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Iza_N_Junear
2nd Jul 2005, 03:08
Anyone heard anything or got any clues, regarding the 'major anouncement' supposedly to be made on Tues 5/7. Understand Sydney HM is to be shutdown and there may be up to 5000 layoffs QF wide (not all in HM), Lames/Ames to be told Brisbane, Avalon or theres the door. ????

Apophis
2nd Jul 2005, 06:47
avalons got to many people standing around doing nothing now.

the shaman
2nd Jul 2005, 08:44
something is going to happen betwen now and 14/7. Seebury and deloittes consultants are all over the place in ETOMS like a rash. There will be a big Manager re-shuffle (get ready for a few surprises) , My guess is no more D checks in SYD.... SA and C 's only..... and KC takes over Base Maint. then integrates HM / Base maint functions and resources.. this is what other airlines have done as a part of the segementation process. I will be surprised if there is no redundency program.

Iza_N_Junear
3rd Jul 2005, 05:23
My sources (some high up in QF mangmnt) tell me that Sydney HM will be no more - only servicing to remain, GD is talking to Fox about leasing another hangar at AVV and spending ~$30mill to extend/refurb.

Bolty McBolt
3rd Jul 2005, 07:47
I have heard these rumours too but not in conjunction with Sydney heavy.
I think the cross hairs are aimed firmly at Tulla 737 Heavy with work being sent to NZ untill AVV is set up to handle the work

Sunfish
3rd Jul 2005, 22:19
This is pure speculation but.......

This is why I was going on about your EBA being the LAST EBA. Your executive was in the know and sold you all up the river.

Your heavy maintenance has to go somewhere other than Sydney because the Sydney real estate is just too valuable to lock up.

My paranoid guess is that what has been exercising Qantas's management brain is how to justify holding on to their Sydney-centric bias in line maintenance, while getting rid of their heavy stuff. To me, that would be a real hair-splitting act.

Both Brisbane and Melbourne have plenty of space for QF line maintenance operations - we both have oodles of land.

But of course then each of your international aircraft wouldn't have to go through Sydney to get serviced either inbound or outbound would it? And we can't have that can we? :yuk:

chockchucker
3rd Jul 2005, 22:24
Don't think so Bolty. They wouldn't be spending the amount of money they are on hangar refurbs, including new docking, and new extended hour shift rosters only to shut Tullamarine down.

Sydney will have to go simply because space is at an extreme premium there. Plenty of wide open spaces at AVV and I bet the rent is a lot cheaper too.

Wouldn't be surprised to see all the Qantas hangars in Sydney eventually torn down to make way for a Qantas international terminal (much like BA terminal 4 at LHR). However, that would be a few years away yet.

Iza_N_Junear
4th Jul 2005, 02:23
For what it's worth, my opinion is that within, say 12 - 18 months, B767 & A330(if they keep them)- HM Brisbane, all B737 HM - Tulla, B744 & B777 (coming) HM - AVV.
ALso, Tulla HM hangars to be refurb, while that happens B737 work will relocate temporarily to AVV? & NZ (some 6 months or so).

longreach
4th Jul 2005, 03:27
getting the house in order before a big 777/787 order???

Going Boeing
4th Jul 2005, 06:30
Hanger No 1 at Avalon has been vacant since February and QF has been in negotiations with Fox to acquire it. I understand that they plan to put an extension on the front like some of the other hangers to fully enclose B744's and B773's. They will have a lot of capacity with the extra hanger.

Ultralights
4th Jul 2005, 07:27
They wouldn't be spending the amount of money they are on hangar refurbs, including new docking, and new extended hour shift rosters only to shut Tullamarine down.

umm They would! its been done before, behing H96 in syd, Qf referbed all the workshops to the rear of the hanger, only to have them demolished 6 months later! not to mention the still untouched Nose docking in H96! that has been there well over 10 yrs! and never used..

Turbo 5B
5th Jul 2005, 07:02
I just wish that that some pr!ck in management would give us some idea so we can get on with planning our futures. All this secrecy is causing much angst. What's the point? What the f^ck do they think we're going to do if they announce their plans, quit or refuse to move, take our bats and balls and go home?

Mr.Buzzy
5th Jul 2005, 07:22
My sources tell me that Dicko, (watching Branson's space exploits) picked up his phone, called the fatchick and said "Are you watching telly as well? Great, then have a look at channel 9... quick quick... We should do some of that too!"

bbbbbzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Alien Sex God
5th Jul 2005, 09:46
Like any other big company all the execs think about is how big there next bonus will be.They don't care how they get it as long as they get it.

Rocket Rob
6th Jul 2005, 00:34
Well come on, all eyes and ears did anything happen on the magic date?

Bolty McBolt
6th Jul 2005, 01:30
A few new rumours.... Base Maint and Line Sydney will be told their fate today... Heavy maint will find out in 2 weeks time..(why it's a secret I guess we will all find out.)

