Lets all Get together

[Lame Excuse]

Instead of everyone griping about pay and conditions why don't we all join the ALAE and make it as powerful as BALPA.

[Diablo]

Couldn't agree more, but it will still take a long time before any of the big companies are actually negotiating with them as the main point of contact.

I am only aware of British Midland (or whatever thay will be called next week) at East Midlands that have the ALAE as their main representatives.

Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Also I don't think many unlicensed people are aware the ALAE will represent them.

Spread the word.

[Lame Excuse]

Maybe the ALAE could be more aggressive in their recruiting.More advertising, sending application forms to newly qualified engineers (licences are public record)or even having seminars and presentations at the heart of the industry i.e. small/large third party maintenance companies.

[This message has been edited by Lame Excuse (edited 21 January 2001).]

[time-ex]

Im up for it but when I've tried to get colleagues to join me I get the old chestnut reply about AUEW covering any legal costs. The only evidence I've seen of that has been some pretty good work on behalf of guy's getting knocked of their bikes on the way to and from work getting them good compensation. The AUEW has now got the bulk of LAME members in the worlds favourite but it has been virtually useless at representing them, whereas it has got unlicenced technicians quite a good deal in recent years. The ALAE and it's members need to be a bit more active in shouting about any success it has had, maybe through forums such as this. Any BA LAME who is reading this should join the ALAE as well as the AUEW
and start fighting your corner before it is too late (if it isn't too late already).
At the same time kick union ass when ever you get the chance, remind them that you are here, if nothing else, ask them where your new workwear is because that is just the sort of thing I'm on about.

[Rob_L]

I believe that names and addresses of licensed engineers are NOT in the public domain. This has put a hurdle in the way of anyone trying to organise. Only the CAA have this information and it is not in their interest to change the system.

[LBMF]

If we are to get together we need to forget BA. The LAE's at BA are in a different world. They opted for a one off payment years ago when we had the chance to join BALPA. As about 40% of LAEs work at BA but they do not know what it is like in the real world.
If want a real wage in the future we can't have the BAs involved because they will be offered flights or other incentives not to go for a pay rise, unfortunately the rest of us don't have the luxury of working for a company that had all it's aircraft bought by the tax payer.

We will still suffer & the BA LAEs will have another free flight! Not good for repaying the mortgage!

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm not an LAE, so haven't a vested interest - my club is the RAeS for most things and I've never joined a trade Onion (which I'll admit I regretted once).

I'd suggest that common membership of a Union IS IN THE CAA'S INTERESTS. Higher pay and professional standards, which tend to go with unionisation (to a point anyway) should, treated well, lead to better safety. Look at the BALPA safety work - very creditable.

Doesn't mean that they will do anything about it, but imho mass membership of ALAE would be a safety benefit, and therefore something that the CAA should push for.

G

[Lame Excuse]

I'm not saying engineering should be a closed shop, it is in all engineers interest that we have a common voice.
Mass membership (voluntary) would mean we could have accurate salary surveys, good contacts and a less fragmented industry.
With the JAR66 bearing down on us there are going to be less LAMEs and we need to talk to each other. The bean counters will be less able to pressure us if we had a clearer defined and more professional approach.

[The Invisible Man]

What are your views of the AEEU and MSF joining forces in the not to distant future? Personally I think it a step in the right direction.

[spannersatcx]

For your info, the ALAE has a website at ALAE (http://www.lae.mcmail.com)
From here you can join the ALAE cost £52/year there are e-mail links to the office, it even has it's own forum, job adverts etc....
As far as I am aware the co you work for has no choice but to talk to any union if the majority of the LAE's are members of a particular union. The ALAE has a legal department and WILL represent you if you are fully paid up.
They have also held recruitment/awareness seminars at schools/colleges to try and make people interested/aware of the Aircraft Engineer. It issues a monthly magazine with all sorts of info, which is published monthly, it is run by practicising or retired Engineers so people that know what we are about.
Go on give it a go and spread the word, you never know you may benefit from it. You can also become a member if you are not a LAE.

