Aircraft Prangs near george..

[sky waiter]

Heard today that two aircarft were damaged in george, one that ran out of fuel and had to do a forced landing in a feild near sedgefield and the other was blown over on the taxiway in 40kts winds, no serious injuries...

Be careful out there wind plays a big part in the lives of us Papa Charlie pilots! :}

[raytheon_aircraft]

now thats unlucky, two in one day. i heard that both planes belonged to the same flying school. the loss of two aircraft in one day from the same organisation. now thats bad luck if i dont say so myself.

[raytheon_aircraft]

local news papers said that it was cessna 150 that lost control of the aircraft after bad winds of 50 - 60 knots. the pilot battled to maintaine altitude and was forced to plummit into the ground.

the other aircraft belonging to the same flying school. a cessna 172 was flipped over onto it's roof on the taxiway because of 50 knot winds.

apparently the c-150 is a rite off.

no major injuries to the pilots. well done to the pilots for coming out of it alive and well.

[Gunship]

Which flying school's aircraft is that ?

Cheers

[Deanw]

Yes, I suppose it would plummit to the ground when you run out of fuel :hmm:

[nyathi]

I know it was the aircraft of Cape Flying Services, I heard that their aircraft was safely in the hanger. Unfortunately both the aircraft belong to Progress Academy near PE. Good luck Progress!:{

Mistake, Sorry, The aircraft belongs to Progress and NOT Cape Flying Services!

[raytheon_aircraft]

DeanW, the plane didnt run out of fuel. it just got caught in a bad windshear. when the plane crashed it had at least 2hours endurance left over.

[Deanw]

If my source was incorrect, then I apologise, but he did seem adamant :uhoh:

[raytheon_aircraft]

no need to apologise, i spoke to a mate of mine who belongs to the same flying school. he said they still had fuel onboard. :ok: :ok:

[IShotTheSherif]

So I guess that it would be -LHK/C172 and ??

That's been coming for many moons - no concept of the dangers of weather. I once had a student stand in front of me and say it's no problem to fly under a CB :\ Go for it :ok: - just don't call me...

Surely when the windspeed is practically exceeding your Vr, you don't decide to do cross countries.. :uhoh:

Where was Johnny?? :suspect: Still trying to sort out -JRY no doubt... 3 down, 4 or so left...

[I.R.PIRATE]

I have to add my cents worth here. I strongly believe that one of the biggest problems facing aviation in South Africa at the moment, is the fact that most of the instructors were 200 hour pilots, with ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE. These people have only just learned how to pass the COMM flight test, and now want to teach others to fly....its a sad sad joke. Go ahead, Crucify me, but if just for one second you take those little blinkers off your eyes, and you think with an open HONEST mind, you will realise. Im not for one second, blaming any of these young instructors, as I know that its the only available employment for many, but it is a cancer that is eating away at the lower layers of aviation in SA, and is causing a MAJOR MAJOR gap in the experience levels of the newer pilots coming up the ranks.

And thus I paint a massive target on my back, and wait.......

[blood brother]

I agree IR Pirate. CAA should have a minimum of say a 1000 hours before one can instruct and pass on some form of valuable knowledge, or act as PIC on a charter aircraft. I think pilots should have real life training as part of his/her (to be politically correct) license make up, such as a CA or Lawyer does in the form of articles. These people would for example make up the cheaper co-pilots that single crew aircraft require on charter. Once you have the 1000 hours you can then act as PIC on light charter aircraft or become an instructor. This would solve many problems. Instructors would then be more specialized and fewer would exist, this would lead to better salaries for them and a possible career in this field to. ?????????

[APR]

IRP,

While I agree that experience is an important part of instruction , I don't think it is the most important part. The instructor needs to know how to teach properly first.
A pilot with lots of experience, and no ability to teach will never be a good instructor!

[raytheon_aircraft]

it was LHK which flipped over at george on the taxiway due the winds. and the other plane was EZS a cessna 150 which crashed in the field.

i do agree with the argument made about flight instructors with minimum hours and teaching people how to fly. but lets look at the facts, would your rather have a new 200 hour comm pilot flying charter or being a possible co-pilot for a airline where many people lives are at risk?

id rather not to be frank. i wouldnt be comfortable knowing that a co-pilot of a boeing is a 200 hours comm pilot.

now i know that a 200 comm pilot wont get a job like that but they gotta start somewhere and instruction is the place to start. thats how it is. :ok:

[I.R.PIRATE]

What you fail to realise raytheon, is that the right hand seat of an airliner, is probably the most sheltered, safest, environment for a 200 hr comm pilot to be. That is exactly where people should be going when they finish their comm. There they will start to LEARN to fly, not just learn to pass a test. Its muuuuuch safer that way, than letting them influence other young pilots, who look up to them as Gods, and hang on every word they say.

