Advice, Can anyone out there help?

[Fretwanger]

Right this thread is going to be a bit long winded, but if I could ask you to have the patience to read and maybe reply to it, i would be very grateful.

Heres my story...

I'm currently at the age of 20.

My ambition in life has ALWAYS been to be a pilot, ever since I can remember I've wanted to be a pilot.

Now everything was looking good up until the age of 14, I was a clever pupil who never knew when to say never. Then as I hit year 10 my mum suffered from cancer, This happening I had to put my academic studies aside and look after the immediate priority. My mothers condition only got worse over the years and in the last year of school my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer.

As of a result of stress, a very hard home life and me being my parents carers 16 hours of the day. My grades suffered.

I left school with a mere 8 GCSEs all at C level.

My parents always wanted me to go to college so I took his on board and decided to go.

2 Weeks into my course during one of my Physics lessons, I received a telephone call informing my lecturer that my dad was rushed into hospital and I needed to go see him.

So i rushed over to the hospital only to be 3 minutes too late.
This weakening my mother even further placed a greater burden on both of our lives.
My mum lasted for another 8 months before passing away in her sleep one night.

At this time I was at the tender age of 17 (and about 3 months) with little or no hope of catching up on my college work, decided to go in for the exams never the less. I aced my computing tests at AS level but didn't do well in my Physics exam at all.

Luckily enough the local council let me keep my parents house for a further 6 months for me to find somewhere to live.
When september came I had moved 300 miles away from home to live with a distant brother who i barely knew and infact the first time i met him was at my dads death bed.
He took me under his wing and showed me the ways of life for the next year, letting me live with him for a year then eventually i found my own place back in my home town of Hartlepool.

I now own my own home and have a job in Barclays bank.

I have a BTEC HND in Popular Music
My 8 GCSEs
and an AS level in Computing.

Unfortunately over months and months of research my qualifications aren't suffice for anything.

I have no debt at all and am one of the most entusiastic people you will ever meet.

Anyway theres my story and thats the person i am.

Now heres the point

I am a civilian instructor at the ATC, (from which i was a Flt Sgt, when I was originally a cadet). And do a lot of voluntary work at my local Airport which I thoroughly enjoy.

Basically all you people that have somehow achieved your dream, did it with sheer determination and perseverance.

I have these skills but don't have a clue where next to turn. Please could you give me any information regarding raising funds to self sponsor my flight training.

And anyone who has borrowed the costs from anywhere, please could you inform me of the resources that are available.

And do my qualifications count for anything?
If they are not suffice could anybody recommend an alternative to gain qualifications other than full time university (this isn't possible because of work commitments; paying the mortgage and things).

Thanks for your time and look forward to your advice and replies (if any)

Thanks
Shaun

[willby]

Shaun,
I am not a pilot but my son has recently gained his fatpl and looking for his first flying job. As I have followed his training closely over the last two years I can maybe offer some advice. Hopefully you will get more.
Unfortunately, the difficulties you have encountered in your early years will be of little help when trying to obtain a loan to fund commercial flight training which will be very expensive.
The good news is that your qualifications are fine and your grades are not a problem if you are willing to work hard for the ATPL theory exams ( my son was/is a carpenter). Your chances of getting a fully sponsored scholarship from an airline are very slim . These are few nowadays and the competition for them is fierce.
In your case I would suggest the following:
1. Book an introductory flying lesson at your nearest flying school to see if you really like it.
2. If you do then before spending any more money on flying lessons apply for a class 1 medical check. Without passing this strict medical you would never be eligible to get into commercial flying.
3. Get your private licence (PPL) and fund it as you go.
4. When you have the PPL now you can commence study for the 14 theory exams . You can study for these at home (distance learning) so you can keep your job. This can take up to a year depending on how much study etc you can put into them.
5. Having got this far you are now ready to commence your commercial flight training. You will now be in a much better position to obtain a loan, having demonstrated your determination and having already made substantial progress in realising your ambitions.
Hope this post is of some help to you. You can always PM me for any further info.
Best Wishes
Willby

[hingey]

Shaun,

As Willby says, start flying. Even if it's once a month, start working towards your PPL. Have you looked into the sponsorship schemes around? They are very few, but one or two do exist. Check out Air Atlantique (http://www.airatlantique.co.uk/), who offer what I understand is first class training. Also, check out CTC, and by all means look into a bank loan.

Your involvement with ATC and your sheer determination despite your hardships are a clear example of your strengths, ones that any potential employer will look upon. See if you can take your voluntary contribution at the airport a little further, maybe get a job scrubbing aeroplanes or flying an ops desk. Stay involved, and by all means keep trying.

Best of luck to you,

[Cap Loko]

Shaun,

I don't know anything about aviation in England.
You seem really keen on aviation. Have you ever considered going to the USA? You could work your way up from working on the ramp towards a cpl etc. I know of several people who have done this and I can help you with an email adress of one of these persons if you like. This person is now going to fly a regional jet soon.
Quite some efford but realistic.

