View Full Version : VIRGIN A380!!!
gyrohead
26th Apr 2001, 15:41
What a shocker!! or was it only to be expected??...
European plane maker Airbus said on today that British carrier Virgin Atlantic had signed a firm contract for six A380 superjumbos, confirming the commitment it made to the plane in December.
Airbus has announced commitments from airlines for 62 of the giant 555-seat airliners, that are scheduled to enter service in 2006. But Virgin is the first carrier to sign a definitive contract for the plane.
Airbus said Virgin planned to equip its superjumbos with casinos and duty free shops. It will operate the plane on routes to the United States.
Desk Driver
26th Apr 2001, 16:02
I think the Duty Free Shops & Casinos will be in the seatback screen as part of an Interactive entertainment centre. I just can't see VS giving up so many seats on an aircraft for actual walk around shops etc
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You fly em we'll fill em!
Reimers
26th Apr 2001, 16:41
When I think of duty-free shops aboard an aircraft, images produced by airbus spring to my mind, but I wonder if the largest duty free shop ever seen on any aircraft will rather consist of a couple of trolleys arranged in the galley in such a manner that allows people (one or two max.) to stand in between them and maybe grab the stuff they think they need themself rather than being handed to them with a friendly smile.
Yeah,
Reimers is probably right.
It's all about the money, and I don't see airlines replacing money earning seats by stupid "souvenirs" shops, swimming pools, casinos or whatever.
It will depend on the airline's policy and market. I guess a few companies will have some of their A380s equipped like luxury cruisers : The price will be high for passengers.
Most A380s will load a maximum pax load. When you see how many people Corsair can seat in a 747 classic, just imagine what they could do with a A380.
I think Airbus made the right choice with their A380 design. The fact that it offers some much space makes it unbeatable. If airlines do things right, the aircraft will be a favorite with passengers, and I don't imagine any major airline buying the improved 747 instead. From a passengers' point of view, the new 747 will not be much of a change, if at all (although the 747-400, 400LR (with 777 technology) are incredible planes from a pilot's point of view).
For exemple, as SIA and QANTAS buy A380s, I don't imagine Cathay buying the 747LR instead, except maybe for thinner or more regional routes.
The sky has a new queen. I prefered the Boeing, but must admit Airbus did a very good job. Very clever. Airlines do order the Airpig. It works ...
Regards.
Ben
Drop and Stop
26th Apr 2001, 17:11
A bit before my time, but didn't the 747 when it first came online, have an upperdeck bar? How long did that last?
Drop and Stop, yes you right. The first 747s had a bar in the upper deck and early (UAL I think) DC 10s had a piano bar in the rear of Y class, all until some worked out that you could actually put seats (read $$$) in the same place. I may be wrong, and those in the know please correct me, but i am fairly sure that when Qantas introduced, to the world, busniess class (sorry about the spelling) they asked Boeing to shift the aft bulk head on the top deck and add windows (and no, Im not talking 747-300) If you compare early -100s, with say 3 windows on the upper deck and latter model -200s with 12 or 13 windows on the upper deck, you can see, it went quickly from a bar to a revenue raiser. If Im wrong in any of this, people please respond.
Bellerophon
26th Apr 2001, 22:10
SOPS
You're correct. In June 1971 a QANTAS B747-200B was the first B747 to have 10 windows on each side of the upper deck, instead of the usual three. It was fitted out as a Captain Cook Lounge for First Class passengers.
Most airlines started with bars or lounges on the upper deck and American Airlines even had a bar and piano in Coach Class of their B747s in the early seventies.
However, in due course the accountants prevailed, and the rest is history!
More facts and photos available, for those interested, in a book called Boeing 747 - The First Twenty Years by Jim Lucas
skywaytoheaven
26th Apr 2001, 22:24
But didn't some of the -100s also have 10 windows either side? Pan Am and TWA examples mainly.
On a 500 seat airliner income from a duty free shop could offset quite a large reduction in number of seats, I think. Given the opportunity many tourist-class pax would probably shop like there's no tomorrow.
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"Recovery was marginal..."
Rollingthunder
26th Apr 2001, 23:46
If I remember correctly, gambling is prohibited on aircraft in-bound to the US or out-bound from the US. Any carrier.
The reason that the aircraft used to have lounges in them was that prices were set by the Civil Aeronautics board back before the US airlines were deregulated.
As they could not drop their prices when they couldn't fill the aircraft, the only way that the airlines could get more people on them was to add more services (including bars, lounges etc.) so as to lure passengers away from the competitors.
However, as soon as the economy picked up and they were able to fill the aircraft at the seat prices that they were allowed to charge, all of that changed, and the lounges, dining rooms etc were instantly gone, and with deregulation NEVER to return.
