ASCOT ops love or hate

[u/sagain]

I'd like to know what people think about ASCOT ops. Do you belive they solve problems, or make problems

I belive they solve a lot of problems

do you? :ok:

[BEagle]

When I was first on the FunBus in 1984, I was taught to stand on my own two feet when 'down route' - and to check in with Ascot Ops whenever I arrived at my overnight stop. Didn't matter whether that was Block 101 in Akrotiri or the Royal Hawaiian - phone Ascot Ops, give them the info and the contact no.

But then came that inadequately testiculated little git (now out on redundancy - good riddance!) who didn't understand that OpCon rested with Ascot Ops when down route. So captains then had to check in not only with Ascot Ops, but also with Stn Ops and the pointless sqn 'Duty Auth' - some legacy of the PTC/FJ world who served only to erode the traditional AT/AAR Captain's authority.... Bloody nonsense.

When overseas trips had an element of flexibility, things weren't so bad. But towards the end of my time on the ancient FunBus it was obvious that the beancounters were leaning on the itinerary writers and the schedules they insisted upon just wouldn't work, given the abysmal serviceability we had at the time - a legacy of the idiot Kelvin Rucksack who had ruined the engineers' morale by splitting them from the aircrew sqns. (Rucksack has now also left on redundancy - no loss.) So we were being pulled in all directions by impossible itineraries, poor serviceability and ridiculous micromanagement.... Add to that the lowering of manning levels at Ascot Ops and the advent of the useless Phone Answering Branch and things went from good to not so good to appalling in a very short space of time. A proven system totally wrecked by complete idiots.

With sufficient staff, reasonable itineraries and no interference from sqn micromanagement, there is no reason why Ascot Ops shouldn't do the good job it did in the '80s and early '90s. I trained my student captains to look after themselves and to work with Ascot Ops when away from base, it's just a pity that other people always wanted to stick their worthless oars in....which eroded much of the authority of both Ascot Ops and the AARC cell when one was down route.

[cazatou]

I am rather hesitant at being the first ( Damn - Beagle beat me to it --- amend to second) to reply on this post; because I went in the '96 redundancy scheme; however here goes:

In my experience as a VIP Captain we told them of a change of requirement and what we proposed,to accommodate the revised requirements of our Pax, to do. Almost invariably our proposals were agreed.

If, however, you present them with a problem and expect them to come up with a solution - then YOU have a problem. Command, Group and Sqn Supervisors will have to discuss the way forward and agree a plan - by which time you will be out of crew duty time.

Ascot Ops are there to help you - but you must help them to help you.

[SVK]

.....Being unable to contact them whilst in Banja Luka because it was shift change and they'd taken all the phones off the hook was a cracker!


.....Suggesting to them that because the bad weather over Bardufoss was going to last for at least 3 days and the contamination would last 4 days, we could simply delay the route for 4 days. Instead we 24hr delay every day for 3 days, pitching up at 0500L - waiting till Bardufoss opened before telling Ascot it was exactly as predicted.

.....A couple of non-specific incidents such as:

Ascot: "Sorry, although you were Transoped A to B via X, there's no Dip Clearance. You are now cleared A - B"
Crew: "We can't"
Ascot: "No, no you can, we've cleared it"
Crew "The Aircraft cannot physically travel that far without refuelling"
Ascot: "We'll get back to you"
Hang up.
Crew: "Numpty"


And other such gems


Edited to add:


Though I do understand that it must be hard for them to try and grasp each individual Tasks specific problems from half a world away. IMHO I just sometimes think that when an aircraft Captain needs an instant answer to an immediate problem and gets a,"We'll let you know;" then it is insuffient.
Perhaps a bit more haste and a bit more willingness to make instant, though difficult decisions - even if it means having to justify them later. Rather that than waiting until your immediate superior comes back from lunch to give their approval.

[M609]

Not aircrew, and not in the RAF, but......

Ascot ops is a given caller about 2 seconds after arriving at work at 05:00Z every winter morning. (Clue: Work at the cold place outlined above)

"What kind of breaking action can we expect at 14:00Z"

.....I dunno, ask the man upstairs that supply the snow......I'll tell you at 13:55....


"When did RRR4418 depart"

...look at the dep message you got 1 hr ago, but........

"When did RRR4418 depart" (3 min later)

......told your colleague 3 minutes ago..... :O



Some of my collauges think that the ladies at Ascot Ops sound good looking, but I want proof! :E :E

[Razor61]

"We have so and so freight, and Oh by the way, Foxtor oscar!"
:E :ok:

[Tonkenna]

They do a job that no one wants to get posted into and are under a lot of pressure to get things sorted. Personally I have found them most helpful, and if you present them with a sensible solution to your problem(bearing in mind you useually have an easier time as you only have one problem on your hands) they will, 99% of the time, go with it. Yep, things get fouled up... but hey doesn't that happen to us all at some point.

