Anybody Knows How many Self-TypeRated are Unemployed?

[pedroe]

Hi guys and girls,

Does Anybody Knows the number of pilots already self-sponsored type rated and still unemployed after all?

Any tips on the next future, 1/2 years ahead?

Gracias

[haughtney1]

I dont think that you will get many responses to this...I could be wrong...
(I certainly wouldnt want to admit that Id spent £20k..and was still out of a job)

Sign of the times it seems....

[Pofesional]

Well, from what I know, only in Spain there are about 150 pilots with the A320 type rating currently unemployed. This information comes from Aeromadrid. I don't know in other countries.

Hope this help.

[spaceman1000]

150? for all spain, is that a lot?

so,who is type rated?, and who is pissed, and who want his money back????

:p

[Pofesional]

Don't you think that 150 pilots A320 type rated unemployed ONLY in Spain, most of them with more that 1500 total time, are not a huge amount of them? If you add the ones from UK, France, Italy, Germany... you will have almost 1000 A320 pilots looking for a job. If you still consider an A320 type rating as a good investment, well....
And I am sure if you ask to most of them if they want they money back, I think that we all know the answer: OF COURSE.

[RowleyUK]

They should all be out of a job if they paid for their own TR without a job guarantee !!!!! :ooh: :ooh:


They ruin it for the rest of us!!!!!


Harsh but true!!

[tom24]

They should all be out of a job if they paid for their own TR without a job guarantee !!!!!

Rowley, how can you justify this comment?

There appear to be a lot of bitter, presumably unemployed, pilots out there. When you come into this game you should be as prudent as possible. Budget for a type rating, as like it or not it appears to be the norm more and more.

We all agree that its not fair, but its the way of the World. Yes, its thanks to the loco carriers, but without the loco carriers there would be a good few hundred less jobs out there at the moment.

I think it takes the average guy 6-36 months for their first commercial jobs. If you have the cash, then these Astraeus/Wizz/Storm schemes are a bloody good fast track route to the RHS.

[spaceman1000]

considering a plane needs 8 to 10 pilots. the 150 unemployed pilots can fill an order of 15 airbus .

150 type rated pilots is not a lot for a whole country like Spain.

[Pofesional]

Do you really think that 1 Airbus A320 really needs 8 to 10 F/O? wonder which world you live in. 150 A320 unemployed are not a lot?Don't try to justify what is unjustifiable.

[sir.pratt]

to provide 24/7 coverage, you're gonna need at least 5 crews

[Bart Simson]

Tom24

I think "Rowley UK" has a point.

Yes it is the way of the world to pay for your own rating with loco's, but it ain't worth doing unless you have a job guarantee.

Otherwise, If you dont get a job within a couple of months your rating is just about worthless.


Good luck to eveyone that is searching.

:ok:

[LEVC]

What is failing in your calculations is that the biggest airline in spain is Iberia and has a fleet of less than 140 aircrafts all models included, i would say that perhaps 75% are Airbus of the 32x series , that would be a total of about 110 A320/A319/A321 , 5 crews means 5 F/O per aircraft so the fleet must be increassed of some 30 aircraft , wich means 25 % of the airbus fleet in say 2 years .....................
Not in the best of your optimistic dreams would you see that, if you have any doubt check the fleet growth of the spanish companies in the last years.

Take in account that countries like Spain do not have a big aeronautical industry like other countries do (UK for instance).

Please be realistic, a TR with no job is flushing the money trough the WC.


:}

[spaceman1000]

so where are the type rated pilots, apparently they are not reading or posting on this forum.

what about this school in Germany who says half of their new type rated pilots find a job within 1 year?(OK, they can say anything as long you pay)

what about China, and all these new Eastern Europe Low cost airlines.

Do you think really that someone will call you and pay you for your type?. Be realist, the fuel is expensive, airlines have to be competitive...,many low hours pilots with no experience,

Who they would hire: me with a type rating or you with no type rating?

at the end, it is all about MONEY! it is not about you!

[El Desperado]

Hmmm... bear in mind that when you (as an airline) buy an Airbus, for example, they throw in 5 or 6 sim courses with it. This means that the training costs are associated with line (and therefore revenue earning) flying.

Sometimes having a type-rating works, sometimes it doesn't. There really is no right or wrong answer to this. Some airlines prefer to train their own people, some will pick a self type-rated person and run a differences course.

In the UK the growth is in the 'work for us for six months for nothing, we'll give you a type-rating and some experience' scheme.' Personally, I don't like these things - they undermine pay and conditions for everyone else but I do understand why people opt for them, especially when you're behind on the repayments for your integrated ATPL course....

