Condor/TCX,Hands across the ocean!

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

Seems Condor aranged a little mid pond rendezvous with his buddy on the crossing last week. Popped up to take a snap and wave hello.Unfortunately his mate was 100 miles ahead and the actual a/c above(TCX 75) had to react to a TCAS RA .TCX not over chuffed by interuption to crossword and much squirming on HF from the Germans.
What's the German for Tea and biscuits?:uhoh:

[Avman]

Ooops! :O

Mis(visual)ident due to similar liveries. I actually find it quite amusing, but I guess some won't. I fancy it might be a little more than tea & biscuits for the poor guys.

[Munkeh]

I overheard this "discussion" on 121.5. The aircraft that was approached from beneath said that the offending aircraft was indicating only 300 feet below. What amazed us was the way the offending aircraft (not sure what the callsign was) seemed to think it was OK as he had good comms with the aircraft he thought he was approaching. Can you imagine being in the cruise at about 40 West when some plonker climbs to within 300 feet of you to take a photo? And then he says "I'm sorry but don't worry, I thought you were someone else and I have good comms with him!". Absolutely amazing!

[catchup]

What's the German for Tea and biscuits?

Very similar!

Invitation for a coffee (no biscuits:( )

"Kaffee trinken"


regards

catchup
whodoesn'tlikecoffee

[RatherBeFlying]

Eine grosse Zigare rauchen

[CODECO Monkey]

24/06/05 - Condor 062 mis-identified TCX032K as Condor 050.

Other than that, Munkeh's post pretty much covers it all...DFDR cards on both sides pulled and currently under investigation.

CM

[Freeway]

Sounds like the Condor 62, if events prove to be correct, failed to maintain his oceanic clearance, willfully disregarded his oceanic clearance, resulting in actual loss of separation and therefore endangering his aircraft and other aircraft most notably the TCX 32K in the process.
If these allegations prove correct, I would think its a bit more than tea and biscuits in the CP office and more like a court appearance.

[20driver]

Who has jurisdiction in the middle of the Atlantic?
Both planes were German. - It seems the blame is with the Condor pilot who presumably has a German license and will have to answer to German authorities. Can the Germans suspend a JAA permit?

What would happen say if it was a say a German plane and a Singapore plane got bumped (Just picking examples of countries - no slight intended) and people were killed. Where would a criminal trial get held? What about civil? I could see some interesting legal gymnastics here.

[Turbine1]

20Driver

Boths planes were not German.
TCX are operated by Thomas Cook Uk whilst Condor are Thomas Cook AG the german arm of the Thomas Cook brand.

2 Different airlines sonny.

and yes the germans have the authority to pull a JAA licence.

tea and jaffa cakes me thinks

[CosmosSchwartz]

Who has jurisdiction in the middle of the Atlantic?

East of 30w UK CAA, west of 30w Transport Canada I would have thought.

[20driver]

Ok, say they were west of 30 - can transport canada suspend or sanction a JAA permit holder?

[M609]

I belive not, but I'm sure a call to the Germans will fix things. (Because they can......)

[zed3]

Surely it's the ICAO Rules of the Air doc. which is involved here and the signiatories thereof . So who makes the first move ? I imagine Dr Condor is feeling pretty sorry for himself now , poor sod .

[CODECO Monkey]

Incident took place at 35W if that helps anyone? Transport Canada ARE aware (full report passed to Gander Control at the time).

[RAT 5]

Blame it on the digital camera makers. When are they going to introduce 20x zoom to prevent this sort of thing happening?

[javelin]

Hey, great photo ..............let me have your email address and I'll send it.

Almost as bad as the Spams asking for ride reports !

[catchup]

Both pilots suspended.

regards

[Sedbergh]

The story is all across the Daily Mail this morning guys, and PPRune mentioned too.

Only goes to show, you have to watch what you write on forums

[wheelbarrow]

Homer Simpson's Lovechild

Nice work to help get us in the press.

Especially as you are a current pilot in TCX, with some influence over what gets discussed at meetings if you know what I mean.

This makes the whole Thomas Cook brand look gash.

[RevMan2]

So we just cover it up, or what?

A reminder: failed to maintain his oceanic clearance, willfully disregarded his oceanic clearance, resulting in actual loss of separation and therefore endangering his aircraft and other aircraft

Yes, this does impact the brand and yes, it should bl**dy well impact the brand.
We're selling safe transportation - nothing more and nothing less. If you have hoons fooling around up there, the "safe" rapidly disappears as a selling point.