Tonks

[buoy15]

cazatou

I was very fortunate to be a Maritime Capt.
If and when I had a problem, airborne or detached, I told Gp of my problem, situation, weather, fuel state, serviceability and intentions, leaving little room for a pissing contest, and if they didn't get get back to me by return of post, ( 10 mins) I would execute my command, regardless, knowing I had the backing of my Sqn Boss and CO.

You give me impression that truckie Capts have no authority or clout

So, where does the non-existant "Air Support Command" with it's 'Operational or Overseas' Training (ASCOT) title feature in today's modern airforce

As an aside, ASCOT C/S's get right up operational people's noses

[Yeller_Gait]

buoy 15,

Just let them get on with their job. Ok, occasionally we had to put up with using an Ascot callsign for an overseas, but to be honest, it was a better callsign than using one of our Rafair xxxx crap callsigns, or worse, at least people knew we were RAF.

I agree though, it is much easier, and better, to organise yourself your own life, rather than rely on any kind of ops personnnel to organise your life for you.

[Lockstock]

As an aside, ASCOT C/S's get right up operational people's noses

Please explain, I'd love to know why.

[Tonkenna]

buoy15

.I told Gp of my problem, situation, weather, fuel state, serviceability and intentions

Thats all Ascot Ops is... Group, so whats your point.

As an ex-Nimrod chap I can say that we do as much "operational" stuff within the Ascot fleet as you lot do, so don't come that cr@p please:rolleyes: Not really sure why the callsign should cause you any grief.

"operational people".... whatever keeps you ego up buddy:zzz:

Not sure why Ascot Ops causes so much bitterness... sometimes they aren't great, but most of the time they are helpfull and just let you get on with the job. In three tours using them I can count the bad times with ascot ops on my thumbs

[StopStart]

As an aside, ASCOT C/S's get right up operational people's noses

chiseller....

As for Ascot Ops...well, some good and some bad really, like any job. I always find that if you give them a problem and ask them to solve it they'll either not come up with anything or come up with something that you really don't want ;) Best bet, as said above, when faced with a problem down route is to come up with a workable plan and present it to them to a nice friendly way. Hopefully they'll be so pleased you 've come up with a solution that they won't notice that your plan involves coming home via Hickham, Darwin, Singapore etc rather than Goose Bay......

:)

[goldcup]

"operational people." Hahahahahahaha.

Yup, I'm sure the Ascot callsign really pisses off those receivers on trails, or the troops we carry back to their loved ones. I bet those operational folks REALLY hate the Ascot callsigns that bring them supplies, or on R&R trips. I'm sure they are incandescent with rage whenever the callsign is mentioned.

Trying desperately to think of all those non-operational tasks we've been doing recently.....

Nope, can't think of any.

Back in your box son.

[Roguedent]

As a relatively inexperienced truckkie, I have seen both the best and worst of Ascot in my short time. I think the thread should be 'Love and Hate'. Yes you sometimes have the 'Ascot Shuffle' at Brize, but once down route they are generally very good. Apart from shift change, but that affects all trades me thinks. Remember, its not just Ascot Ops that define the task. I have heard the 'ITOC' course at Brize is an eye opener for what goes on behind the scenes of 2Group and Ascot.

Now on to sledging!!:}

Buoy15,

As a experienced person (won't call you captain, it might make your already massive 'operational' ego explode) you of all people should know not to throw stones. Try telling the non-operational C17 boys they get up everyone's nose!!:confused:

As for you doing on your own, I have seen the consequences of people who think they know better than the big picture! It normally involves orbitting on a Turkish border waiting for Dip clearance, before being told NO!! :\ Then diverting to Cyprus, ringing said 'Ascot' grovelling a bit, waiting for the bosses comment that will involve a meeting without tea and biscuits, then once that is all over trudging to block 101, where the only accommodation has been taken over by a Herc crew (non-operational of course), who are out of crew duty as they had a non-operational Comp A out of Basrah. To top it all off, you go for a Kebab and some AVGAS F69 (coccanelli) at Chris's, to find the VC10 crew have filled the place out!:}

Most Captains put forward a workable solution to Ascot, and most of the time that suggestion is taken. If Ascot makes a cr@p decision, then so be it. At least the Captain isn't in the poo for leaving the pax waiting at Hannover, for a Jet which has just landed at Brize.

I am very fortunate that you are not my captain

Just nailing you in the box that golpcup put you in!!:)

[Stan Bydike]

Having dealt with both Northwood Opcon and Ascot Ops there is no real difference between the 2. As other posters have said, if you have a problem, present them with a solution as well as the problem and they will run with your solution.

