citation bravo

[south coast]

could yo please tell me if the citation bravo counts as a multi pilot airplane?

thanks

[Flintstone]

Yes, it does.




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(Full stops included because the BB software won't allow a succinct answer).

[south coast]

thanks freddie...

[Whaledog]

MAYBE...... Captains can get a single pilot rating on the citation.
The cessna is very easy to fly. piston twins are harder.
Its name says it all " Near Jet"
( And yes i'm typed, with time.)
Its a nice a/c for its mission.

[Flintstone]

No maybe about it. While a single pilot rating is possible this involves minor adaptation of the a/c, moving of some cb's etc.

The way it comes from the factory makes it a two-crew aircraft, at least on the UK register.

If you've a type rating southcoast you can log the hours. If it's adapted to single crew and you've been along as teamaker, you can't.

Hope this helps.

[south coast]

i tell you why i ask...just curious if it could be used a my first multi pilot type to unfreeze my atpl.

i know about the 500 hours multi crew time too...

[His dudeness]

The Bravo is the C550B, part of the TYPERATING C500/550/560.
Typerating nowadays means 2 pilot aeroplane.
The single hand C550 is the C551, a CLASSRATING (C501/551)

The 551 is the original Citation II with MTOM 12500lbs (downgraded from the 13800 of the original machine), marketingwise called Citation II SP (SP for Single Pilot, not Special performance...)

The Bravo has a MTOM of 14800lbs and is not downgradable to a 551 status (ASAIY)

[erikv]

JAR-FCL 1 contains lists of ratings. Class-ratings can be found in App 1 to JAR-FCL 1.215 (for JAR-FCL see http://www.jaa.nl/jars_npas/jars/451854.pdf) and type-ratings can be found in App 1 to JAR-FCL 1.220.
I don't know about the slight differences between all models, but under JAR-FCL all Citatios requie type-ratings (class-ratings are for multi-engine piston, Cessna single-engine turbine or Pilatus single-engine turbine for example). If you'd like to know more about the differences you might search online for type-certificate data sheets.

Erik.

[His dudeness]

erikv, check page 1-F-11 (91 on that document), you´ll find the C501or C500SP,C551 or C550SP , C525 as a CLASS RATING...

The Bravo is the C550 B - TR

[erikv]

HD,

I don't see any mention of the phrase class rating on that page. I do see it referenced as appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.220 however, which is titled: Type ratings (A).

Class ratings are described in JAR-FCL 1.215 and a list of class ratings can be found in JAR-FCL 1.215.

[His dudeness]

erikv,
you are right, it´s not mentioned as a class rating (1.220 rather than 1.215)...however, and this is strange, I am a CLASS RATING INSTRUCTOR and EXAMINER for the KingAir 90/99/100/200 and the C525, and I lost the 501/551 - which I held in my old German ATP as C500/501/550/551/560 - Rating - because I did the checkride on a 550 and this is a Typerating.

[erikv]

Just another national variant of what should be internationally identical regulations, I gather...


Erik.

[ssg]

Can't speak for non-US stuff..

Only the Citation family of corporate jets has single pilot certfied models. Those are the Citaiton 501SP, Citation 550 SP or IISP

That means an appropriately rated pilot gets a type rating in these aircraft and he can fly single pilot. He is limited to under 12,500 lbs Max gross, just like Part 23 aircraft. Which for instance is a Citation Jet also, two pilot BUT the pilot can get a single pilot type rating for the CJ, which on his license says CE525S, designating he has shown proficiency to fly single pilot. The CJs are the only ones that a pilot can get this special single pilot type rating that is perminent. But they are limted to 12500, being Part 23.

Now if you want to move up in the world, fly more people, fly faster, fly higher and still fly single pilot, you can do what I do..

The single pilot exemption is a just that, an exemtpion from the Part 25 rule requiring two pilots. So if you want to fly a say a Citation Ultra, Max gross of 16500, with 10 people in back, doing about .76 at 45,000, then you have to get a type in the CE500 series with a copilot, differences training in the Ultra, in that sim too, then you get to spend another fun filled week in the box doing it all again by yourself, only to take the ride in a real airplane with a real FAA guy. Bust the ride, and you come back in like a month and do it all over again, hence a high failure rate.

The FAA isn't crazy about guys like me sitting at FL45 with 10 pax in back, but the record speaks for itself no accidents with a pilot with an exemption...EVER. The program has been around for about 20 years, when the first Citation IIs came out. Only about 500 pilots have ever had this rating, and only about 100 or so are current a year. The rating expires every year, and every year you take an honest to god by yourself check ride(circling hand held approaches, raw data ect) to prove yourself good for another year. As well your flight hours have to be submitted to the FAA, usualy via flight logs, so Cessna can track the hours, accident rates, training failures, ect..

Remember to not mix up a CJ pilot with a pilot with an exemtpion, two different animals, the later taking a special single pilot checkride every year vs a type then typical non checkride type reccurent training.

Just respond to Whales comment on near jets and props being tougher to fly ect, is a typical knee jerk, not having done it response. Anyone who flies single pilot will tell you that flying a slow aicraft on a SID at 250 kts, at 5000 feet a minute climb is much tougher then flying the same SID at 160kts and 500 feet a minute. Things happen faster in faster planes, you have to be much further ahead of the aircraft. Anyone who actualy flies in the soup for a living knows this.

Also sitting single pilot at FL450 waiting for a window to blow out, closure rates of .75 and .86 RVSM airspace requires just a tad more focus then flying along at 230 kts in a tprop at FL230, never having donned an O2 mask in years. You have V speeds to think of in jets, pressurization issues, faster ref speeds ect.

Anyway, the Bravo can be flown single pilot if you get the exemption. Nice plane by the way, decent range for it's size.

[His dudeness]

Quote SSG:
ust respond to Whales comment on near jets and props being tougher to fly ect, is a typical knee jerk, not having done it response. Anyone who flies single pilot will tell you that flying a slow aicraft on a SID at 250 kts, at 5000 feet a minute climb is much tougher then flying the same SID at 160kts and 500 feet a minute. Things happen faster in faster planes, you have to be much further ahead of the aircraft. Anyone who actualy flies in the soup for a living knows this.

True to a certain extend, BUT having an engine failure after V1 its just the other way around, sitting in the CB instead overflying it its the other way round etc.
So there is 2 sides to it and I would rather fly a Ultra SP than a KingAir, or worse a Seneca or the like....
The fact that you are faster just means that you have to prepare better - and usually the Ultra has a neat little EFIS plus a FMS and an Autopilot that actually works plus EGPWS and TCAS most likely, equipment that really helps doesn´t it ?

[pilotbear]

I quite agree. Having done both.
The people who make comments like that have never done it. :* You try flying a Cessna 310 on your own in the middle of the night in the CB's in icing and rain and turbulence. Looking out of the window to see blocks of ice where the tip tanks should be, auto pilot taking regular tea breaks without notice. Then ATC at your destination tells you that the radar controller has gone home, and the only approach is a procedural NDB. :uhoh:
Knowing you have to keep going because you have a heart and lungs on ice in an IKEA picnic box in the back.
That gets your attention, not sunbathing at FL410:cool: