For heavens sake can't you see what this looks like from the line pilots' perspective? Its a bloody joke, that's what it is! Only WE (the line pilots and former Balpa members) are on the receiving end of it and I for one do not find it funny.

[FlapsOne]

GSL

You are truly beyond belief!

Your 'research' is wrong.......but I doubt that will bother you.

No CC members have taken, or been offered, management positions...........but that won't bother you either I guess.

If you think we are working harder than ever before.......you haven't been here long enough!

If you had been present at any CC meeting with management over the last 2 years, or if you had read any of the minutes of meetings, you would know that what you say is complete and utter bunkum........but I suppose that won't bother you either.

Resign if you wish, but you are about to leave yourself very exposed against..........what did you call it?...........a 'cretinous mangement' (....that has no CC members by the way!).

[outofsynch]

GSL... I dont believe it is me who is out of touch.

Everyone marks a CC (or the mighty BALPA machine) purely on what they gain from management.

Whilst this may have been true in the past, in legacy carriers, with high percentage union membership, it no longer applies to the LCC model.

With ...management permananetly in 'cut-back' mode, your CC spends the majority of time fire-fighting, and trying to stop a backward slide!

Have you spent much time contemplating how much worse our conditions might now be without a union applying the brakes?

Forget fixed pattern, forget anything more than minimum legal leave, forget anything that they dont legally have to give you, like quality accomodation or crew food/water. The management want you to leave. They say they have plenty of people queing up to work far more, for far less.

[NOT ORANGE]

Well nothing changes at easy.When I resigned from BALPA 2 years ago after 13 years membership it was because a cc from LPL had sorted out over 60 s working rights plus we pay 1000 a year to keep that s**t food and new capts get 90% pay.The capt involved being over 60 of course, it wouldnt be the same gentleman would it?Nothing will ever improve at that sorrry excuse for an airline.The grass is still very much greener.

[FlapsOne]

Not Orange

So you resigned over 3 issues, 2 of which are not true!! How clever is that.

(for the record, there are no over 60s working rights, and the crew food money was the biggrest red herring of the century. Since you left the food has improved immeasurabely in quality and quantity).

What's more, rather than stay and help fight the 90% thing.........you resigned - brilliant idea!

I guess if you managed a football team, you'd take players off the pitch to mysteriously enhance the chances of victory.

[Bokkenrijder]

F1 and outosynch,

Try to see things realistically instead of though ´orange´ glasses.

A lot of pilots within easyJet are unhappy with BALPA.

Why do you think such is the case? All because of ´issues which are not true?´ :rolleyes:

Oh yeah, one more thing: it´s not just new captains that get 90% pay during the first 6 months. Brand new TRSS F/O´s (who already are on a reduced salary after paying for their type up front!) also get 90% of that reduced salary for the first 6 months! :mad:

[coughing corner]

I posted this on another thread but it works particularly well here with the discussion re unions.
As an ex union rep (not flight deck but aviation) there is a fundamental element the 'Don't join/won't join' element consistantly miss. You need numbers of members and the more the better. I've taken the references to EZY out as it it not relevant to this posting, as it applies whatever company you are in. Its pointless moaning about what BALPA T&G Unison USDAW arent doing for you. You are NOT a MEMBER and therefore are NOT being represented by the union. To be represented you have to join. If you're not happy with the policies being persued, then YOU have to make the effort to change them, YOU have to make the COMMITTMENT, as those you are unsatisfied with have done to get you to your current position. I used to have non members come to me and say what are you doing about such and such? 'Well I pay my subs, I'm do this for fellow MEMBERS in my time and its my committment, what's it got to do with you?' I'd ask. 'Well it affect's me too' they'd say. How very true I'd agree, and me doing #### all would affect you even more! Try it and see!

I used to get some very satisfactory results for both members and the company on individual personal issues, (the member isn't always right you see), but on the big T&C issues you will not get significant change without strength in numbers. This means the dissillusioned have to get their hands in their pockets and in effect pay to improve their conditions. Just like existing members already are, you have to see it as an investment. Literally no pain no gain. If you're not prepared to put up then shut up. A works council can influence some agenda in my experience, but with a strong union the effect is magnified. For those who were dissatisfied with vote results you need to remember that you may well have 100 members, but if only 5 can be bothered to vote on an issue then its not rocket science to see what effect the wrong 5% voting can have! You have to be active, not passive, that means other members have to assist to encourage non-members to join, you can't expect the reps to do it all. Or do you? because they have decided to try and improve things and sacrifice their time and effort is it right to sit there and say I'm a member, I'm way to busy to help, but I sure can moan about whats done on my behalf!. Well thats the benefit of my 8 years as a rep, and to any frustrated rep out there, just remember to ask 'Well what are YOU going to do from outside the union/council?' How are YOU going to improve things here at xyz?, to the next dumb question from a non-member. Then ask why they don't join, in my experience it frequently it boils down to them expecting something for nothing.

From Sydney Zoo an Alligator,
was put on board a flying freighter.
He ate the pilot and the navigator,
then asked for more with mashed potater

[outofsynch]

You say 'are unhappy with BALPA'.
Who is BALPA in any company? The CC !!!
If you are unhappy with a bunch of volunteers trying their very best.... then get yourself on the CC and show how you can do better. No one else can change things... except members themselves getting involved.

Resigning is fine, and your democratic right, as long as you are resigned to a worse deal next time, because the CC dont have the 'mandate' to do better.

[SHIMMY]

The CC work extremely hard in their own time and unpaid to better the lot for all the members
Days off are given up to make base visits and formulate ideas and review things such as pay surveys etc and all the troops can do is bash them into the ground - no wonder anyone has the energy to stay on the council for more than 2 years. At BA some of the council members have stood for nearly 10 years but they have a supportive membership who see the benefits of supporting their CC.
If anyone thinks the CC can just wave a magic wand and resolve all the issues put yourself up for election and see the real world.
It is all about expectations - if most people really bothered to think long and hard about what is achievable realistically then we might get somewhere - however most people just expect the CC to demand X Y & Z and for it to happen - well it won't without your support!
The CC work tirelessly to foster working relationships with all parties they work with - militancy and adverserial behaviour doesn't work but things cannot be achieved overnight. The amount of ongoing issues they have to deal with is overwhelming leaving an unsatisfactory amount of time to recruit. Members can help - everyone has a responsibility which they can use everytime they fly - so instead of putting energy into CC bashing why don't you put that into recruiting new members and then we will have real power to enforce change - look at what can be achieved when you have 80-90% membership such as Virgin etc

[Bokkenrijder]

outofsynch,

Simply throwing in the towel and saying ´why don´t you join the CC yourself´ is a very poor argument.

You (as volunteer on the CC? ;) ) should be in touch with the membership and listen to their feedback regarding hot issues.

A frequent complaint is that the CC does not listen very well to what the members want, but rather appears to have it´s own agenda, which is what this thread is about!

The result is that members feel that they are going backwards regarding issues like leave, profit sharing, pay, TRSS, rostering etcetera...

I do admire and appreciate the CC´s work, but I think the CC would make life a lot easier for itself if it would focus more on increasing it´s profile/visibility among the pilotcorps, rather than having ´behind closed doors´ meetings with management.

[FlapsOne]

Bokkenrijder

Meetings with management are confidential until an agreement is reached on an issue or publication of minutes are agreed. That has nothing to so with EZY but is in line with every official industrial recognition agreement in the UK.

We routinely canvass opinions from members, using formal surveys for the major issues. Action is taken on the majority opinion expressed therein.

What else can we do? The majority want something, we go for it and get the best we can but then someone who wanted something else says we didn't do what they asked us to. We DO always go with the majority - it's that simple.

Interestingly, a recent survey has highlighted a members priority area that we firmly believe is wrong, but we will go with the majority opinion until other instructions come in to the contrary.

[SHIMMY]

Do people really think the CC are doing nothing about the issues?
Well here is what they are doing

Leave - currently evaluating a completely new system
Pay - reviewing all the pay surveys that went out so that a priority and strategy can be put together for the imminent pay negotiations - what the MEMBERS want - nothing to do with the CC priorities - they would be the same as yours as they are line pilots too you know - I don't know why anyone would think they are any different
Rostering - ongoing discussions with the Company about the building blocks needed to put in place now to improve the new system. More improvement likely once the full data from 5/2 5/4 is available in September
Profit Share - Loyalty bonus will remain until such time as something at least equivalent is avaiable which doesn't appear to be on any horizon soon
TRSS - CTC presented to the CC last week and gave detailed information about the scheme and answered some challenging questions

Then there is Information and Consulting agreement, part time working, leave allocation, over 60s, dual basing, NEC matters, joint union alliances in Europe, base visits, recruitment, disciplinaries, grievances, poor performance policy, drugs and alcohol policy etc etc etc - all that amongst 8 people in their own time

Now do you see realities??? Lets support our CC and show some unity please!

[unablereqnavperf]

Flaps one

Why is the C.C. even entering into negotiations on TRSS when this in itself is a gaint step backwards for the whole industry?

Every negotiation so far has meant that we have lost something to gain very little.

I'm not knocking the effort that you guys put in but I do query the results, when ever it looks like we are going to need a ballot for industrial action everybody S5its themselves, what you need is a mandate for industrial action to be used as a weapon it dosn,t have to be used!

The time for "all wind and trousers" has to come to an end!

[FlapsOne]

unablereqnavperf

The reason we talk is because without it we won't have an airline!!

The vast majority of joiners are TRSS just now. Like it or loathe it (and many like it!) it's here to stay and we would be failing in our reponsibility not to keep a handle on what's being done about it.

Think carefully about industrial action. There's a place for it but there's never really a time for it. It must be justified and fully supported. To win effectively, it must be recognised by the public as being just. Airline pilots strriking for pay, for example, would draw hoots of derision form the media and public at at large and would undoubtedly fail. Fatigue, on the other hand, would be a different debate. Like I have said before, get me the support etc.............................

Now that lot is not easy to satisfy which is why it is always a last resort. Put simply that means when ALL other avenues have failed.

[Bokkenrijder]

The vast majority of joiners are TRSS just now. Like it or loathe it (and many like it!) it's here to stay and we would be failing in our reponsibility not to keep a handle on what's being done about it. Errrrrrrrr..... Did you just say: "and many like it?" What planet are you from??? The only reason people ´like it´ is because (thanks to BALPA) there is no other alternative! It´s ´here to stay´ because the CC lets it stay! :mad:
Like it or loathe it (and many like it!) it's here to stay... Sounds a lot like management-speak to me... I can´t believe I´m paying 1% for this! :ooh:

Interestingly, a recent survey has highlighted a members priority area that we firmly believe is wrong, but we will go with the majority opinion until other instructions come in to the contrary. I wonder what priority area that would be... Could it perhaps be: improving our working conditions? :rolleyes:

[captplaystation]

I refer you to my posting of 1st July on the other Easy thread(leaving for greener pastures)/sorry I'm too stone-age to link.I hate to say "told you so" but the more things change the more they don't. Ask any of your(non-masonic)ex BMI colleagues we had this scum for years.Good luck,careful with the hand-shakes!

[Stu Bigzorst]

The vast majority of joiners are TRSS just now. Like it or loathe it (and many like it!)

FlapsOne,

I have a serious question for you. I paid eJ £23,000 for the job (with a standard salary). I wasn't paid for 3.5 months. I had my salary reduced by 10% for the next 6 months. I paid for my uniform. I was then told that all my base requests were denied, and I had to re-locate to a different country at my own cost.

My question is: what is it that these pilots like about TRSS? Seriously. Because I might have missed the point, and as such am not enjoying the benefits of TRSS as much as I should.

I was considering joining BALPA. But it is a matter of economics. The last pay rise was 1.98% pa. If I have to pay BALPA for negotiating this, then my pay rise is a whopping 0.98%. Sorry, but I've been fleeced once recently, and won't be fleeced again.

Anyway, I'm off now to spend my loyalty bonus. I'm sure I put it somewhere... Oh, no, I forgot, that was negotiated away from me too.

Stu

[Slim20]

I think it's time for these daft arguments about the numbers game to STOP.

As posted elsewhere - if the CC keeps harping on about its great relationship with management and says it can't negotiate better deals due to the dwindling membership then there needs to be a sincere about-face in the way the CC does business with the company.

Unions do not exist to smooth the path for unpopular decisions by management. Unions are a means for a workforce to make representation for BETTER working conditions, and if they can't get them by "peaceful" means, then they can use their position to apply other means of pressure.

It is not illegal to use more fuel, but by heck if all the BALPA members began loading a bit more and working to rule, you will hear the pips squeak down in easyLand.

Start growing some teeth, EZY CC, and start seeing the membership grow accordingly!

[Bokkenrijder]

Well said Stu and Slim20!

[Basic T]

Well spoken Slim20, couldn't agree more...


:D

[FlapsOne]

Slim20

Your suggestion is irresponsible and totally unprofessional. At a a time of staggeringly high oil prices your idea, if carried out long-term accross an airline, might lead to possible redundancies due to excessive financial pressure. Deliberately throwing away profit most certainly would not get you a pay rise!

Stu and others

Balpa didn't introduce TRSS. Balpa didn't negotiate it 'in'. It was intruduced as a company scheme and applicants took up the deal. It's not our deal but many have said that they would not have a job if it had not been for the scheme. I don't like it personally but why are so many doing it??

Whether or not you believe it (and I lnow you won't because it would ruin your argument) but your payrise last year would have been non-existent without Balpa. That's fact whether you like it or not so you can argue percentages from now till doomsday but I know what happened in the talks and, clearly, you do not.

We published the details but you obviously chose not to read it or not to believe it.

The CC spend much of their own time trying to protect what little we have. Sometimes it's a battle royal to maintain the status quo.

What we can always rely on is that there will always be someone, who personally has done square root of FA but knows more (without being there) does more (without lifting a finger) promises more (without understanding a thing) and shouts about it all day!

Bokkenrijder

Yes we appear to be from different planets. Your views do not seem to match the majority but i should apparently bow to your wishes.

As regards the survey.......no! But i would suggest that everyone avail themselves of a suitable financial appraisal of the airline business for the the present and the educated guesswork for the next 6-12 months and then look at the survey again.

The CC did the work and that's why we came to a different conclusion.

However, we will act on the results. This is a democracy - even if you don't agree.

I'll quit this thread now but happy to continue on the new Balpa forum - (which is working perfectly well by the way and has been since Thursday!)

[Stu Bigzorst]

FlapsOne

I'd love to come and read the BALPA forum (and I guess this is where I'd find the "published" details on the pay rise), but I can't afford to pay £350 to do so.