[BigGrecian]

Astraeus/Wizz/Storm schemes are a bloody good fast track route to the RHS.

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with you on the comment above - with regards to where such schemes ask you pay for line training etc..
Yes it is good for personal gain but not for anyone else other than the airline involved.

Paying to sit in the RHS of a jet with fare paying passengers in it is taking the biscuit - and I'm probably not the only one who is disappointed that the industry and some people will stoop to such levels. You wouldn't pay to drive a bus / train, you wouldn't pay to do ANY other job where customers are paying.

There are plenty of other employers who will pay you to sit in the RHS!

[tom24]

Yes it is good for personal gain but not for anyone else other than the airline involved

May sound harsh, but i have myself to look after and personally couldn't give a hoot about anyone else competing with me....

You wouldn't pay to drive a bus / train

We do this job because its our life time dream. I don't know any train drivers that love their jobs. Bus drivers fear for their safety most of the time. I'll ask the bus driver later how much he loves his job and let you know.

There are plenty of other employers who will pay you to sit in the RHS

Very true, but after waiting so long, there is only so much one can take.

At the end of the day there will be those who agree and those who disagree. I'm guessing that those who disagree are the ones without the financial resources. Tell me, if you could afford it, would you do it? Course you would.

[BigGrecian]

No I wouldn't pay to sit in the right hand seat with fare paying passengers. I think a poll would probably back my side up as well.

Anyway its just in IMHO!

[Megaton]

I could afford it but didn't. I waited until I was offered a proper job in the RHS.

[152wiseguy]

The way I see it is that if you're at work you should be getting paid for it, not doing it for free and certainly not paying to do it.

On your line training you are flying fare paying passengers and fulfilling the airline's requirement to have a pilot in the rhs. Sure you're still training and have a lot to learn but that's the way it is when starting any job.

It's a really desperate pilot that pays to go to work.

[DeltaT]

are there any airlines anyplace taking on newly rated 737 pilots with no time on type?

[ALV2500]

This may solve part of the problem.

Airbus confirms that Iberia have signed for the purchase of 30 single isle aircraft on July 8th 2005.

Happy flying, AL



AL

[Mintflavour]

for what its worth I would not pay for a type rating if I could afford it

[BlueVolta]

Yes there are airlines taking guys just rated on the 737 with no hours....

[737oli]

You again Blue Volta;)

You are true but it's hard to find a good one.

I'm waiting the next double six;)

[Skunkworks]

tom24;

We do this job because its our life time dream.

Let's try to be a bit rational then and keep it a JOB - the way people are acting today this is quickly turning into a (rather expensive) hobby.


May sound harsh, but i have myself to look after and personally couldn't give a hoot about anyone else competing with me....

Now THIS may sound harsh, but I have bills to pay and as long as people like you are prepared to do anything at any price my chance of paying those bills in the long run is getting smaller!


So where do YOU draw the line then? Pay for TR, pay for TR + Line Training, work for free, pay to "work"?


You say that you "couldn't give a hoot about anyone else" - well you don't have to say that, it's quite obvious. What does offend me is that, that "anyone" is me and every other pilot in this business! Even though I'm not "competing with you" I think it is getting harder for management to justify why they should pay me a proper salary for a days work, when others are prepared to do it for free!

[Canada Goose]

I hope the people who joined EU Jet as SO's, paid the £8k for their Fokker 100 TR's only to start off on £16k'ish feel that it was worth it !!!!

............. read on another thread that the guy running the show was taking about £2400 a day for himself out of the business !

When will people wise up ................ DON'T PAY FOR YOUR OWN TYPE RATING !!!!

Nuff said
:*

[tom24]

Dear oh dear some of you just don't get it.

Skunkworks, believe it or not I do feel sorry for yours and a lot of other peoples predicament but I’m not going to sit around waiting for airlines to come knocking on my door whilst other people out there get off their asses and do something about their predicaments and take up these offers!

Canada Goose. Why don't you think before you blab? These guys have paid £8,000 (though I heard it was £6k). They have probably amassed over 500 hours on jets and will probably walk into a job in the not too distant future. Go on, tell me i should do an instructors rating instead and earn £10k a year instead of £16k....

Myself, I probably wouldn't have subscribed to this idea as it was probably doomed from the start. Anybody with an ounce of understanding of the working World would have been able to predict that this airline had a limited life.

People STOP being so ignorant. You take your chances, you make your luck.

[Skunkworks]

You are so right - some of us just don't get it!