APR, in this game of ours, by knowing the basics, you should just survive, if youre lucky. However, knowledge is POWER here, and yes I do agree that the ability to teach properly does not exist in everyone. BUT , fact is that these instructors, have only just gotten their skill levels up to a standard basic enough to pass their comm test, they do not have the flying skills, or the knowledge to teach anything but the absolute basics. And as I said, yes, you should survive with just the basics, but its normally when the faeces hits the fan, that these pilots with nothing but the basics, find themselves up that ol' creek. They were told about the paddle, but have no idea how to use it. I firmly believe that the number 1 skill that only experience can teach, is GOOD SOLID DECISION MAKING. Study most light aircraft accidents, and you shouldnt be surprised to find that in 99% of the cases, it was a poor, uninformed decision that lies at the heart of the problem. Thats what im getting at.

[sky waiter]

While i am in total agreement with Mr Pirate,

I would love to get a comm and jump into the right and seat of a boeing, and my bet is so would every other instructor out there however once they are there how many would want to go back and instruct?

Charter job? What charter job the market is effectively dead with the regional airliners that now operate and there requirement is 1000hrs... Lets see what else is available? Contract? Ok UN and insurance requirements also state 1000hrs so now that narrows it down even further... If im lucky i might get right hand seat on a VAN earning a pittance until i get 1500hrs an atp and then captaincy.

So while i am in agreement the job situation is so bad at the moment how else is a 200hr pilot going to get a job? Pay for another 800hrs to gain the experience, look at how that is slated on other threads?

If i had the choice i would love to move but looking for work when already paying off the bank loans and then trying to fork out more for expensive ratings makes it difficult so instruction it is. Only way to get the hours so please dont take that away from the ever decreasing job pool for 200hr pilots!!:cool:

[shake rattle n roll]

Hmmm.....seems that it was indicated that windshear was the cause of the accident. Well wether you have 1 hour or 20 000 hours of so called experience, if you are past the limits of the performance of the aircraft, you are in trouble. It is not the number of hours that is going to save you, rather an understanding what the limits of your particular aircraft are....having said this there are some pilots at 200hours experience who outfly and perform some of those with a few thousand hours of experience. So it is a fallacy that you have to have X number of hours of experience to be capable of passing on basic instructional techniques, which I might add is limited to the students capabilities to absorb the amount of information being imparted. It is due rather to the individuals attitude and skill, who is imparting the knowledge, that counts....his attitude to, listening, learning, as well as his interest in passing on the experience he has gained, however limited it may be.
The moral of the story, know your limits and know the aircrafts limits.

[I.R.PIRATE]

Once more, absolutely corrext, HOWEVER, the winds in that area were basically gale force all day, or would you now attribute the taxiway flipover to windshear too. It certainly takes some experience to make an educated decision, or whether to fly or not, and where to do it.

And please dont talk about earning a pittance. All the youngsters these day will pull up their noses at a job that pays R4000 p/m. Spoilt little snob brats. Probably expected to be rich like Daddy in a year or so.... I have always found that for some or other " uncanny" (read obvious) reasons, the pilots that have started out, earning a pittance, and who have worked themselves up through the ranks, are inevitably easier to work, and live with, and in my opinion make far superior pilots than those who never had to make a living from a mere pittance, while actually learning the ropes in their CHOSEN profession.

Remember one important fact regarding the industry these days. Supply and demand. The market is overflowing with pilots at the moment, but unfortunately, these's not even nearly enough flying to go around. So if operators want to pay " pittances " then its up to them....If you dont want the job, stop crying and move out the way, because there I guarantee you that there is someone who will grab at such an opportunity, and appreciate it much more than someone who reckons he can just buy his/her way into the cockpit, and demand big bucks. Sad but true.!!!!