The difference, in my perception, is that in the maritime world, Opcon is reacting during a flight to an immediate set of circumstances which the Captain has to inform them off. With Ascot they are looking at a longer term position normally generated between sorties.

As a former maritime captain :} I can honestly say that whilst going round in circles on the Malin Head or in the Swapps at silly times, my only reaction to hearing an Ascot callsign has been one of envy, or in in the case of a heavy C-130 at FL200, one of sympathy for the time it will take them to reach landfall to the west :D

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Well said Stan as this thread looked like turning into a p!!sin contest between the the fishing and working fleets:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Capt H Peacock]

During many years of dealings with them in the 80s and 90s I always found ASCOT Ops mostly harmless and usually pleasant. They were there to perform a political function, perpetuating the illusion that their airships at Why Hickham were exercising executive authority over all those damn truckers.

Conversations used to go something like:

'Hello Ops, this is ASCOT, I've blown a tyre in Ancona'

'Stand by ASCOT, . . . . ASCOT, from your operating Authority, you are to change the tyre'

[opso]

Admittedly, it has been some years since I last flew albert, having been stuck behind a desk for almost a decade now, but I was glad for ASCOT - they sorted the dip clrs (a job that I know has got much harder post 9/11), teed-up all the onward stops when we inevitably went u/s and provided a single number we could call any time of the day or night if we had a problem and needed some support from home. The biggest ops faff of a route was always getting away from Lyneham and that had bugger all to do with ASCOT and was a Stn concern!

All it took to get a good service off ASCOT was to check in after each flight so that they could let us know if something went wrong beyond our fairly close horizon and spend a few minutes thinking of which solution we wanted to our problem and offering it up at the same time as the problem, as opposed to relying on them to figure it out. The way I looked at it, we were dealing with 1 task and they were dealing with about 40 (it was a bigger AT fleet back then!) so we had more time to figure out the best solution to our problem than they did!

At the end of the day, we were trying to do our job and they were trying to do theirs and we were both trying to achieve the same end goal. They were generally a good bunch with the odd dead-weight (much like ourselves). A little tolerance and understanding went a long way to making things run smoothly and I doubt that dealings with ASCOT are likely to be significantly changed since then.

Rodders: 'ITOC' course?

[BEagle]

"Hello, Ascot Ops, do you have a revised itinerary for me?"

"RevItin? Why? We've still got you due out at **00"

"We can't do that - the outbound hasn't even landed yet! What was its departure time"

"Err...don't kno...standby...err, it was due out at **00"

"Yes, I know what time it was supposed to take off, but what time did it actually take-off? Haven't you got the deprture message?"

"Um, err, err, it must be here somewhere....."

"Indeed it must. But there's only 30 min flex on this route for max CDT and if it's later than that, we'll either be stuck at Gander with 150 pax at midnight local, or else we leave here tomorrow at a time which maximises our CDT as we'll need to de-ice etc - and that could be a faff from here because they'll be busy just then"

"Oh. Err, what's your suggestion....."

Thanks team. I then phoned Brize to be told that the outbound was actually over 2 hours late off due, predictably enough, to yet another serviceability snag...

Spoke to local DAMO and asked what'd happen to our pax if we delayed until early the next morning. "We'll keep them at their barracks" was the answer. So, as no-one was going to be inconvenienced by a midnight Gander-faff, we delayed until the next day.

Fine. Except the DAMO forgot that the arriving passengers were expected to use the same barracks accommodation - so our pax actually spent the night sleeping at the airport on floors various. No idea why the DAMO didn't find them an hotel. The first I heard of this was when Bwigadier someone or other complained to the AOC; there then followed a long, boring process of trying to pin the blame on me until the station told Group to knob off......

[opso]

Ever thought of applying to go on the 'Grumpy Old Men' TV series BEagle? ;)

Whilst you're tales (garnered from over long career) are always colourful examples, I doubt that they portray a balanced view of things. I suspect that for every aircrew tale of ops incompetence, ops have at least one regarding aircrew unprofessionalism...

[cazatou]

bouy 15,

If you read my post carefully then it should become apparent that there could be security implications, given the status of our Pax, in what I proposed.

If there was a problem in getting them to accept my proposals then mentioning the name of the Lady down the back usually resolved it.

[BEagle]

opso, read my earlier posts and you'll find that I am a supporter of Ascot Ops - if they are allowed to get on with their work without sqn interference and if they have adequately trained staff. Not just the Tippex Tracy Phone Answering Branch incompetents....

Grumpy Old Men was an excellent TV series, by the way!