[tyne]

So, hacks get shot down for making things up, and people complain when they actually credit a source.

I don't understand.

Dan

[Bengerman]

This is the sort of immature and foolish clowning that brings this profession into disrepute with the travelling public.

There is little or no escape from the attantion of the media and they need no excuse to start banging on about "YOUR LIVES IN THEIR HANDS".

The idiot who did this needs attention from a wire brush!

********!

[Nikko]

and the moral is.......
watch out for the hun in your 6 o'clock low!!!!!

[A380HS]

An investigation has begun into how a German passenger plane came within 600ft of a UK holiday airliner after diverting off its authorised path.

Boeing 757
The mid-air incident is being investigated

The captain of the Thomas Cook Boeing 757 was forced to take avoidance action to get out of the way of the Boeing 767, which was operated by Germany-based Condor Airlines.

It is thought that the Condor captain had gone off his designated route to take a photo of a Condor colleague piloting his last operational flight.

But the Condor captain, with 234 passengers on board, had mistaken the Thomas Cook plane, carrying 187 passengers, for his friend's aircraft which was, in fact, 100 miles ahead.

The Condor captain and another pilot on the German plane have now been suspended while the investigation continues into the incident which happened at more than 30,000ft off the coast of Canada on June 24.

The Condor, flying from Frankfurt to Toronto, broke the strict aircraft separation rules by flying so close to the Thomas Cook airliner, whose pilot reported the incident to Canadian air traffic controllers and to the UK's Civil Aviation Authority.

The Thomas Cook plane was flying from Gatwick to Toronto.

A Thomas Cook spokesman said: "Our crew were flying on an agreed track when all of a sudden they got a warning on their TCAS collision avoidance system that another aircraft had entered their airspace.

"The captain carried out a textbook-style manoeuvre, taking the Thomas Cook aircraft out of danger and on to a higher flight path. Investigations continue by CAA and Gander Oceanic air traffic control as to why the Condor Boeing 767 entered the Thomas Cook Airlines UK flight path without authorisation."

A Condor spokesman said he could not comment on the suggestion that the Condor pilot wished to take a picture of a colleague in another Condor plane.

The spokesman added: "Two pilots have been suspended. The plane left its allowed airspace and was closer than normal to another aircraft.

"There were TCAS anti-collision systems in both planes and the Condor aircraft descended when TCAS gave a warning. At no time was there concrete danger of a collision."



Source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/12/uplane.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/07/12/ixportaltop.html

[gravity victim]

The Daily Mail has referred to the Thomas Cook skipper as a 'hero' for getting the hell out of the way - and there was not a primary school/housing estate around for miles. If journos continue to debase this word it will soon have no meaning at all. :yuk:

[eastern wiseguy]

take a photo of a Condor colleague piloting his last operational flight


Maybe more than ONE Condor pilot on his/her last flight for the company that day?

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

Shoot the messenger!!
In the immortal words of my famous yellow sibling, "I didn't do it!"
God forbid anything of factual interest to professional pilots might feature on the pprune.
If you clicked you're guilty.:rolleyes:

[JW411]

wheelbarrow:

Your attitude amazes me. Are you seriously suggesting that it's OK for the Thomas Cook organisation to organise happy get-togethers and illegal formation practices in the middle of the North Atlantic tracks?

The recalcitrants obviously figured that they could get away with this stunt at 35W whilst still outside radar cover (they would never have attempted it anywhere else).

Certainly, had I received an RA on a climbing aircraft at 35W I would have been on the horn very, very pronto to Gander on the HF (with NY, Shanwick, Santa Maria et al listening).

I would certainly not have waited to see who was coming up underneath me before taking action. Who in their right mind would ignore an RA and then say "Ah! It's OK. Fritz from the German Department has just come up to wave at our passengers"?

I'm afraid that this episode was probably heard by 80% of the traffic on the Atlantic at the time and expecting it to be swept under the carpet and be kept quiet is, at best, naive.

As to the professionalism issue; I have probably intercepted more aircraft than you have had hot dinners. To intercept the wrong aircraft in CAVOK conditions when the real target is 100 nms away is just laughable.

Didn't they even listen to and plot the position reports of their target? Even an imbecile would have realised that they simply could not catch up with someone 100 nms ahead on NATs!

All in all it was a childish idea carried out very badly and they really don't deserve to be called professionals.

If you want to have fun, leave the 300 punters behind and do it, after a very good briefing, in free air space.

PS. As an afterthought; I wonder if the the other Captain (who was on his last trip) was party to this plan? If he was not then I feel really sorry for him. I am not long from retiring and if some imbecile had done this on MY last flight then I would have got VERY, VERY, VERY upset!

If he WAS, then I hope he will enjoy his retirement with the thought that he has helped ruin the career of at least two pilots.

[rotornut]

"The incident was discussed at length on the airline industry gossip website, Professional Pilots' Rumour Network."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4675413.stm

[FASTWALKER]

Having flown with the British Captain of the 757 only several days after the event and heard straight from the horse's mouth what the British crew did and what their astonished thoughts were, I was somewhat surprised by the wealth of inaccuracies of the event in The Daily Mail.

The general gist was accurate but the details were nothing less than woeful.

Most Thomas Cook UK pilots knew of this incident many days ago and considering that this can only have a detrimental effect on the company's name with the general public, I was surprised to hear that any Thomas Cook pilots had initiated comments on the event... most unhelpful if the lazy bumbling Press are watching.

With a TCAS RA it is a black and white issue, NO grey areas, British crew responded to the whole 'escapade' 100% correctly, including filing the ASR and the reports to the relevant authorities. This was just too bizarre to not warrant full and complete reports.

And as for that Daily Mail reporter... just don't get me started.

[Self Loading Freight]

So, um... is everyone saying that pilots shouldn't talk to the press when the press is investigating a story, or that the press shouldn't investigate a story, or that.. er...

News is what someone else doesn't want you to know. In this case, I'm sure that Thomas Cook et al would have been really happy had the story never broken and there's a strong 'keep it in the family' feeling to dissuade employees from talking out of turn.

But by any other criteria, it's a valid story with all sorts of implications. There is a valid public interest in people knowing about it, if only because it might make the next Captain Fantastic think again before wilfully infringing flight rules. The press, for all its obvious faults, does have a right and a duty to report things that are in the public interest.

But we're (*) stuck. Report what the public in the back say, and we're accused of listening to the uninformed, the panic-stricken and the exaggerating. Talk to the companies, and we get bland, unctious PR-speak designed to put the very best, share-price protecting spin on things. Hang out on Pprune, and we're snooping evesdroppers incapable of properly understanding what's said and prone to taking the most sensationalist angle - and there's a deal of truth in that, especially with those publications which prefer rapid-fire, shallow sensationalism to accuracy.

But that's not all of them.

If you as a pilot -- or anyone involved professionally in aviation -- have a problem with the general level of reporting in the press, then there are things you can do. Find the journalists you think are doing the least bad job, and talk to them. Get your view in there when the hack's on their next story. If your company forbids you to talk to journalists (see the comment about share price above), then you have to decide whether its worth creatively breaking the rules -- an anonymous, well-informed note saying "If I were you, I'd ask the CEO about exactly what happened on flight 135 on Thursday when Sprogg's pet bat got loose on the flight deck and nibbled through the oxygen hose" gives us more than enough ammunition to make the PRs decloak, and a good hack (again, you have to find one!) will not go to press on an unsubstantiated rumour alone.

But the very best way to make reporting better is to establish a relationship with a journo and get your point of view heard. Isolating and belittling the press will not help.

R

(*) Although a self-confessed journo, I rarely report on aviation. God knows why I'm here... oh yes, it's because I love flying and find it fascinating. But let's not get into that...

[unwiseowl]

I don't understand how this should damage the reputation of TCX. Surely they were the innocent party and only Condor look bad?

[Maude Charlee]

I think everybody has overstated the awareness Joe Public has of the industry. If they really did turn away from particular airlines with perceived 'dodgy' reputations then I'm sure there would be many more empty seats on a number of carriers worldwide. I doubt there is any lasting harm done at all to the TCX reputation.

However, now the public can add reckless stunt pilot to their stereotype of us as randy old drunks. It's the pilots who have the rep, not the airlines.

[HowlingWind]

I don't understand how this should damage the reputation of TCX. Surely they were the innocent party and only Condor look bad?
Mr. Owl, I believe I understand your point that the TCX pilot was indeed just a victim of circumstance and mistaken identify. I have seen no fingers pointed (nor uplifted in an unflattering way) at that gentlemen in this thread.

However, the point has also been made that both Condor and TCX are part of the same parent organisation. Hence no matter what they do it might seem to some to all look a bit flummoxed. As Maude Charlee states, though, Joe Public may not really give a rat's arse if he can still get a cheap seat...

