Becomming an Engineer.

[shaymey01]

Good Evening

I was wondering how to become an aircraft maintenance tech. I have a technical background (electrical and mechanical) with lots of industrial experience. I just cant seem to get a start in the aviation buisness. Any advice greatly appreciated.

[KwikPhix]

It really depends on what part of the industry you want to go into. Light Aircaft/general aviation, then there is the Big jets, Flight line maintenance, Hangar Maintenance, If you have a sound industrial background electrical/Mechanical maybe somebody like British Aerospace would be worth a look, actually building the things then moving over to the maintenance side when you have a bit of A/C experience. have you had a look at www.flightinternational.com (http://www.flightinternational.com) and follow the links for jobs

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Hmm... I've seen worse

[afkap Le Pen]

After 23 years working for a UK major my advice would be..........DON'T

If you don't want to be treated like something you've stepped in, give it a wide birth.

Don't get me wrong, I love my job. BUT all the $HIT that goes with it is hard to take sometimes...And its never ending.

Our management generally are poor engineers who become poorer managers! And because they no longer work in the cold, hot, rain, snow, 30 feet in the air on a cherry picker in 40 kt winds, nights, weekends they think that they are better than us.......


Why dont you look into IM or IT or whatever....


BUT...IT IS BRILLIANT!

Love

Artist Formally Known As (Le) Pen :)

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Blah Blah Blah Allowable: Blah Blah Blah MEL: Blah Blah Blah Pen it off!

[get a bigger hammer]

Having worked in both Plant Engineering and Aircraft Maintenance I would have to say stay put.

I have found civil Aircraft maintenance to be slow, repetative and ultimately only challenging for all the wrong reasons.

Within Plant Engineering I found my skills appreciated and was when visiting customer sites always treated with politeness and respect. My skills where always being updated as we always had to keep ahead of the competition and I had more opportunity to move within the industry. Moving into aviation was a mistake for me and therefore
I could not recommend anyone entering aircraft maintenance.

Particularly now with the licensing turmoil.

[jetfueldrinker]

I also have to say it out loud. DON'T DO IT! I too love my job, but the lack of respect, threats by management to sell us off to the highest bidder, threats to put out heavy maintenance to 3rd world countries where the labour is cheaper, unless we accepted a shift system that is slowly killing us, lack of equipment to do our jobs properly, poorly equipped work environment leading to very real health and safety issues now make me realise that we are considered second class citizans. I once heard a director in our place describe aircraft maintenance as a 'Necessary financial evil.' So it just about wraps it up; we in aircraft maintenance are considered a drain on an airlines' finances, but without maintenance, aircraft cannot fly. But if the accountants could wrangle it so that they could dispence with maintenance, they would. Once again, don't do it.

[This message has been edited by jetfueldrinker (edited 28 May 2001).]

[HeliEng]

I started out about 4 years ago as a helicopter engineer, and a little while ago I decided NO MORE.

I had relatively little experience, but enough to be able to do a standard inspection alone, yet none of this was valued by 'Da Management' in attitude towards me or pay.

The general concencous of opinion at this end of the industry, is that the pay is $hit and you get treated like a moron! There were guys there who had a hell of a lot more experience than me, and were getting treated the same as me.

Example (True story): A guy in Helicopter maintenance 23 years old, been doing it since he was 16. (Not licenced) His mate, 23 years old, car mechanic, been doing it since he was 16 years old.
Who do you think gets the better take home pay????

The bl**dy car mechanic. Where is the logic in that? Car mechs are worse bodge artists than we are!!

At the end of the day it is down to you to make a decision, but my advice is stick to IT or something involving computers, if you are that way minded, you will get a hell of a lot more money and job satisfaction out of that than you will tinkering with aircraft!

'Some days you are the pigeon and some days you are the statue!'

[This message has been edited by HeliEng (edited 28 May 2001).]

[spannersatcx]

Been doing it for 23 years and wouldn't do anything else (that's 23 years not at the same place mind you) so go on give it a try. If you want some advice contact the ALAE (http://www.lae.mcmail.com)
Everyday is different the challenges are there and the pace is quick. That's Line Maintenance, the hangars can be a bit repetative but hey you have to start and finish somewhere. Treatment depends on where you work (as in any industry) I work for an airline (clue is in the name) and don't have too many gripes (we all moan about something) So I'd shout DO IT.