Hangar 96 is about to be refurb to accomadate the A380 ,door modifications and centre stantion moved etc so it looks like it is staying

Ultralights..What nose docking in H 96..Has been gone for years??

qfcainer... the requirement of knocking down the heavy maint hangers in syd went back years when the ex ansett finger became available.

Sunfish..the reason aircraft have A checks / maint in Sydney is because it is a hub. QANTAS has tried unsuccsessfully many times before to have A checks etc done out of sydney but any gains made are lost due to fuel/flying time lost doing a repositioning flight to the place of maint...

Boeing 777/787 apparently QF would purchase but dont have the cash to seal the deal plus ETOMS supplied the board with a statement that engineering might not be able to support the airline maint requirements during the introduction of 2 new aircraft types at the same time...A380 777

To those that know.. What is the refurb being done in Tulla Heavy hangar????(this must be good news)

Turbo 5B
6th Jul 2005, 05:53
Well if anyone from Base or Line hears anything can they put it up.

the shaman
6th Jul 2005, 11:23
Avalon staggers on , lots of quality issues and a bottomless pit for opex budget funds, run by country bumpkins.. kerry packer had his 'once in a lifetime' sucker in alan bond a la channel nine .. and lindsay fox has Qantas.. and just think QF could have had avalon for a mere 10 million bucks when ASTAS folded in 95..

Sydney HM seems to be dying a death by a thousand cuts,, but 1 line may survive to do 74 SA and C's.. only other wild card is A380 HM but rumour has it the board continues to knock back funds to convert 96 to take the aircraft...

Me thinks if you flick forward thru the pages to 2020... there will be rows of QF HM hangars at BNE.....Avalon will be a memory and SYD a line station only.... a brissy mate of mine says that multiplex engineers are already marching around with plans for new hangars under there arms.. watch out for the snakes

someone pls put us out of our misery..

NS Driver
6th Jul 2005, 12:14
I guess everyone seems to believe engineering is the target of a pending announcement. Ask the guys and gals over at the pie shops how they are going? I have a number of close associates who work for QFCL and their knees are banging together louder than ever. They like all the ETOMS employees would just like to know what the hell is going on so they can plan their lives and move ahead.

Redstone
6th Jul 2005, 22:42
Looks like more toe cutters installed SIT & SDT............. watch your back brothers.

Turbo 5B
7th Jul 2005, 00:05
Redstone.. what does that actually mean?

Bolty McBolt
7th Jul 2005, 00:48
A few rumours to add to the rumours :yuk:

Toe cutters for SDT SIT… The man who has SDT CBR is ex IR. Handles himself with aplomb in a IR courtroom. Can talk / think on his feet. Look out those fools who wish to argue the bleeding obvious…Perhaps put there to facilitate no man push backs ???

The SIT man is ex engine line area and has worked with Muzza before and has been put there to do a job which predecessor could not do (read letter from cust serv boss)…Here comes the customer work group/pier C etc etc all over again without the matey club in charge …Hold onto your hats and crispy creams fella’s

:ouch:

Rocket Rob
9th Jul 2005, 03:01
As always a lot of talk (crap) rumors but no fruition!!!

Turbo 5B
12th Jul 2005, 00:49
Give us your list of cheaper available MRO'S that can do our 744's to an acceptable quality then. Especially in the region.

hangar 9
12th Jul 2005, 01:02
What do you call an acceptable level? I haven't seen one aircraft come out of Heavy Maint. with a CCRF sliding door that doesn't fall off the tracks aft the first landing. It is an absolute joke that you guys think you do it better than anyone else, and it is a real embarassment when the first flight out and you have to make the door work. Who ever designed those sliding surfboards never got his training on an aircraft.

Turbo 5B
12th Jul 2005, 01:31
What the hell are you going on about?
If you are talking about a containerized crew rest facility then i haven't seen one on a qf 744 before.
Also you point out that it is the design of the door in question that is the problem, not the engineer that is expected to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
An acceptable level is one that means all of the inspections get done properly and not just signed off over night. All of the required rectification gets carried out at a high standard. It means that all of the employees work to a high safety standard.
It means putting out a reliable product of high standard on time.

And by the way, we do do it better than most.
What the hell do you do anyway?

speedbirdhouse
12th Jul 2005, 02:04
I think he is refering to the overhead cabin crew rest facility above doors 5 on the 744.

The design of the door is a shocker as more often than not it is off it's tracks making it difficult to open/close and lock/unlock.

Would not Boeing be reponsible for it's design?

Turbo 5B
12th Jul 2005, 02:15
AHH. he means the Dr 5 crew rest or the Aft crew rest, not a ccrf.
Yes you're right the design is pathetic.Even with new parts the thing won't sit properly and tends to tilt whilst it slides which means as soon as there is a bit of friction it catches and jams up.
I defy any MRO in the world to make the bastard work properly.

