What actually happened? (Typhoo versus F15)

[Self Loading Freight]

From my brothers in text on Scotland on Sunday (http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=673262005)

"IT might be over budget and years late but the Eurofighter Typhoon has shown that it can shake off America's best fighter plane and shoot it down.

A chance encounter over the Lake District between a Eurofighter trainer and two F-15 aircraft turned into a mock dogfight, with the British plane coming off best - much to the surprise of some in the RAF. The episode was hushed up for fear of causing US blushes.

For a project 10 years late and $8bn over budget, it is a welcome piece of good news.

The 'clash' took place last year over Windermere when the two-seater RAF Eurofighter was 'bounced' from behind by the two F-15E fighters.

The US pilots intended to pursue the supposedly hapless 'Limey' for several miles and lock their radars on to it for long enough so that if it had been a real dogfight the British jet would have been shot down.

But much to the Americans' surprise, the Eurofighter shook them off, outmanoeuvred them and moved into shooting positions on their tails.

The British pilots themselves were almost as surprised at winning an encounter with an aircraft widely regarded as the best fighter in the world."

Err... right. Was this just a chunk of banter fed to some hapless hack in a bar, or was there really a dogfight with the septics?

R

[Fox3snapshot]

Yes but the Indian Air Force managed give the USAF F15's a good licking as well....

:hmm:

[jwcook]

This is just a rehash of an older story, though I have heard rumours of some more recent 'encounters', can anyone give the tinyest details !!!.

Cheers

[BombayDuck]

I rarely post on the Mil forum, but I just had to mention one bit in the article again:

F-15E

Now wouldn't that make a difference?

[Gainesy]

Now wouldn't that make a difference?

Mudhen or not, still a 1 v. 2 from an unadvantageous start.

[rivetjoint]

Fox3snapshot, there's a lot more to that story than meets the eye, it's almost as if they wanted the F-15s to lose :)

[Pontius Navigator]

F15E should have an advantage over the F15C. I once controlled an F15C in a 1v4.

He went Judy on a 4-ship of Buccs. The final score was 1 - 1 with 3 Buccs exiting stage left!

[Fox3snapshot]

To safegaurd the F22 funding perhaps....;)

[ShyTorque]

Typhoon was designed to outperform aircraft not yet in service so it's not really surprising that this is quite possible.

These days we are often too good at believing we should be second best in everything.

[Jackonicko]

RJ,
I can assure you that the 48th TFW weren't playing to lose.

It should hardly be surprising that Typhoon, with its thrust, big wing, powerful canards and well-sorted FCS should be able to outmanoeuvre any F-15 (if that's what happened), regardless of whether it was a C, a D or an E, and whether it was 30 years old or brand new off the line.

What was much more surprising was Typhoon's performance in 'one versus many' engagements during the Singapore evaluation. I understand that Captor's parametrics are already absolutely extraordinary, and once the full-up DVI, helmet, PIRATE, and DASS are up and integrated, it will be a great AD aeroplane.

Moreover, we should remember that both Windermere and Singapore involved Block 1 jets, with a previous incarnation of the FCS, DASS, and when the aircrew were still getting used to the jet. Block 2 is a further step forward, and Block 5 will be a further 'leap'. And that's before we get to Tranche 2.

I don't want to sound like a PR man for Eurofighter - there are plenty of things to kick the programme for - the timescales are still hopeless, the A-G capabilities are still too far off, and why haven't they integrated an interim helmet (like Jaguar's, say?) if Eurofighter's all-singing, all-dancing model is going to take so long? And while some problems are in the past, they have resulted in the aircraft being years late, and have added millions to the bill. Still worth a kicking, in my view.

It's going to be 2007 before the aircraft's declared for QRA - and then with only a handful of jets and with barely more capability than the F.Mk 3.

The company can be complacent beyond belief - having thrown away Singapore with a mix of incompetence and not having a robust plan for A-G it is doing nothing to bring forward the interim A-G capabilities required by some existing customers, and likely to be deal-breakers for potential users, nor to make the A-G timetable more credible. It's hard not to see further disappointments on the export market if they don't sharpen up.

The only comfort is that all fifth Generation fighter programmes are doing just as badly or worse - F-22, Rafale, JSF and the stillborn Russian Gen 5 jets. And once Typhoon is fully in service, the RAF will be in the unaccustomed position of having a truly world class aircraft in service. Only the F-22 will better Typhoon's capabilities, and you can afford two or three Typhoons for one Raptor.

If you're going to kick Typhoon then kick it for the right reasons, where a kick is fair and well deserved. Most of the criticism is ill-founded, or is based on concerns from the early development programme that were addressed and put to bed long ago.