I have £70,000 of debt to easyJet and Oxford.

I wish I could get involved to help us employees, but again £350 is cash I don't have.

At the time, the TRSS was the only choice. But it isn't now. Only those who are too gash to get bonded jobs are left with the TRSS option.

Finally, TRSS is very poor for employee loyalty. Normally, one feels that the employee owes the company something for investing in the employee - but now, all FO's for the last few years feel that eJ owes them something.

£23,000 to be exact.

Stu

[Bokkenrijder]

I understand your position Stu, TRSS does not create any loyalty and undermines BALPA. People just ´join´ eJ to log the hours and then leave again.

Unfortunately folks like F1 do not seem to understand that this (again!) totally undermines BALPA in the long run.

For the few older (but not necesarily wiser ;) ) TRSS F/O´s like myself, who were led to believe that eJ was a real career airline, it´s a sad reality. I´m also looking for greener pastures now, but I don´t feel like moving again and starting from stratch.

I voted mainly for F/O´s for the new CC, now let´s hope that they can blow a little fresh air through eJ.

[wheresthecoffee]

Why would it cost £350 to join. i think your numbers are wrong! (1/2 per cent year one and tax relief to follow??)

Why does TRSS undermine Balpa? Surely it has nothing to do with Balpa.

The current CC has 2 FOs, one is TRSS. The last 5 or 6 monthly minutes i received said each time the efforts they are going to to improve the loan arrangements and rates etc. It's in black and white.
i'm watching all this from within, but what on earth do you guys want?

You made the decision to join under TRSS and now you blame Balpa - weird!
Lst year I was not sure wheter to join Balpa or not but listening to you guys - i'm glad i did...

btw. Instead of voting for FOs, i don't suppose you put your name forward did you?

[Whippersnapper]

Flaps One, you accuse the antis of lying, but you are the liar. I have rarely seen you post anything honest; it's always a distortion of the truth or an all out lie. You suck up to the mgmt in a vain effort to get your TRI/TRE promotion, but it won't happen. Want to know why? The 3 CC members that were bought by Ray were a major thorn in his side - they were veciferous in their dealings on the council, and were pushing towards industrial action. They only started to paly along once they were promoted. Since you're already a tame little poodle, why bother promoting you?


The reason that membership in EZY is so poor is that those running the CC, even the initially honest, are corrupted by EZY mgmt, and end up selling the members out. It's that simple.

[ojay]

whippersnapper -I rarely peruse the drivel prevalent in pprune let alone respond -however,I am compelled to contribute as your accusations -bordering on the scandalous-are completely false.

The cc members who were TRE's were long standing members of the 737 training team and not 'bribed' by offers of improved training qualifications,ie they were TRE's before union involvement;in fact knowing them all well I am only too aware of the huge amount of work and effort put in by these individuals versus the 'challenges' they faced with negotiations with management.I am leaving to join a company where the terms and conditions reflect the strength of the union membership.w/s you too should reflect on outrageous and totally incorrect lies.

vociferous is not spelt with an 'e'

rgds,

Blair Boyle
Training Standards/737/easyJet

[FlapsOne]

I have to respond to that!

Whippersnapper -

I have accused no-one of lying, but you have.

Ray brought no-one to the CC - what nonsense is that?

You have really strange ideas if you think that some of the arguments we have with the other side of the table could ever be described as 'sucking up'. You make that statement with no knowledge whatsover. There have been no favours or back door deals.

Furthermore, the people we meet with each month have nothing to do with TRI/TRE appointments (not to mention the courses that must be passed - it's not a gift!) so I don't really know what the hell you're on about with that rubbish. It is also very insulting.

You also totally misunderstand the membership levels. Sure, it's not 90%, but it certainly isn't poor. I want to see 90%+ so we can really get results - but according to you I would just suck up to management - why the hell do I want more members then!!!!!!

Now you say that you have never seen anything honest from me yet I can prove everything I have said and provide witnesses.........but you are really not worth the effort.

3 guys here have gone on about industrial action, and 1 isn't even a member...........what a mandate!

whippersnapper and others..........if you are so damned good, please get off your backsides and do the job yourselves.

We will take consructive criticism any day but the above posted nonsense needs confining to the trash can!

Over and definitely out!!

[Nil further]

whippersnapper

i am no lover of FlapsOne /the BALPA cc, we have crossed swords many times on the BALPA board .(i hope constructively)

I must tell you that Blair Boyle is completely correct . Two of the Gentlemen (and that is what they surely are) you refer to are known to me personally , i am not a trainer , simply a line pilot .Your comments about these two guys ( i do not know the third ) are scandalous . Two finer men ,pilots and trainers you could not meet anywhere . They have given their time and in some cases their health to improve all our lots . It may not be to your liking but at least they tried to do something constructive about things.

You should retract your purile nonsense forthwith .

Direct your fire where it belongs; the Make a Difference , Step Change crowd .