Trash Hauler
12th Jul 2005, 05:52
qfcainer Isn't the Avalon you refer to run by Qantas? If so are the LAMEs paid less than in Sydney or is it the facility cost that makes it more economical?

Of the facilites listed I note some have a reputation for not such good quality work. How do you rate them?

Turbo 5B
12th Jul 2005, 09:27
I wouldn't be too sure that qf management doesn't look for Quality. They have been bitten too many times by shoddy work....Avv included.
Look at the landing gears, they are now trying to bring them back in house because the quality or lack thereof in the outside world is so [email protected] that it's more of a head ache than it's worth.
To clarify a point, AVV Lames are on a different EBA to Qantas Lames thanks to the ALAEA, and they are restricted to the amount they can earn.
If QF thought they could get a better deal and afford to lose years of quality experience by sending 744's overseas and closing down sydney h/m then why haven't they?
I'm sure it's not because they've got our best interests at heart.
It's because the reality of the situation is that they can't afford to lose us.
We aren't that expensive and we put out a quality product.

the shaman
12th Jul 2005, 09:34
hey guys - the quality and turntimes of QF heavy maint aircraft are indisputable, have you all forgotten the 747 strut mod programme..!! Line 1 got the strut mod and combined D check down to under 40 days from memory,..... but the secret ingredient is a happy and motivated workforce, which appears to be in short supply at the moment..

now back to the juicy stuff .. jungle tom toms are beating and the bush telegraph rumour is that Mr Petterson got his marching orders this week from SIT.. anyone care to elaborate..

AN LAME
12th Jul 2005, 10:17
To clarify a point, AVV Lames are on a different EBA to Qantas Lames thanks to the ALAEA, and they are restricted to the amount they can earn.

Turbo

You are correct in saying that 'Forstaff' LAMEs are on a different EBA. However, the pay scales are identical as is the progression through the levels, with the exception that there are no quotas. Therefore there is less ability to restrict incomes than in Syd H/M.
The QF LAMEs are payed under the same award so as qf cainer said, it must be the facility and management costs which make AVV more attractive.
As far as the immigrants - AMEs to the rest of us - my understanding is that they are paid very comparable rates to QF - not 'peanuts'.

As far as the AME/LAME ratio, it is too low, but it's getting better. It's not going to get anywhere near 70%, but in my humble opinion, that is approaching excessive.

sys 4
12th Jul 2005, 20:04
as for the lame ratios i am 6 IC on my crew and have been the crew leader for a while as all the other lame's are on seconment,leave or some other reason for not being at work.If the numbers were to reduce there would be times with no leaders.That to me is an indicator that the numbers are about right.
This is not only happeniing on my crew but others as well.

Turbo 5B
12th Jul 2005, 23:46
AN LAME
You're correct there are no quota restrictions. There is however a top level of level 10. Qantas has a top level of 13 and it's quota restrictions kick in at level 9.
Apples and Oranges mate.
AME's top out at level 10 as well. A max payment of $870 a week. QF AME's can go to 13 as well.( Higher than a level 3 LAME earns)
Lame ratio in H/M should be higher as the Lame in H/M does more work of a critical nature for a start. A higher level of supervision is required for the increased amount of Flight control rectification/rigging etc.

AN LAME
13th Jul 2005, 07:03
sys 4

I see your point when taking into account secondmnets etc. I was looking at 70% as the standard

Turbo

Given the relatively short period of existence of Avalon, the levels you mention would not have been reached by anyone, hence no restrictions (cheaper labour) as yet. However, I take your point.
With regard to closer supervision, it is up to any LAME to provide the appropriate level of supervision, regardless of their employer. Having said that, I know none of us live or work in Utopia. :hmm:

BalusKaptan
13th Jul 2005, 16:42
Turbo 5B,

Whats this about Qantas landing gear coming back in house? Only just a couple of days ago I had a QF landing gear onboard enroute to France for overhaul.

sys 4
13th Jul 2005, 20:24
ever time we get a gear change in sydney there is a non compliance issue.either it's paperwork or the gear not meeting standards(in which case it gets reworked by us or it's sent back to it's origin)

Turbo 5B
14th Jul 2005, 00:09
I said they are trying to bring the gear back in house.
Trouble is when you burn your bridges with equipment and experience it takes time to rebuild.
The fact they now have a plating shop in action again will help.

middleman
14th Jul 2005, 03:45
"AME's top out at level 10 as well. A max payment of $870 a week. QF AME's can go to 13 as well.( Higher than a level 3 LAME earns)"

Just to clarify. The Avalon level structure is not the same as the QANTAS Level structure. Yes QANTAS has up to level 13 but it's only people who have been with the company a long time who are there.
And yes if they are level 13 and have 8 basics and with tool allowance that does put them about $15 a week above a level 3 LAME.