[haltonapp]

I know I am an old git, but things were as bad or no better when that little grass airfield ran ascot ops. for those unfamiliar with life before High W, that was Upavon, we were lucky in those days comms were so poor that HQ staff were happy if you made any decision! Follow it up with a Fax if able was a common response. I know that now computer flight plans are the must have thing.
I do remember leaving Bangkok en-route to take the Foreign Sec to see the emperor of Japan. Prior to entering Taiwanese airspace Hong Kong said you have no clearance to enter their airspace. Staff officer to captain I can't understand it I wrote to the embassy in Beijing two months ago! I rest my case. I am sure the readers are better in informed on world politics than that staff officer.

[TOPBUNKER]

However,
When they were at said grass airfield they had a UHF radio.

They 'forgot' to equip the other place with it. When one got airbourne from any of the then AT bases one could speak to a controller "Man to Man" rather than playing Chinese whispers. If you needed, for instance to turn back for a spare E.G.(crap radar) or warn them that you were inbound for co-ordination it was much, much, bettter than digital comm's. or shouting at the pregnant misemployed girls at the HF place. (So long as the messages were appropriatley classified)

[Jock Pi]

Like all places, ASCOT has good guys and bad guys. Most are Flt Ops with little knowledge of AT. :\

However, IIRC there used to be a couple of aircrew mates in there who did have recent AT experience to help them out. It's never ideal, and I'm sure they have their own manning issues, just like the rest of us, but they do have sight of the 'big picture' :rolleyes: and not just our task.

From my experience, if you give them and a problem and a solution, you are likely to get your own way, but if you just give them the problem ...

[AsleepByMidhurst]

I would suggest that by and large, the problems with our newfangled ITOC do not exist within Ascot Ops, but within ITOC Task Plans, who seem to be intent on squeezing every last cost saving drop out of route operations.
The 16 hrs on, 14 hrs off cycle is becoming ever more regular and the Transop writers have become adept at scheduling a route to arrive back at base 143 hrs and 30 mins after first departing, lest the crew might qualify for a FREE DAY!
The result is that following any tech snag, movements delay or missing dip clearance (another Task Plans issue), the route becomes horribly delayed and often arrives back later than if some sensible flex had been built in in the first place.
The Ascot Ops controllers will try their best to recover the situation, but through no fault of their own are often lacking in experience. A good solution presented by the aircraft captain (without taking the pi$$) will often help them out.

That's my exercise for the day, I must go and lie down now.

[Bof]

Things clearly have changed a lot. In my days at Upavon, we had a pretty good bunch of guys in Ops. Nearly all controllers were ex truckie drivers, navs etc and most had a fair amount of AT experience having come straight from the squadrons and known to most. Same applied to Sqn Ldrs and Wg Cdrs. Because they had the "big picture", decisions were usually correct, although of course at the time we thought they were all idiots! As for comms, we always found the SSB gave excellent voice quality anywhere in the world, especially if Upavon pointed their aerial in your direction. Incidentally, the ASCOT callsign has been in use since about 1959/60.

[BEagle]

Ah, but Bof, that was when the RAF could afford to do things properly... The Phone Answering Branch (or Op Support Branch as they grandly call themselves) are not in the same league as the old Upavon Operations folk were.

Mind you, raising Artichoke wasn't quite as difficult as raising Cyprus Flight Watch. It was easier to raise the dead than it was to raise Cyprus FWA!

[Bof]

Beagle

Sorry about a quick departure from the thread, but reminds me of NF days at Malling, or should I say nights! We used to do PIs under control of Beachy Head GCI (c/s Testament at the time). Pete Bogue, well known 85 prankster calls Gorgeous Sounding WRAF Controller " Testicle, testicle this is XYZ etc etc". GSWC responds "Negative, negative, I say again Testament, Testament etc. PB "Roger Testicle etc " and so on. I think she gave up after about 5 minutes and had to be relieved.

[Rev I. Tin]

Gents,

Interesting reading. As I work at ASCOT I am most interested in what has been written and have taken on board some observations.

One point :

'The Phone Answering Branch (or Op Support Branch as they grandly call themselves)'

There are Pilots, Flt Ops (OSB), MALMS, Flight Operations Managers and FOAS in ASCOT Ops.

We endeavour to do our best. If that is not good enough for you, I suggest you come and spend some time at ASCOT, and learn something.

If you have a genuine grievance/query with ASCOT I will gladly explain/provide.

God Bless.

Rev I Tin.

[opso]

Rev, I may have spoken to you on the phone today!

I believe that all the ire at the Flt Ops pers there is somewhat undermined by the fact that there are 7 breveted staff there with, I understand, backgrounds in various large aircraft.decisions were usually correct, although of course at the time we thought they were all idiots! So what has actually changed?