Regards

NF

[unablereqnavperf]

Flaps one
BALPA should be negotiating to stop this TRSS nonsence it has no place in this industry and will ruin everyones future!

For those considering TRSS your better off being unemployed!
As some one has pointed out £23 000 and then put up with all the crap what other proffesional signs up for that S%it?

If you signed up for it you deserve all you get! Harsh but true!

As for the pay off rumors to CC members I'm with Blair its bull****, the guys concerend are gentlmen although we may disagree on some points they are formost gentlemen and do not deserve to be slated on this public forum!

[nimbuscumulus]

I don't know the story well enough to know who we are talking about, so I am not going to comment on the truefulness of the allegations made. They are very serious though and the people that make them better know what they are doing.

I am not a Balpa member for reasons that go further back than my EJ employment and sofar I haven't been tempted to revert that decission. I fail to understand how I am supposed to feel more rested after 5 earlies; one of their 'major achievements' that have made my life worse than before. Could it be that it is not that the CC don't know how to fight our battle, it is more that they fight the wrong battle? But maybe that's too much of a sidestep for now.

However, I do want to say this: If there was at any time a Ryanair pilot having serious doubts about putting his job on the line in order to join Balpa, instead of just keeping his head down, I recon after reading this topic he/she will be cured. What a fine display of unison!
Hopefully for their sake, Outofsynch was right when he said that Balpa is not some organisation, but actually just the pilots involved... Maybe they still have a chance then! ;)

[Rick Binson]

There is an easy way to stop this TRSS crap.

Don't sign on the dotted line.

Unfortunately our colleagues scrambling for jobs are more than happy to shove others aside and sign on the dotted line.

I always thought TRSS would come back to bite the people who signed up for it. As soon as the market turns and easyJet struggles for pilots TRSS will disappear or they'll end up getting the dregs that no one else wants. Those that have signed will be bonded for 5 years on the reduced salary whilst new joiners will no doubt be on a higher salary with traditional bond.

The only people to blame for the "success" of TRSS are the people that signed up for it. But as is typical of today's society they are not to blame......

As a BALPA member I don't see what mandate BALPA has to influence recruitment policy...

[coughing corner]

Same old stuff....and still no offers to help or volunteer. Ho hum....

[Stu Bigzorst]

I hereby offer to help. I will put in time and effort. I would love to. I also feel I'd be good at it (given my "previous life").

But I can't afford the BALPA sub. If BALPA would like to offer me a fixed rate the same as the IPA/IPF, then I'll be there straight away. CC and all (if people would let me).

Anyone in BALPA who could sort this, please PM me!

Stu

[Rick Binson]

Well if you're an S/FO and you join BALPA it is half price for your first year and 0.75% for your second. You'll get tax relief on your subs to the tune of 40% of 66.67 % of your membership fees.

Rough figures suggest it maybe £2 more expensive per month than the IPA for the first year.....How does £13.00 a month sound? It maybe less as those figures are calculated on top scale old SFO....

Anyhow you could give it a go for a year and see what you think.

You can join at www.balpa.org

[Colonel Klink]

Gentlemen,

I am extremely distressed at some of the foul-mouthed diatribe I am reading, and I think it is overdue to call a stop to this nonsense. I have avoided entering in to this debate before now but it has got totally out of hand.
Lest any of you have any doubt who I am, I was proud to be the Chairman of the CC for about two years, until April this year. I probably still would be, but nearly lost my medical in the process due to the sheer stress of the work involved.
Firstly, a great many changes have taken place to our working arrangements over the last few years. Remember also, that the CC is an unpaid body of volunteers who freely give their time to protect YOUR pay and conditions. As Ojay quite rightly points out, the airline he is about to join has a high Balpa membership and the best terms and conditions in the industry. A few years ago, VAA got a 26.5% pay rise with a membership level above 90%!! In other words, the members gave their CC the tools to do the job, and they did it well in both cases.
We all know easyJet is difficult; they strive to cut costs, frequently at their own employees expense. They have tried to make us competitive to ensure you have a job in the future, yet we all give a 100% and often don't get rewarded the same way. Let me correct a few misconceptions:
To the PR!CK that insulted FlapsOnes personal integrity and professionalism, how dare you suggest he has secured his promotion on the basis of his CC work. This guy above all others has given two years of unparalleled support to you all and this attack is shameful. Bearing in mind he has often been at loggerheads with the company during this time , it is actually very surprising that they promoted him.So to is the suggestion that some of the CC who got paid out for their shares capitulated to managment in the process! One of these is the ex Rostering sub-committee and another was the CC chairman before me, another a well-respected Base Trainer from LPL. I don't think anyone would accuse MC of being a management stooge!!!!These guys were lied to, and sought to get justice and did so.This was going on while they were acting on your behalf to secure better terms for YOU, so I hope you feel suitably shamed by this outright lie.
Remember gentlemen, those who complain about the CC should rememeber that it is a member -driven organisation and a few years ago we did a survey to find out what you wanted. A similar survey was done recently. Sometimes, in negotiations, something has to be given away to get or retain something bigger. A case in point was the 8 Public Holidays, which were traded so that you ALL could have Summer leave this year, or we would still be at the negotiating table. The horrible mess of the GDO system suggests thast one day soon, the 5th week may be restored and if it is, it will be down to the CC. For those who suggest the 5/2/5/4 is not working properly, have a close look at the current shortages across the network; it was never envisaged that they would run the crews so low or train new Airbus bases over Summer, or many other things they do but this is not our fault.
I could go on all night but nothing would be impossible if we had the tools to do the job, we would be able to tell the easyJet management what we want. I suggest each and every one of you has a good look at what you want, and think long and hard about what you are prepared to do to get it. But don't come crying to me if you are not a member of Balpa, or are not prepared to do some of the fighting yourself.