FWIW, the actions of one rogue pilot or two do not to me make a bad airline, but if it seems a general trend perhaps management needs to rethink some things... And to those who think these types of things should or even could remain undercover, dream on!

[reverserunlocked]

Cmon guys, Homer posted the story because he felt it to be of interest to us. Which it clearly is.

If no-one ever posts stuff like this in case the press get hold of it then this board's gonna get pretty darn dull. Don't shoot the messenger.

Interesting how the Daily Star reported of a Boeing 767 nearly colliding with an Airbus 757.

Good job a Boeing A330 wasn't anywhere near huh? Jeez.

[Airbubba]

These "retirement" flights have had more than their share of incidents over the years. A while back a Northwest 744 captain got in hot water for having a friend in a WWII bomber form up on a final revenue flight going into MSP. A retiring American Airlines captain got violated for making a pass over Spruce Creek airport in Florida with a 777 on a ferry flight. A UPS captain in Alaska thought he was Bob Hoover on his last flight and did an "arrival demonstration". The feds, understandably, were not amused.

And, a retiring Deltoid had some extra paperwork to fill out after landing:

08/23/1999 Preliminary Accident/Incident Data Record RECORD 2
****
A. Type: Incident Mid Air:N Missing:N Entry date: 08/23/1999
From: ATLANTA, GA, ATCT
B. Reg.No.: DAL11 M/M: B777 Desc: BOEING B-777
Activity: Business Phase: Taxi GA-A/C: Air Carrier
Descr: DELTA AIRLINES ACFT WAS TAXIING TO THE RAMP AND WAS BEING SPRAYED BY A FIRE TRUCK AS IT WAS THE CAPTAIN'S LAST FLIGHT WHEN THE ACFT RIGHT WING STRUCK THE BOOM ON THE FIRE TRUCK, THE ACFT SUSTAINED MINOR DAMAGE TO THE LEADING EDGE SLAT, NO INJURIES WERE REPORTED,
ATLANTA, GA.

___________________

Maybe I'll just call in sick for that last flight <g>...

[Hussar 54]

Not quite as bad, but flew back to CDG from LAX in January and during the pre-flight welcome, Capt informs us it's his last flight before retirement.

Nothing special during the flight, but on arrival, we then proceeded to do a 45 or 50 minute tour of CDG before arriving on stand.

Lots and lots of missed connections - including me who had to wait another four hours for my flight down to Marseilles.

[Diabolo]

MARSA - Millitary Assume Responsability for Aircraft Seperation,
is NATO procedures for formations flights or joinning Gas station with Civilian ATCO in there zone.

Formation flight requires some training and skills. Aerial Defence and interceptions are a different story..

Do not try this at home !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, but I can not feel sorry for such irresponsable people ..

STOP.

[Speedpig]

Just read about the Condor 747 pilot induced "near miss".
Is this for real?
Would the Captain of a B747, presumably a very highly experienced and qualified, as well as time served pilot to attain such a position, deliberately fly his craft to within 600ft of another passenger carrying aircraft so that he could take a photo' of his chum?
What was the F/O doing to allow this, or was it a conspiracy between the two?
Beggars belief:oh:

[Caslance]

Do Condor actually operate the B747 any more?

[fastjet2k]

According to reports it was a Condor Boeing 767 that popped up to say hello to a Thomas Cook Boeing 757 mistaking it for another Condor aircraft which he was trying to photograph. For more information there is a 3 page thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181023&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) on the whole issue!

Cheers, FJ2k

[fastjet2k]

The beeb did pretty well at reporting the story in the link above:

Planes are not supposed to come within 300m vertically, or 96km if they are at the same height.

No wonder we're short on airspace with restrictions like that :p (edited below as I was the one who knew too little and I stand corrected, you learn something new every day!)

[BALIX]

Actually, had the Beeb qualified the statement by explaining that aircraft over the Atlantic need to be separated by 300m vertically and 96km if at the same height, they wouldn't have been too far from the truth, though they could have used good old fashioned feet and nautical miles. Whilst vertical separation is 1000ft nearly everywhere, oceanic tracks are separated by 60nm. At the same height on the same track, aircraft have to be ten minutes apart which is 80 nm at 480kts.

[Speedpig]

Apologies.
The report I read stated B747.... although not a spotter, I should have known better.
Thinking about it, did Condor ever operate B747s?