You will never see a return to that. There is no market for it. There are premium business pax, and these guys want to go DIRECT, and if they can't go direct on your aircraft they will buy a gulfstream and go direct on their own aircraft. The other 90 percent shop by price alone.
As to shopping on the aircraft. TWA tried that under Carl Icahn. He forced the flight attendants to operate rolling stores.
It was possibly the greatest aviation flop of all times. Icahn figured he had a captive audience. He was dead wrong, and look where TWA is today.
You should study the history of the industry, its fascinating.
Cheers
Wino
604driver
27th Apr 2001, 13:29
Gulf Air used to have a Bar between first class and economy on their Tri-Stars when they were new. The tables used to fold out to card playing tables and there were even showcases displaying the duty froo goods on offer.
The first class config was 2-2-2. The middle two chairs used to spin round to face the pax behind you so you could enjoy a dinner for 4.
However, when they started flying to Bangkok, the Rolexes in the display cabinet were exchanged for fake ones by unscrupulous passengers, the hermes scarfs suffered the same fate. GF lost a bundle. Eventually i think they went to high density config to fly the third world labourers around.
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Big Johnson Casinos "Liquor up front Poker in the rear"
Benny
27th Apr 2001, 14:49
Virgin Atlantic STILL have a bar on board for Upper Class passengers. Very nice it is too!
Desk Driver
27th Apr 2001, 17:10
Very True Benny ..But.. Walk around Shops and a Casino....Not now. If Pax numbers are going to Triple and Runway space is'nt, then we'll just have to pack'em in bigger aircraft.
Just a thought, how would you play Roulette in mild turbulence?
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You fly em we'll fill em!
Benny
27th Apr 2001, 17:14
Driver
I totally agree with you. It might all seem wonderful thinking up these ideas for shops, casinos, etc. but can any airline afford to fly with a less than full aircraft? That's why, sadly, these ideas will remain on the drawing board.
joebloggs
30th Apr 2001, 07:11
Unfortunately Airbus have failed to take the views of Airport opperators into account when designing this wonderous machine. The additional wing span prevents it from using many international gates. The double decker design cannot be serviced by catering trucks which do not have the height to get to the upper deck. Turn round times will be increased to get 600 pax on and off. There is no airport willing to invest in double decker airbridges to make use of the upper doors. The Gate lounges at many airports will not accommodate the 600 pax. etc. etc... Big may be beautiful, but NO airports in the world can handle this beast yet. The additional infrastructure costs may kill the bird before it gets the commercial go ahead.
Galah
30th Apr 2001, 08:16
The prospect of any airline offering shopping/casino/gym facilities on the 380 (or any other aircraft) seems ridiculous when you consider the warnings you get about keeping seatbelts fastened. All flights I have been on in the last few years either "request" or "require" all passengers to keep their seatbelts fastened during the flight. Surely no airline would risk a lawsuit by encouraging passengers to walk around the cabin during flight to visit the bar, gym or shop!
HotDog
30th Apr 2001, 11:46
I don't think the extra wingspan (79.81m) will pose too much of a problem. The B744 has a wingspan of 64.4m which is only 7.7m shorter per side. As for overall length, the B773 is 73.9m long against 70.6m of the A-380. The same arguments were brought forth when the B747 was first announced. The A-380 was designed to fit in an 80m box and I'm sure Airbus Industrie did their homework before embarking on this project.
JoeBloggs,
just as a detailed point, loader-manufacturers FMC and Air Marrel are both working on A380 upper-deck designs. Just like Goodrich and AirCruisers are fighting like cats over the upper-deck evacuation slide contract - indeed just like half the world's aerospace industry is engaged in A380-related contests.
As a more general point, the major aiports of the world have been queueing up for some time now to stress that they can take the A380, not that they can't, which would be a competitive disadvantage. The whole point about the business case for the aircraft is that it makes sense linking a small number of key international gateways.
Your suggestion that Airbus hasn't been talking to airport operators is too silly to merit rebuttal. We're talking about a $13 billion risk here!
I'm very definitely not paid to defend the A380 or any other type, but it's hard not wade in occasionally.
Noddy Staltern
30th Apr 2001, 21:34
To answer the original question, yes, the announcement was expected. Virgin signed up for 6 380s with 6 options at the end of last year. As far as on-board entertainment is concerned, it remains to be seen what the final product will look like. Virgin already has a bar area for Upper-Class passsengers on the 747s - this is likely to continue on a bigger aircraft.
Wot abart airships then??
No airports needed, plenty of walk about space, a cabin to sleep in and a bathroom to wash in and a proper, sit down dining room and dancing after dinner.
Now here's a thought. London/New York in 36 hours or Sydney in 3 days.
Ahh Zeppelin.......