[Whippersnapper]

I want o appologise for my previous thread. It overstated my view on the matter, and such strong accusations are unwarranted.

what I wanted to say, but failed to do so, was the the 3 members I mentioned were extremely effective in their early efforts, which is why they recieved such endorsement by the memebrs when they were co-opted oto the council. They did a huge amount of work, had a lot of great ideas and took an very tough stance. My perspective though was that this waned somewhat a while after they became TREs. This may well have been down to other pressures reducing time available, to mgmt playimg silly buggers or whatever, but the drive was lost.

[jetset]

Having been at easy longer than most, I am iritated to hear TRSS candidates or anyone else complaining about their lot at easy. This may be unjuistified on my part but the current salaries and conditions are due to the hard work of the current and previous BALPA comittees and support of members.

Your 1% was earned a long time ago by members who contributed without the tax break.

Thanks John, Mark, Kevin, Murray, Paul and the rest. The small steps have always been in the right direction.

Jset

[kriskross]

Well done, Whippersnapper, for your gracious apology to the guys concerned, and knowing them as well as I do, I can assure you that they put in every available moment and some others on their members behalf.

Continually fighting against a management team who 1) won't listen, 2) hear what they want to hear and 3) don't care anyway, is one of the most soul destroying occupations I have ever seen. Let me remind you all that one of the gentlemen concerned was put through great personal distress and sickness, and 2 others almost lost their flying, following the amount of time spent on the members behalf.

In a previous company, CC members were given 2 days off roster a month for BALPA business, what do our guys get - nothing. They fly a full programme just like everyone else, and those who are trainers, who seem to be the most slated, have just gone through an extra standardisation exercise, completed of course in their own time. These gentlemen also give of their best as trainers as well.

Give the guys a break, or join, apply for the CC in the elections and do it your way, you will also get my support. But do know what you are up against and try not to knock those who are doing their best for the members.

[kick the tires]

Just who was the judas?

[GoodShipLollipop]

The Judas was allegedly the CC rep from Liverpool. It is curious that many of the Balpa pilots seem to think his behavior acceptable, but may be I am just being old fashioned.

Back in 1998/99 easyJet were calculating sector pay for pilots based on an average of 438 sectors per year, but by the year 2000 this had crept up to an average of 470 sectors per year. Now it is something like 600 per annum in order that the company can get their 900 hours per year that they want out of each pilot. Now I know that some of the Balpa defenders are going to say words to the effect, "You see, without Balpa representing you, the terms and conditions would be much worse at easyJet...." but my question to them is, "How much worse could it be?!" We are already working 900 hours per year as it is and for good measure Balpa have negotiated away our loyalty bonus in favour of a profit bonus, another con.

Add this to the negotiating away of the week's leave per year for some mythical good deal about extra guaranteed days off and you can see why the pilots won't join Balpa. Believe me guys, it does not get much worse than this. The only reason why some of us stay with the company is the money which is ample, but money ain't everything and I have not free time to spend it, i am always getting up at 4.30 in the morning to go to work it seems. Shortly I will voting with my feet like so many of our former colleagues, just have to find the right job first.

[outofsynch]

GSL..
The loyalty bonus remains as firmly as it has ever been. You just wont read the truth.

[outofsynch]

.GSL has deleted his reply....

Sorta.... when so many people wont let the FACTS get in the way of a good sh!t stir.

The only reason the CC cant get a better deal, is because so many apathetic types think 90% union membership doesnt scare management. Which union it is dont matter!

Look at the evidence!

Who has the most lucrative pilot contracts? The pilots who stick together, not the ones busy maligning their colleagues

[flying headbutt]

The loyalty bonus for FO's has GONE!!!!! Given (negotiated) away. To quote from the Balpa Bulletin Board at the time (from certain members of the then CC) "There's only so much available and it's for Captains" & somethong along the line of "who gives a flying ***** what the FOs want, you'll all get quick commands...". Both posts subsequently removed after indignant replies by peeved FOs. Well the quick commands seem to have dried up (at least on the Being) so now what? With no loyalty bonus the FOs now take home a substantial amount less than before - but thats okay I suppose as long as the Captains are alright!!! Bo!!ocks I say!! And for info I voted against all the pay deals despite constant hounding by text from Balpa to say yes.