[shake rattle n roll]

Do I contribute the flipover due to windshear?........Yes I certainly do!
Do you get windshear on the ground yes.......check your profiles, ie. take off!
What is the definition of windshear, amongst others, a sudden increase or decrease in speed caused by environmental factors. The fact that the taxying a/c was obviously not near flying speed does not make it immune to windshear!....or does that only happen near V1 and VR?
As to all being spoilt snobs....well it sounds like you suffer from a case of sour grapes.
As to a right hand seat of a flight deck being a sheltered environment....man are you mistaken. Firstly, a crew is not just the captain, however, captain, first officer and if required flight engineer as well. Secondly, I will remind you that being in the position of first officer or co pilot,however you wish to name it, he is second in command of that particular aircraft, wether it is a 737 or a 747! His responsibility is the same. If the captain croaks, he is in command, and he had better do his job, otherwise all with him are in for it. I will remind you of DanAir. Lastly, if he is not in the seat with the attitude of captain under training he should not be there. Again depending on his attitude he will either benefit from it or not, the same as the 1 hour pilot or the 1000x 1 hour pilot

[I.R.PIRATE]

1st. My grapes are pretty shweet thanks

2nd. All who pull their noses up at less glamourous jobs
....if the shoe fits.

3rd. The fact that the wind was galeforce all day?

4th. What speed does a C-172 take-off at?

5th. What was the windspeed at the time of incident.

Doesnt take a genius you clown. Windshear sounds like such an intelligent response to the question, " Why did the aircraft damage itsself (obviously not the pilot's fault.) when tossing around in 50-60 kt winds.

ps:please share some more of your knowledge and inform me what the V1 of a light Cessna is?? Think I must have missed it in my Pass Your PPL book

[shake rattle n roll]

Seeing you asked, you clown...depends on field limit, obstacle limit, VMBE, tyre speed limit and a few other factors....so maybe now your little PPL book is now upto date......or perhaps you can just hover it...some technique you may have invented, then possibly you don't have a V1.
Maybe when you grow up you will be able to wear some stripes just like those airline pilots, until then keep on trying...

[orgasmotron]

My 2 cents worth. Mr. Shake Rattle n Roll, I do not know anything regarding your experience levels or current status in the flying fraternity, but I think you lack a few basic rules regarding airline flying.

Let's just look at the difference between a 200 hour charter pilot nd the 200 hour FO on a medium jet or prop airliner.

200 hour FO:

1 month ground school consisting of:
- Techical Course
- Performance
- SOP's
-AWOPS
-EPT
-CPT

Simulator training:
- 6 to 12 4 hour sessions in which the FO will also demonstrate his ability handle the aircraft in an emergency situation with the captain inop.

Base Training:
- 6 cicuits with engine inop landing & go-around

Line Training:
Min 6 sectors with training captain.
Min 14 sectors with check captain.
Rostered with only senior captains for 3 months.

Not to mention all the recurrent training and checking.

200 hour charter pilot:

3 circuits and 2 page technical exam.

I think I will put my money on the 200 hour FO.

There is a reason why airlines have the best safety records compared to general aviation and charter flying. It is not so much experience as it is a healthy combination of experience and excellent training on each flight deck.

[ou Trek dronkie]

... "depends on field limit, obstacle limit, VMBE, tyre speed limit and...etc "

If we are talking about light Cessnas, the above don't come into the equation, neither does V1.

But maybe I misunderstood the reference, what with all the rather nasty invective flying about. Undignified and reduces the impact of the point of view.

Hope this helps.

oTd

[I.R.PIRATE]

Yes, OTD, thats why its called sarcasm....and yes, it is the lowest form of wit....HOWEVER, I really feel the need to understand how one derives a V1 for ANY single engined aircraft?? I guess you can try and hide knowledge behind mind blowing terms like ," field limit...(?), VBME, obstacle limit," etc etc.

Pick on someone your own size Shayte Crapple and Crawl, look at the flight schools (ppl lecture room prob), for someone you can baffle with bullsh1t, I'm not buying.

:zzz: :hmm:

[krobar]

Personally, I have more respect for a 500hr TT pilot that gained his experience as an instructor, than a 500hr metroliner pilot that bought his experience.
Showing students stalls and spins is some of the best experience available...
Gone are the days where you can walk into the cockpit of a caravan with 300hrs. These days 1000hrs minimum, just cause of the hundreds of pilots still hanging in the tree.