Anyway, all the best!

Loko

[willby]

Hi,
Hingey: Unfortunately to be eligible for the Air Atlantique sponsorship scheme you must first have a PPL + Class 1 medical.

Capt. Loco: To work in the USA as you suggest Shaun would need a green card.
Unless you have a skill which is in short supply, a green card will be difficult to obtain.
Regards
Willby

[Cap Loko]

Willby,

Yes you will need a green card but if you are willing to work hard and have can do attitude it will certainly be possible that the company will sponsor you.
It's all been done before and people are still doing it this way.

cheers

[Fretwanger]

Wow, I certainly didn't expect so many replies, I have looked into many options over the past few months.

Moving to America or indeed any other counrty is certainly a feesable option, I'm willing to relocate anywhere in the world to get this, but getting a Green Card (or in fact a Visa) as I've looked into before either requires you to have relatives in the country or as willby says I would need to be something special unfortunately Im merely a bank clerk by profession :( .

I have had 11 PPL lessons so far, I payed for a great deal of them with my yearly bonus which was quite hefty, and absolutely love flying and my instructor has mentioned I'm alright at it, had my first solo at 9 hours which was absolutely AWESOME. Coming into land completely on your own back was such an exhillerating feeling.

I have never looked into getting a medical but I'll certainly do that next, I'm not as fit as I was put on a bit of a belly over Christmas, but nothing a months hard training wont cure, Although I've never had the fitness of an athlete.
Any more details of whats required for the medical?

I think with scholarships/sponsorships you have to be some top gun who IS an athlete.

As far as bank loans go, who would I see in the bank, the manager?

As personal bankers (which i do by profession) don't handle these sort of queries and the closest thing Barclays do is a Career Development Loan (maximum of 12k). Which banks have facilities to do this sort of thing.

Right last thing I have looked into is to pay for it with ny own money but to do my license in South Africa. as fees are SOOOOO much cheaper. I Worked it out at 14.5k to get a frozen ATPL.

What are the resrictions of having a non JAA/CAA license and what tests/program would I need to do to convert it?

As far as it all goes i have 23k equity in my house and could sell it and walk out with about 27k profit, I am willing to do this in the near future providing all of this is possible.

Any Details/Comments.

Thanks for all of your time reading my previous post and the other 10 minutes you've taken to read this one :) If I ever meet any of you guys I'll certainly buy you a pint :)

Thanks

[willby]

Hi Fretwanger,
Well you are more advanced in your training than I originally thought.
Definitely the Class 1 medical should be your next objective.
You dont have to be an athlete to pass it though it is a very comprehensive check and costs about £400. In the UK I think you do this test at Gatwick Airport. The eye test etc is important but you dont have to have a fitness level more than the average citizen.
Re your house: my son had a half share in a house which he sold to avoid going too much into debt in the early part of training.
he also went to Florida to do his PPl and then returned home to study for his 14 theory exams.
You will have to get your PPl before you can take the theory exaMS and you will need to pass these exams before you do your CPL training.
here is a link to the CAA approved list of training organisations both in the UK and abroad ( USA and Spain etc)
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF
You will get better info re training in the other Wannabee Forum "Professional Pilot Training".
The moderator has a sticky at the top with lots of info on how to progress through the various stages of the training.
Regards
Willby
PS HSBC is the bank in the UK where some people get loans for flight training. There are lots of posts on the subject in the other forum. Do a search and you will get lots of info on the subject.

[smith]

FRETWANGER

I too last my father to cancer and it was this event that turned me to aviation. I always loved aircraft and aviation but always thought that you had to be an Old Etonian or ex RAF pilot to join the airlines. However after my father's death I realised that life is very short and that you should follow your dream.

As such I sold my house and bought an appartment and use the money I realised for my training.

I have also apllied to, and won two bursaries from the airleague educational trust (ALET), they are worth about £500-£800 approx, however they have just been granted for this year and you would need to apply next year. The web site is
http://www.airleague.co.uk/scholarships.html but its worth a go.

If you have £26k equity on your house I'm sure HSBC would take this as security against a large loan offered to you, but it would be best to aplly to a branch such as Oxford who know all about financing wannabe pilot's, I found the Glasgow branch very knowledgable about CDL's too and was offered a £60k loan against my house as security. I declined as I decided to go modular and the payments were pretty high. Anyway if you do get a loan against your house, remember your mortgage payments willstill have to be payed throughout your training.

Hope this has been useful and wish you all the best in the future.

[ATP_Al]

Full-blown airline sponsorships are very hard to come by these days, but as Smith said there is still much on offer from the Air League, GAPAN and now the Glen Stewart trust. Over the years I have received a GAPAN PPL scholarship and an Air League bursary and both have made a massive difference to me!

Unfortunately most of the closing dates for this year's awards have now passed but check out www.flyingscholarships.co.uk (http://www.flyingscholarships.co.uk), www.gapan.org (http://www.gapan.org) and www.airleague.co.uk (http://www.airleague.co.uk). However if you get your class one medical straight away you'll still be in time to apply for the JN Somers scholarship, which pays for a complete fATPL course!