:* :*

[Basic T]

For me it's not about the money......

I would like to see the company make a real effort to give us a real choice to stay with the airline.
Instead of a payrise in september they should improve the pension and improve the leave system and even start to introduce some kind of seniority system.
We now have over 1100 pilots instead of 280 when I joined....offcourse there's going to be trouble with bidding for leave!

E.g. is it still acceptable for someone who has upgraded and had to move from his base to go back on a waitinglist to return to his base of preference after a lot of new joiners with a transfer request have gone first??? These situations make you think.....
sh!t they really don't care if I stay or leave!
That is where the company is heavily mistaken......there maybe enough pilots available now but in the future that might not be the case and than it gets very expensive to keep your pilots!!

Don't get me wrong I am pretty orange but I have found myself in a position where I looked, what has easy got to offer for the future besides money?....what is going to give me the real job satisfaction in the future? I am sorry to say that I feel easy is more than happy to replace me anytime and any extra effort is not being noted anymore as we have lost the big picture.....

:suspect:

[FlapsOne]

headbutt

Your quotes are garbage! You have taken 2 or 3 words from what was said on a BB and added you own nonsense to completely distort the fact. Why on earth would you want do such a thing?

Further more, the posts are still there, they have never been removed. Just put in the effort to find them.

The FOs' loyalty bonus was NOT negotiated away. After mnay hard battles the Captains' loyatly bonus was SAVED - spot the difference. The company was hell - bent on dirching the lot and only hard talk saved part of it.

Would have preferred the lot to go perhaps? Well pal, without Balpa I can absolutley assure that would be the case right now.

Wake up and see that in this 'wonderful, modern age' we spend a lot of or time fighting to even keep the status quo, let alone try and improve matters.

If you really voted against ALL the pay deals, you are firmly in the minority, and I suspect you seek something that is just not available and you might like to reconsider you chosen career path!!

[Right Way Up]

FlapsOne,
The post Headbutt refers to, was regarding F/O sector pay compared to SCCMs sector pay. The reply was exactly along the lines Headbutt describes. As a Captain I thought the reply was a disgrace and it is the nearest I have been to resigning from Balpa. The post was later edited to remove the offending words.

[Oleo]

OK, and who wrote the offending post?

Forget quick comands on the airbus too, currently up to a 10 month wait even to be assessed.

[Right Way Up]

Oleo,
Somebody who is not on the committee anymore. I did not resign because I gave him the benefit of the doubt, due to the very high workload of the committee and the high levels of stress that would have been involved.

[FlapsOne]

"who gives a flying ***** what the FOs want, you'll all get quick commands..."
and
"There's only so much available and it's for Captains"
The only person to have said that in print is flying headbutt.

I know exactly what was said in the original posting on the BB, and it certainly wasn't that.

From the first sentence the words "FOs" and "commands" were used - the rest is total BS!

The second sentence is equally nonsense.

If you want to quote, do it accurately or not at all.

[kick the tires]

Personally I cant see what all the fuss is about!

We get a good wage each month, good predictable days off, we have a CC that DOES give a FF about T & C's and work hard on our behalf. Nice aircraft, nice crews and despite the increased size, we still have a laugh at work.

People moan about a career airline - a career is a step up from FO to Captain. There may now be a waiting list but there arent any shortages of spaces. Yes, some delays which is a pain for the individuals but not a cause to throw teddy out of cot. A career is then into the training department. If thats what you want then fine, but the percentage of trainers to pilots (airlines everywhere) is small. So why not chill out and go to work, do your stuff and take the money.

If you dont like it leave. There ARE plenty of jobs available - do it dont blab about it, its boring and tiresome.

There are PLENTY of things that can be done to improve our lot, a lot at little cost to the Company. But those of you that have been around a bit will know that ALL, yes ALL, companies are the same.

I had a little exchange of words with a Thompson Fly captain not long ago. A bit of banter after he called himself easy. He said he'd been with easy for 5 years and difficult to get out of the habit of callsign.

When asking him what its like there he said "exactly the same, just a different colour!"

Says it all really!

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Stu Bigzorst

You have kindly offered to do all this work for BALPA for nothing but you can't afford to join. Can I suggest that every pilot in easyJet could afford to join BALPA but many choose not to in order to spend their hard-earned cash on other things. It is all down to priorities. If you were serious about BALPA you would find the money and join - and so would I but I don't!

Herein lies the dilemna for many easyJet pilots. Is it fair to let others pay the money and do the work yet whine when you do not get what you would have liked in terms and conditions? Probably not. And yet 1% of your salary seems a staggering amount for not a huge return. The fact is that I resent paying that sum of money that could, for example, be spent on private health care which is not currently provided by easyJet. And yet I feel that I am not playing my part.