[Lardy1]

AsleepByMidhurst -

Can't agree with your post, I'm afraid. Though not a TP myself, I have a fair idea of what their job involves and what constraints they have to work with. You, it would appear, do not. As ever, it is easy to criticise (especially anonymously and with no supporting evidence or real understanding of why things are done). I offer the following

1 'ITOC Task Plans, who seem to be intent on squeezing every last cost saving drop out of route operations.' - I wonder why they do that then? Almost as if they have been told to by someone who is concerned about the budget, and is therefore probably quite senior and therefore probably aircrew - as the 'phone answering branch' do not have anyone in that position.

2 'The 16 hrs on, 14 hrs off cycle is becoming ever more regular' - do you mean more regular or more frequent? This particular whinge has been brought up more than once over the past few years and without anyone producing the evidence to back it up.

3 '143 hrs and 30 mins after first departing, lest the crew might qualify for a FREE DAY'. This is just the Task Planners being bloody minded! We all know that there are far too many aircraft in the AT fleet just lying around at Brize/Lyneham with nothing to do. It would make lots of sense to hide them in sunny parts of the world for a few extra days. It's not like anyone will miss them!! Alternatively, if the timings overrun, the crew get the day off. If not, the aircraft can be used for something else. This is surely more flexible that always programming it not to get back

4 'or missing dip clearance (another Task Plans issue),' - Since when has dips been a Task Plans issue?? They do not apply for them and cannot create them. They can ask the dipclr cell to try to hasten them - and they do. But they cannot attach them to a transop if they have not been granted


Overall, the TPs and ASCOT do their damndest to make things work with very limited resources and ever moving goalposts. Many of the complaints here seem to hark back to the 'good old days' when ASCOT was staffed entirely by aircrew mates and therefore ran more effectively (allegedly). Of course, in those 'good old days' not only did we have the aircrew to spare to do the job, but we also had a bigger, better resourced AT fleet with more spare capacity and the bean counters (not to mention DTMA) did not have a stranglehold over everything. The Branch of (some of) the people filling the posts is not all that has changed.

If you pop into the TP office sometime, I am sure that they will dig out for you some of the itins submitted by Sqn training staff which have aircraft going to airfields which are not open/adequate, have illegal crew duty days, ignore crew rest rules, have insufficient time to obtain dipclrs etc etc. Of course, most of those do not get put into the public domain because the TP's and ASCOT are generally more concerned with sorting out the problems than in publicly rubishing their colleagues for doing their job.

[AsleepByMidhurst]

Lardy,
If you look at my post, you will find that I am not slagging off individuals in task plans, merely questioning the process as a whole. ( ie the effect rather than the cause ).

I have experience of both ends of the process and therefore understand the difficulties of both. My worry is that cost saving and aircraft availability are becoming more important than flight safety.

There are very few transaltlantic routes these days which dont involve a very punishing schedule of long days and short nights, which destroys circadian rythms. The sixth day of the route often follows a 14 hr 'day stop' in Newfoundland, which means that crews arrive back in the UK, often in crappy weather, at the lowest point of the fatigue cycle. Just because an accident hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean to say there is not one round the corner.

Engineering issues at base mean that aircraft very often suffer tech delays down route. Without any flex in the system, Captains often feel pressured to carry snags that they perhaps shouldn't. Whilst supervisors may have some role in preventing this, I have also seen some very experienced operators fall foul of this problem.

[Jock Pi]

Lardy

Everyone is under pressure, but there are several 'howlers' that regularly come out of the TP office, e.g. a aircraft tasked into an airfield at the weekend when it is shut, a 16hr Crew Duty Day when they are flying over 5 sectors. :\

Unfortunately, the majority of the transop writers are ex-aircrew, but one does have to question why they are ex? :suspect:

[flyboy007]

Oh wow,

And not to mention being tasked into a runway made of pavlova, without an exemption from the airport authority, and being told by TP that "it should be ok", or being tasked into a US Navy base which was too short. When (before we even left home base) we pointed out that we would be 25 tons short of our req'd gas lift to get home, and that there is a hhuuggee international 20mins up the road which was more suitable, we were told "Navy BASE"! Imagine our shock when the wind req'd didn't appear and we were unable to lift the gas, so flew 20 mins to the international to refuel.
Then there is the cutting down of turn around times allocated to make a long crew duty day fit. REDUCING THE TURN AROUND TIMES ON PAPER DOESN'T ACTUALLY MEAN IT WILL TAKE LESS TIME!!!

I'm sure they dodge some bullets up there, and solve their share of problems, but some things will never work, and pretending something works when it doesn't isn't a solution.