The current maximum is level 12. Level 11 and 12 are quota controlled and it's a bit of a joke. To get a quota postition involves applying if there is a position and going through an interview etc etc. I think it has been several years since anyone was made up into a quota position despite people already in them leaving or relocating.


The highest QF AME's can go without getting into a quota is Level 10.
QF level 10 = $777
AVV level 10 = $870

Everyone just assumes the QF and AVV level and pay structure is the same but it's not. AVV are not as hard done by as people think....

Sunfish
14th Jul 2005, 04:50
One has to hope Qantas has a good engineering bean counter who understands cost allocation before deciding what parts of maintenance are cost efficient and what are not.

I remember a certain company that decided its aircraft component foundry was "unprofitable" and closed it - then wondered why the cost base of the rest of the operation increased.

I also vividly remember an AN engineering voluntary redundancy scheme back in about 1979 or suchlike. It worked quite well and most were very happy - that is until a certain manager saw a LAME he had personaly and thankfully farewelled in Melbourne nine months before ( a guy from shallow end of the gene pool in his opinion) was now working in line maintenance in Brisbane! - The guy got the package, moved interstate and snuck back into line maintenance and was granted full continuity!

That afternoon KB and R J got a big red "not to be reemployed" stamp and went through the personnel files together!

Crystal Marina
14th Jul 2005, 12:09
The way I understand it Avalon LAME's have complete parity with QF LAME's, no difference.

Mind you, when you only work on 2 types it is a little hard to advance.

Although the company has just taken over the last remaining hangar at Avalon and I believe they intend to do extensive modifications to this hangar. I am not sure what they intend to do in this hangar but my guess is that it could be.......................................................... ........ I'd rather not say.

It could upset some Victorians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:ok:

sys 4
14th Jul 2005, 13:46
well well well Crystal Marina,i think you have finally revealed yourself,see you at work

Turbo 5B
15th Jul 2005, 02:59
Just to clarify. The Avalon level structure is not the same as the QANTAS Level structure. Yes QANTAS has up to level 13 but it's only people who have been with the company a long time who are there.And yes if they are level 13 and have 8 basics and with tool allowance that does put them about $15 a week above a level 3 LAME.

A level 13 AME gets paid more than a level 3 Lame. A level 13 ame has his basics , not "and has his basics" and ames tool allowances are part of their rate of pay. Any one can get into a quota position. Years of service don't come into it.
I know ames that have progressed from level 6 to level 12 by applying for quota positions. (with only 2 years service).
AVV ames, under their current agreement will not be able to earn as much as their qf counterparts, it's as simple as that.
What you need to do is read the two agreements side by side.
If there was complete parity withthe Qantas system Qantas would have simply called the place Qantas maintenance and staffed it with qantas employees.
It has a cheaper cost base because it doesn't have to pay the employees as much in the long run.(Qantas has long term plans, always look into the future as see what will happen down the track).
The employees are more flexible because they can lay them off with 2 weeks notice and f all redundancy pay.

Crystal Marina
15th Jul 2005, 11:28
Sys 4,
Five or six years ago this would have been possible but today you would have to travel a long way to see me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

Turbo 5Behind,
I said the LAME's had parity. I have no interest in the AME's. The reason Avalon has a lower cost base is the LAME to AME ratio which I feel is ridiculous. I believe CASA did an audit there and there were a whole lot of people running around in white shirts. CASA thought they were all LAME's and they were, but not licenced on type.:ok:

sys 4
15th Jul 2005, 21:56
bullsd!t CM you can lie to the work force and maybe get away with it,but your writing has revealed you finally,you still work for qantas and you are in supervision role.

Turbo 5B
16th Jul 2005, 00:38
Crystal, Yours was not the only comment to be replied to in my last post.
It is interesting that you have no interest in Ames. As an executive member I thought that you would realise that that is where the future members come from, and it would be a good idea to demonstrate how the alaea would look after them.

Apophis
16th Jul 2005, 08:17
Let,s just face the fact that when casa visits a qantas site qantas has known they were coming for days maybe weeks before they turn up then they get spun a pack of fiction and are sent on there way and things resume as normal nothing changes or will change untill casa turns up without any notice and starts to do there job.

Crystal Marina
16th Jul 2005, 12:08
Sys 4,
You wouldn’t know effluent from clay!:ok:

Turbo 5B,
I wil clarify. I have not interest in AME's in this argument.:cool:

sys 4
16th Jul 2005, 21:43
CM how can you write such a thing i can tell from your writings and clay no probs
It's very similiar to we will consult with Heavy Maint on any deal done with O/T banking and then not having one meeting with us and doing a deal to stich us up,so everyone else can move on to big and better things,yes it really does look like your talking sh!t again CM.