[Inspector Gadget]

I'll also give the job the thumbs up. I've been doing the job for 19 years and have enjoyed working in the industry. Yes it does have it's downside-unsociable and difficult working conditions, but these are far outweighed by the positive points such as travel and variety of work.When you go into any city and see what a monotonous existence most office workers have to endure, then I'll do this anyday.

[D V D A]

HeliEng, I couldn't believe you weren't Australian!

There is no money in light aircraft/helicopters whatsoever. Unless you are willing to live in a tent in remote areas for months at a time.

Airliners are a different story...

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D V D A
(sorry Trey)

[HeliEng]

D V D A....

Why do you say that????

Should I have been then???


'Some days you are the pigeon, MOST days you are the statue!!'

[prunehead]

my recomendations are DONT DO IT DONT DO IT DONT DO IT DONT DO IT DONT DO IT DONT DO IT DONT DO IT DONT DO IT DONT DO IT.

If you aren't sure, DONT DO IT.

I did it, and although I have reached pay and responsibility levels that I would have perhaps not done otherwise, it has been at the expense of my self estheem. The worst of what the posts above have state is true, and job have security is the tool that is held over us all. Once you enter the business, your skills specialise to the business, and are less than useless anywhere else. Once ensconsed, your employment can leave you but you can't leave your employment. Recent developments have seen opportunities in the industry diminish, legal peril increase, wages decrease, and constant pressure on governments to reduce the level of qualification required to enter (become a LAME) in answer to commercial pressure.

Oh Yes there is money to be had, but at what cost? Peace of mind is it. It is not a business that you can leave behind when the hangar doors are closed.

To echo remarks of others....IT is the go. At least there, a small mistake (like eroneous paperwork) won't mean potential (Federal) criminal cahrges!!


Here's to Licenced Aircraft Engineers, the least expensive legal advice that money can buy!!

[This message has been edited by prunehead (edited 30 May 2001).]

[Manual Start]

Been in the trenches over 20 years and still enjoy aircraft but disappointed with how the airline business has decayed. A recent editorial response in one of the trade magazines sums up the opinions of "most" of the professionals in Aircraft Maintenance.
Question= Would you recommend Aircraft Maintenance as a career for your son or daughter? Response= I would rather he or she become a piano player in a whore house.

As mentioned in a previous reply, how long does one put up with the lack of respect and second class citizen status before your morale suffers and you end up becoming brain dead! Sad and unfortunate truth. Remember, only the logo changes.

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Sometimes you get the chicken, most times you get the feathers

[D V D A]

HeliEng,
The helicopter maint. scenario you described sounds identical to my short foray into the chopper world.
I had friends that were stacking shelves at a local supermarket who were earning more than me and were getting spoken to with a lot more respect.

[Clever Bloke]

I've just spent 20 years in the industry and can no longer take the c**p that management hand out. You are seldom given any respect by the bosses, the working hours disrupt your family and social life and for the majority of the time you only do mind blowing boring jobs. (The prima-donna's get the interesting jobs)
There are little or no promotion prospects, again it's the brown nose crew that get promoted.
I am leaving the Bad Attitude behind, throwing licences away to move to a job that pays about the same, is going to have so much variety it makes me want to cry and that also has a defined career path open to me should I wish to take it.

My advice is stay where you are, the grass is NOT greener over this side!

[spannersatcx]

Clever Bloke there's more to this business than BA, but you've also done what you said not to do by seeing if the grass is greener, I hope it is, it always is until you try to mow it! What have you moved into if you don't mind me asking?

[HeliEng]

I think that the grass is as green as you want it to be.

I personally have moved on from Engineering, and I found the grass to be very much greener. Not only financially but actually feeling satisfied with finishing tasks and completing projects, which I was not getting in engineering because I was being pushed from pillar to post all the time.

I think at the end of the day if you don't try you don't know, and the general concensous in DON'T even bother trying!!!

[D V D A]

Out of all the people I went to school with I am yet to find anyone who I envy in terms of occupation and workplace.
They all went onto Uni etc. and they complain about their jobs so much and the money they earn isn't as good.
It doesn't make me happy to hear them complain, but I know that there is worse than this job. I'm talking about airline work though, not bug smashers.

[This message has been edited by D V D A (edited 02 June 2001).]

