Can an L.A.E change a light bulb.?

[Rob_L]

Watched one of the products of a UK training
college ( LWTR Aeroplanes 2) trying to change a landing light on a 737.
Initially attempted to remove the lamp retainer by removing the adustment screws.
Watched him struggle to refit retainer but didn't want to interfere, he had failed to engage the lugs on the back of the lamp. Eventually it started to rain and I sent him back to the hangar. I removed the lamp to reposition it and found both terminals loose.

The CAA believe this person is fit to certify an aircraft for flight, yet he clearly lacks basic skills as well as the ability to check his own work. When he certifies the work of others who knows what gets past. This is just one incident from a string and by no means the worst.

Surely it is time that an independent inquiry was launched into the CAA's handling of engineer licensing, and the abysmal low standard it is prepared to accept.

[Daget]

At least he knew what a landing light was. I have seen RMA men (BA A license) changing a taxi light when asked to change a landing light. As for a part number if they are not told it they havent a clue how to find out.

[spannersatcx]

Wouldn't it of been easier to offer help? I'm sure there are jobs all of us have never done and the second time you do it it is always easier. Mind you if you don't know ASK.

[Diablo]

Daget, there are lots of post's slagging off people with A licenses or R/BMA's that BA use. I know people with A licenses that are damn good, hard working professional engineers that can't manage the memory test that licenses have become. This does not detract from the experience that they have accumulated over the years. Don't slag them off and tar them all with the same brush.

I watched a B.A. A & C B747-400 CRS holder go up to the flight deck on an Air New Zealand jumbo when he should have been on the Singers next door !!! So do I assume they are all thick? NO.

What Rob is getting at, is a lot of cover and very little experience is a dangerous combination and the way training is going, you and I will bump into more and more people like this as time goes on.

At the moment JAR66 has a requirement for 5 years experience, I can see the airlines chipping away at that as the number of EXPERIENCED LAME's declines.

[Daget]

You should work where I do then. Yes we have good people there but we also have a large number of bad ones, its not all their fault the company offered them money to take the RMA and they did, I know I would in thier situation. Now they are expected to do all the work the RMA entails and they just dont have the experiance, they were prepared to fiddle PER books to get the cover and money but now they have to do the work they are not all happy (some are I know). A lot of the blame lies with the company for bringing in this system in this way and also with LAEs for stamping the PER books. When they voted this system in in the company they also voted for the LAE job to be reduced in stature and the pay to be reduced, so they sold my position to get themselves some money, yes I am bitter and angry the company now wants to remove avionic CRS from the ramp operation. I have to on a daily basis go around clearing ADDs that the RMA teams have raised, go back to the old system and most of these defects would have been cleared when the plane came in. Being rude and sarcastic is my way of venting my frustration at the present situation. I also stand by principles and dont stamp fiddled PER books.
I think the hard working RMA holders are being let down by the bad ones but where we are you cant say that the old school union still runs the blokes the same way they used to in the old days, you hold back your PER books if the shop steward says so you put them in to quality when he says so, the question of being a good worker or a bad one dosnt come into anything ever. People can get away with doing nothing all the time or not knowing how to do anything.
Sorry to all the good workers out there tarred by my wide brush but lets not beat around the bush the cons outweigh the pros

[The Weasel]

The scene Rob L describes sounds like a classic case of RTFM.Reading between the lines it sounds as though this is really a cry to the CAA, asking them to wake up to the real world and stop the problem they themselves are 'engineering'for us.I trust it's safe to use that term as they must have a few degrees between them!
Do any surveyors visit this forum? If so are you taking note, or do we have to wait for fatalities? It must be clear by now that if you are going to rely on the integrity of profit making maintenance organisations,to train and authorise their own personnel,you have already lost the battle.

[HeliEng]

I am a soon to be ex-heli engineer, and I have seen some things which have made me so angry.

I know an unlicenced guy who is probably one of THE best engineers that I know, I would happily fly in anything he has been working on. The only thing is, he has a real problem with the exams, it is just a memory test as Diablo said, but he freezes!

As a total opposite, I also know an LAME with type ratings coming out of his ears who I wouldn't trust with my wheelbarrow! I think that his work is dangerous and of poor quality.

The training establishment with which I am familiar, runs a course, whereby you do ONE day a week, doing one/two modules a term and sitting the JAR exam at the end of the term. I think this is a very hard way to learn, and from what I have heard their pass rates leave a lot to be desired!

You can actually get a JAR66 licence with 3 years experience, this is on the condition that you attend a JAR 147 approved training establishment for a set amount of time. I don't think that ANYONE is ready to certify an aircraft after three years.

One last point, Rob_L, try not to be as scathing of people who do not have as much experience as you. Everyone has to learn sometime, try and let your LWTR Aeroplanes 2 person know that they can come to you and ask you things.
spannersatcx is also right though, everyone MUST ask questions, if you don't accidents WILL happen. It is easy to say, and I know that some people find asking question harder than others for fear of appearing a fool. We have to accept other people are different, and less experienced

'Some days we are the statue and some days we are the pigeon.'

[spannersatcx]

If it is as bad as you are saying why not write to CHIRP, ALAE, The CAA, QA, MP. Chirp and the ALAE would protect your anonimity.

[morroccomole]

Rob_L; I understand you work in an easy enviroment. If so, you must expose this person's shortcomings to your QA manager who has issued his E number. By doing this you will be protecting my family who often travel on orange 737's

[Ali Crom]

I had a bit of trouble knowing which thread to post this one on as they all seem to be covering the same topic.
Wouldn't you have thought that in light of recent events the so-called authorities would be nervous about introducing new regulations as a response to the current shortage of engineers which could be detrimental to safety by even the slightest amount? It would appear not.
In the UK alone wev'e had the BSE epidemic , Ecoli , the national rail crisis & now Foot & Mouth disease. All but one of these has resulted in human fatalities but they all have one thing in common - they have come about due to lowering of standards.
I've heard it said many a time , even by a CAA surveyor that our industry standards are too high.
Too high compared to what?
I can't help thinking that because we haven't had many fatalities in recent years that it's deemed to be justification for lowering those high standards ( and therefore lower costs ). So to put it bluntly , if the authorities/governments are prepared to let other industries kill off the general public then there is nothing to make me think our industry will not be allowed to join this current trend.
This may seem to be a pessimistic view but it's genuine one because from what I see around the workplace & judging from the experiences of other contributors to this forum the seeds have already been sown.

[hover lover]

Hello!
From over on this side of The Pond.
If you take the time to read this story you will know just how much engineers are appreciated. Story is 3 pages long so I'll just post the url here:
http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=bill212&id=3817.987908951479894
Story is 'Grease Monkey', writer is Bill O'Brien, Aviation Safety Inspector,(Fedreal Aviation Admin.) Reading this sure made me think.

[Rob_L]

Morroccomole,

Don't read things into a post that aren't
there. There is more than one 737 operator in the UK.

My familly fly on the orange aircraft as well and I don't have any problems with that.

[morroccomole]

Rob_L: the reason I thought you were at easy is simple; in an earlier thread on this forum (FLS easyTech 11th FEB 2001)you said: "we had a stack of contractors at easytech last year, they were all offered permi jobs and they all took them."
easytech has 2 bases in the UK, LTN and LPL. No connies have taken permi jobs at LTN so far, so by deduction you must be at LPL?