From your post last week:
Have you considered doing something constructive, i.e. self-sponsoring a type. Lets face it, if you don't do that, the chances are you'll be instructing on a 152 or flying TP's on a low salary for the next three years. You may as well just take the extra financial hit now and you'll more than break even within 3 years flying a 737/A320. You'll also be 3 years closer to command. Its not rocket science really. If you say you can't afford it, then that's your problem as you should have realised from the start that having to self-sponsor a type to get ahead would be a real possibility.

This is the problem! You expect to come straight out of Flight School and then start flying a 737 or an Airbus! You and your buddies think that you can "get ahead" by selling yourselves cheaper than the "competition".

You are talking about command. I'm sure that when a vacancy comes along in the LHS, you will be prepared to pay for the Command training and to stay on your FO salary - just to "get ahead".

It would be interesting if you answered the question I asked in the previous post - Where do YOU draw the line for what you are prepared to do to get the job?


[Edit: Accidentally pressed submit half-way through the post.]

[tom24]

I'd please the Chief Pilots woman........

Skunk, its my opinion and the way I'd do things. I'm not there yet but I have considered every possible eventuality and all I'll say is that I'll want to recoup my training costs ASAP and from there I hope to go on and live a comfortable life. I really hope that I won't be faced with your problems, but one thing is for sure, if I do I won't be lurking around these forums day in day out trawling through peoples past posts, because that certainly will not solve any problems.

[jamestkirk]

TOM24

Your post is assuming:

1. Everyone has the money to pay for a TR
2. That pilots who are in debt to a large amount CAN take the financial hit, especially if they have mortgages and families.
3. Someone ACTUALLY wants to hire you.

Ideas are alot easier said than done.

An FI rating is generally 1/4 of the price of a TR and keeps people flying. I agree a C152 is not the best aircraft in the world to prepare you for a RHS on a A320.

Please remeber that alot of the frustrations are born out of the the fact that if we could pay for a TR, honestly, we probably would.

Some cynics say that if you want it bad enough you have to take the steps to get a job. These are probably the same individuals who have had everything paid for by someone else. Thats not a bitter view, just an observation of the plethora of varied characters in aviation.

It woukld be great if there is a shortage of pilots in the near future. Then, the posts would be entitled "the cheeky ba@tards at x airline had the front to ask me for some money".

[calypso]

Tom, the way you go on you will be very popular in the crewroom if and when you get there.

[RowleyUK]

Tom24....Sorry i didnt reply last month

A few things for you to consider when your planning your Type Rating:

1. Type courses are never easy or cheap! The more complex the A/C the worse it gets. Thats a bad thing to start.......say, for example, it was 15k and it was an A320. With just 250hrs it would be very technical and incredibly difficult and with the pressure of having to pass the LST, I personally, would be very close to braking point! I wouldnt want to come out the other end of a type course having failed my LST...............and it does happen!!!
If an airline was paying for it then there would be less pressure because your airline would almost certainly pay for a few additional hours if you needed it. On top of that the examiner would probably be in house and hoping/helping you pass.

2. You will ruin the T&C's for everyone else including yourself. I've got my job now and only today I was discussing how I am one of a new generation of pilots,that being the low paid ones with nothing much to look forward to! As the captain to my left has a large house,nice car, big pay cheque and comfortable life......I on the other hand have naff all and my T&C's dictate it will stay that way for a long time! In fact i dont earn enough to get a mortgage!

3. It is generally looked down upon by most pilots who didnt pay for their own training. How that would make your relations on the flight deck with captains, i dont know. You certainly wont be able to hold your head up high and say you worked damn hard to get that job.

4. You should take a stand against stupid dumb ass schemes like the SSTR's. I for one can say that i was in a pretty desperate situation before i got my job. However, I never once applied to Ryanair......I worked hard and plugged away till something came good!

5. Airlines like to train you to their own SOP's/standards.......You probably wouldnt be much use to an airline without time on type and knowledge of their working SOP's. Recently a friend of mine was told by an airline that they were to take him with a TR that they hadn't trained him to then thy would have to untrain him again to get him to the right standard.......................Basically it is frowned upon by alot of airlines even you have the TR that they operate! strange but true!!!


6. There will always be a situation where people can pay for their job and as a training captain said to me not long ago: "there are people who dont need to pay for jobs and there are people who do!" ...............Now ask yourself, would you want to be one of those pilots who had to pay for his/her job when your colleagues had theres paid for them!


Just to cover my own ass:
Yeah i paid for my own basic training but never paid for anything else! I got my job with low hours through lots of begging and pleading! Never once did i apply to an airline where i would have to pay for my own training nor did i contemplate doing my own TR!

In general Tom24 and everyone else, its not a good idea!!