[BEagle]

We were consistently trapped between the demands of the Engineers who wanted something like 90-120 minutes for a full turnround (why?) and all their infernal paperwork - and the task planners who NEVER allowed long enough for turnrounds, particularly on an already tight Crew Duty Day. E.g. the time allowed for turning round an aircraft full of grunts at Gander in the dead of night on the Calagary - Gander - Brize runs.....

No doubt that's been sorted nowadays?






Oink oink, flap, flap......

[Jock Pi]

Beagle

The engineers want days not hours to turn aircraft round :ugh: but there's another issue...

[6foottanker]

As a baby Ascoteer, I have no real gripes about Ascot Ops to speak of, but for those of you still in a position to be at their mercy, the ITOC now run a 2 day course to familiarise anyone who wants it with their day to day running and set up. For info, speak to ITOC Trg and Standards at Brize. I'll be attending a week monday! Maybe then I can answer the Q with some authority!

ps can we have more time off in nice, hot, sunny places please Ascot! I didn't join to 'see the world', but it would be nice to see more of it than an airport in the dark, a hotel room and the inside of ANOTHER Hooters! :E

[grey_not_green]

hotel room and the inside of ANOTHER Hooters!

blimey, I didn't know that Basra had hotels, let alone a Hooters.......;)

[Cockney Geezer]

My favourite:

We're in MPA, with the plan for us to flag Recife for extra fuel, then to ASI (ASI weather was unusually bad and VORTAC was offline for a few months). We had no freight for ASI so Captain suggests Recife, nightstop, Brize. The Hamster wheel starts turning in Ascot Ops...

They then inform us that the dip clears we had were'nt actually valid (thanks for telling us before we left Brize) so we can't go to Recife (no dancing girls then!!). The suggestion was MPA - Dakar,nightstop, Brize, with the added gem: we've looked at the short plan and you'll have no problems getting out of MPA.

Capt: Reheally. (Ace Venture stylee) Well whats the total fuel required? We may not be able to lift enough from MPA.

Ascot: Oh, don't worry we know the almighty Tristar's got a MTOW of 245T, you'll have no problems

Capt: Errm, have you conisdered the weather at MPA? QNH? Temp? Down here that can affect our MTOW significantly!

Ascot: Errm what do you mean, no, mummy - 'flrmmggbrm' (brain farts and he goes cross eyed at the thought of having to apply intelligence)

Capt: Fax us the plan and we'll have a look for you!

Ascot fella then sighs relief, smiles like a child thats been assured that Santa is real, pulls himself onto the sofa and puts his thumb in his mouth, giggling at all the tubby-custard Tinky-winky is getting all over his belly on TV.

Luckily the pressure was relatively high at my favourite a$$hole end of the planet, so we could just lift for Dakar.

It amazes me at times that there are aircrew working there, surely they must have an idea? Surely?????


CG

[BEagle]

But it's not just the Ascot Ops folk......

When I was doing a spell in the Fuerza Aerea Malvinas Air Wing, yet again the mail didn't arrive from Blighty.... Some extremely pi$$ed-off teddies indeed, so we did some delving.

It transpired that the load control people had filled up the Timmy, so that when the crew did their calculations (very low QNH at Brize), the required trip fuel plus the ZFW put them over RTOW. Only solution - reduce the ZFW. So off came the mail...

We needed to sort this, because the rumour had spread that the 'TriStar crew had forgotten the mail'. Clearly bolleaux, but when people are stuck miles away from civilisation spuriously defending the Bennies from the Argentine hordes :rolleyes: , not getting the mail is a very big issue indeed.

But what had made it worse was that an earlier TriShaw had been days late as well due to late dispatch, poor weather in the Malvinas etc......

[propulike]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
decisions were usually correct, although of course at the time we thought they were all idiots!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So what has actually changed?

================================

Perhaps that the board that took up a wall in the old old ASCOT ops HQ has been replaced by the same information spread over several A3 sized computer pages? Although information is shared more easily using the electronic system, when you want overall SA sometimes 'The Big Picture' needs to be just that!

That and the people working there are simply chimps at times ;). A recent ex-Lyneham bloke who was very able when he was still here argued with one of our Captains about max take-off weight and range, refusing to believe that he couldn't carry the freight and the fuel until the correct jetplan was sent to him!!! Thank heavens for people like MALM G********e. At least when he answered the 'phone there was some practical help on offer.

[Voidhawk]

Though not having had the privilege of experiencing it myself, I do recognise some of the sentiments and tales on this thread in my father's "Rompers Green" cartoons. If anyone would like to acquaint, or reacquaint, themselves with the series, they are all available at www.rompersgreen.com (http://www.rompersgreen.com)

-MFK

[EESDL]

After a typically farcical display by ASCOT's Telephone Answering Branch, I returned to Blighty to charge them with Sabotage.