Good luck!

Al

[Grass strip basher]

You may as well have a crack at CTC... you have nothing to lose except for a few hours filling in a form...

[Fretwanger]

Right, well after speaking to what seems to be every school, advisor and helper in the industry, this is what i've decided.

This decision was both fuelled by this forum and the people on it, there are equally a number of people wearing rose tinted glasses, as that they are people with their head screwed on, thankfully everybody who has replied to this post seems to be pretty clued up and well, has frankly been quite a lot of help, I seem to be getting realistic solutions and not ones like TAKE A 60K LOAN, AND FORGET ABOUT THE REPAYMENTS THATS WHAT I DID WHEN I WAS YOUR AGE. It really is great :D And I mean it, if I ever meet any of you guys I owe you all a Swift pint.

The last few weeks i have been thinking about going integrated, renting my house out to a friend and maybe relocating to another country, I cannot get a loan anywhere for the full amount, in a way this is good because now the heat has seemed to calm down, I have discovered what I really want to do, I wish to pursue the modular route and continue at my local flying school, this seems to be the best thing to do financially, I am going to apply for a CDL, which will start me off but whilst im doing my course I will still be able to work at Barclays full time which will cover the bills.

I was quoted 23,500 - 30,000 for a complete fATPL, depending how well I do. Its not as cushy as the integrated route but it has much less risks and seems to be more attractive.

I have decided to go for the CDL which will start me off with 8,000 pounds

from the owners reccomendation I should fly 1-2 times a week depending on weather and so on.
The school i propose to go to do this put £1000 in the kitty and get 10% free, which brings down the costs for flying.
so if i fly 6 times a month this will cost me round about 560 pounds.

I propose to tuck away in a savings account 450 pounds from my monthly wage to fund the rest of my training, this means.

if i dont touch the money in my savings account until my cdl money has ran out, then by that time I should have about 6300 pounds in that account, which by then I should have 84 hours, which should technically be my PPL, IMC and Night Rating.

The additional £6300 can go towards hour building (the school sells 50 hour blocks at ~£3000) so theres another 100 hours, then things like test fees and so on - ill have to worry about as they come along.

Before anyone asks about materials and things I've had a flight computer log book and the first 4 books for about a year now, so theres about 400 quid saved straight away oh and I also have my own headset.

I do already have £3500 in the bank for a rainy day but thats there for emergencies and i try not to touch that money as when you spend it you know something bad is gonna happen like your engine will blow up in your car or something.

Anyway, me being as naive as ever, would like a bit of feedback on my proposal as I'd like to know whether it makes sense or is just far to unrealistic for it to happen.

Now Bring on the medical!!!

[willby]

Hi Fretwanger,
Glad to hear that you have found the various posts to your original query helpful. You seem to have carefully considered your options, which for the most part I believe are very sensible.
However, you haven't mentioned the ATPL theory exams in your last post and my final piece of advice would be as follows:
Get the class 1 medical next.
Continue with your flying lessons till you obtain your PPL.
Enroll with an approved ground school and commence the distance learning programme for the 14 exams. This will cost approx£2500.
While you are studying for the exams dont do any serious hour building; just enough to keep your hand in.
When you have the exams in the bag then get cracking on the hour building and your flying skills will be sharp when you are ready to commence your commercial training.
Regards
Willby

[Fretwanger]

sorry haven't been able to use the computer for a few days, have been decorating the house, thank god thats over and done with.

anyway thanks for the advice willby, mint idea about the hour building, I think I will do as you say then by the time ive done my ATPL exams ill certainly have enough money to cover the costs of anything, as it'll mean another 4-5 grand, anyway I was declined for a CDL, so this is gonna halt my training for a while but im gonna crack on with my ppl and get saving so thanks for the advice, I have my 3rd lesson (1st in about a year) on saturday, lol should be a laugh, watch me bouncing across the skies as i cant control the plane lol.

Happy Flying, if you're ever in bishop auckland barclays branch im the one with the blonde hair lol, or if i ever meet you IRL i'll buy you a few drinks :D, especially Willby, Smith, Cap_Loco, ATP_Al and Hingey, without you guys I would have never re-ignited my passion for flying :D

Take Care


*RIP all the lost souls in the London G8 Massacre, may they and their families rest in peace for the rest of eternity.

[willby]

Hi Fretwinger,
Glad to have been of some assistance. Sorry to hear about the CDL loan but if you continue with the ppl followed by the theory exams, then you wont need to borrow for some time yet.
Hopefully by then other borrowing options, if necessary, will be available to you.
One last thing, dont forget to do that class 1 medical before you spend much more money on flight training. There have been many cases of people failing the medical after having already spent considerable sums on flight training!
Best of luck on Saturday and if I ever do get to Bishop Auckland I will call in for that pint.
Willby