[jwcook]

I had heard a rumour of one Typhoon vs many f-15's that went quite well, the details are unfortunately a bit foggy!!, I don't know if it was a planned sortie or just a chance meeting.

Can anyone confirm??, elaborate??, spill their guts;-)..... Please!.

Cheers

[Widger]

Watch it guys....you'll have Gangrene spouting off in this thread in a moment!

[JessTheDog]

On one occasion, F-15s were wasted by the mighty F3 thanks to a JTIDS picture suplied by an E3 and an interesting use of tactics.

[idle-centralise]

In this case the story is actually gen. I know someone that saw it taking photos that day, but it was some time ago (over a year if memory serves me rightly). It was actually up in the flow arrow past ambleside at Grasmere, just after the left right up the hill where the dual carriageway is. And apparently the F15's were made tolook rather silly. What a shame....

[rivetjoint]

Jacko, I was refering to the F3's reference to the story about F-15s in India, not the F-15Es against Typhoon.

[Gegene]

Agressors F-5Es are known for outdraging the F-15.

When fought out of the best part of the flight envelope, many airxcrafts can take the fight to F-15 jokeys.

Sorry for saying but Rafale too, easly.

It would have been hard to have to say the comtrary in view of the fact that Typhoon and other 4th gen aircrafts were designed to do just that.

Having said this, it's still a good perf by RAF, and the fact that it was the two seaters doesn't change much in terms of their capabilities. They only have one seat more, the avionics for the rear crewman and less internal fuel.

RJ,
I can assure you that the 48th TFW weren\'t playing to lose.

"It should hardly be surprising that Typhoon, with its thrust, big wing, powerful canards and well-sorted FCS should be able to outmanoeuvre any F-15, whether it was a C, a D or an E, and whether it was 30 years old or brand new off the line."

This line is amateurish at best. I don\'t suppose you could elaborate technically or aerodymamically etheir.

I\'m your man any time.

"What was much more surprising was Typhoon\'s performance in \'one versus many\' engagements during the Singapore evaluation."

More to the point 4 vs 2 is not a necessary the best position for the "four" wing it is more difficult to fight than 2vs 2.

Since when are you umtitled to disclose these infos? To remind you what you and your pars have been doing with theedition of the "Eastern smile" article on AFM:

Breaknig BAE/Eurofighter contractual obligation to keep quiet about evrything conscerning the result of these eveluation.

Results: Typhoon is out, not only because it was the less performant in rea life but also because the commercial bulls of ignorant and non-official writers...

"I don\'t want to sound like a PR man for Eurofighter"

But you constantly do write like you\'re on their payroll.

More of it you keep showing how little you know about the aircrafts design and real capabilities.

"having thrown away Singapore"

They\'ve done it from the requiered specs and design stage.

"Only the F-22 will better Typhoon\'s capabilities, and you can afford two or three Typhoons for one Raptor. "

Another Typhoon fan-club wish list, a clear line taken right from the Typhoon\'s site.

You\'ll need a far better airframe design, a lot of structural redesign to compensate for the lack of aerodynamic optimisation to beat Rafale. But having said that, you could\'nt be writing the truth.....

"If you\'re going to kick Typhoon then kick it for the right reasons"

My list:

Reaquiered specs, change of them afteer programme launch, basic design arrangement (1970 aeros design and technology), bad programme management, lack of optimisation of the whole package from day one.

They still manage to beat a 40 years old concept, not thanks to you Jack... AWANICEONE.

[Raymond Ginardon]

Just can't stay quiet any longer!!! Condsider the 'BS' flag deployed (or at very least the 'I heard from my mate who works with a unit associated with the one on which this happened' flag!).

Like many things (IMHO), this has got out of proportion (if it's the 'incident' that I am referring to) and people are reading things into it that aren't supportable.

Sometimes aircraft just happen to end up in the same bit of sky - you do your briefed evasion/prosecution if you are authed to do so (ahem....) - if not you could just do a series of high g 'navigation turns' which, co-incidentally, 'help with the geometry'. So much of 'who ends up in front of / being shot by who' is just luck under these circumstances (not all, admittedly, but much in situations like this).

It's no great secret, it's just one of a series of 'meetings in the sky' that got noticed by a few people and talked about.

Hmmm, that's better :-)

Ray

[soddim]

Anybody who draws conclusions from the supposed chance engagement know nothing about air combat.

Even if it took place on an instrumented range it would still be difficult to draw conclusions because there are many variables at work not least being the ability level of the aircrew.

If Typhoon can beat F-15E it would be reasuring because it was meant to.