[146-fixer]

Been in the industy 15 years,top apprenticeship(best thing that ever happened to me),stoped building aeroplanes, started to work for airlines and things went down hill.I've got every license I can except Avionics(no doubt the CAA at sum point will make me get that one) which for me has been very hard work without much support from the industry.Now after all the work JAR 66 comes a long and my licenses are joke,Now I getting away from the point.
Mate dont do it.You will be treated like a C#*t by everyone and his dog,flight crew,cabin crew,CAA,management and the fare paying passengers,because you haven't saved there lives by grounding the aircraft you have just made them late for there holiday or bussiness meeting.Working conditions are hard.If you work line maintenance you will be out in the wind,rain,snow,night and day.Health and safety go out the window both in the Hanger and on the line.I'm in my early thirties and I'm starting to feel the strain of the job both physicaly and mentally.Working shift is one of the plus points but that does take it toll on relationshops.As for the job being differant every day,no not really.Just another broken aeroplane to fix.
So why dont I get out,because I have bills to pay.To do something else I would have to take a pay drop or retrain because my licenses dont mean shag all out side this industry.
To sum up I would not let my kids become an aircraft engineer.So once again dont do it.

[spannersatcx]

I think I must be one of the lucky ones, as we are treated with respect, the decisions I (we) make are accepted even if it does mean a delay (must be justified). Regarding Health and Safety, that is everyones responsibility, if you see something that contravenes H&S then it is your duty to report it to the local H&S rep. After all it is yours and your collegues welfare that is at stake.
Yes we work outside in the wind and the rain, then again so do many other people with less interesting and probably less paid jobs.
It could be worse you could be doing your 5th mot of the day or fitting the umpteenth tyre at kwikfit.
Sometimes you have to majke sacrafices to get ahead or do what you want, so rather than moaning about do something about it, it's your life!

[D V D A]

Tonight I was doing a Horiz. Stabiliser/elevator inspection on a 747-400 (C-check). The aircraft is docked so it's readily accessible. It's relatively clean and I found some cool defects which mean that it will be a better plane when it flies away because of me.
I get paid (heaps more than a motor meachanic) well enough that I can drive a nice car and live in a nice place. There's other shifts that work when I'm not there so I don't have to think about it while I'm away (how many jobs have this?)
And I get cheap airfares which means I only pay 10% of the fare to anywhere in the world.
This profession may not be perfect but it's been good to me.
(I know I know...aerosexual..yeah yeah)

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D V D A
(sorry Trey)

[prunehead]

DVDA

I don't want to sound like a quer or nuffin, but can I have YOUR job??


Only those who have seen ORGAZMO will understand that joke. For those who havn't seen ORGAZMO, go straight to your video store and get it out and watch it TIGHT NOW.

[jetfueldrinker]

With regard to staff benifits, not everyone in aviation maintenance gets these. I do, but then I regard myself as one of the lucky few who do. But if my employers could do it, they wouild remove this 'costly privilidge' and worry about lower staff morale later on. Remember that privilidges can be removed and they don't keep a roof over your head.

Just as a matter of interest, do any engineers from purely 3rd party maintenance organisations who subscribe to Pprune get any sort of reduction on air fares? When I had an interview with what became FLS, there were none to be had, but this was 1988! Have things changed there with regard to staff travel?

[PinPusher]

Been in the civvie side of the industry for 12 years and have loved every minute of it!
So the management sometimes have total brain f...s - that happens everywhere!

So you sometimes have to work out in s... weather and the dark. So do plenty other of people! What about the times when the sun is splitting the tarmac. Ooops, forgotten about them?

So you sometimes don't get the respect you think you deserve. Go ask doctors, nurses, policemen, firemen, waiters/waitresses, bar staff, baggage handlers, ground handlers, check-in staff, etc.... how much respect they get from US!

So you think the money is not good enough. Well, it never is, is it. For me I earn more than enough and am well chuffed with what I get. Take a look at the AirMech salary survey and ask yourself if the money is that bad compared to other professions.

So you don't get think jobs are secure enough. What are the stats? 23% shortage of avionics LAME's and 15% shortage of mechanical LAME's - something like that. That sounds like pretty good job prospects to me.

So they've changed the licencing system. How long have we known it was going to happen? Only three sure things in life - nurses, death and change! Deal with it!

So you don't get any satisfaction out of your work. Personally I get a buzz every time I fix a tricky wee snag or fix a defect during a turn-round and get it away on time.

Mate, if I had my time again I wouldn't change a thing. If you are into aircraft and are interested in the job - DO IT! There IS job security. There IS good money to be made. There IS self satisfaction to be had doing it. There IS a fun to be had.

EVERY job has its down sides but I reckon you will find they are pretty much the same wherever you go to work.