[morroccomole]

Wait for the pay award at easyTech to happen this month. If it is no good they will ask ALAE to represent them in future.

[Ali Crom]

LBMF , As I'm one of the '40%' ers who work for BA , just thought I'd try to set the record straight . As I'm one of the younger members of the LAE community I & many others like me didn't get the chance to join BALPA as this must have been well before our time . Had we been given this chance we would have jumped ship without a second thought as our current union the AEEU have done very little for us within recent years . For example , the Technicians were given substantial pay awards for gaining the RMA ( Ramp Maintenance Authorisation ) or only 1 of 4 modules of the BMA ( Base Maintenance authorisation ) whereby they had to attend a 3 week basic a/c type course , copy each others 'Personal' experience record books & pass the Quality Dept's oral exam . I've no objection whatsoever that a union should represent it's members & to improve their pay & condition's but after I'd studied my nuts off for 3 years , much of it in my own time & to my expense to pass the LWTR A & C & then later the 2 CRS courses then with 2 a/c type authorisations under my belt & the responsibility that comes with being a full CRS holder I was quite literally only few quid a year better off than them . It was only recently that the company decided to redress the balance with a pay increase for many of the LAE's who weren't at the grade when BA abolished 'type authorisation ' pay . To my knowledge this was not instigated by the AEEU but by the company & I suspect , to try to stem the flow of LAEs leaving for better offers outside. It's my firm belief that the present union only tries to get the best deal for the majority of it's members , the unlicensed ones . This , in my opinion is why we should all join the ALAE for a union which will hopefully represent our interests & give us the recognition & status we really deserve as BALPA does for the pilots.

[Lame Excuse]

Nice one!!
Do any of the people at ALAE have an opinion to offer as to poor membership numbers or even whether they would consider amalgamating with any of the other unions to push up percentage.

[jetfueldrinker]

We had one guy at our place who needed union representation recently. Turns out that he was with ALEA and not AEEU who represent us. Looks like he is the only one to be in ALEA, and maybe not for much longer. It is the majority that rule, and like so many places, the majority of blokes at our place are unlicensed. However, with the proposed merger between the AEEU and MSF, I cannot see supervisors and licensed blokes getting something that unlicensed blokes cannot have.

[Diablo]

Agreed, I am an ALAE member and when I told a few of the unlicenced guys who are studying for tickets at the moment, that they could join if they had enough experience to cover an AD300 application, they were amazed. The name is a bit misleading, it will represent you if you have cover or not. If you plan on getting JAR66 licenses then join and give yourself a future worth studying your arse off for. Firms like B.A. have made so there is no financial incentive for unlicenced guys to study.

The industry is crying out for LAME's make it worth their while and people will study !!

More LAME's mean a less stressful working environment and that will lead to higher standards and a safer industry.



[This message has been edited by Diablo (edited 22 January 2001).]

[time-ex]

Ali Crom reflects some of my previous posting and has given his viewpoint well.
How can we all get together if you are going to leave 40% of LAEs out.
If divide and rule works, and I believe history has shown that it does, youv’e lost before you start. What happened at BA ref BALPA was a long time ago and it wasn’t all the LAEs that got the choice it was the Supervisors at the time most of whom were LAEs. They have either retired or gone into management where their technical qualifications have been passivated. The LAEs at BA now who do not aspire to management are a different breed entirely to those in the past. Whereas there were offices full of so called experts “backing up” the front line, this is not the case now.
I wouldn’t deny that in the past it was possible for an LAE to cruise at BA but in the area I work in this is not the case now.
I don’t where you get all this extra flights stuff from. You are talking about the management LAEs of 10 years ago who are no longer around except for one or two who wouldn’t play the management game.

[Ali Crom]

So if we are to try to encourage more of the LAEs within BA across the numerous Depts & fellow LAEs in other airlines/maintenance organisations to join the ALAE how do we go about it effectively? Does anybody know what the minimum number of members are reqd for union recognition now?