I left BALPA following serious misgivings about various issues at a previous company and was initiially delighted to have a bit more cash. I was thinking of rejoining and then the dreadful site of BALPA helping Jessica Starmer rob BA blind was just too much and I put off the evil day again. And yet, in my heart of hearts I feel I am sponging off other people. Like everyone else I will wait with great interest to see the results of the next pay round.

At first glance it would be easy to become disillusioned - BALPA managed to get an annual pay cycle changed to 18 months, lose the FO's loyalty bonus, agree in principle to get rid of the of the Captains' bonus in favour of a scheme that would cost the company less and to cap it all managed to negotiate away a week of leave for everyone! In the meantime 40 managers got a pot of £10 million to 'thank' them for their efforts during the GO merger and no easyJet pilots got a bean. It could hardly be regarded as a success and I am sure our bosses must be simply delighted to deal with such generous opposition.

And yet I cannot help but feeling that if we had a huge membership then the negotiating position would be totally different. We could fight for a proper pension (GB Airways recently got an increase from 10% to 14% and we are stuck on 7%), private medical care (wait until you are ill and you will know how vital that is) and proper leave arrangements.

So - what to do? I have decided on a course of action that I will share with the group. I wish to give BALPA a chance and give them ammunition to fight the battle ahead. I have therefore decided to join for 6 months starting in September and will wait and see what deal they come up with. If they negotiate away the captain's loyalty bonus for some manifestly worse scheme, fail to get the pension sorted and fail to get a sensible pay rise and don't get issues such as a London weighting on the agenda then I will leave. Equally, if it can be seen by a reasonable person that BALPA have achieved something that would not otherwise have occurred then I will be delighted and will encourage others to follow suit.

This is therefore my challenge to the doubters - give our CC a fighting chance and join up prior to the next round of negotiations (anyone give me a date for that please?). If they do well back them and if they do badly then leave. But what cannot be acceptable to is to give them no real clout and complain when they do not come up trumps.

[outofsynch]

NSF, as one who does pay my 1%, I would like to thank you for your offer of rejoining. We wont get much in this pay round (31Oct) without more people doing likewise.

I just wish to correct a couple of 'facts' in your fourth paragraph.

The CC didnt change the pay negotiation cycle to 18months permanently. It was a one off to let the company hold negotiations in the second half of year rather than first. It is back to yearly now.
The CC STOPPED the company removing the Captains loyalty bonus as well! All that could be negotiated, when so many begrudged the 1%. It was a bit shortsighted.... 1% deduction for a 5% bonus???
The CC only agreed to evaluate a replacement for the bonus, and would only agree if no members lost money on the deal.
The weeks leave was GONE before any negotiations, and the CC got the weeks GDO's(what a mess, but Ive just had mine!) to TRY and replace it. Without BALPA that wouldnt have happened.

The CC spend too much time holding 'fingers in the dyke' to stop the leaks... but they need more 'fingers' before we can seriously start refilling...........

[Rick Binson]

Remember for a TRSS FO on £35k basic after tax relief the monthly amount is just over £11.

So why not give it a go? :ok:

If the payrise is over 0.5% then your membership will have paid for itself. :ok:

[Basic T]

Norman Stanley Fletcher,

I agree with you. As I stated in my previous post, those are the things that the CC should be focusing on.

I have decided not to resign just yet but will stay and give the CC another chance to get the priorities right in september.

Good luck CC.

[Ice Man]

Norman Stanley Fletcher,

I also agree with your comments.

We should all be encouraging our colleagues to join BALPA in the run up to the pay negotiations. We all know what the CC in Virgin achieved with over 90% membership.

With the reduction in contributions for new members and tax savings, it's a small price to pay.

[You Gimboid]

It's easy to say that TRSS guys shouldn't have "signed on the dotted line" but put yourself in their shoes. If it's the only deal being offered it doesn't leave you much room for manouvre does it?

I recently signed on the dotted line with BA. What was once the industry leader in terms of salary, is now offering a pay/pension deal that existing pilots would consider derisory, even though BA has a Balpa membership in the 90%s.

I think its clear that we should remember that BALPA is merely an umbrella organisation - it is the individual company CCs who are doing the negotiating. And who is the CC? Normal line pilots like you and me. They will be seeking the best available deals for their members using the best available deterrent. Neither BA nor EasyJet CC's will be jeopardising their existing pilots welfare for the sake of new joiners - neither will existing pilots be happy to go on strike for their more junior newbies. And if the eJ CC can't offer a credible deterrent, then there isn't much they can negotiate for, and new joiners will be lowest priority.

Better the new guys cop the costcutting than the rest of us, eh? But you start down that road and you will inevitably create a situation ripe for divide and conquer. When the company offers a nice sweet deal for junior FOs and it involves trading off the loss of loyalty bonus, I wonder how much support the bonus will actually get?

Unfortunately, management are better at playing this game than we are. And they are getting us right where they want us.

In short - if you are in eJ and you want to have a decent job - join up or be ready to take the consequences!