[Arrowhead]

So here goes for thost that did SSTRs (and line training)....

I know many people who did SSTRs. I know of only one that walked straight into a job, and that was with EZY before they stopped taking zero-houred pilots (outside the bizarre CTC selection/course).

All the rest of the guys who paid for their SSTRs also paid for some line training. 2 now work for Monarch. 1 for Ryanair. 1 for Air Asia. 2 at Livingstone. 1 at Eurofly. And another six or so (including me) flying the A320 in the Far East, and dont want to come back to the land of tax, traffic jams, bad weather, crime, etc.

If you look at why airlines dont want zero-houred guys, its because jets are really very different. You have a different set of skills and experience to those the airlines require. 1500TT on 152s or shepherding PPLs around in a PA28 really bears very little relation to programming the computer/managing the FCU to fly 70 tonnes in tightly-controlled airspace using minimum fuel/time. Also, landing technique is much more precise (ie less forgiving), handling/momentum is a big issue, and most importantly personality is everything. Many of the people on the boards here demonstrate either a lack of maturity. Really, how would you like to sit next to many of the guys who post on the boards here, for eight or nine hours non-stop, with no-one else to talk to? And God forbid there was a technical problem....

So guys, stop thinking all your single-crew light prop hours make you attractive. If you are deadly serious, and somewhat impatient, start thinking about the total economics of a type rating/line training followed by years of an FO salary. You will soon see that instructing or boring circles in the sky pays less/costs you more (net) over 3 years, and you may still never get you into the right seat of a jet.

If the job market really picks up over the next year, we can all celebrate at how minimal jet experience and bizarre personality tests will be put away. Until then, I would encourage everyone to at least speak to AeroMadrid, Eaglejet and Contractair....

[X-Pilot]

The Eaglejet and Contractair programs are completely stopped at the moment. If you are able to wait for at least one year then go ahead, but they are not going to guarantee you a date. It is not as easy as Arrowhead is telling

[747 Downwind]

Rowley UK:

I take it that the majority of us who ramble on this site are self-sponsored (whether it be integrated or modular), if we were airline sponsored (like the fortunate few!) then we wouldn't be waffling on about these topics. Hence, if you pay for your initial training I can not see any moral difference in paying for a SSTR or indeed an Instructors Rating.

Surely the flying schools have an obligation to pay for instructors ratings but they don't, just as many airlines don't pay for type ratings. You state that airlines frown upon those who have SSTR on their own a/c type... Ryanair run their own, Easyjet take CTC (who pay a proportion of the TR), Monarch take CTC, Thomsonfly ask for £10 000 to be repayed over 5 years (that's about half the cost), Channex have run a SSTR, FlyGlobespan have run a SSTR etc etc and many others take type rated low hour pilots.

Morally you are right Rowley, it does screw up T+Cs and salaries and yes it isn't right.. but the market is so competitive with new start ups going under within their first few years of trading, airlines have to economise in every department.

Your training captain friend said there are those who need to pay for jobs and those who don't.. let him answer this:

I had all the credentials in terms of groundschool exams, flying results, educational background, training school, age et. BA et al wouldn't give me an interview cos I graduated at the wrong time (ie: too long out of flight school), UK majors wouldn't touch me cos I didn't have 1500hrs, 500 jet BLAH BLAH BLAH, and the turboprop and piston guys want at least 7-800 hours BLAH BLAH:{

So I decided either SSTR or Instructor Rating so people would take me seriously.. and now they are starting to and I have not even completed my course. I sympathise for those who can not afford a SSTR.. the world isn't fair, but you can't just buy a SSTR or Instructor rating u still need to pass it.

Many people are getting jobs via SSTR so I do recommend it.. if U don't get a job.. well you were 30 000-75 000 in the red now it's another 20 000-30 000! You not losing anything else as you're already a gambler.

Congrats on getting your job Rowley, it would be nice to see more low hour guys getting direct jobs with no strings attached.. all the best to everyone else

74 Downwind:ok:

[Turkish777]

Why dont you stand outside the Recruiting Officers front door, pull your pants down and take one up the arse that might help you get a job...or maybe go round the Training Captains house and wash his car or mow his lawn.....christ all mighty you sound desperate lad.....do you enclose a 50 pound gift voucher on your job application form...that might work....:E

[FLYbyWIT]

Heavens no, AT LEAST 100 quid and a months free acess to my sisters website.:E

[StudentInDebt]