The money is good, the perks are good if you get into a good airline and you get to lech at pretty girls getting off the charters from Ibiza and the like wearing close to nothing on a cold night.

[get a bigger hammer]

Some of the replies given in this subject show exactly why one should not enter the industry.

However, to be able to contribute I feel that experience in other areas in "industry" is required. Working 23 years in the aviation industry and being happy with your lot can make one as jaded as someone whos only been in it 6 months and finds it all a**e.

Its one thing being experienced and satisfied with your lot. But that can also translate as old and trapped with deminishing opportunities to move on. To move on does not mean to transfer your efforts to another company within the industry. thats just the same job with a few different faces and different pay scales.

Moving on is gaining experience and credit in whatever you do in life. Taking that and any qualifications gained (qualifications, not licences) and puting them to use in a different environment.

In my eyes engineering is more than reading manuals and jocards. Engineering also involves creative problem solving and a need to improve. This is what is wrong within the industry in as much as we are not provided, on the whole, the opportunity to engineer (why in my eyes our job title is wrong).

I've not got long until I've finished another set of qualifications that will allow me to do just that. Another set of qualifications that have broadened my job opportunities not set me down the tunnel following a pin prick of light called retirement.

So again don't do it. If the sum of your ambitions is to glance at the occasional half errect nipple coming home of a charter flight at 3 in the morning. Or be stuck on a bliding hot pan in some god forsaken expanse of concrete with no assistance watching the crew wander of to air conditioning and a nights sleep fine, join it.

If you want to engineer and expand your horizons don't.

[PinPusher]

Former aircraft engineer known as Get a Bigger Hammer, I wasn't going to reply to the above, but.....

Moving on and growing doesn't necessarily mean you have to move from one profession to the next. New skills learned and qualifications gained (qualifications not licences) can just as easily be used to make you better, more interested and more satisfied in what you are doing now (I've done it as well). If you enjoy working on aircraft why go and design vacuum cleaners, fix computers or write software? If you really want to, you can grow in this job as much as in other walks of life.

I've worked for big airlines and small airlines. I've even worked in the family business (retail). There are loads of other jobs in the airlines that you can "grow" into other than spinning a spanner or pouring a can of oil. Be what you want to be, go where you want to go.

I certainly don't feel I have dimimishing opportunities or going down a tunnel following a pin prick of light called retirement. I've had the chance to design and redesign mods, design and manufacture test equipment, plan maintenance inputs, run maintenance inputs, be a company rep, be the voice on the end of the phone when things are turning to rat-sh.. down route, liase with manufacturers and the CAA, write engineering and quality procedures and loads more. I'm just an AMEL holder working on Mr Boeings produce, on the tools.

I agree with you, engineering is more than reading manuals and jobcards. It's also more than kicking tyres and pouring a can of oil. Ever fixed a snag that wasn't in the FIM or Trouble-shooting Manual (if you have such a luxury) and has taken three days? Didn't that use any of your creative juices? Ever been given an SB to do that is a load of bollocks and you have had to go back to the manufacturer and say "That's a load of bollocks. If we are going to this we need to do it this way." and they have come back and said "Yeah, you're right. Do it that way and we will re-write it." Or have you ever found the same problem on more than one occasion and said "If we do this .... we won't get this problem so often" and somebody has gone and done it that way? Isn't all the above creative problem solving and improving? The day this job stops having its problems to solve (engineering wise, that is) is the day I, like you, will give it up and find something that is more rewarding for me.

Don't assume the chance of a glance at the occasional half errect nipple is the sum of my ambitions - as I said that's a pert, sorry, perk. And I doubt that is the sum of Shaymey's ambitions either or he wouldn't be asking for the sage advice of so many wise men and women.

I'm sure I speak for all your ex-colleagues in aircraft engineering in wishing you every success, happiness and fulfilment in your new career.

And Shaymey, remember, it is those with the biggest axes to grind that shout the loudest.

[Mice]

I have been in the industry for 33 years, and have seen the job and terms decline in the industry over that time. Like most others here, I would not advise my children to become an engineer. Maybe a pilot? If we had kept some relationship to pilots conditions/pay then maybe things would be different. I had very good training in my apprenticeship, for which I am grateful, however that same level of expertise does not exist with the same company in this day and age.

I have had a reasonable life from the industry, but not everyone wants to work in the countries and situations I have either. It is not very marriage freindly. Only a very few have the good type of job that spannersatcx has, most of the rest just exist to pay the bills from month to month. We joke about AIDS (Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome) but it exists in large amounts.
Go with IT!!!

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When all else fails, read the manual!

[Dragonspet]

If you are truely interested in aircraft ,I mean to the point that one cannot fly overhead without you looking up and maveling at the sheer dynamics of a 120,000 lb. peice of machinery soaring through the air under its own power. It will be the most rewarding decision you have ever made. The b---sh-t comes with any job in every field, we just have to deal with it. Currently it is a wide open field with endless possibilities, especially for a single person with the freedom to travel. Run with it, you will learn something new everyday.

[Clever Bloke]

I know I contradicted myself in my last post.I Know the grass isn't always greener and I am moving to new pastures.

I have an advantage over many people. I didn't leave school and join an airline and still work for the same airline!

I've had some 20 years civil (2 airlines, one maintenance company), 12 years RAF and about a year in a factory on plant maintenance.

As you can see, I've looked at a lot of grass, some of it was scourched, some was as green as it could be.

BUT...where I'm currently working there is no grass. It's been sold off as turf. It's just time for me to move on. If I was left to do my job I'd probably stay, it's just the cr*p that goes with the job.

[NRG]

DON'T DO IT ..DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT....I'VE BEEN IN LINE MAINTENANCE FOR 22 YEARS AND HAVE WORKED MY WAY WITHOUT ANY COURSES OR HELP UP TO FULL B1 LEVEL WHICH TOOK ME MANY YEARS OF BLOOD SWEAT AND TEARS OF STUDY. THE RESPONSIBILITY I HAVE IS HUGE AND THE WORKING CONDITIONS I HAVE TO PUT UP WITH ARE SIMPLY NOT REFLECTED IN THE PAY I RECEIVE.EG MY WIFE STARTED WORK PART TIME IN AN OFFICE,ONE YEAR AGO (NO QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED FOR THE JOB) AND NO GREAT RESPONSIBILITY AND RECEIVES TWO THIRDS OF MY HOURLY RATE AND GREATER RESPECT AND PRESTIGE.

[146-fixer]

I havent got an axe to grind.I also do my best to treat everyone with respect,no matter who they are or whot they do.Because I know whot its like to be treated with no respect and be talked down to, just because of the job you do.

[maxrevs]

I reckon that if I stay in the industry another ten years, then I'll be earning about the same as I did fifteen years ago!
I've been lucky, same wife for 32 years, raised two good kids, kept my licence and endorsements since 1970, but had it decimated to the extent that it's only good for getting me in over my head with responsibility! When I first earned my licence, an Engineer was looked upon with a certain amount of respect, but that has been somehow diminished. Aviation was once described as "great hobby, but a lousy way to make a living". I'm pleased that I chose it as a career way back when, but I'm sad to state that I would have to think twice, if I had to do it all again, knowing what I do know now. I'm not bitchin - just tired!
Regards, Max

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When I push the panic button, the breaker pops!

[D V D A]

NRG, no offense or insult intended but as you said, your wife sits in an office.
My "office" is a $200 million jet.
If you're an "avo-head" like me this is much more fun.

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D V D A
(sorry Trey)

[HiSpeedTape]

I've been in the business for 23 years, give or take a few years when I was forced to leave and do something else (Software Development for Apple Computer) which involved working "9 to 5" in an office and seeing the same old faces in the same old traffic jams every morning and every evening. I did'nt stick that for long. I came straight back and am still working in the wind, rain, snow and sunshine and enjoy every minute. Pinpusher's posts reflect exactly how it is and the challenges and rewards are there everyday if you look for them. We get plenty of respect from pilots and cabin crew but self respect is something that you generate yourself. As for Jetfueldrinkers question about concessions. Yes, we get concessions offered from many of our customers. I love the job that I do. It pays well enough in comparison to many other jobs and better than a lot of piloting jobs. I can afford a nice new car for myself and the missus, a nice house in the country, holidays in nice places etc.. that many of my friends who are pilots cannot because they are saddled with huge loans that they had to take out for their training and are still repaying!

[This message has been edited by HiSpeedTape (edited 10 June 2001).]

[D V D A]

My first choice was to be a pilot but my family background is not wealthy enough to pay for the costs and by the time I started earning money as an engineer I'd seen a lot of middle-aged pilots wondering around hangars scavenging for work and being treated like sh*t.
I'm happy being a fix-it-guy.


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D V D A
(sorry Trey)