[The Weasel]

Nicely put, Ali-Crom.As you say the prospective RMA/BMA/s mereley have to copy each others VER's (Virtual Experience Records')but it's the suicidal LAE's who certify this experience allowing the company to increase it's quantity of 'authorised' engineers. This, in turn,is reducing the demand for LAE's and reducing the likelyhood of a decent pay rise.

[spannersatcx]

Ali Crom refer to my earlier post. If you have questions of the ALAE why not ask Them?
I believe it has to be a majority for representation to be recognised by a co.
As for members at the last count there were 2000 members, what percentage of the number of LAE's that is in the UK I don't know. Many LAE's are overseas nationals or ex-pats working in sunnier climes.

[SchmiteGoBust]

There was a forum along these lines some time ago I seem to remember.
I agree and think it essential that we stick together. The ALEA is the obvious route to go down.
However for some people this may represent a problem. I used to work for a big company that was represented by the AEEU (which we were all in). In pay negotiations the licence engineers would definately have been better standing alone. This was discussed and produced some pretty harsh reactions from the rest of the workforce i.e. stores ,office staff, site etc etc..
It appeared the company would also have liked to give the engineers more, but couldn't afford to fund everyone else by the same amount.
These engineers would have to be pretty hard faced to go it alone!!!!Any ideas guys?

[Diablo]

There was a letter in the Tech Log (ALAE magazine) last issue, about an engineer retiering. His license number was around the 10,000 mark and he was asking if his was the lowest number still being used. Latest license numbers are about the 31,000 mark. This leaves a maximum 21,000 engineers. As has been said some are overseas, some retiered, some left the industry, some passed away, some not bothered to extend thier cover beyond the one license.

As a conservative estimate, I can't imagine more than about 5-6000 people working as licensed engineers in the main stream "Airline" environment. So ALAE membership could be as high as 30%. There is nothing to stop anyone being a member of the M.S.F./A.E.E.U. and the ALAE (I am) and when enough of your colleuges do the same, then it will be easier for the ALAE to take over. The way people are speaking at the moment, it would appear you are all hopeing for a mass transfer to the ALAE that won't happen it has to be done gradually that is the nature of the beast in this industry.

You guys at B.A. will not get a descent pay award while the craft bargaining unit is representing you all. I left just after restructuring because of no license pay and still keep in touch. The "Super LAE" supplement seems to be a step in the right direction, but you need to push for an increase in that, not just basic. Make it worth having licenses again. But do encourage the new license holders to join the ALAE. United we stand ect. ect. ect......

Good thread keep it going guys..

[This message has been edited by Diablo (edited 07 February 2001).]

[Rob_L]

I believe that the current number of l.a.e's
is about 14,000. How many are working in the U.K. is a good question.

I believe the only way forward is for all aircraft maintenance engineers to be represented by one body. A change in ALAEs name would be a good start the current name is off putting to many. Association of Aircraft Maintenance Engineers would be my choice. Alae is to parochial.

After all, mechanics are just Licensed engineers who haven't passed the exam yet.

[Ali Crom]

Time -ex , I agree with your view regarding reluctance to change unions on the basis being well compensated for injuries sustained at or travelling to/from work.
Many people I have spoken to have used the same excuse & some have said that joining the ALAE is waste of time but this hasn't put me off joining .
If we all had this pessimistic attitude we won't get anywhere .Most Engineers tend to be a cynical bunch at the best of times & this has probably been our own downfall . At least by joining I feel I've made a small contribution towards eventually improving the situation. I agree it won't happen overnight but at least it might in my working lifetime so we need to have faith .

I've on occasion , visited 'The Mechanic.Com' & there appears to be some quite heated arguements on the main bulletin board on the subject of which union should be representing the interests of the AMEs in the 'Land of the Free' . Has anybody else had a look & care to comment?

[spannerhead]

I think that more of you chaps should join the ALAE, even if your company does not recognise it as a union. The CAA recognises it as a voice of the LAME. The more of us...The LOUDER the voice!!!!

[This message has been edited by spannerhead (edited 01 February 2001).]

[radiator]

I am a representative (ALAE) at British Midland. We have good support, but need other companies to follow. If I can assist please contact me