RAF Northolt, never again

[inbalance]

I have flown 3 Passengers into RAF Northolt with a King Air Yesterday.
The flight was uneventful, but after the arrival our Passengers had to wait 20 Minutes for their Taxi. We talked to handling about the Taxi the day before on the phone and we informed them 30 Minutes before our arrival via the radio, and again asked them to make sure that the taxi will be in place at the time of our arrival.

Travelling between European Countries we don´t need a Passport, the German ID Card is enough. We have been a hundred times to Biggin Hill and the customs always found it OK that our Passengers only had their ID Cards with them.
Not at Northolt.
Our Passengers left the airfield for their business without any problems, but on their way back Northolt Security didn´t let them access the Airfield without a Passport.
They didn´t even wanted to talk with us about the problem. It is like it is, no Passport - no access.
The books doesn´t say anything about having a Passport with you at Northolt, nor the Handling Agent told us in advance.

So we took the decision to fly to Biggin Hill and meet our Passengers there.
The Weather was fine and to save time we planned to fly VFR and didn´t make a flightplan.
We got our start up, taxied to the active. After 10 Minutes of waiting for the Take Off Clearance, we where told by ATC that we have to taxi back to the Ramp and talk to operations first.
We taxied back and tried to talk to handling about the radio, but they also told us, that we have to shut down the engines and see the operation Manager at his office.

We went to the office, I was really angry at that time. At the Operation Office they let us wait 3 Minutes and then we where told that we could fly to Beggin now.

During the flight to Biggin Hill, ATC did a great Job to vector us true the busy London Airspace to a 5 Miles final at Biggin. The flight took us 10 Minutes only.
Our Passengers needed 3,5 hours by taxi from Northolt to Biggin Hill.

I am still angry about that. The last time I have seen such a behaviour was 20 years ago in Russia.

I have talked to the German border police about that and they told me that there is a binational agreement between Germany and all European countries that the German ID is sufficient to travel to that countries and to identify yourself.

It was my first flight to Northolt and they can be sure that it also has been the last time for me.
Is there an official address, where I can send a letter to complain about that?


Inbalance

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

The German ID card is sufficient to allow travel within the "Schengen" coutries- ie, those countries which are signatories to the Schengen agreement. Schengen Agreement (http://www.skillclear.co.uk/schengen.asp)
The UK is not a signatory to this agreement. Furthermore, the German border police do not have the authority to decide what forms of identification is acceptable outside Germany! Perhaps you should have asked the British immigration service...

[Red Four]

Perhaps the problem is that Northolt is a R.A.F. station, and also handles very many Government and VVIP flights.

Obviously the security has to be ultra -stringent at such a site.

But the handling company should have told you of the unique requirements of the airfield.

[inbalance]

The schengen countries have signed the schengen agreement. With the other european counries there are binational agreements about that. Binational means that both countries have signed the agreement. Germany and Great Britain both signed it.
The Imigration at Biggin Hill where always happy with the ID´s and so was the imigration officer at Northolt at the arrival.

This is a link to the German ministry of foreign affairs, it is in german only, but it says that a Passport or a valid ID (Personalausweis) is sufficient to travel to Great Britain:
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/www/de/laenderinfos/laender/download/189/78.pdf

I couldn´t find a britisch governmental site, but I found something on the site of the Oxford Brookes University:

"Documents you need for immigration

Listed below are the documents you will need to show on your arrival in Britain.
European Economic Area (EEA)* Nationals

* Valid Passport or National Identity Card
* You may also be asked to provide evidence that you have been accepted on to a course and that you have enough money to support yourself for the duration of your course

*EEA countries are: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and the UK."


At least I found an official British website:
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/UKVisasDoINeedAVisa?url=%2Fservlet%2FFront%3Fpagename%3DOpen Market%2FXcelerate%2FShowPage%26c%3DPage%26cid%3D10069771499 62&purpose=Business+Visit&nationality=Germany&location=Germany
Inbalance

[Avman]

This is not an immigration issue. I'm thinking that the operators of the airport could be perfectly justified in making their own rules regarding access to their property. If that means a valid passport and nothing else will do, so be it. Of course, they should make this clear from the outset. I fear though, that this was most probably the result of poor training of security staff coupled with the ever-increasing job's worth attitude we see by these people today.

[01475]

Has something changed very recently? I thought everyone needed a passport to come to the UK?

[Lucky Strike]

Nearly correct..

Everyone who needs a passport comes to the UK

[Someone Else]

ID cards have always been acceptable for travel within the EU. The Uk used to issue "British vistors passport at Post Offices for the purpose but stopped doing so some time ago.

From - http://europa.eu.int/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/guides/travelling/index.html#12709_10

Special circumstances pertaining to the United Kingdom and Ireland

EU citizens travelling from a Schengen State to the United Kingdom or Ireland or vice versa may be subjected to checks. However, such checks may not go beyond the provisions of Community legislation in force. These borders may therefore be crossed simply upon production of a valid identity card or passport. In principle, no question may be asked as to the purpose of your journey, your means of subsistence, etc.