[RAT 5]

"So, um... is everyone saying that pilots shouldn't talk to the press when the press is investigating a story, or that the press shouldn't investigate a story, or that.. er..."

SLF:

It is in every pilot's contract that no public statements shall be made, about that airline's operations, without management authoristation. This is true if there is an incident or not.

[threemiles]

yes, they did, until around 80 two 747-100

[fastjet2k]

BALIX

I was just discussing that with one of the instructors here, I hadn´t realised that was the case over the Atlantic so I retract previous statement and apologise for ignorance shown! Thankyou for pointing out my error...

FJ2k

[Captain104]

Did Condor operate 747's?

Yes. They operated 2 747-230( never-100) early seventies til beginning 80ies. We nicknamed them MAX(D-ABYH) and FRITZ(D-ABYF). My flight log indicates a Condor Reg D-ABYR additionally.

On 1/9/1983 after Korean Air Lines (HL7442) bought our "MAX" plane from Condor (former D-ABYH), a Soviet fighter aircraft shot down this aircraft by missile (during flying over Russian territory) into Okhotsk sea near Shakhalin Island and killed all people.

Cause of navigational error: mishandling of INS.

Around 1995 LH used 747-400 (D-ABTD) in Condor livery to operate into Taiwan.

Regards

[HowlingWind]

Oof. Have all companies gone so bad as to not even give a retiring employee a token (if tacky) farewell in the office, or a hired hotel room, so as to not inspire hijinks in the air?

Or would wot happened here just be "extracurricular" activity? :ooh:

No, I'm not a journo. Perish the thought.

They are, it appears, reading, so we all must tread with care...

[Flying Lawyer]

Just out of interest .....

Would those who feel very strongly about this incident, way out over the North Atlantic at 35W, have felt as strongly if the Condor pilot had identified the correct aircraft? (And by prior agreement between both crews.)

[broadreach]

FL,
That's the best question of all. Had it been the right 757, photoshoot accomplished and separation re-established, would anyone have been the wiser until - perhaps - weeks later? And then? A formal wrist-slap, some very suppressed grins and a deniable rumour? What a temptation it must have been and one wonders, how many readers of this thread have done the same or similar and now thought "there but for the grace etc."

This is not to belittle the dangers of heavy aircraft flying close to each other. My own background is marine where we have a history of gruesome accidents caused by enthusiasm overcoming caution. Nothing's ever heard of the cases where an up-close photo of "me on my final voyage" wasn't accompanied by a scrape.

[RevMan2]

Oh, so it's OK if we all just call up our mates in mid-Atlantic, get in close (only if they agree, of course), take a couple of pix and go back to our business of safe transportation?
Come to think of it - why do we need horizontal and vertical separation anyway. Why don't we all just do what we like? Nothing's going to happen.

Get real, people!

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. (But I'm bl99dy sure I'm not)

[rotornut]

It's quiz time!
What was behind a mid-air near miss over the Atlantic?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4682853.stm

[woodpecker]

A while ago there was a discussion on the chat frequency regarding "ride reports" at 35W.

One poor soul was in moderate turbulence at 37000'. He was the only one experiencing any turbulence and it was suggested to him that it may be the wake from the preceeding a/c at 38000 (I seem to remember that vortecies descend at 500'/min so if you are 2 mins behind the preceeding a thousand above .....).

The responce was amazing, the chap suggested he had tried descending to 36500' and climbing to 37500' to try for a smoother ride!

For the next few minutes all hell broke loose (quite rightly) with numerous other a/c trying to find out who this idiot was. Never did find out who it was.

[RevMan2]

Look - even if this fool hadn't triggered a TCAS RA on the other aircraft, he must have realised that if he was close enough to take a snap of his mate, so was everone else on both aircraft.

Given that the 6 Degrees of Separation theory says that the story had a 100% chance of getting back to a) the press or b) the above-mentioned fool's Chief Pilot via some circuitous means, we should seriously be asking ourselves if he wasn't a boiled egg short of a picnic in the first place.....

[Hunter58]

Provided he had a good teleobjective and that his friend was in his closer surroundings (meaning same track and 1000ft above or below, some NMs away) he actually might have gotten his picture (provided this was the intention) completely legally and safe with an offset track (well, you start doing your offset while you come 'close' to your buddy). There are quite some pictures on the 'regular suspect' websites like that.

But any other technique is not really recommendeable and I have complete comprehension should this chap (or actually these chaps) have to find another income provider.