If it can achieve operational capability soon it might begin to justify all the investment in it.

[Navaleye]

Unless this event happened on an intrumented range I take all with a planet sized piece of salt.

[JagMate]

Well done Raymond Ginardon. This thread seems, for the most part, populated by 'spotters' who undoubtedly know all the relative performance specs of these aircraft but have never graduated past 'rookie' level in some flight simulator videogame. Circumstances often allow a far inferior ac to enter the arena with higher SA and make the kill, unseen. The operator still counts massively in this ever more high-tech age.
As for a one-off encounter between two aircraft types (who were possibly both doing a bit of sightseeing in the lakes), I hardly believe that this constitutes an objective measurement of their abilities.

[False Capture]

Just over a year ago I saw and heard a Typhoon T.1 playing with two F15Es in the Lake District. I concur with the post by idle-centralise.

The noise was fantastic!!:ok:

[Jackonicko]

RJ,

Hmm. Sorry. should have picked that up.

But I don't think the AK boys were aiming to lose, either, though the results did prove to be a very useful justification for F/A-22 just when such a justification was most useful.


Gegene,

The French broke contractual obligations in Singapore by revealing that Typhoon had been dropped.
The French gave at least as much detail about Typhoon's evaluation performance in Singapore as did folk from BAE and the RAF - probably more.
The Singaporeans are clever enough to differentiate between what the bid team revealed (virtually nothing) and what journos ferreted out).

[West Coast]

Jacko

Are you familier with the ROE for the IAF/USAF engagement?

[Junglie]

Well said Jagmate and raymond. The chance encounter of two different jets of whatever type can rarely determine the jets capabilities but more like who saw who first and with what, either the mk 1 eyeball or a sensor of some description. Even in a planned evolution at the merge the eventual winner will not always be down to the capabilities of the aircraft type.
I have seen hud footage of a Mig 29 being gunned by a Sea Harrier having already soaked up 2 sidewinders !! In a planned and briefed engagement. Is that an example of a superior visual fighter? I think not, just one with more SA at the merge.
People with a little knowledge are a dangerous thing, well maybe not dangerous, just make themselves out to look like t#@ts in an arena populated by experts !!:mad:

[Jim Meatherwan]

Team,

Although I have the deepest respect for the performance of our Indian Air Force Flanker bretheren, I thought it was too much of a co-incidence that they should be able to beat some very experienced F-15 mates at a time when the F-22 funding was so publicly in question.

Isn't it just too symmetrical that it should happen that way against the only viable non-western threat aircraft!

As to the Eurofighter performance, I agree with JN. It was designed to do this. I remember flying Joust simulations years and years ago, and we schwacked the F-15 every time!

I'd love to see an EF come up against an F-22! Now that would be fun.


Jim:ok:

[Jackonicko]

Of course you can't extrapolate anything from the result of one chance encounter - though had the F-15's claimed victory you can be sure that Typhoon's knockers would be using it as evidence of something.....

Of course it proves nothing and doesn't even provide a reliable indicator.

But it's surely not too difficult to give some credit for the fact that a pilot on his 12 hour SIPT conversion to a brand new type (and I believe it was a pilot with very little A-A experience), which was itself at a very early clearance, had the necessary SA to avoid being bounced and then to turn the tables on his attackers. The 48th FW were impressed by his achievement!

[partz]

Where does Jackinoco(?) get his info from, most of it looks suspect to me ?

[Maple 01]

Jacko's a respected aviation journalist - have a look at his past posts


(can't believe I put 'journalist' and 'respected' in same sentence - exception that proves the rule?)
;)

[Jackonicko]

Partz,

As a new boy, that's an entirely valid and understandable question, especially since BAE Systems were pretty tight lipped about the incident, and so were 17.

Broadly speaking, I am a full time defence/aviation journo, and I do try to keep my finger on the pulse of major programmes - especially UK ones. I'm lucky enough to be able to speak to people at 'all levels' from Erk to CAS himself, and from BAE assembly overall wearers to EF GmbH's CEO. My access to overseas programmes is less, of course, but is still pretty wide. That's just as well, since I have only enough expertise to be able to regurgitate what people tell me - and I prefer to get expert folk to interpret what I hear rather than interpreting it myself.

I'm therefore disappointed that you should judge what I say as seeming 'suspect to you'. When you leave your own profile quite so vague, however, I'm not sure how qualified you are to judge!

If you're referring to my assertion that the engagement was during someone's SIPT, then it's easy - at the time of this incident that's all that was happening on Case White, and that's also what I was told at the time. That it was a particular pilot is an inference I drew from what a Case White bloke told me - it was a small pool of blokes then, and their names and flying backgrounds were made widely available. I hope I caveated my belief that it was someone with limited A-A experience adequately.