Passport checks in the case of members of your family who are not nationals of a Member State of the European Union may, where applicable, be aimed at establishing whether a visa has been issued and their status as a member of the family of a national of an EU Member State, i.e. the status that carries with it the right to enter the territory in question.

On the other hand, under the terms of the common travel area, there are in principle no longer any checks on persons travelling between the United Kingdom and Ireland.

[ebenezer]

Inbalance - sorry to hear of your experiences at RAF Northolt.

In future, can I suggest that you fly your passengers into Luton if they're destined for north or northwest London, into Biggin if they're going to south London, Farnborough if they're going to southwest London, or into London City if they're going to the City.

At Luton they'd be handled by a professional organisation well used to dealing with VIPs and CIPs - either Signature Flight Support or Harrods Business Aviation.

At Farnborough, TAG Aviation are similarly expert.

And at City, there is City's own corporate aviation handling agent.

However, if you require unrestricted H24 availability, then Luton's your only choice.

Leave Northolt to the military...

;)

[Shagster]

The requirement for you and your passengers to possess passports for entry into RAF Northolt is printed in bold at the bottom of your PPR acceptance notification.

This requirement has nothing to do with entry into the UK. It is to allow entry onto RAF Northolt, a military base. Our military role requires stringent security. Avman's comments are ill-informed. Our securuty staff are very well trained, they have to be. Most of them have served recently in Basra, Bahgdad, and Afghanistan. The job's worths he refers to know the consequences of loose security, two personnel from this unit were seriously wounded at Christmas.

PSM will book a taxi on your behalf if requested. However they have no control over whether the taxi is late or fails to turn up. The majority of users arrange transport themselves through their own Ops.

Ebenezer!...Northolt to London 15 mins (if you can get on the base and the taxi turns up:hmm: ). Luton\'s fine...if your business is in Stevenage or Bedford:D .

[ebenezer]

Luton's fine...if your business is in Stevenage or Bedford - or if you need twenty-four-hour availability, or the weather's so bad that you need Cat. 3 to land, or...

Let's not fight over it: when Heathrow gets the go-ahead for its new north runway, Northolt will close anyway; and the bizjets will all go elsewhere (Biggin/Farnborough/Luton), whilst the military hardware (what's left of it after the Treasury has finished...) will probably go back to Benson.

EGWU = RIP

:hmm:

[Shagster]

Touche mon ami:ok:

[Pierre Argh]

surely not a cse of the RAF getting revenge for all those refused flights on RYR when serviceman passengers turned up with their RAF ID Cards only ot be turned away....?

Actually I agree this is an access to the airport issue, not an access to the country matter... read the small print before confirming.

[Pie Man]

From the AIS NOTAM page:

AGA : FROM 05/04/26 16:07 TO 05/09/26 12:00 EST U0488/05
E)THE ONLY INDENTIFICATION ACCEPTED FOR CIVIL CREW AND PASSENGERS TO
GAIN ENTRY TO RAF NORTHOLT WILL BE:
INTERNAL FLIGHTS, A UK PHOTO DRIVING LICENCE OR VALID PASSPORT.
INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS, A VALID PASSPORT.
FAILURE TO COMPLY WILL RESULT IN PERSONNEL BEING DENIED ACCESS.

think that covers this instance.

PM

[MarkD]

there are in principle no longer any checks on persons travelling between the United Kingdom and Ireland.

except on air routes from UK to Ireland to screen out fugees - ironically it used to be the other way round except looking for provos.

[inbalance]

I just checked the NOTAMS again and I think I have to blame german AIS for the whole trouble, because our NOTAMS said:

EGWU

BULLETIN AERODROME-TYPE ; PREPARED ON: 01.07.05 05:33
FLIGHT RULES : IFR/VFR
INCLUDED NOTAM : LAST 90 DAYS UP TO 01/07/06 05:33

------------ NORTHOLT AB

NO NOTAM

I just talked to the AIS officer and asked him about todays NOTAMS for Northolt and they still don´t have that one.

I just faxed it to him and he promised me to investigate why it is not in the system.

inbalance

[M609]

It does not show on the norwegian ais system eighter........

Pitty the UK ais system does not display the Q code the Notam is filed with, beacause if "B" is not included in the Q code, it will not show on a briefing. (Can't remember the title of the field, but it's often "NBO" in that field)

[Pie Man]

All very strange, it appears in the US system which is available on line
US Mil NOTAMS (https://www.notams.jcs.mil) and as metioned earlier in the UK system UK AIS site (http://www.ais.org.uk) which requires free registration.

Regards

PM

[inbalance]

The NOTAM Number is U 0488/05
I am in contakt with the German AIS about that. They told me that a Series U Notam is a millitary NOTAM , which isn´t transmitted to civil AIS Units.
So NO civil Aircraft going to Northolt gets a sufficient NOTAM Briefing.
I wrote Northolt a Mail, asking for their Comment about that Problem, but they haven´t answered yet.