Wilfully Disrupting Military Ops etc etc

Boss didn't like that charge so subsequent report was diluted to a case of 'poor communications' blah blah

Bull, each telephone request to Ascot Ops was followed by a fax to confirm plans etc, there was no excuse for their lack of AT support - only the fact that the incumbents were negligent and would have been dismissed if they were working in 'civvy' street.

Talking of 'civvy' street, ain't it great!

[WSO1]

Love them so much I married one of them...:ok:

[bwfg3]

Mike, Did ascot ops ring you before or after you ripped the sliding door off the hire wagon?:ok:

[opso]

6foottanker

How was the course then? Was it worth it? Are you in a position of suitable authority as you expected?

[WorkingHard]

I am intrigued by something in the table in Hansard; ZH880 C130J Mk5 Apr 99 675 1,317. 600 hours in 6 years does seem odd and even more odd (to me without the Herc experience) is why so many landings and so few hours? Please explain any one. Thanks. WH

[Stan Bydike]

WorkingHard,

Trials aircraft, that's why

[Circuit Basher]

From UK Serials (http://www.ukserials.com) (link courtesy of the immensely shy Boss Eyed!! :D), it gives:

Airframe SNo 5478
ZH880 Hercules C5
First Flight 12/04/1999, ex N73238
Delivery Date Boscombe Down 22/04/1999

HTH

[Jock Pi]

ASCOT Ops? - Hate, simple as that.

The sooner the telephone answering branch are replaced by aircrew the better IMHO. Rumour has it that it won't be long!!

[Rev I. Tin]

Jock Pi,

Don't sit on the fence, do you?
Like to know the rumour about being replaced by some aircrew mate. Surely they aren't going to wheel the MALM I replaced in again. Leave the old fellow alone!
I think you will find that ASCOT is slowly losing its aircrew mates to Flt Ops/TG 9. Judging by some of the posts delving back into the good old days before Flt Ops, looks like we can't do much worse (absolutely no disrespect intended to the current ASCOT aircrew mates).
Most grateful you could back up your 'Hate, simple as that' with a recent example or two.
Probably give you a few 'Aircrew, bloody awful' examples aswell. Then again, as always, it's always the odd one or two who spoil it for the rest.

Oh and for those who know me at ASCOT, what a week (or two) to go on leave, eh? How's the aircon coping? :E

God Bless

Rev I. Tin

[2port]

I'm with you bwfg3, it was the door, the whole door and nothing but the door. Most amusing it was too.
2P

[bwfg3]

Im sure that my memory was of the whole door being dislodged. In fact it was as big a mess as Scroggs glasses in MPA after he "headbutted" A mess cannon projectile during a corridor party!
" Go on, fire it at me, I'll hit it with me baseball bat":}

[Grum Peace Odd]

Agree totally Jock Pi. From what we're hearing across the road, the idiots will be thrown out when ASCOT Ops is subsumed in to Brize Ops and the savings of chopping them will allow aircrew to be put on the ops desk to manage both DOC jobs in one (and still only work half as hard or as long as on sqn). From what I hear if OC Ops gets his way ASCOT will die a death in the new year, the non-flight non-ops buffoons will get binned and the ops clerks sent back to flight planning where they belong (there isn't a good looking one worth sending over here). And not a moment too soon in my view. Roll on getting pilots in there to do the job properly - just as long as PMA don't send me!

[OiOiOi Hoot Hoot]

Grum Peace Odd

and the ops clerks sent back to flight planning where they belong (there isn't a good looking one worth sending over here)

Cant comment on the looks of the "Ops Clerks" in ASCOT myself but hey you never see an ugly front ender do you ?? :yuk: :yuk:

All the females in this world aren't made of wood, the eyes aren't painted on, they don't cry splinters and most certainly don't bath in pledge when it comes to the winged master race. They cant help be drawn to the beautifully cultivated beer bellys, double chins and man tits that frequent Brize.

Glad to see that "Ops Clerks" have a rightful place in your eyes softlad :ok: :ok:

oh and does it hurt having your head shoved so far up yor own Ar$e?

[DK338]

Bu99er, hurumph, can't let this one go so yes I will bite.......

Whole reason I left the RAF was because of aircrew t0$$ers like Jock Tw@t and Grum Pieces.

When I was 'in' I loathed that condasending term 'Ops Clerks', in all my time in the RAF I never found a trade of 'Ops Clerk', plenty of AATC's/FOA's and OSM's/FOM's though.