If you're referring to my assertion that the 48th weren't "Not trying" and were "impressed" - that's equally easy to explain - it's exactly what a 48th FW pilot told me after the event.

As to Singapore, I've written about the evaluation, and I know that I gained more 'snippets' from French and Yank people than I had from BAE, EF GmbH, Eurojet and RAF folk at the time, though once the French released the fact that Typhoon had been eliminated, many of the things I had been told by my original sources were confirmed by new ones, though both EF GmbH and BAE's PR folk remain tight lipped about Singapore.

[morning mungrel]

Well gee, excuse me..... a 35 year old a/c design gets beaten by a 10 -12 year old design...... Given the advances made in engineering, engines, electronics, even aerodynamics, I'd be pretty pissed off if the F-15's got even a sniff. In any case, so far the F-15 does the business. We're yet to see if the Typhoon does.

[Muff Coupling]

Small technical point..the F15E has a working gun..the Typhoon has:hmm:

[Giant Swede]

Chaps, there has been quite a bit of drivel posted on this topic. I`m sure we all have stories of ac being shot down in training by ac deemed inferior. This comes down to the man-machine link, pure bad luck or a complete cock up. As an F3 mate I have seen guns footage on F15s and Mig29s however in return have had bad days vs muds. When EFA(Spitfire) eventually comes into service no doubt it will be superb however bad luck and cock ups will still occur, that is the point of training flying. If it was easy anyone could do it.;)

[partz]

OK. To put a line under this, it was no big deal - a couple of IPs in the Lakes with a bit of unbriefed afil (can't remember what the TI 4/84 codes were). Nobody was trying to score points, but the PR got a tad out of hand. Sorry to kill a good story !

[Jackonicko]

"The F-15E has a working gun, the Typhoon has..."

A working gun! The Italians have just finished the firings.

Now whether the RAF will ever use and support that working gun, or simply use it as expensive ballast is an interesting question.....

As Partz could tell you, I suspect.....

[West Coast]

"simply use it as expensive ballast is an interesting question....."

Deja vu all over again. I wonder if anyone used these words about the F4 and loading a gun on it as well. Hope it will have a strong centerline station for the mod in 2020.

[Jackonicko]

Westy,

Typhoon has an internal cannon installation. As a last minute cost-saving measure the RAF decided that it didn't want or need the weapon.

Its decision was so last minute that the aircraft are still being delivered with an operable cannon fitted, but the weapon will not be supported in service, will not be serviced (except insofar as is necessary for flight safety) and ammunition, etc. will not be procured.

Removing the weapon altogether would have required the design and clearance of a suitable piece of ballast, and would have impacted on timescales that are already 'stretched'. The weapon may be designed out of Tranche 3 Typhoons for the RAF, but is already part of Tranche 2, I believe.

The other partner nations (and the export customer) are being less parsimonious, and a service gun firing clearance (the manufacturers now have one) is just around the corner.

[SASless]

I do not think the word "cheap" describes that mindset.....I thought we had taught ourselves the fallacy of having a fighter with no gun! Anyone care to harken back to the F-4 Phantom, an all missle fighter...then a fighter with an external gun pod....then finally a fighter with missles and a gun.

Seems like lunacy to now have a gun...but not buy bullets for the damn thing.....course...if one keeps it at home in the hangar then there is no need for either gun nor bullets....that space can be used for carting around your golf clubs and mess dress for those flying holidays.

[Archimedes]

Jacko,

I thought someone fairly senior (I forget who, may have been CAS) told the Commons Select Committee that the plan was not to support the gun in peacetime (i.e. no shooting at a banner, etc, etc), but that it would be brought on line (very quickly) if the RAF found itself going to war?

[Pontius Navigator]

See PM please ****

Archimedes please see PM

[West Coast]

"Typhoon has an internal cannon installation. As a last minute cost-saving measure the RAF decided that it didn't want or need the weapon"

Exactly my point. I wonder if the RAF will later come to regret that decision or will they be able to support it it a later time?
I can see the first conflict the plane returns from, fresh out of missiles. Down below an enemy helo. I hope they can put an external tank if carried through the rotor arc.

[BEagle]

It's probably THE most stupid decision ever made by procurement weanies, WestCoast!

You guys learned the lesson with the F-4; does no-one ever pay attention to the lessons of history?

[GeeRam]

It's probably THE most stupid decision ever made by procurement weanies, WestCoast!

You guys learned the lesson with the F-4; does no-one ever pay attention to the lessons of history?