1500TT on 152s or shepherding PPLs around in a PA28 really bears very little relation to programming the computer/managing the FCU to fly 70 tonnes in tightly-controlled airspace using minimum fuel/time
I guess thats why my employer recruited me to fly 180 tonnes of aeroplane, I obviously had too many "single-crew, light-prop" hours to be trusted to fly a mere 70 tonnes. :cool:
So guys, stop thinking all your single-crew light prop hours make you attractive. If you are deadly serious, and somewhat impatient, start thinking about the total economics of a type rating/line training followed by years of an FO salary. You will soon see that instructing or boring circles in the sky pays less/costs you more (net) over 3 years, and you may still never get you into the right seat of a jet.
Oh and they paid for my type-rating and all my line training, that plus the expense claims and cost of accomodation during my course!! This far exceeded the 3 years salary I was paid whilst instructing, what a terrible deal, I should have paid for it all myself :D

If you have undertaken an SSTR then fair play, if you have done so and gotten a job then even better. Please remember that there are more ways to skin a cat though and whilst you may find instructing an unattractive route there are many of us who took it and actually enjoyed it even though we moaned (alot) at the time :ok:

[tom24]

Why dont you stand outside the Recruiting Officers front door, pull your pants down and take one up the arse that might help you get a job

Turkish you bell-end, pissing myself laughing at that one. You've gotta retain some kinda humour in this mad house!

:ok:

[Turkish777]

Haha all good fun Tom Thumb :ok:

[hixton]

Arrowhead check your pm inbox

[sabre 60]

Tiger Airways, Singapore's low fare airline is looking for individuals,for the A 320 (posted on the flightinternational site)

No time on type required,the magic word is "self funding".

A good chance for those Frozen ATPL guys/girls who already decided to pay there way in to the right seat of what seems a logical order to some;PA 28 - PA 28R - PA 34 - A320.

It might take some of you clowns of the EU market and make some room for the turbo prop guys.

Please pack your bags and

:mad: off.

[RVR800]

In answer to the original question as to how many people with a type rating get a job there is one organisation that knows all this and a whole lot more. The UK CAA. The medical data will show how many hours on type and they know the number of type ratings issued.

[zerograv]

Arrowhead

AeroMadrid .... "been there, done that"
Is still there the option of paying for line training with your current employer? Was it through Eagle or Contractair?
PM me if you prefer.

Safe flights,
Zerograv

[POL.777]

Selfsponsored ratings are here to stay, stop telling us that we are illoyal or that we are ruining everything for the rest of you. If there where lots of GA jobs around, I am sure that the number of pilots going for a selfsponsored rating would be very limited. In my experience its very hard to get to fly parachuters in a C182 for free, there are not many air taxi companys around anymore, and instructor jobs are very hard to find.

I got my CPL MCC MEP last year. Went for a rating 8 months ago, and now I am flying. There are a few airlines who hire people with no hours on type - I believe Travelservice is hiring F/O's now.

Safe landings

[Arrowhead]

Student in debt - wow! piston to heavy jet in one leap, and all paid for. Congrats. Never heard of that before. You should be very very pleased. If you are for real, you should post your story here since it would inspire many.

Zerograv - line training is available at my current employer, although places are very limited. Suggest you try both Eagle and Contractair since both have great contacts there.

Sabre 60 - I agree that PA-anything to medium jet bears no relation. However, we should all remember that this was the norm pre 9/11...

If you can get a job without paying, then great. And you gotta try. After that, your type rating and line training costs equal approx one years take home pay as an A320/737 FO in a low-tax Asian environment....

[lobsterbisque]

arrowhead, i was under the impression that in china you need at least 1000hrs on type, at least that is what air china came back to me with, I would love to work in far east and yes will pay for a type rating (a320) and yes i speak mandarin (unfortunatly dragonair are out as i don't have HK residency, I'm just a happy brit). I put this out there rather than pm you as i think your advice may help out a few others who are probably in the same boat.

[StudentInDebt]

Arrowhead

My story is quite simple, BCPL and FI rating in 1999/2000, started instructing in June 2000, completed the IR in May 2001 and upgraded to full CPL, applied to every airline out there, got interview and sim ride with large UK charter outfit, no jobs due to the events of Sep 11th. One year later re-interviewed and 6 months after that finished instructing and started the type rating, on the line 3 months later. I am not the only inexpensive modular school/instructor to be taken on either.

Unfortunately the free aspect of becoming an employee at my airline has now been removed thanks to the influence of the low-cost airlines, you now have to contribute half of your training bond (£10k) and pay it back out of your salary over a couple of years. Management have also come under the spell of CTC and we have taken quite a few guys from their scheme.

[Arrowhead]

Eaglejet's Asian A320 programme last required 500TT when I looked. But they may have changed the rules over the last year or so, since I believe there is quite a queue...