I left the RAF I hating it and my job as the SNCO 'Ops Clerk' on a FJ Sqn doing a non job, 6 months down the line I now know that my 22 years in military aviation has been a monumental waste of time and effort. Thankfully now I am happily working as an Ops Controller for a cargo airline doing the job I should have been doing in the RAF in a far more challenging and rewarding environment the RAF could ever offer.

Don't slag off the peeps trying to do a job. Before you berate somebody have a hard look at the training and culture of your organisation and yourself too.

Train the Flt Ops troops properly, and by that I DO NOT mean a 3 day ITOC intro and then the standard RAF OJT numpty training package drawn up by an incompetent. Something meaningful like the FAA Flight Dispatchers licence would be a good starting point.

When you have self important and pompous aircrew hell bent on maintaining their status in concert with the morally and professionally corrupt ATC trade, who are responsible for training and development of FOA's and FOM's but choose to exclusively focus their energies on ATC, it's no wonder that people lack the tools they require to do the job and the motivation to succeed.

You're all a bunch of chisellers :E

[Pontius Navigator]

Ops Clerks

I will step gently in to the puddle.

Back in the mists of time it was Ops Clerks and no complaints. We had lots of clerks. Ops Clerks sat in Ops, Admin Clerks sat in the registry etc. Names change but many hang on to the old terms even when they never served at that time.

How to p*ss off the civilian admin is to call them Civil Admin. They have been Civilian Personnel for years but they are still admin wallahs.

The people that do the camp maintenance - some still call them PSA, others learn the name of the first contractor to take over and use that name for ever more.

There is no disrespect intended calling an assistant a clerk.

As for flight planning clerks - where there is one SAC working alone in FP handling notams, new docs etc, they can be working totally unsupervised and are that one essential person in the pre-flight planning phase for ALL flights. If they don't get the notams out or forward the latest docs then they are the weakest link.

Don't knock flight planning; don't take them for granted.

[KPax]

Reinventing the wheel, the main reason for moving the 'Sons of Fun' out of OPs was to get more aircrew flying. I worked in many an Ops Room wher some of the 'Aircrew' hadn't flown for over 10 years. Still not sure about the 'FOTS' (failed other trades), but give them a chance. Finally if you move the 'Ops Clerks' out of Ops who is going to, make the tea. display the NOTAMs, answer the phone, start your computer, finish your crossword and all the other things that FOA's do. If you want to go into Ops relinquish your Flying Pay.

[Snapdragon]

DK338 Quote "Whole reason I left the RAF was because of aircrew t0$$ers like Jock Tw@t and Grum Pieces".

Shouldn't that read "to$$ers" rather than "aircrew to$$ers" I hate to be picky but not all aircrew are arrogant wank$rs. This sounds like you have a chip on the old shoulder about aircrew fullstop. There is a VAST difference between FJ Squadrons and Truckie Squadrons. At Lyneham we had a pretty good relationship in all aspects when I was there. SD
:}

[DK338]

Snapdragon

Fair one mate, but my point was t0$$ers that are aircrew. Should have made myself clearer at the start.

PS. no chips here no point getting all worked up over status, life's too short. Do get w@nked off by pompous @rses though regardless of branch/trade/rank/inside leg measurement.:ok:

Brgds
DK

[flipster]

During Op Veritas, when trying to run an 8 ac AT det in the Omani desert on the back of a fag packet and with some bits and pieces left over from Exercise UN-Safe Sareera, my Ops staff comprised a very small number of superb Ops Support staff (all ranks), with the odd aircrew-mate thrown in.

They were from all over the RAF but mainly from Lyneham and Brize ATC and Ops. Without these stalwarts, the UK Mil Contingent in Afghanistan would have been left starved, thirsty and out of firepower. Our Ops were so short of staff (despite repeated requests for help), that we had to employ a retiring Nav to train up one lass to help de-frag ACOs/ATOs/daily SPINS and war-going NOTAM stuff. Mostly, however, the crews had to do this themselves - personally, I felt safer doing it that way, even if it took an age - but it could have been so much easier for the crews.

Nonetheless, the ops staff worked tirelessly for long shifts in extreme climates and in dire accomodation, with little or no support from the UK/Ascot Ops and without much reward save for knowing the airbridge to Kabul/Bagram was still running. Furthermore, I am sure they did it all again in Op Telic.

I learnt a lot about the resilience of the Ops Spt branch from that experience.

For those aircrew who are quick to decry your ops staff - most Ops Spt people are a fine bunch - just sometimes they lack the experience and training - which is no fault of the individual - it is the fault of the system.

It always seemed to me that at Lyneham, we had just got them 'up to speed' with AT ops, when they got posted away -B~gger!