History shows the same stupid decision was made over 40 years ago with the F.3 Lightning, then changed back again with the F.6 and the cannon fit was reinstated...:rolleyes:

[fingrin]

Small technical point..the F15E has a working gun..

...And it's been used effectively, recently, in the A/G role. Despite the typhoon's superb A/A performance, the gun remains a last ditch A/A weapon - lead has no countermeasure. However, in A/G low CD conflicts, there are many (albeit risky) times when the gun is weapon of choice. Tranche 2/3 without a gun would really limit the commanders A/G options.

As for Typhoon Vs F-15E, even a blind squirrel gets a nut sometimes. Typhoon will be there soon, but right now I know which cockpit I'd rather fight from.

[Pontius Navigator]

And the F15E is quite accurate in the ag role. The only problem might be ammunition effectiveness.

The A10 30mm is of substantially greater mass than the RAF 27/30mm and the F15 20mm is much lighter still.

For the same effect each would need more hits that the A10 with the F15 needing possibly twice as many hits as the Mauser.

[bakseetblatherer]

And (I'll say it again) what will the mighty Typhoon use against a landed Helo in a peacekeeping/making scenario? Or as a warning shot for Q?

[West Coast]

"And (I'll say it again) what will the mighty Typhoon use against a landed Helo in a peacekeeping/making scenario? Or as a warning shot for Q?"

Sort of like what an unarmed cop would do. "Stop or I'll yell stop again"

[ORAC]

Presumably using the same weapon successfully used by the F15E, a PGM*. A lot less risky than descending into indian country...

(*The 335TFS/4TFW claimed an Iraqi Super Frelon kill with a laser guided PGM (F-15E SJ 89-0487) on 13th Feb 1991. It was, however, in the hover and was successfully claimed as an air-to-air kill. So it may not meet your criteria of a landed helo, but the principle holds good... :E )

[Navaleye]

I would have thought that a Brimstone would do the job nicely as long as the helo is willing to hang around for another 6 years.

[trap one]

Casper
Since when don't we fire warning shots?
We do and we will need to in the future. As for an AD platform with a Gun then you always have something that can't be decoyed away by Chaff or Flares.

History is 20-20 and the gun has always been a very potent weapon.

[BEagle]

You might be discussing Operational Policy, so perhaps it's time to STFU about 'warning shots' et al.

[boswell bear]

ere's the fellas:

http://muchos.co.uk/members/boswell/typhoons.jpg (http://www.muchos.co.uk)

[McDuff]

I might be a little late to this thread, but do remember that the F15E "Beagle" force was manned to a large extent by ex-members of the Ardvaark force. That's no great recommendation for a crewing policy ...

RAF chaps could have done loads more with this wonderful machine.

[antipodean alligator]

Would be interested to see if anyone in the RAF would know what to do with a wonderful machine...Given that the last one they had was the Hunter!;)

[jindabyne]

Silly boy - stick to map reading

[Regie Mental]

My recollection is that when the F-15 Mud Hen came into service the USAF didn't transfer crews from the F-111 fleet. Instead they wanted young pilots who came to the jet with open minds, to avoid the 'you don't want to do it like that, you want to do it the way we did it on the Vark'. Suffice to say the Aardvark community was none too pleased.

[Pierre Argh]

For the sake of arguement (and why else do we log one)... So Typhoon walked over an aircraft that first flew in 1972 (33yrs ago)... bit like said first F15 taking on two Spitfires?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

McDuff,

You're failing to appreciate the politics surrounding the purchase of the F-15E and its role within the grand scheme of things. You're also forgetting that less than a year after achieving IOC, the jet was in Iraq blowing the crap out of anything that moved and lots that didn't. Moreover, it was doing so exceptionally well (SCUD hunting issues aside, of course). Perhaps you can tell us all how the RAF would have made more of the jet?

Regie,

There were plenty of F-111 guys that went to the F-15E. The inital cadre was made up mainly of FWS grads from the F-4, F-111 and F-15A/C communities. The guys crewing the first squadrons were all experienced blokes from the F-4/RF-4 and F-111 (Some 1'11 guys at Lakenheath missed out on the F-15E because the B-course/RTU was fully booked in the early years, but there was no deliberate attempt to cut out the F-111 influence as far as I know). There was only a single guy in the first year who came straight to the jet from UPT/LIFT. They actually wanted experienced guys.

[antipodean alligator]

Now now Jindabyne.....I would never question their uncanny ability to perform miracles with crap kit !

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Well what ever did happen (and I was in the bar at EGXE with the F 15 guys post incident) the Typhoon display at linton today was awesome... and definately won a few of the public over as well!